Travels through America - Deep Thoughts

This is an excellent piece.

During my 45 days stay in the US last summer, I really got scared for the first time. The anti-Muslim propaganda seemed to be in full swing. I recall a program in which a Minister was quoting the verses of Holy Quran out of context to prove that American Muslims are not faithful to America. I thought that several verses and almost entire of old Testatment could be quoted out of context to prove that Christians and Jews were anti-America too.

US is great to visit and meet people though. At least for us, Americans are proven to be the most friendliest of all the people.

nazar:

interesting observations … with your usual streak of moderation… suspect it comes from seeing it from a distance and at close hand…and…comparing it (with your experience of other lands, though am glad you did not mention them in context here)…you described and observed almost everything….except perhaps the cemeteries…serene and neatly laid out…but that is a minor oversight…on another board I enquired if you are on 310/320 or 747?…

rgds,

t

This is an excellent piece.

During my 45 days stay in the US last summer, I really got scared for the first time. The anti-Muslim propaganda seemed to be in full swing. I recall a program in which a Minister was quoting the verses of Holy Quran out of context to prove that American Muslims are not faithful to America. I thought that several verses and almost entire of old Testatment could be quoted out of context to prove that Christians and Jews were anti-America too.

US is great to visit and meet people though. At least for us, Americans are proven to be the most friendliest of all the people.

•·.·´¯`·.·• Idea of the Millenium •·.·´¯`·.·•


The websites that you`ve mentioned, if you had given your affiliate links for all of them, it would`ve earned you a handsome sum! :)

i think this is a nice and well written article. but seriously by the end of the article i was getting rather tired of reading about all the good stuff that america has to offer. what about all the bad stuff??? what about invading other , poorer, weaker countries, that great america uses and abuses everday to make life better in thier own country while destroying others. what about all the strip joints, teenage pregnancies, high divorce rate etc etc.

Good article...I agree with your description of the `average` American. They are really simple, good and friendly folks, and I say this from personal experience. I had the fortune of meeting some wonderful Americans and they will always hold a special place in my heart. Another way this can be looked at is that they tend to be ignorant and don`t seem to care about what`s happening in the rest of the world, which is also true to some extent. I don`t know about the `not caring` part but they do give off an aura of living in their own little world. I guess, barring the rednecks and supremists (and politicians ;)), Americans are also pretty tolerant of other people and their religions and culture. I was living there pre and post Sept 11 and the people I interacted with were tolerant enough to listen and at least try to understand another`s point of view. I don`t know how much that has changed with the imminent Iraq war etc. I`ve heard some horror stories...

hi it look like heaven

So 80ish. This American Center style propaganda worked well prior to 90s.....I am one of those who were conned.

Ref sajni #5

[.... seriously by the end of the article i was getting rather tired of reading about all the good stuff that america has to offer. what about all the bad stuff??? what about ..... all the strip joints, teenage pregnancies, high divorce rate etc etc.]

You can actually live in the US without visiting a strip joint (gasp, what a surprise!), teach your teen-age daughter about contraception if she plans to have an active sex life, not divorce your spouse even though you think that is the local fashion.

Try it. It works for a lot of people. Even for Americans.

On the other hand, if you can`t prevent your teen-age daughter from fcuking around, move back to Desh.

The American roads are a great source of inspiration. They are the best place to avoid the depressed looks of millions of urbanites of America locked in their routines to satisfy superficial desires which they cannot rise to get rid of...and of course it`s a society let down by love.

However, the passions of the Black race will continue to save America from crumbling with the weight of unfulfilled dreams and expectations.

Nice overview, nicely written. I would have prefereed a more condensed view keeping the focus on one small town in the south, midwest or western United States.

Two ideas.......rule of law and checks and balances describe US best. We are fortunate to live in the era of a balanced superpower. For every objectionable act of US foreign policy related issues, two or more benevolent acts can be pointed out. God! If it was Islamic instead of western, only coercion would have ruled the world with loan guarantees, loans, aid would have been rain checks to be cashed in the afterlife.

