Goats, Terrorists, and the People Who Love Them

Bina, I found your article very funny. Thank God for people with a sense of humor.
Danish

hi,tahmed32,
i like -if u have to part ways with the belief of ur parents.nodoubt religion
encourges us toexplore the thoughts of others and accept them as our own.this is the time we should come up with our own.seek a newer world.

i don``t mean going against Quran.

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sattar2 #62 Good luck to you as well. Despite our differences of opinion, I am sure you are a decent person and I wish you all the best.

Tahmed Sahib,

You ask if “Quran calls for repeat visits from prophets to keep humanity straight”. I have adequately explained this earlier with arguments from Quran. It would help if you argue on points that I have raised … that you continue to ignore.

Furthermore, your assumptions regarding end of prophethood are contradicted by Quran, and by reasoning and observation. This includes your suggestions that we “now” have common sense and therefore do not need prophets … that revelation and rationality belong to mutually exclusive domains … that prophets absolve people of their responsibilities … as well as “seal of prophethood” issue. I countered each of your point … but you have not commented. You only continue to restate your opinion on this issue.

You seem glad to see me “now” talking about Quran. Your sarcasm is incorrectly placed … and the joke is on you. I have been talking about Quran since my very first post on this board. Apparently you have not been paying attention.

You are merely restating your opinions that I havecountered from Quran and reasoning. But you have failed to admit this. There is a good chance that there will be nothing worth responding to in your next post also. If that is the case … I hope you’ll understand my lack of interest in pursuing this matter further with you. Good luck and best regards.

Asad

samirfs #59 I believe the walrus (in Lewis Carroll`s Through the Looking Glass) said the same thing as Kahlil Gibran, albeit more simply. The walrus and the carpenter, as you may recall, befriended some young oysters on the beach, and after a short walk with them, sat down and proceeded to dine on his oyster friends. When they complained of being eaten, the walrus (who had obviously read up on Kahlil Gibran) had this to say:

``I weep for you,`` the Walrus said:
``I deeply sympathize.``
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size,
Holding his pocket-handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.

``O Oysters,`` said the Carpenter,
``You`ve had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?`
But answer came there none--
And this was scarcely odd, because
They`d eaten every one.


;-)

forget about crying about bakra cutting in Eid

Celebrate a clean festival `basant` and dance and sing Raag Basant to the glory and praise of Hindu Raja Basant who started this one festival which has some genuine clean fun in it

If we understand these lines by Kahlil Gibran, probably we would do it in a more humane way;

``Then an old man, a keeper of an inn, said, ``Speak to us of Eating and Drinking.``
And he said: Would that you could live on the fragrance of the earth, and like an air plant be sustained by the light. But since you must kill to eat, and rob the newly born of its mother`s milk to quench your thirst, let it then be an act of worship, And let your board stand an altar on which the pure and the innocent of forest and plain are sacrificed for that which is purer and still more innocent in man.

When you kill a beast say to him in your heart: ``By the same power that slays you, I too am slain; and I too shall be consumed. For the law that delivered you into my hand shall deliver me into a mightier hand. Your blood and my blood is naught but the sap that feeds the tree of heaven.``

And when you crush an apple with your teeth, say to it in your heart: ``Your seeds shall live in my body, And the buds of your to-morrow shall blossom in my heart, And your fragrance shall be my breath, And together we shall rejoice through all the seasons.``

And in the autumn, when you gather the grapes of your vineyards for the winepress, say in your heart: ``I too am a vineyard, and my fruit shall be gathered for the winepress, And like new wine I shall be kept in eternal vessels.`` And in winter, when you draw the wine, let there be in your heart a song for each cup; And let there be in the song a remembrance for the autumn days, and for the vineyard, and for the winepress.``
-Kahlil Gibran

A good picture in Yahoo about American teenagers(specially girls) turning to being vegetarians.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/030218/168/3axw2.html&e=1&ncid=

sattar2 #54
I am glad that at least you are now talking about the Quran. Good. If I misunderstand the clear instructions of the Quran, then I would like to be corrected. If I truly believe that those Quranic instructions do not make sense to me, I would simply declare myself a nonmuslim. I would not bend and twist the meaning of the Quran, or merely ignore it, (as ahmedis as well as islamic extremists do) and still claim to be a muslim.

