Goats, Terrorists, and the People Who Love Them

Bina, I found your article very funny. Thank God for people with a sense of humor.
Danish

hi,tahmed32,
i like -if u have to part ways with the belief of ur parents.nodoubt religion
encourges us toexplore the thoughts of others and accept them as our own.this is the time we should come up with our own.seek a newer world.

i don``t mean going against Quran.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

sattar2 #62 Good luck to you as well. Despite our differences of opinion, I am sure you are a decent person and I wish you all the best.

Tahmed Sahib,

You ask if “Quran calls for repeat visits from prophets to keep humanity straight”. I have adequately explained this earlier with arguments from Quran. It would help if you argue on points that I have raised … that you continue to ignore.

Furthermore, your assumptions regarding end of prophethood are contradicted by Quran, and by reasoning and observation. This includes your suggestions that we “now” have common sense and therefore do not need prophets … that revelation and rationality belong to mutually exclusive domains … that prophets absolve people of their responsibilities … as well as “seal of prophethood” issue. I countered each of your point … but you have not commented. You only continue to restate your opinion on this issue.

You seem glad to see me “now” talking about Quran. Your sarcasm is incorrectly placed … and the joke is on you. I have been talking about Quran since my very first post on this board. Apparently you have not been paying attention.

You are merely restating your opinions that I havecountered from Quran and reasoning. But you have failed to admit this. There is a good chance that there will be nothing worth responding to in your next post also. If that is the case … I hope you’ll understand my lack of interest in pursuing this matter further with you. Good luck and best regards.

Asad

samirfs #59 I believe the walrus (in Lewis Carroll`s Through the Looking Glass) said the same thing as Kahlil Gibran, albeit more simply. The walrus and the carpenter, as you may recall, befriended some young oysters on the beach, and after a short walk with them, sat down and proceeded to dine on his oyster friends. When they complained of being eaten, the walrus (who had obviously read up on Kahlil Gibran) had this to say:

``I weep for you,`` the Walrus said:
``I deeply sympathize.``
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size,
Holding his pocket-handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.

``O Oysters,`` said the Carpenter,
``You`ve had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?`
But answer came there none--
And this was scarcely odd, because
They`d eaten every one.


;-)

forget about crying about bakra cutting in Eid

Celebrate a clean festival `basant` and dance and sing Raag Basant to the glory and praise of Hindu Raja Basant who started this one festival which has some genuine clean fun in it

If we understand these lines by Kahlil Gibran, probably we would do it in a more humane way;

``Then an old man, a keeper of an inn, said, ``Speak to us of Eating and Drinking.``
And he said: Would that you could live on the fragrance of the earth, and like an air plant be sustained by the light. But since you must kill to eat, and rob the newly born of its mother`s milk to quench your thirst, let it then be an act of worship, And let your board stand an altar on which the pure and the innocent of forest and plain are sacrificed for that which is purer and still more innocent in man.

When you kill a beast say to him in your heart: ``By the same power that slays you, I too am slain; and I too shall be consumed. For the law that delivered you into my hand shall deliver me into a mightier hand. Your blood and my blood is naught but the sap that feeds the tree of heaven.``

And when you crush an apple with your teeth, say to it in your heart: ``Your seeds shall live in my body, And the buds of your to-morrow shall blossom in my heart, And your fragrance shall be my breath, And together we shall rejoice through all the seasons.``

And in the autumn, when you gather the grapes of your vineyards for the winepress, say in your heart: ``I too am a vineyard, and my fruit shall be gathered for the winepress, And like new wine I shall be kept in eternal vessels.`` And in winter, when you draw the wine, let there be in your heart a song for each cup; And let there be in the song a remembrance for the autumn days, and for the vineyard, and for the winepress.``
-Kahlil Gibran

A good picture in Yahoo about American teenagers(specially girls) turning to being vegetarians.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/030218/168/3axw2.html&e=1&ncid=

sattar2 #54
I am glad that at least you are now talking about the Quran. Good. If I misunderstand the clear instructions of the Quran, then I would like to be corrected. If I truly believe that those Quranic instructions do not make sense to me, I would simply declare myself a nonmuslim. I would not bend and twist the meaning of the Quran, or merely ignore it, (as ahmedis as well as islamic extremists do) and still claim to be a muslim.

You are basically saying that the Quran calls for repeat visits from prophets to keep humanity straight. This is not what the Quran says, and you know that. All you are doing is avoiding this clear and obvious fact, and merely throwing back my conclusions about ahmedis back at me. I dont think we will get anywhere on this discussion where you have already reached your conclusions (namely, the one you were taught from childhood) and are not open to any discussion. Just remember this message (also from the Quran): if you have to part ways with the beliefs of your parents, you are free to do so. You must retain love and respect for your parents, but the responsibility for interpreting the Quran, and for doing it in an intellectually honest way, is yours only. No amount of clever arguments will lift that responsibility from your shoulders.

Ref desiscore #53

[It is interesting to learn that animal sacrifice has ever had any place in Hinduism,...]

Ask these guys exactly what the Vedic ritual called a yagna (and there are several kinds of yagnas) calls for in terms of animal sacrifice. Let them check with their local pandits and post the facts on Chowk.

[.... but I urge all sides to stop please this crude “your side kills more” fill-in-the-blank “than my side” nonsense. Your vehemence mars your rectitude like the blood on Bina’s books.]

Precisely why I correct my fellow Hindus when they start posturing on Chowk.

[Like a community of ostriches, those people who have education, means, or power in Karachi generally throw their heads under the sand, and their own blood-soaked hands in the air (1). No one I know in Karachi who does their own “qurbani” (2) fails to clean the blood off their own property. But the city is left as carrion.]

You should do what the Scots do: collect all the blood and make it into sausage; they call it black sausage, I believe.

Ref Car-up-on-Blocks #52

[The skin of Qurbani feeds whole leather Industry previously monopoly of Muslim now BRAHMINS have entered this trade !!!!!!!!!]

Not only that, the Brahmins are marrying your girls too. (Ask the Headshrinker if you don`t believe me).

This is the 21st century. Deal with it!

Tahmed Sahib,

I have negated from Quran the crux of your argument … that man “now” has enough sense to do away with the need for prophets. Quran clearly suggests that people in the past indeed had enough common sense … but were sent prophets for guidance nevertheless.

Similarly, your efforts to draw a contradiction between revelation and rationality are also negated by Quran.