I enjoyed reading your article. It reminded me of another gentleman who visited the US, back in 1831, and provided insights that are considered to be relevant even a century and a half later. This of course was the Frenchman M. de tocqueville, who wrote, among other things: ``I confess that in America I saw more than America; I sought the image of democracy itself, with its inclinations, its character, its prejudices, and its passions, in order to learn what we have to fear or hope from its progress. ``
As this statement shows, back in the 1800s the US provided the model of democracy to Europeans who then moved out of the kingship stage in their political development. One hundred and seventy years later, the US continues to provide the ``winning model`` to the world, having won people over handily from the competing ideologies of communism and fascism.

America is also a frame of mind.

The friedliest people that I have ever met have been Americans.

This is a great country which currently appears to be run by a very

unusual bunch of misfits.


Ras


(And the biggest buch of aholes I have ever met have been ?????)

Idyllic. Mujhe bhi chahiye

#9 harimau: i agree with you, but its hard to control teenagers these days. maybe you dont have kids, but you should ask around, its difficult to raise ones kids here. and plus the kind of language you used in your post tells me something or rather a lot about how people who are raised here, behave

Sameer have you gone ape crazy, why the heck you drag Islam and Pakistan into each and every thing, he is enlisting the attributes of America, not discussing what America would have looked like if it had been Islamic, thank God it is not ruled by BJP or some safrron brigade, it would have been a real hell on earth (or I should say Narak)

urstruly: you write ``I am one of those who were conned. ``
We have been through this: you bad mouth the US. Someone on chowk then reminds you that if you really dislike it so much here, no one is stopping you from taking the flight out to whereever you want. You then remain silent, only to come back a month or so later to repeat the entire exercise.
How about this: Why dont you spare us all the need to remind you that you are not being held prisoner in Detroit, and simply add a disclaimer after you are done explaining how bad the US. Something like this:
``Please dont pay attention to what I write. My actions belie my words. Thank you.
Yourstruly,
Urstruly``

Something like this would save us all a lot of chowk time.

tahmed sahib:

american political experiment was in response to centuries of sectarian conflict in europe (sort of like the roman political experiment after the fall of etruscans). american experiment gave life to first amendment. it also resulted in three-fifths clause and the separate but equal doctrine which was in place until forty years ago. your claim therefore that americans have always operated on a higher moral plane does not hold water.

record is also mixed when it comes to intervention abroad. as discussed before, americans played an important role in confronting fascism in wwii and in confronting russians in korea. americans also did muslims a huge favour when they pulled the rug beneath british and israelis during the suez crisis. on the other hand, americans during the occupation of philippines killed 200,000 natives over a four year period. record is also mixed in our part of the world. overthrow of mossadeq had disatrous consequences for islamic world. and what about the support to saddam, zia, likud and house of saud? check out a memo drafted by reagan`s secretary of state alexander haig after a trip to mideast in 1981. document makes interesting reference to all parties. roots of the current geopolitical crises can be traced directly to this document.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2003/haig-docs.html

on an other matter, i used to make fun of paki politicians for wearing a flag on their lapels on independence day. american politicians have been wearing flags on their lapels for the last year and a half. despite you denials, the country really is changing.

American government is committing race and religion-based attricoties on poor and innocent people, however, Unites States and the American people continue to be a great nation and people respectively.

Warm and hospitable!


May God bless us all and give so me guidance to the war-headed leaders in D.C. and London, UK.

oh so i see people belive the american government is made of zombies or some space creatures. well news for all you folks, THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT IS MADE BY THE FLESH AND BLOOD AMERICAN PEOPLE, so please dont assume that american people are so great.

Ref sajni #15

[#9 harimau: ..... its difficult to raise ones kids here. and plus the kind of language you used in your post tells me something or rather a lot about how people who are raised here, behave]

My language is much better than what you get among schoolkids in the US.

If tahmed sahib`s comments are to be believed, to phir, GAND MARAY DEV ANAND!!
You know, urstruly is not so off the wall this time.
We all believe the USA is a great country but its executive leadership would be committing a big blunder by waging its war on Iraq. Hope clear heads will prevail.