You are basically saying that the Quran calls for repeat visits from prophets to keep humanity straight. This is not what the Quran says, and you know that. All you are doing is avoiding this clear and obvious fact, and merely throwing back my conclusions about ahmedis back at me. I dont think we will get anywhere on this discussion where you have already reached your conclusions (namely, the one you were taught from childhood) and are not open to any discussion. Just remember this message (also from the Quran): if you have to part ways with the beliefs of your parents, you are free to do so. You must retain love and respect for your parents, but the responsibility for interpreting the Quran, and for doing it in an intellectually honest way, is yours only. No amount of clever arguments will lift that responsibility from your shoulders.

Ref desiscore #53

[It is interesting to learn that animal sacrifice has ever had any place in Hinduism,...]

Ask these guys exactly what the Vedic ritual called a yagna (and there are several kinds of yagnas) calls for in terms of animal sacrifice. Let them check with their local pandits and post the facts on Chowk.

[.... but I urge all sides to stop please this crude “your side kills more” fill-in-the-blank “than my side” nonsense. Your vehemence mars your rectitude like the blood on Bina’s books.]

Precisely why I correct my fellow Hindus when they start posturing on Chowk.

[Like a community of ostriches, those people who have education, means, or power in Karachi generally throw their heads under the sand, and their own blood-soaked hands in the air (1). No one I know in Karachi who does their own “qurbani” (2) fails to clean the blood off their own property. But the city is left as carrion.]

You should do what the Scots do: collect all the blood and make it into sausage; they call it black sausage, I believe.

Ref Car-up-on-Blocks #52

[The skin of Qurbani feeds whole leather Industry previously monopoly of Muslim now BRAHMINS have entered this trade !!!!!!!!!]

Not only that, the Brahmins are marrying your girls too. (Ask the Headshrinker if you don`t believe me).

This is the 21st century. Deal with it!

Tahmed Sahib,

I have negated from Quran the crux of your argument … that man “now” has enough sense to do away with the need for prophets. Quran clearly suggests that people in the past indeed had enough common sense … but were sent prophets for guidance nevertheless.

Similarly, your efforts to draw a contradiction between revelation and rationality are also negated by Quran.

You ask me … “what part of ‘do good deeds’ don’t you understand”? I have already responded to this … but here it is again. Look at the world around you. Evils that existed merely a few thousand years ago in human societies … remain very prevalent even today. Do you agree or not? If prophets were sent in the past … why are they are no longer needed?

The message of “do good deeds” has been emphasized by prophets as people became corrupt in the past. Question you must ask is … what part of “do good deeds” did these people not understand? Why were prophets repeatedly sent to remind people of their obligations? Please don’t tell me that they did not have common sense. The correct answer holds the key to the question you posed.

Furthermore, you seem to suggest that coming of prophets absolves one of his responsibilities. Quran here once again contradicts your assertions. Despite mentioning prophets … it puts each man’s burden squarely on his own shoulders. This again puts you at odds with the message of Quran.

It is worth mentioning that despite Quranic arguments that support continuation of prophethood … you have merely presented your opinion on the matter. Your assumptions are negated by Quran, as I have repeatedly shown. Your position here is no better than that of a narrow-minded mullah who ignores Quranic injunctions in favor of his own views and biases.

Finally, you invoke respect towards each other’s beliefs. This request of yours is very ironic … given that you declare me a non-Muslim while accusing me of twisting the words of Quran. You have maintained your position despite my counter arguments based on Quran, and your lack of ability to substantiate your claims. Sahib, stop behaving like a conceited, arrogant individual.