You ask me … “what part of ‘do good deeds’ don’t you understand”? I have already responded to this … but here it is again. Look at the world around you. Evils that existed merely a few thousand years ago in human societies … remain very prevalent even today. Do you agree or not? If prophets were sent in the past … why are they are no longer needed?

The message of “do good deeds” has been emphasized by prophets as people became corrupt in the past. Question you must ask is … what part of “do good deeds” did these people not understand? Why were prophets repeatedly sent to remind people of their obligations? Please don’t tell me that they did not have common sense. The correct answer holds the key to the question you posed.

Furthermore, you seem to suggest that coming of prophets absolves one of his responsibilities. Quran here once again contradicts your assertions. Despite mentioning prophets … it puts each man’s burden squarely on his own shoulders. This again puts you at odds with the message of Quran.

It is worth mentioning that despite Quranic arguments that support continuation of prophethood … you have merely presented your opinion on the matter. Your assumptions are negated by Quran, as I have repeatedly shown. Your position here is no better than that of a narrow-minded mullah who ignores Quranic injunctions in favor of his own views and biases.

Finally, you invoke respect towards each other’s beliefs. This request of yours is very ironic … given that you declare me a non-Muslim while accusing me of twisting the words of Quran. You have maintained your position despite my counter arguments based on Quran, and your lack of ability to substantiate your claims. Sahib, stop behaving like a conceited, arrogant individual.

Read Quran with an open mind and don’t try to overrule the word of Allah based upon your biases. I have highlighted enough contradictions between Quran and your position here. Sahib, Titanic is going down … it is now time to abandon the ship.

Asad

Peace. Bina Shah’s well-written description of the details of slaughter during Eid-ul-Adha in Karachi is graphic and poignant. At least it was February in Karachi on this Eid. Bakra Eid in Karachi in summer is an even greater assault on the senses and on reason itself.

Shanti. It is interesting to learn that animal sacrifice has ever had any place in Hinduism, but I urge all sides to stop please this crude “your side kills more” fill-in-the-blank “than my side” nonsense. Your vehemence mars your rectitude like the blood on Bina’s books.

Salaam. Eid-ul-Adha remains Karachi’s annual bloodbath instead of merely its annual commemoration of Abraham’s fealty for at least two reasons: the median education level barely registers on the K-6 education scale, and Karachi suffers a critical lack of selfless leadership.

Not just an educated few. It will take education and brave leadership on a wide scale to make people accept the kind of changes needed to clean the blood off Karachi’s streets. Education must be the norm, not just a privilege. Too many of the educated and wealthy of Karachi use the same approach for Eid-ul-Adha that they have for facing every sad aspect of their country – they try to keep the blood and guts on the street outside. Like a community of ostriches, those people who have education, means, or power in Karachi generally throw their heads under the sand, and their own blood-soaked hands in the air (1). No one I know in Karachi who does their own “qurbani” (2) fails to clean the blood off their own property. But the city is left as carrion.

Admittedly, daunting is the scale of changing Bakra Eid in Karachi. Because of the sheer number of slaughters, the city would need careful planning on a much greater scale than Eid at the Hajj itself. A single site for the city would never be feasible, and existing slaughterhouses would have to be supplemented with large, perhaps numerous, temporary ones. But my point is that the political establishment is so self-interested that it would have no guts for the task. The religious establishment exults in the fervor of the day and has not the shame to reduce the day’s bloodiness.

Yet even with a cadre of selfless leaders the like of which I too rarely hear in Karachi, even if the current leaders did not squander the necessary resources, and even if they had a plan which could care for the city’s needs, there would likely be widespread and violent noncompliance. The uneducated masses would rather just do what their fathers before them had done – even if that is precisely the kind of “jahil” rationalization that Islam set out to destroy centuries ago and to which Abraham himself stood up so many more years before. Call that prediction elitist if you will, but it is the same reason that Muslims around the world sight the moon for every religious occasion but trust their “kafir” dayplanners for every other event in their lives (3, 4).

Eid Mubarak. Sadly it is Abraham’s “blind devotion” to which cleave the day’s celebrants, not his brave quest for reason. Imagine a world in which one billion Muslims celebrated the first revelation, “Iqra,” by fervently teaching and promoting literacy. But there is no Eid-ul-Aql. Until education has its day, Karachi under blood each year will sway.


**************************

Endnotes:
(1) Bina, the feasting during Eid is the part of your essay that literally makes the most sense to me, at least here in the States where the slaughter has been sanitized. Eid is a feast after all. The fact that so much meat can be eaten by eye witnesses of the circumstances in Karachi, though, confirms for me that most of the city’s residents are desensitized victims, another reason why change is so necessary.
(2) Qurbani – Funny, the word always makes me think of Zeenat Aman.
(3) I may catch hell from other Muslims on chowk for what I said about sighting the moon. But they cannot dignify the tradition to me by claiming that it is the literal father of the faith, our beloved Prophet, whom they emulate. He never chose to continue on any path of ignorance as we his inheritors have done.
(4) I, who once clove to my Macintosh, now rely on my worse-than-“kafir” Microsoft Outlook XP Calendar for all my holidays, Muslim and non-Muslim alike. So all things come to the profit of Bill Gates (May God Take his greed from him).

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

I think there are three issues involved here:

- The concept of eating meat
- The hygenic conditions under which sacrifices are made on Eid
- The correctness/incorrectness of the tradition of sacrificing on Eid

If a person eats hamburgers than he/she cannot complailn abou the concept of killing animals for meat. It would be quite hypocritical to do so.

This would leave his/her only issue to be the lack of hygenic situations under which sacrifices are done. In this case, he/she would be alright with the sacrifice, as long as it was done in US-type clean slaughterhouses. Such a person, cannot blame Islam for this tradition. They can only blame the government of the time.

The third group - a group into which I am slowly moving - questions the whole tradition of this sacrifice. Not becasue I don`t eat meat. Infact I eat quite a lot, and thus have no issue with animals being killed to feed us. The issue is slaughtering so many at the same time, and then passing out meat to the poor. I am not quite sure the amount of money that must be spent in Pakistan on this. But it must be hundreds of millions of ruppees. This means hundreds of millions of ruppees of prime meat is given to the poor. That seems like a good thing to do. But I feel it would be better to donate the money, in the form of charity, books, schools etc. to the poor. That could be utilized in a much better fashion by the poor.

