Muslims in India: Communalism vs. Backwardness-Minority Syndrome

rsridhar #131
Please don`t generalize saying `except Muslims`. Thats not true, thats not been my experience and moreover isn`t that a rather hurtful comment to come across in a apolitical discussion about apolitical things.

btw, did you see the photo in #111 :)?

Pankaj #121
I too have always noticed the fundamental similarities under the more visible cultural/religious differences. I am just wary of using the word `civilisation` because this word seems to have acquired negative connotations in recent times.

I would imagine there is similar abundance of diversity in Pakistan and similar soceital trend towards increased mutual interaction after 1947. For example if PM Jamali had been only a Balochi(and not Pakistani as well) he could at most have been PM of only a few million Balochis. Now he is able to exercise his native Balochi genius(for example) in a much wider scope or theatre, and put it to service of a much larger group of people.

pmishra2 #135 you write ``However, when clueless interactors pretend that Savarkar invented communalism, or that Jinnah`s Direction Action Day and Narendra Modi`s Gaurav Yatra have no connection, then we have to return to history and establish some ground facts``
I admit to being the clueless interactor who discussed Savarkar with you. Actually, I had mentioned the pomp and show with which Savarkar`s picture was placed next to Gandhi`s in the halls of the Indian Parliament - and this wasnt ancient history, this happened earlier this week. You twist this to ``Savarkar invented communalism``, and drag in events that took place half a century ago.
Thanks to you I am no longer clueless. I am well clued into how easily you twist things to prove whatever stupid point you are trying to prove.

No one is arguing that we have to re-hash history here over and over. However, when clueless interactors pretend that Savarkar invented communalism, or that Jinnah`s Direction Action Day and Narendra Modi`s Gaurav Yatra have no connection, then we have to return to history and establish some ground facts.

I have argued repeatedly that politicians like Nehru and Jinnah bungled the transfer of power from the British very badly. That their legacies include a certain amount of raw political maneuvering for which the price was finally paid in the 10`s of thousands of lives. I dont see this as being obsessed by the past.

Finally, pakistani respondents have to understand that fundamentally indians have no interest in them. This includes invasion, economic union, etc. etc. Other than some humanitarian interactions (divided families) there is no reason for wishing any other special relationship. Perhaps once Musharraf is out of the scene a cold peace may be possible some years out.

The accession of the state of Jammu and Kashmir to India involved a special relationship between the indian union and J&K. This needs to be restored with some creativity in place.

This is the course that intelligent commentators like Sumit Ganguly has repeatedly stressed and highlighted (and people like ylh and sarwari have repeatedly called Sumit Ganguly a hindu fascist!). I can easily imagine a future in which the Kashmir valley receives the grant of autonomy it seeks (``azadi``), while the remainder of J&K is bound closer to India. All of this requires peace, the return of pandits and normal economic ties. None of this is possible as long as the madrassahs keep churning out their mad murderers.

Ref YLH2 #114

[.... with an Independent and peaceful Kashmir we will effectively bury the threat of nuclear war... ]

Yasser, dear boy, try telling Uncle Musharraf that Kashmir ought to be independent. He will tell you the NAME of the Pakistani-stolen part is AZAD Kashmir. That, dear boy, is as close to Independence as Kashmir will ever get.

And please stop this nonsense of ``Stop me before I unleash the nukes``. One more threat and Pakistan will be disarmed by the US. In case you dodn`t know this, the US is not worried about The Hindu Bomb falling into the hands of the Hindutva-wadis. On the other hand, there IS serious concern about the Islamic Bomb.

[You are welcomed anytime in my house in Lahore...]

Yasser, dear boy, come to Chennai anytime you want. I will meet you at the airport and put you up at my home and show you around. It might actually open up your eyes as to the reality of India as opposed to what you read in the Frontier Post.

re:#119 by sadna
A good post Sadna.
By now, you should know how Pakistanis (at least in Chowk) think. My own impression (after interacting here for 2 years, perhaps more) is that many Pakis have no inkling of how democracy works. To be democratic in a diverse nation, one has to appreciate and assimilate in that diversity. Indians (barring the muslims) are doing that everyday. pakistanis are unable to do that. Indians in general have more faith in their institutions than Pakis do in theirs. The only institution Pakis swear by is the Army, which is taking them down an abyss.
I, as a Tamilian, grew up in Delhi. I was a third generation Delhite until i migrated to US. We grew up among Punjabees (mostly expatriates from Pak). It was a great interaction and we were like a family. Once a year, my parents would visit Madras to see their relatives. Sometimes, they would just leave us (me and my brother) with a Punjabee neighbour who was very close. We were happy being left alone with them. When my parents settled down in Madras later on, many of our neighbours visited us and we kept that interaction going. Looking back, those were very happy days in my life.
I know a cousin of my, a doctor in Delhi, who married a Punjabee. Their parents are very traditional and speak Hindi with difficulty! There is tremendous interaction going on in India among people at all levels. One has to live in India to experience that. Armchair theorists like Sameer do not get the picture.
Sridhar

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Pankaj #121 I agree that Sameerjb is offtrack when he thinks India should break up into several countries. This is a superficial way of looking at things.
The fact is that when people from different cultures work together, live in the same neigborhood, have children going to the same school, they tend to lose consciousenss of their perceived differences (racial, religious, ethnic, nationality) and start seeing each other for what they are - as individuals, with their own distinct personalities and levels of intellectual development.
I hope that India flourishes as a great multiethnic secular democracy, and slowly but steadily solves its problems of poverty, hindu chauvinism (and this includes the mindset of the BJP mainstream politicians, not just the hindu extremists), and mob violence. I have no doubt that time is on the side of the progressive forces in India, not the regressive ones.