All Chowkies

I am reminded of my school days. You Chowkies are very strict teachers.
I thought it was a reasonable story. Love to all and malice towards none. And you reduced it to two stars.

Keeping my fingers crossed for a possible ``F``.

#23: no i dont think people should be giving you an ``F``, its just that worshipping something or someone so much is closer to ``idolatory.`` and unfortunately people have started worshipping america, and all its material things, so much so that we have become slaves and cant think straight anymore. there is nothing that great about this country. infact if you take away drugs such as `prozac` and other such drugs you will truly find out how unhappy people are here. america with all its materilasm has given an inferiority complex to all other nations, making us belive that what we have is useless and what is important is what america says, its like todays new god. pakistan or any other country is much much more beautiful than america but do we see that , NO, because we are blinded by america, that wont let us see the beauty that we have. we are blinded by what america tells us constantly is beautiful or great. america sets the standard for everyone and we , fools, follow it blindly. and now ofcourse its on its way to kill and murder some more people, whcih is fine too since the great america can do anyhting.

Buddhist approaches a hot-dog vendor and asks for a hot dog. He gives the vendor a $20 bill and waits. Finally he says: ``Where`s my change?``.
Says the vendor: ``All change must come from within.``

(This is not meant to prove any point. I just thought it was funny).

faisaluno #18 The facts as you present them are correct and provide a balanced view of the bright spots and the dark spots in US history. And, I think you will agree, there are bright and dark spots in the history of any other part of the world. It is also a country that has managed in two centuries to convert a wilderness to a center of world civilization, and to make steady social progress in integrating blacks in the rest of society.
What sets the US apart from other nations, I think, is that it was the first nation that was founded with an explicit statement of certain IDEALS (liberty, inalienable rights of the individual, equality before law) that had till then existed only in the writings of idealists like John Stuart Mill and Jean-Jacques Rousseau.
As for US foreign policy, it is not as decrepit or thoughtless as one would think from the negative references to it. After all, the US made what virtually everyone (other than a handful of nuts like neo-Nazis and skinheads) would agree in hindsight was the correct foreign policy decision of backing democracies against dictatorships in the first half of hte twentieth century. And in the second half of the twentieth century the US again made what everyone (other than a small handful of aging communists in Russia) in hindsight agrees was the correct foreign policy decision of backing capitalism vs. communism. And I think time will also tell that the current policy of ``zero tolerance`` of terrorism and of despotic governments is basically the correct one. While one can argue that North Korea is a bigger threat than Saddam, the fact is that both these regimes do present a threat in terms of serving as suppliers of powerful weapons to terrorists. While the US foreign policy is being criticized the world over, I remember in the 1960`s and 1970`s when the mark of an ``intellectual`` (in Pakistan, in Europe, and in colleges in the US itself) was that he ridiculed the US emphasis on capitalism and quoted from Marx. So, I would rather decide for myself whether the US policy of ``zero tolerance`` for terrorists and those who can potentially provide weapons for them is the correct strategy, even if ``intellectuals`` across the world and within the US take to the streets against it. And in my judgement, the US is exactly right in going after terrorists - while it may make tactical mistakes here and there, the strategy is the right one, and consistent with the overall ideals, the rule of law being one of them. Coming from Pakistan that has seen more than its share of lawlessness, I think you and I should be able to appreciate this emphasis on law and order more than college professors sitting in their comfortable tenured jobs or starry eyed college students in the US or anywhere else.

Dear Nazar,

Don’t worry about the stars over here. Their number doesn’t necessarily correspond to the quality of the piece. What I have understood, chowkees appreciate halla-gulla more than gentle talk.