As for the sacrifice part, I think on Eid, everyone should go to their local grocer and buy some lamb chops, worth the amount that a goat would have cost. If they really want to donate meat to the poor (and not books etc.), then they should buy lamb chops for the poor also.

sattar2 #49 I think we have already agreed to disagree on the question of whether muhammed was the final prophet. I believe he was, you believe he was not. Let us leave it at this. I have no desire to change your belief, and I think you will respect my right to my belief.
You say we need a prophet to guide us on religious matters, and provide the example of organic chemistry. Islam is not organic chemistry, nor rocket science. What part of ``do good deeds``, for example, dont you understand? And what part of on judgement day, ``your lips will be sealed and your hands and feet will do the talking``, and also that on judgement day ``God will ask you where are those you looked towards for guidance`` dont you understand? The fact, Sattar sahib, is that you cannot shun your individual responsibility by looking towards ordinary men to tell you these basic things.
The Quran says it is a book to make things simple. I think you should believe it when it says that.

Tahmed Sahb,

Quran never stated that divine revelations stopped with Muhammad. As I explained “seal of prophethod” means the most exalted prophet. I gave reasons to support this assertion … provided references … and pointed out arguments from Quran that support continuation of prophethood. Furthermore, I explained the context of the verse in question to support my interpretation of “khatam”. You did not bother to comment or to provide reasons for your interpretation … and merely kept restating your position.

I have come across several Arabic book titles and excerpts … where “khatam” is used to denote the high status of a person. You may ignore this … and pretend that “khatam” can only mean “last”. It would reflect narrow-mindedness on your part and failure to review and refine your understanding of Islam.

Allah has revealed Laws in the past … and sent prophets to judge and guide people according to these laws. People had common sense in the past also … but they went astray nevertheless … and Allah kept raising prophets for their guidance.

Why are prophets no longer needed for guidance? Consider a book on principles of organic chemistry. Despite having a book … and common sense … it would surely help a student to attend lectures to better understand the subject matter. Would you suggest … that since the book exists … and people now have common sense … lectures should be altogether eliminated?

Furthermore, if a professor lectures his students on principles of organic chemistry … does it make him and his students … something other than organic chemists. Obviously not! So if a prophet of Allah guides people according to teachings of Quran … does this make the prophet and his followers non-Muslims?

The reasons you are citing for interpreting “seal” to indicate “end” … are speculative and presumptuous. They lack firmness and do not appear to be well grounded. You seem to suggest that now … since man has enough common sense … he is no longer in need of divine revelation. This … is an opinion … and not an argument ... and is negated by Quran. Furthermore, you seem to see a contradiction between revelation and common sense. My understanding of Quran suggests otherwise.

Quran mentions nations of the past who were quite civilized … technologically and socially … to whom prophets were sent for guidance. Did these people not have enough common sense back then … and today … after merely a few thousand years … we have enough common sense to do away with the need of prophets? What is a few thousand years in the evolution of man … who has been in stages of development for billions of years … and will probably continue to evolve for billions of years to come?

Interestingly enough, the social ills that Quran mentions existed in these people of the past … are very much prevalent in the world even nowadays! If prophets were sent to rid societies of these evils back then … why are they no longer needed now?

Furthermore … divine revelation in no way contradicts one’s common sense. This fallacy seems to have its roots in the narrow-minded clergy’s portrayal of religious teachings … where prophets were lifted to the skies … people turned sticks into snakes … and so on. Such ideas do not have any Quranic basis … and are a product of human interpolation and imagination. Among other things, Quran emphasizes consistency of laws of nature, hints at evolution of man from pre-biotic organisms, extraterrestrial life, big-bang theory, water cycle, sub-atomic particles and more. It implores believers to exercise their intellect in order to understand mysteries of the world around them. Your comment that … in case of continuation of prophethood … “there will be no end to individuals seeking guidance in everyday life from divine revelation as opposed to common sense” … is incorrect and is very clearly contradicted by Quran.

Last time I proposed these arguments … you accused me of having no respect for science and logic. Furthermore, you accused Ahmadis of “hero-worship” of Mirza Sahib. Those were indeed immature, incorrect, and baseless statements of yours. It would help if you refrain from making such brash comments this time around.

I have given adequate reasons for my understanding … that Quran supports continuation of prophethood. While you may disagree … you certainly cannot rightfully, intelligently accuse me of “twisting” Quran and deriving guidance from some source other than one endorsed by Quran … and declaring me a non-Muslim on such grounds. Such brash verdicts put you in the same category as the conceited, narrow-minded mullahs … and will eventually shortchange you … more than others.

Asad

harimau #42 I think you missed the point of my post.

#
46

M SOUZA

Northern India is the widest part of Peninsula.Tripura to Amritsar is thousands of miles & millions of Hindus in diffeent shades along the Ganga to Brahmaputra .You as christian never seen Durga Puja with hacking of Buffaloes or in Kali Temple of Kalihghat Calcutta goat hacking .But what that has to do with inhumanity of any religion.If a religion allows you to eat meat it allows you to hunt it or kil it .Besides what is so goody goody about vegeterians when they eat a plant that cant fend itself by even running ??

harimau

So you have come across similar scenes in India as you say. I was born and brought up in North India so I have never been aware that there are exactly similar sacrifices taking palces in hinduism too because this doesn`t happen in the Northern part or maybe not even in any other part of India. But if it happens (to what ever lesser scale) then even that is no good in these modern times.

I would however say that the difference is:

1. Only a very small part of a `particular sect` of Hindu community may still following the practices of sacrifice etc.

2. So, it doesn`t apply to the whole Hindu community or the all of India. For this reason, I never came across such atrocious sites as blood flowing on the roads or kids rejoicing the sight of bakara hanging from the tree or butchers running around with blood-stained clothes.

3. I am sure the scale and magnitude of sacrifice by these few Hindus would definitely be much lesser compared to the enormous feasting and celebrations of Bakr-Eid by the whole country (Pakistan in this case). You can compare Eid celebrations of Pakistan with Diwali or Holi of India but not these few silly sacrifices made in some remote part with the nationwide rejoicing of bakr-eid.


2. Again, this practice (if at all still prevailing in some particular Hindu community) is being abandoned slowly as pointed out by hari. It definitely should be.

So, no point comparing the two. They are nowhere similar.
Anyway, if Muslims do like Bakr-eid and truely think that this is a festival of supreme sacrifice, something sacred, then let it be. CArry on. We all have a right to believe in what ever we want to.

I can certainly relate to this scenario.

Some of us love the barbeque after the slaughter but find it

difficult to stomach some of the events of the day.


Ras

#37 harimau

Re Kali Temple:

I used to go every friday in the 70s. Now when I went in 2000, they have
stopped the goat sacrifice.