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Yasser speak also known as OODA loop = observe - orient - decide - act . . . repeat as often as required and whenever any of the parameters change . . . so for once I agree with Yasser (as long as he agrees with me?) that what is wrong with strategy based on changing environment and ground realities?

After all, that is life, right?

In this case, arjunm122, don`t you think we should all celebrate Yasser` change (for the better?),

Though I do find his fascination for Khushwant Singh rather off. Harry Potter I would understand.

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YLH and other peace nicks,

It amazing to see these good hearted people talking about economic progress, how the progress of india is tied to that of pakistan.

It is time that pakistanis accept the fact that with or woth out peace with pakistan india will progress. Every country need to have military spending and the indian expenditure of 3 percent of GDP, around 15 percentage of budget is not very high. Importantly india has the fundamentals right, an educated population, democratic system and it is self sustaining. India has high saving rate, finally an image of confidence and competance.

With 40 percent of the budget on military, the rest for dbt repayment, no educational infrastructure and with its great image there is no hope for pakistan. Only way the pak military bidget can be reduced is through a peace deal with india. India should ignore pakistan, tell pakistan to continue with jihadic attacks, acquire sofisticated military equipment, integrate military production and weapons exports. Eventually there could a time when pakistan can contained by routime bombing raids as in palestine.

At last indians are accepting the fact that there can be no peace on jihadic frontier, it can only be acceptable kill ratios. With the return of taliban and alquida from afghanistan, the jihadisation of pakistan is expected to accelerate. Jihadic Republic of Pakistan has a ring to it.

To Pakistanis and Indians on Chowk:

Jinnah is dead. Gandhi is dead. Jinnah or Gandhi`s dream or vision or hopes or fears died with them. Both were men; politicans and whether they were good or bad, wise or foolish, brave or weak is a question not to be decided through personalized embitterness or rancour. Whether they made mistakes or not is a academic debate, which will never solve the problems facing Pakistan or India. Yes, they can be said to have contributed to the problems facing Pakistan and India, but that pales in comparsion to the question of how those problems are to addressed and solved.

They belong to history. The reality of partition is that it was a series of mistakes compounded by a lack of compromise on all sides. The problems of India will solved by Indians just like the problems of Pakistan will be solved by Pakistanis without blaming one another and I can assure you, the problems in both the nations will never be solved as long as we blame each other for our misfortunes and mistakes.

Both India and Pakistan, if they are to progress, have to move beyond the insecurities of parition and its aftermath and to accept the reality of their present, without seeking the impossible by making their future a mirror of what their past was once. Hate and finger pointing has to give way to tolerance and understanding and the arrogance of history, which justifies the hatred between the two nations, has to yeild to humility; humility based on the awareness that both India and Pakistan are flawed. Both India and Pakistan are flawed, because their leaders are flawed by the virtue of being human beings and not demi-gods of omniscience. Humility comes not only from accepting one`s own faults, but in tolerating the other person`s faults as well.

Does hate ever solve anything? Has placing the blame ever solved anything? If not, then why pursue an endeavor, which is so futile and without any merit?

Ciao

#119 by sadna
Take my example. My mom spent all her growing up years in Delhi, Simla and Bhopal; my dad was born a Kanndiga, had his education in Hydarabad and came to Maharashtra for work. I was concived in Assam (I am told), was born in Bhopal, and have lived all my life (except for 2 years that I spent in Chennai working as IT soldier) in that bashon of `Marathi` ness - Pune. I am the walking example of National Integration :) The thing is, no matter where I am in India, I have never felt like an outsider. So much for India-will-break-up-into-4-5-nations-once-Kashmir-is-solved-theories.

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Sadna

India, IMO, is a civilization state. It transcends the nation states defined on the basis of language, religion or sects/castes. There is so much overlapping and intermixing at every level that it can not be but one country. The diversity is all too visible on the surface- diversity in language, dress, lifestyles etc. What is not readily observable is the similarity beneath the surface - similarity arising out of culture/traditions, no doubt shaped by four millenia of common history; and similarity in the thought patterns and the shared fundamental value sets, a by-product of the civilizational consciousness. The languages may be different across India but they tell the same tale. India is more closely knit than what many people including some indians think. I had a first hand experience of this fact when I visited Trichy, located in the extreme South, for my summer internship a few years back. Secondly, with the economic growth, the mobility of the labour market in India has grown tremendously. This intermixing of populations, driven by the economic factors, has further blurred the boundaries. In due course of time, the economic factors will promote a common metropolitan culture emerging in the multiple centers of India further increasing the interdependence of diverse peoples. Although India is well integrated as far as culture (civilization) is concerned, I believe it has to go a long way before it becomes a well integrated economic zone. That, IMO, will be the pinnacle of the civilization state of India.