Take care.

the problem is that the US is not going after terrorists its only going to war to protect its oil , and thats that

tahmad # 17

Oye tooN amreekay da mama lagna aiN?

sajni #28 While I admire your knowledge about shampoos :-), I do think you need to take economics more seriously. While it is conventional wisdom to say that the US is going after Iraq due to oil, do you seriously think that once in Iraq, the US will turn Iraq into a colony? While no one can of course foretell the future (not even the policy makers in the US, since even the US cannot afford to ignore popular opinion, and that is why they are trying so hard to put forward their point of view and get broader support before taking out Saddam), my bet is the war will be short (about 2 weeks at most), and at the end the Iraqis will be on the road to democracy. The post-war plans that the US has been announcing today (as reported in the BBC) clearly seem to indicate this (the ministry of information being one the ministries that would be abolished in order to enable a free press; the iraqi army would be made responsible for maintaining law and order after Saddam; and so forth).
Anyway lets hope for the best for the Iraqis. And then lets start paying some attention to our own Pakistanis, the millions who suffer poverty every day and who deserve our attention much more than other people anyway. At least that is what I think.

Urstruly #29 Your attempt at talking like a panjabi tough guy is as hollow as your other miserable acts - like saying you were conned into coming to the US, but not wishing to leave it; like writing challenging hindus to a duel as if you are some kind of a warrior, when all you are doing is posting anonymous insults from the safety of your home. You are a fake.
And as I reminded you once, while I enjoy talking in panjabi with friends and people I respect, I dont buy this ``fellow panjabi`` with anonymous posters on chowk.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Reply # 33

Tipu - I was just kidding on the lighter side. Chowk is a great site and its best part is the interaction. All this fire and fury is very educative and one learns to get the perspective of the South Asians from all over the world.

May I say that Chowk is the best South Asian site I have come across and its format is superb.

I just bumped into it accidently one day.

tahmad

you are unnecessarily angry with me. My argument was that US has become an extremely intolerant country, therefore, I feel conned into beleiving what writer has written and it used to be the main propaganda line in the `80s to lure youth of third world. If you are convinced otherwise, that US has not become an extremely intolerant country, then present your argument. Can you? Write one convincing post (without blasting me); it might change my mind. May be I am wrong.

tahmed32: you know what, i have decided to discuss this issue once the war is over in as you say in only 2 weeks , and once US leaves Iraq in a better and a democratic position after the war then i will take all my words back, and possibly change my opinions about the US, but until then i am sticking to my views. i truly hope that what you are saying turns out to be right. we should all pray and hope for the best :)

tahmed sahib:

you are right and i am wrong. as recent developments in jordan indicate, uncle sam really is interested in bringing about democracy to the muslim world. onwards with the bombing i say.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/09/international/middleeast/09JORD.html?pagewanted=2

_ _ _Abdullah came to the throne with calls for a move toward fuller democracy, but the rising conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, and America`s response to the Sept. 11 attacks, roused popular feelings that prompted him to reverse course. Parliament was suspended and elections postponed. Permits were required for protests, and few were granted. Tighter press controls were imposed. More than 120 new laws have been passed by royal decree.

Unions and professional associations, a powerful pro-Islamist force under King Hussein, were barred from political activities. This week they struck back in a joint statement warning Jordanians that any cooperation with American troops here would betray Islam

Sajni #36 Its a deal. We shall put this discussion on hold until the war takes place, and THEN see if it indeed was over in two weeks and placed Iraq on the road to democracy.
Let us all pray indeed for the best, and for God to spare the lives of everyone concerned (Iraqi and US, civilian and soldier). There is a tiny possibility that there will be no war, and Saddam will chose the option presented to him by Bush in his speech to quit his job and go to some other country. But I fear that will probably not happen, and it looks like war will start around March 20th (a couple of days after the ultimatum given by Bush has expired). Which means, you and I shall talk again around April 10 or so. And we can do that on the topmost article on chowk at the time. And Urstruly can be the referee.