What it means, a religion and the people need to grow up/mature. I was happy to see that. I hope a similar transformation in Islam happens.

#33 D Souza:

Think about it. A ``Good`` muslim would go to heaven and be granted
72 houris, wine, boys which is considered ``sin`` in this world.
So by allowing ``sinning`` in ``heaven``, then according to cause/effect, one would expect a muslim to be born back in earth(hell).

A religion needs to be dynamic and I see that lacking in Islam, which I feel is boxed in. You are not allowed outside the box. It is a ``tortured`` religion.

The only redeeming thing about Islam, is that when muhammad calls to protect trees/plants, which is eco-friendly and that is cool.

Ref tahmed32 #41

[I am defining a muslim to mean any individual for whom the source of divine messages is the Holy Quran. For Ahmedis, there is more than one source of divine messages: namely the Quran AND ``wahi`` as conveyed through Mirza. It is for this reason that I think Ahmedis form a different religion than those who focus on the teachings of the Quran only.]

Are Mormons Christian? If so, why aren`t Ahmadis Muslims?

[Third, most important, I think we should place the entire issue in perspective: the Quran recognizes that there are different sources of divine revelation. ....HOWEVER, the Quran does say that divine messages stopped with Muhammed (the famous ``seal of prophethood`` phrase that you and I have discussed and agreed to disagree on in the past). The issue then becomes: does the Quran consider this ``seal of prophethood`` to be an issue of substance or one of detail.
I happen to think it is an issue of substance for the following reason: unless a seal is put on prophethood, there will be no end to individuals seeking guidance in everyday life from ``divine revelation`` as opposed to common sense. This is exactly what has gone wrong in Islam: individuals ignore common sense and ignore the simple message of the Quran (which is about values and knowing what is right and wrong, first and foremost) and look towards mullahs and aalims and suchlikes for guidance.}

Isn`t it precisely those who believe in the finality of Prophet Muhammad who are calling themselves mullahs and aalims and provide guidance? That being the case, one would think that a new prophet is precisely what Islam needs for reformation, particularly when any attempt at modernizing Islam is thwarted by the mullahs as blasphemy.

Bina,

Nice to see that you have grown up on chowk. Your posts are no more, feudals are bad, mushy is corrupt etc., it is rather expose on the reality of pakistan, not the generalisations, but the basic elements that corrupts the society.

The desensitisation of blood and killing sis in tune with pak school books about the superiorutt of pakistanis and islam, and is consistant with the jihadic message. When the indian p[atrol in the kargill were captured and mutilated by the jihadists, many wondered about the pak mind set, now it all makes sense. I remeber urstruly, islam is a code conduct for all aspects of life. You articale talks of the early training, for the children, from the most importanr festivity of islam in pakistan.

I have lived amongst the muslims all through my young days, we have never heard of the goat sacrifice by the muslims. Pakistan isa true islamic country, there are times when one has to thank jinnah for making the darwenian choice available to the indian muslims.

sattar2 #36 Let me try to explain where I am coming from.
First, all religions (a) share a common essence (i.e. belief that there is more to things than what we see in everyday life, and this generally includes a common Creator) and certain universal values, and (b) vary in the details, most notably in terms of their source of divine message.
Second, I am defining a muslim to mean any individual for whom the source of divine messages is the Holy Quran. For Ahmedis, there is more than one source of divine messages: namely the Quran AND ``wahi`` as conveyed through Mirza. It is for this reason that I think Ahmedis form a different religion than those who focus on the teachings of the Quran only.
Third, most important, I think we should place the entire issue in perspective: the Quran recognizes that there are different sources of divine revelation. The Quran considers them to be no different in substance, and that in any case we should not try to judge between them.
HOWEVER, the Quran does say that divine messages stopped with Muhammed (the famous ``seal of prophethood`` phrase that you and I have discussed and agreed to disagree on in the past). The issue then becomes: does the Quran consider this ``seal of prophethood`` to be an issue of substance or one of detail.
I happen to think it is an issue of substance for the following reason: unless a seal is put on prophethood, there will be no end to individuals seeking guidance in everyday life from ``divine revelation`` as opposed to common sense. This is exactly what has gone wrong in Islam: individuals ignore common sense and ignore the simple message of the Quran (which is about values and knowing what is right and wrong, first and foremost) and look towards mullahs and aalims and suchlikes for guidance.
At least this is my point of view, and you may agree or disagree as you wish, and I wish you all the best in either case.

Ref m_souza #26

[The scenes of blood all around with dead animals hannging from the trees..I can`t even imagine such scenes..at least not in India. I wonder what do Indian muslims have to say abt it?? Can any Indian muslim answer me how much of blood-bath they have on Bakr-eid...becasue I don`t remember having seen anything so horrific in India.]

Let me go back to my childhood in deepest Tamil Nadu. On one of the festival days at the famous Murugan temple in Tiruchendur, I remember seeing truckloads of dead goats being hauled back from that place to various nearby towns and cities. Never saw that on any other day but just once every year. The Sangilikkaruppans and Sudalaikkannus of Tamil Nadu continue their bloodbaths of goats and chickens at the shrines to Mariamman. Only nowadays at Samayapuram near Trichy, where the Rationalists of Tamil Nadu worship small-pox as Goddess Kali (this can be rationalized under the Rationalist Belief System because they are worshipping Nature in the form of small-pox; I expect that Doctor Artist Leader does not allow his grandchildren to be immunized against polio because polio is also Nature and ought to be worshipped) you go to the counter and pay up x rupees for a goat or y rupess for a chicken and the actual slaughter itself doesn`t take place but the vows of the devotees to sacrifice an animal are considered fulfilled. As it is Samayapuram stinks to high heavens and the last thing it needs is the fly-blown carcasses of dead goats adding to the stink and spreading some other disease like cholera for which the Maasanamuthus of Tamil Nadu will erect another temple and offer sacrifices, which will cause more diseases for which there will be more temples.... ad infinitum.

I also have seen goats being sacrificed at the Kali temple in Calcutta. I don`t think I visited that temple more than once.

Never generalize about India from your personal experience. We have all sorts of weirdness running rampant there.

Ref m_souza # 33

[I really thank God I am a Hindu and thank God my ancestors did not convert (like many other hindus did in the subcontinental history). .....

(But I do secretly believe I will go to heaven as I have not harmed anyone, not taken any creatures life)]

Just because you are a vegetarian doesn`t mean all Hindus are. I am sure vegetarians by choice are probably no more than one-third of Hindus. Quite a few more might not be able to afford meat except a few times a month and forced into vegetarian habits due to economic circumstances.