Read Quran with an open mind and don’t try to overrule the word of Allah based upon your biases. I have highlighted enough contradictions between Quran and your position here. Sahib, Titanic is going down … it is now time to abandon the ship.

Asad

Peace. Bina Shah’s well-written description of the details of slaughter during Eid-ul-Adha in Karachi is graphic and poignant. At least it was February in Karachi on this Eid. Bakra Eid in Karachi in summer is an even greater assault on the senses and on reason itself.

Shanti. It is interesting to learn that animal sacrifice has ever had any place in Hinduism, but I urge all sides to stop please this crude “your side kills more” fill-in-the-blank “than my side” nonsense. Your vehemence mars your rectitude like the blood on Bina’s books.

Salaam. Eid-ul-Adha remains Karachi’s annual bloodbath instead of merely its annual commemoration of Abraham’s fealty for at least two reasons: the median education level barely registers on the K-6 education scale, and Karachi suffers a critical lack of selfless leadership.

Not just an educated few. It will take education and brave leadership on a wide scale to make people accept the kind of changes needed to clean the blood off Karachi’s streets. Education must be the norm, not just a privilege. Too many of the educated and wealthy of Karachi use the same approach for Eid-ul-Adha that they have for facing every sad aspect of their country – they try to keep the blood and guts on the street outside. Like a community of ostriches, those people who have education, means, or power in Karachi generally throw their heads under the sand, and their own blood-soaked hands in the air (1). No one I know in Karachi who does their own “qurbani” (2) fails to clean the blood off their own property. But the city is left as carrion.

Admittedly, daunting is the scale of changing Bakra Eid in Karachi. Because of the sheer number of slaughters, the city would need careful planning on a much greater scale than Eid at the Hajj itself. A single site for the city would never be feasible, and existing slaughterhouses would have to be supplemented with large, perhaps numerous, temporary ones. But my point is that the political establishment is so self-interested that it would have no guts for the task. The religious establishment exults in the fervor of the day and has not the shame to reduce the day’s bloodiness.

Yet even with a cadre of selfless leaders the like of which I too rarely hear in Karachi, even if the current leaders did not squander the necessary resources, and even if they had a plan which could care for the city’s needs, there would likely be widespread and violent noncompliance. The uneducated masses would rather just do what their fathers before them had done – even if that is precisely the kind of “jahil” rationalization that Islam set out to destroy centuries ago and to which Abraham himself stood up so many more years before. Call that prediction elitist if you will, but it is the same reason that Muslims around the world sight the moon for every religious occasion but trust their “kafir” dayplanners for every other event in their lives (3, 4).

Eid Mubarak. Sadly it is Abraham’s “blind devotion” to which cleave the day’s celebrants, not his brave quest for reason. Imagine a world in which one billion Muslims celebrated the first revelation, “Iqra,” by fervently teaching and promoting literacy. But there is no Eid-ul-Aql. Until education has its day, Karachi under blood each year will sway.


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Endnotes:
(1) Bina, the feasting during Eid is the part of your essay that literally makes the most sense to me, at least here in the States where the slaughter has been sanitized. Eid is a feast after all. The fact that so much meat can be eaten by eye witnesses of the circumstances in Karachi, though, confirms for me that most of the city’s residents are desensitized victims, another reason why change is so necessary.
(2) Qurbani – Funny, the word always makes me think of Zeenat Aman.
(3) I may catch hell from other Muslims on chowk for what I said about sighting the moon. But they cannot dignify the tradition to me by claiming that it is the literal father of the faith, our beloved Prophet, whom they emulate. He never chose to continue on any path of ignorance as we his inheritors have done.
(4) I, who once clove to my Macintosh, now rely on my worse-than-“kafir” Microsoft Outlook XP Calendar for all my holidays, Muslim and non-Muslim alike. So all things come to the profit of Bill Gates (May God Take his greed from him).

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