Urstruly #35 Fair enough. Always glad to debate. So the proposition you make is (a) that what the writer of this article has written ``the main propaganda line in the `80s to lure youth of third world`` and (b) that ``the US has become an extremely intolerant country.``
On (a) I dont recall the US having to lure youth from the third world in the `80`s. I in fact recruited a number of these youth back then (many of them top graduates from IITs in India), and as I recall it their main concern invariably was to obtain a permanent residence in the US. A small number of people I know from Pakistan and a couple from India went back to their countries, but that was for family reasons and not due to any intolerance shown to them. In fact, I have never heard of the US ever having to lure individuals with the exception of world famous scientists (e.g. from postwar Germany and Japan, nobel prize winners, and others who had already established their credentials - not fresh out of college youth by any means). On (b), if the US has become an intolerant country, then why are the Pakistani youth who have overstayed their visas so worried about being sent back? If they felt threatened by anyone in the US, why would they have overstayed their visas to begin with, and why are they so concerned about being deported at this time? The US authorities are indeed enforcing laws that were always on the books, and by no stretch of imagination does that count as intolerance. Even if one questions the effectiveness of these measures in preventing terrorist attacks on inside the US, but by no reasonable standard would one consider the US authorities to be out of line in taking these measures. The true villains are those who planned and executed the murderous attacks of 9/11, not the US authorities which are doing what I wish the Pakistan authorities would do more of - namely do all they can to ensure law and order within the country.
There. No personal attacks on you, and I have made a case for your consideration.

tahmad #38

I don’t think that you yourself believe in a word that you have written. Had you believed in that bullshit that America has not become an intolerant country, you wouldn’t have asked me to leave the country for merely expressing my opinion. If this is not intolerance then what is?

So my initial response was correct – tainu amreekay da mama banan da shouq eh, har waylay dee maa yavi khaRpainchi changee naeeN hondi.

Once a McKhatri told me to leave the country too ( and so do many other McLangoors often). I told him that everything that white man does or says is not always true. They ain’t our masters and we ain’t their dogs. Leave the slave mentality behind in subcontinent. Learn to dissent. Freedom is also a state of mind. Let your conscience enjoy it, even if your body is in shackles and chains. But what would one do when his conscience and mind is in shackles and chains and he doesn’t know it?

urstruly #40 You asked a reasonable question, I gave you a reasonable response. Looks like you had trouble sustaining your ability to discuss anything reasonably, and therefore slip back into the form you are accustomed to.
My congratulations on having written one post (the one to which I provided you with a reasonable response) out of the several hundred you have written on chowk where the reader could have mistaken you to be a grown up man.

#39 thamed32: sounds like a great idea :)

This article sends me into nostalgia. Those were the good old days when we used to travel distances to rock with our favorite rockers - Whitesnake, Bon Jovi, AC/DC, Cinderella, Great White (the recent Rhode Island fire fame with their melodious blues based rock music - once bitten twice shy, lady redlight, monkey on my back, sale away, etc.). My family wants to visit the US every summer, but this time it is Malaysia for us. Better to be within our own rather than take chances.

This is what has happened. Due to the extremist and fanatic attitude of Bush & Company, we cannot meet our loved ones this time - many of them All Star White Americans.

Sorry pals, the tourists who used to throng to America will move on to better pastures and only innocent American businessmen will suffer.

I would Put Mr Bush and his allies Crying for War in the Same Bracket with Halaku Khan and recently Hitler..

...its the same Old tale again...but this time with Naked agenda
War for Oil.

All other what Mr Bush or Blair say are just pretexts...like a Wolf when he accused a lamb of contaminating His water downstream so to have a pretext to Kill him.

Who is Osama Bin Laden or Mullah Umar... i can Visualize...
Osam and Mullah Umer reporting...to the CIA center Sir Agent Osama and Umar reporting we are on our Mission and its going to succed soon..( Amazing every time Osama Appears its on Al-Jazere television with their Headquarters in USA...!!

As for Saddam the least said the Better..he too Was once a Blue eye jewel of USA....Now out of Favour and this his given them pretext to rage a WAR..

Remember USA has more weapons of Mass Destruction in their arsenel then any one...at any time in the World History..

Also USA is the only county to Actually USED those weapons of Mass destruction many times...from Japan to Vietnem.. blah blah to Afghanistan and now Iraq...( I wonder is Pakistan Next ...)

USA is the only country now threatiening to USE them again...and are trying to legitimize them through bulling UN to accept their terms of demand in the use of those weapons of mass destruction.