Tahmed sahib thinks everything that others write is dumb while he is the smart one. Fact is ...he hasn`t got a heart to read anything that goes against his community. Truth hurts him

I don`t believe in hell or heaven anyway. My comments are to instigate you guys.

Tahmed Sahib,

You do not have the heart to discuss whether Ahmadis are Muslims or not … but continue to make malicious, incorrect statements against their understanding of Islam.

At times you have accused Ahmadi-Muslims of hero-worship of Mirza Sahib and twisting the meaning of Quran. When asked to explain, you told a few ill-timed jokes … and shied away from providing basis for your claims. All this … while claiming to be a respectful, rational individual … with a disclaimer of “no disrespect towards Ahmadis”.

Such behavior is rather low and demeaning … and not the mark of a civilized person.

You emphasize the Islamic message of civility and respect towards others … but then go on to declare others non-Muslims over differences in interpretation. I follow Quran according to my understanding. For this, Allah calls me a Muslim, while you insist on declaring me a non-Muslim. Your position reeks of egoistical pride and arrogance.

Take a dose of humility Sahib … and stop worrying about the treatment of Ahmadis at the hands of other Muslims. Allah is our Protector and Guardian … and we’ll be alright. However, do realize that there is no need for us to kick each other out of the circumference of Islam. This religion may be shared respectfully between dissenting individuals … without the absurdity of “fatwas of kuffr”.

Asad

sattar #31 Given the criminal manner in which Ahmedis have been treated by religious extremists, and the shameful manner in which the government has condoned this behavior, the issue of whether Ahmedis are muslims or not is one that I do not have the heart to discuss. I have as much respect for Ahmedism as I have for all other religions. I am not saying that you will be denied admission in heaven And indeed many Ahmedi people I know are first rate individuals, and I sincerely respect them as such, while many of their worst critics who happen to be sunni muslims like me are among the worst kind of individuals I know.
You and I have discussed this matter earlier, and I think we can agree to disagree. With no disrespect meant.

m_souza #33 you wont be denied admission to heaven on account of being a hindu. You will be denied admission, nevertheless, on account of writing really dumb posts on chowk. They wont take you in hell either. You are doomed to forever be in limbo, forced to read you chowk posts over and over and over for all eternity...

I really thank God I am a Hindu and thank God my ancestors did not convert (like many other hindus did in the subcontinental history). At least it is not compulsory for me to kill anyone year after year.I prefer to be called a coward than be a butcher or a `haiwaan`..scaring innocent animals.

I could never bear the sight of so much blood...so much pain to other
creatures in the name of religion. I can never believe in this `belief` that God would be pleased if we mercilessly slaughter His creations. Some people might believe I won`t go to heaven if I am not a muslim. But I prefer hell after my death than to live in a perpetual hell while I am alive.

(But I do secretly believe I will go to heaven as I have not harmed anyone, not taken any creatures life)

very upsetting ...
I dont know what to think of the article. The logical me wants to denounce the tradition..but the muslim me.. can`t bear that thought..

Tahmed Sahib (#28):

You are incorrect in declaring Ahmadis as non-Muslims … and stating that Ahmadis supersede Quran with the teachings of their prophet.

Ahmadis believe Quran to be the final, complete Law from Allah. They further believe that Allah will continue to raise prophets to guide people according to this Law.

As Quran explains, Allah has sent prophets in the past to judge and guide people according to the then-existing divine laws. Nowhere does the Quran suggest a change in this practice of the Almighty. Instead, the eternal commandments of the Holy Quran admonish the believers to accept messengers of Allah as they appear.

Your claims against Ahmadis are incorrect and are indicative of narrow mindedness. One must be careful in making such regarding the faith of others.

As an Ahmadi-Muslim I fully believe in Quran, where Allah Almighty Himself has given the name of ``Islam`` to my faith. You are not in a position to overrule the word of Allah. This matter rests between me and the Almighty.

Asad

With all due respect to the vegetarians here, human brains evolved to their present state because of our appetite for meat. If our forefathers had been looking for Lysine and protein from other sources, we`d still be running around on all fours.

Whether we need to continue to devour all that meat in all its present day intensity is another question.

later
-sac

#23 by ahmadzai on February 14, 2003 0:38am PT

[I am against terrorism in all forms and shapes be it by terrorists like Al Qaeda or its affiliates or by the states like India and Israel. In the absence of neutral observers and international media in Kashmir, killing of Kashmiris can be blamed on the Indian Government itself. Your government is under the burden of proving it otherwise. Expecting your response of what Mr. Blackwill/Ms. Powell has said, please read my other posts.]

Well, I’m sure you’d like to believe otherwise when your own country supports dubious organizations of every color, and then uses deniability as a tool to get out of trouble. And as the anti-status quo power, we know your country would do everything within its means to internationalize the Kashmir issue. What better way than to create mischief in Kashmir, and then shout hoarse about the need to have international observers posted in Srinagar? Good luck to you. Now I’m also sure you, like other Pakistanis would surely call Ms. Nancy Powell’s statements an Indian conspiracy. Go ahead. That doesn’t change anything on the ground. The statement is proof enough of the fact that the US considers Pakistan’s support to terrorism in Kashmir remains unchanged.

[Please read my other messages where I have stated that Pakistan`s army snatched 1/3rd of our Kashmir from your occupation forces in 1949, successfully defended Pakistan against Indian onslaught in 1965 (and I would refer you to read the analysis of 1965 war published in Indian newspapers, written by Indian analysts themselves, which called it a great Indian fiasco), and lead a campaign alongside Americans in Afghanistan that eventually brought Iron Curtain down.]

If you haven’t ready my post in response to your claims above, let me repeat it again:

When your Army (so you were lying all these days that it was the tribals who did it) attacked Jammu & Kashmir, it had not acceeded to India. Regarding the newspaper article you’re talking about, you’ll have to produce the source, or take your claim back. As for bringing the iron curtain down, you must see the mess it has created for Pakistan out of which it has yet to come out. And if it were to break up (and it looks very likely), this “success” will be the very reason for that.

Bina

A nice article straight from your sensitive heart. Shows you to be a good human being.

The scenes of blood all around with dead animals hannging from the trees..I can`t even imagine such scenes..at least not in India. I wonder what do Indian muslims have to say abt it?? Can any Indian muslim answer me how much of blood-bath they have on Bakr-eid...becasue I don`t remember having seen anything so horrific in India.

I being a vegetarian, have always wondered how can people kill innocent animals and then rejoice over it.
If some people think they are being brave by such slaughtering then they are wrong. Bravery is...when one fights a two sided war with an equally prepared opponent and then wins the war. That is a true test of ones prowess and bravery.

PS: Bina...You don`t like killings..Maybe you do have Hindu ancestors and a touchy hindu blood in your veins...check it..

As I read your article, there is a sense of deja vu.
Like, I m sure, many more readers would have had too.
There is a tear in my eye for these innocent beasts. Need I say more?
I ve written my views on this senseless act in chowk unplugged : ``The role for goats on Bakrid``.
To be frank, this act makes me ashamed to be a muslim.

Asok #19 I realize that as a nonmuslim you may be unfamiliar with the significance of the Quran in Islam, and as such the questioning of ``Islamic`` (or rather pseudo-Islamic) TRADITIONS may seem tantamount to a rejection of Islam. However, the opposite is true. The Quran - through its simple, straightforward, message of peace, mercy, kindness, learning and individual responsibility - is in fact the essence of Islam. And many ``Islamic`` traditions, like this mindless slaughter of animals, are rooted in primitive societies and indeed violate the spirit of the Quranic message. Rejection of primitive and/or cruel behavior and use of common sense is perfectly within the rights (and indeed the duty) of all muslims, and indeed of all individuals regardless of religion.
The Ahmedis, on the other hand, totally twist the meaning of the Quran and open up ground for superseding the Quran with the words of new prophets, and as such it is technically correct to consider them a different religion since they do not see the Quran as the final source of divine messages.

Common features in all religions:

Sacrifice
Prayer
Pilgrimage
Fasting
Holy Offering
Holy Day
Rosary
Incence
Candles

In response to harish_hyd at # 21

``1. Your Taliban brethren executing burglars and thieves in the stadiums of Kabul and Kandahar amidst thousands of cheering onlookers. For your information, what the Northern Alliance did to Pushtuns was not nearly half as cruel as what your Taliban brethren did to Pushtuns themselves.``

You are needlessly getting emotional. Kindly look at my posts. I would like to thank you on endorsing my anti-Taliban messages. However, I was expecting more - why did not you criticise MMA?

``2. Fundamentalist rogues slitting the throat of Daniel Pearl on camera. Now what would you call that Mr. Ahmadzai, the resident representative of the Taliban? ``

Thank you again for supporting my viewpoint against terrorists, but you made a small error. You need to read my posts.

``3. Your Lashkar-e-Tayiba ``freedom fighters`` butchering innocent Kashmiris, and storming temples in India killing civilians indiscriminately. I guess that`s what ``Jihad`` means to you and your holy Muslim warrior friends. Sure, you`ll certainly your passport to heaven, not to talk of the 72 houris. ``

Again, you are getting too angry, which shows your weak footing. I am against terrorism in all forms and shapes be it by terrorists like Al Qaeda or its affiliates or by the states like India and Israel. In the absence of neutral observers and international media in Kashmir, killing of Kashmiris can be blamed on the Indian Government itself. Your government is under the burden of proving it otherwise. Expecting your response of what Mr. Blackwill/Ms. Powell has said, please read my other posts.

``4. Your brave Army (actually, I’d like to call it the only Army in the world that has never won a war), raping women and slaughtering thousands of Bangladeshis.``

Again you anger is getting the better of some truths in your message. Please read my other messages where I have stated that Pakistan`s army snatched 1/3rd of our Kashmir from your occupation forces in 1949, successfully defended Pakistan against Indian onslaught in 1965 (and I would refer you to read the analysis of 1965 war published in Indian newspapers, written by Indian analysts themselves, which called it a great Indian fiasco), and lead a campaign alongside Americans in Afghanistan that eventually brought Iron Curtain down.

Anyways, thank you very much for supporting my anti-Taliban stance. I will remain eternally indebted to you for this.

Harish-hyd at # 20 wrote:

``Here`s something from the Friday Times that Ahmadzai, our resident Mullah would enjoy reading: CHURCH OF THE POISON MIND
MOHAMMAD SHEHZAD
SCHOOLBOOKS THAT TEACH CHILDREN TO HATE``

At the cost of repetition that you are needlessly getting over-sentimental, I would refer you to my message in Attack on Iraq: Just Do It! published 0n friday 13, 2003 in response to arjun_m at # 7 who had cut and pasted the same message as you did.

In response to various questions by harimau:

``I am afraid I spoke too soon.``

No. You took your sweet time.

``Of course it is an atrocity only when Muslims are killed. Shias, Ismailis, Khojas, Ahmadis, etc., do not count as Muslims.``

No. Wrong again. They too are Muslims. If some extremist groups started their campaign against non-Sunni Muslims, they had no backing of general masses. These were targeted killings by few terrorists. No mobs were ever involved.

When Tartars destroyed the Muslim Sultanates of Khwarism (under Ganges Khan) and ultimately the Caliphate (under Halakoo Khan), they killed thousands of Muslims regardless of their sects. Historians tell us that Sunnis and Shias of combative ages were all beheaded and pyramids of their scalps were put in place as a symbol to terrorise others Muslims. Ganges Khans killings had started with the massacre of Sunni forces of 70,000 (of Turkic origin) in areas that now constitute northern Iran, when they thought that the Tartars were too many in numbers and thought that because of their Turkic origins would be spared their lives if they surrender. This they did against the advice of 60,000 Shia soldiers of Persian origin with them defending the fort. Because of the poor decision of Sunni Muslims all 130,000 were slain, as 60,000 Shia soldiers were not enough a force to win the battle.

``Mr. Ahmadzai, let me ask a question on Islamic theology here. You or any of our resident mullahs can choose to answer it. If jihad is the struggle of Muslims against oppression and injustice, why is it that not a single Muslim individual, organization or nation-state ever called the struggle of Bangladesh for independence a jihad? ``

You avoided being thrown out of the game (3 straight Nos) by asking a very good question. My answer is, and others have the right to differ, that call for Jihad (which can be military, education, poverty alleviation, economic development, etc.) can only be given by the state. The BD Government never called it a Jihad. They called it a freedom struggle. They were correct.

``Or, when the same Pakhtoons took over Mazar-e-Sharif and mercilessly killed the Shias. Or when the Indonesians killed the East Timorese. Or when the Pakistanis killed the Bangladeshis. Or the Partition riots of 1947. It is all a question of whose ox is being gored. ``

Agreed.

``Or what the Taliban did to the Afghan women. ``

The Afghan women organization RAWA blamed NA of more atrocities on Afghan women than the fanatic rogues, the Talibans. Even Zain Vergee of CNN got embarrassed while interviewing a RAWA leader, who castigated NA in general and Ahmad Shah Masood`s party in particular like anything on cruelty to Afghan women. Zain had tried to get an endorsement of what an NA leader had said earlier that ``Ahmad Shah Masood was George Washington, Abraham Lincoln and Roosevelt to Afghans all in one``.

``Mr. Ahmadzai, please answer one question: do you believe women should never leave their homes unless acoompanied by a male relative?``

No. I don`t believe that. Almost all Muslims don`t believe that. Some extremist Muslims may like it that way, but in terms of governmental regulations, nowhere in the world this is a requirement, except for Saudi Arabia. Even in the conservative NWFP of Pakistan, women are required to wear veils, but are not expected to be accompanied by males, except for protection against harassment or family feuds. If the current MMA government in the NWFP makes it a government injunction then it would be good. This would earn them lot of resentment and it will be easier to throw them out by liberal parties.

However, I would once again say that it would depend upon the situation. If my wife/sisters/mother are to go and see places in Southern Chicago or in Harlem of New York, I will accompany my wife and other family members of the entourage. If they desire to be in Toronto, Kualalumpur, Dubai, Lahore, etc. I will gladly let them go on their own. Even in the tourist dependent districts of the conservative NWFP (Chitral, Swat, Kaghan, Abbotabad, etc.), women may go on for shopping, hikes, etc. on their own.

However, the western media, especially the American wants the world to believe the world other way round to suite its own interests. Hence the negative image.

#2, #6 by ahmadzai on February 13, 2003 1:51pm PT

With only slight changes, the same scenes are more reminiscent of:

1. Your Taliban brethren executing burglars and thieves in the stadiums of Kabul and Kandahar amidst thousands of cheering onlookers. For your information, what the Northern Alliance did to Pushtuns was not nearly half as cruel as what your Taliban brethren did to Pushtuns themselves.

2. Fundamentalist rogues slitting the throat of Daniel Pearl on camera. Now what would you call that Mr. Ahmadzai, the resident representative of the Taliban?

3. Your Lashkar-e-Tayiba ``freedom fighters`` butchering innocent Kashmiris, and storming temples in India killing civilians indiscriminately. I guess that`s what ``Jihad`` means to you and your holy Muslim warrior friends. Sure, you`ll certainly your passport to heaven, not to talk of the 72 houris.

4. Your brave Army (actually, I’d like to call it the only Army in the world that has never won a war), raping women and slaughtering thousands of Bangladeshis.

Here`s something from the Friday Times that Ahmadzai, our resident Mullah would enjoy reading:


CHURCH OF THE POISON MIND
MOHAMMAD SHEHZAD
SCHOOLBOOKS THAT TEACH CHILDREN TO HATE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ISLAMABAD – Muslims alone have the right to rule the world and are allowed to kill infidels that stand in the way of Islam. This is the message being taught to schoolchildren through textbooks used in the network of institutions run by Jamaat ud-Daawa, according to a research report on Hate Speech complied by the Liberal Forum Pakistan.

Democracy, Freedom, and Peace in Textbooks: Campaign against Hate Speech reports that books published by the Lashkar-e-Taiba (the first incarnation of ud-Daawa) immerse young children in a culture that glorifies violence and hate. For example, the Urdu textbook employed to teach children the alphabet uses Bandooq (gun) as an example of a word that starts with the alphabet Bai, Talwar (sword) and Tank for Tai, Jahaz (fighter plane) for Jeem, Khanjar (dagger) for Khai, Rocket for Rai, and Tayyara (fighter plan again) for To-ay.

“Infidels are cowards by nature,” claims the Urdu textbook used in the second grade (for seven-year-olds). “When a holy warrior attacks them, they scream with terror and fear.” Mujahideen are glorified as the alpha male on a mission from God. They are the superheroes that kill Hindus, fashion all sorts of gadgets from found material, and make the infidel world cower in fear.

Art and music are forbidden so instead of handicrafts, children are asked to purchase plastic guns and trained to shoot at balloons. Games on the playground include playing guerrilla and ambushing infidel convoys. Poems relay stories of young boys that wage jihad. In Brave Child, ten-year-old Gul Rehman kills hundreds of Russians in Afghanistan. Probably fictitious letters from jihadis killed in battle strewn across textbooks. “If I am killed in battle celebrate,” reads a letter from one Abdul Nasir to his mother and sister which can be found in the seventh grade textbook. “Make sure you conceal your body and never wear perfume.”

India is presented as Pakistan’s sworn enemy and Saudi Arabia as its best friend. Kashmir is presented as Pakistani territory forcibly snatched by Hindus and Pakistan as a country created only for Muslims. Children are instructed to “mercilessly beat up” non-Muslims. “Every student should become a holy warrior,” the second grade textbook states. “We should all be willing to lay down our lives for the great nuclear power that is Pakistan.”

Published by the ud-Daawa press these are given to students free of charge and are not available on the market. TFT caught up with Abu Naseer, an official at the ud-Daawa Rawalpindi center who explained the books were meant to inspire.

“We aim to inculcate a truly Islamic spirit in our students,” said Mr Naseer. “We earnestly desire to enable our students to view Islam as a complete way of life rather than a mere set of rituals. So through our textbooks we introduce our students to the inspirational ideas and objectives of Islam, we introduce them to our glorious past.”

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Ref ahmadzai #2

[With only slight changes in the text, the same scenes can be reminiscent of Northern Alliance`s mercilessly killing the Pakhtoons before taking over northern towns of Afghanistan.]

Or, when the same Pakhtoons took over Mazar-e-Sharif and mercilessly killed the Shias.

Or when the Indonesians killed the East Timorese.

Or when the Pakistanis killed the Bangladeshis.

Or the Partition riots of 1947.

It is all a question of whose ox is being gored.

Ref ahmadzai #6

[Expecting a response from resident sangh parivar memvers on this interactive board along the lines, these scenes could be reminiscent of many an atrocities on the Muslims at other points of times in the history also.]

I am afraid I spoke too soon.

Of course it is an atrocity only when Muslims are killed. Shias, Ismailis, Khojas, Ahmadis, etc., do not count as Muslims.

Mr. Ahmadzai, let me ask a question on Islamic theology here. You or any of our resident mullahs can choose to answer it.

If jihad is the struggle of Muslims against oppression and injustice, why is it that not a single Muslim individual, organization or nation-state ever called the struggle of Bangladesh for independence a jihad?

Ref no_more_a_slave #10

[It doesnt it begin to describe what Pakhtoons did to Hazaras for years.]

Or what the Taliban did to the Afghan women.

Mr. Ahmadzai, please answer one question: do you believe women should never leave their homes unless acoompanied by a male relative?

rozaiba #4 I dont think it is correct to say that people do not sacrifice animals for ``sawab`` and only for the meat. Since if it was, they would not wait for Eid to satisfy their hunger for meat. Although no doubt there are people whose eyes see a cow but whose brain sees seekh kababs and chapli kababs. And for whom a lamb is not a noun but an adjective, as in ``lamb chops``.
In any case, I am all for vegetarianism (except some lean chicken meat and fish) - beef and mutton are great if one is aiming for cholestrol lined arteries and seeks the thrill of having a heart attack. It is hardly a recommended (except in small amounts) part of a healthy diet.
I do think it is nice to share food (as people do) with the poor on Eid. But maybe if we changed the tradition and started giving the poor plain cash, or even used the same money to buy dal-roti that could then be given to many more poor people, the poor would benefit much more. And that would be real ``sawab``, I think.

Dear Bina,

For a moment, the title led me to believe that you had written an investigative peace on bestiality.

>I am not opposed to animal sacrifice, and I hold it as my God-given >right as a Muslim to sacrifice animals and distribute their meat to the >poor on Eid.


Those goats, camels, and cows are not killed for their meat to be given to the poor. One more cultist lie.

tahmed:

few do it for sawaab. almost everyone does performs the sacrifice to satisfy the base instinct of food.

if one don`t like people being pulled by that instinct, one should be a vegetarian.

Get a grip Bina!!

Urstruly at # 3

I would like to refer you to the following para from the article:

``Go out to visit your relatives as is customary on Eid day and you will see the streets swimming in rivers of blood, innocent goats hanging from every tree outside every house with the skin being pulled off it while children laugh and point at the sight of the denuded goats. Bags of pale, bulging offal litter the streets like naked German tourists sunbathing on the beach at Majorca. Butchers squat at the traffic lights, their clothes covered in blood, carrying baskets of sharp knives and cleavers and comparing notes about how much the prize cow kicked around while its throat was being slashed and how fast they were able to finish the job.``

With only slight changes in the text, the same scenes can be reminiscent of Northern Alliance`s mercilessly killing the Pakhtoons before taking over northern towns of Afghanistan, of BJP`s extremists killing Muslims in Gujrat of India and of Indian army leaving bodies of innocent Kashmiris in the open fields after killing them in fake encounters and in custody.

Expecting a response from resident sangh parivar memvers on this interactive board along the lines, these scenes could be reminiscent of many an atrocities on the Muslims at other points of times in the history also.

I am opposed to animal sacrifice, and I hold it as my conviction as a non-Muslim to not sacrifice animals and throuw their inetestines and lungs out on the street. I do understand, though, that both dog and god love it. It also brings joy to winged and wingless angels called flies and ants.

Animal sacrifice is good for the world sans humanity. Life eats life to survive and we live in the a world dominated by insects. We are just a minor species in a sea of life forms who all love the cycle of life and death of goats for obvious reasons. This clearly exemplifies the just nature of loving god, who acts democratically, for the sake of majority of life forms. A further proof of his preferences is the heaven on earth called rain forests. He created them for the pleasure of diverse life forms of majority species.

Majority is authority and god rightfully sides with the majority rule on the streets on the day of slaughter. It is very egalitarian from the point of view of a goat. The goat loves an untouchable, Brahmin, Syed, Mullah, rich or poor equally when they come face to face, with a sharp knife in hand.

Oh, by the way, be careful about slaughtering accurately. No, I am not talking about tying down four legs, pulling the tongue outside the mouth or facing kaaba; always make an incision to the belly before dismembering the head otherwise it might be considered less than perfect sacrifice, commemorating the unsolved mystery of neighbor`s missing goat.

However, the most delicate part of sacrifice is removing skin with minimum cuts. Traditionally leather making and disposing corpses was untouchable profession in the subcontinent. They are the ones who would have been most concerned with flawless removal of skins. So why are Syeds and mullahs now so concerned about faultless removal of skins? Hmmmmm....I think I have solved this complicated mystery!!!!

Another remarkable tradition is quickly removing liver and frying it. It is often served when the deskinned goat is still hanging to tree. Goat`s liver pieces are devoured in front of the goat. Only if goat can stand up as start singing: `jigar chalni hae, qatil kha raha hae.....`

Happy Valentine day to......1, 2, 3,..............21.5

........To me, religion is a private matter...........what people do in the name of religion is...........well.......unimaginable.....I think we should all look at ourselves before pointing at others........

Binoo
reading this...i`m this much closer, *leaving a narrow gap between thumb and index finger* to becoming a vegetarian :-)
lve. ana

p.s...haven`t been to your blog in a few days...aankh ab kaisi hai?

ahmadzai
It doesnt it begin to describe what Pakhtoons did to Hazaras for years.

I could never get the idea behind ``qurbani``. Nobody is really sacrificing anything. Its just a big show off for your neighbours and relatives. The only good it does is leave permanent marks on children`s minds to haunt them later on in life.

Bina Shah:

This is an excellent article. I would like to refer the readers to the following para from the article:

``Go out to visit your relatives as is customary on Eid day and you will see the streets swimming in rivers of blood, innocent goats hanging from every tree outside every house with the skin being pulled off it while children laugh and point at the sight of the denuded goats. Bags of pale, bulging offal litter the streets like naked German tourists sunbathing on the beach at Majorca. Butchers squat at the traffic lights, their clothes covered in blood, carrying baskets of sharp knives and cleavers and comparing notes about how much the prize cow kicked around while its throat was being slashed and how fast they were able to finish the job.``

With only slight changes in the text, the same scenes can be reminiscent of Northern Alliance`s mercilessly killing the Pakhtoons before taking over northern towns of Afghanistan.

Your article indicates very well the wretchedness of this custom of slaughtering of animals. This dispatch of a goat, a cow or a camel ``in God`s way`` in hopes of winning ``sawab`` is no different from a criminal bribing the thanedar with chicken.
One day muslims will understand what religion and islam are all about, and stop these pagan rituals.

you wrote well, you sissy :)