Muslims in India: Communalism vs. Backwardness-Minority Syndrome
Zafar Anjum February 27, 2003
#129 Posted by veeresh on March 3, 2003 12:56:08 am
Yasser speak also known as OODA loop = observe - orient - decide - act . . . repeat as often as required and whenever any of the parameters change . . . so for once I agree with Yasser (as long as he agrees with me?) that what is wrong with strategy based on changing environment and ground realities?
After all, that is life, right?
In this case, arjunm122, don`t you think we should all celebrate Yasser` change (for the better?),
Though I do find his fascination for Khushwant Singh rather off. Harry Potter I would understand.
After all, that is life, right?
In this case, arjunm122, don`t you think we should all celebrate Yasser` change (for the better?),
Though I do find his fascination for Khushwant Singh rather off. Harry Potter I would understand.
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#130 Posted by Tipu on March 3, 2003 9:03:36 am
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#131 Posted by tahmed32 on March 3, 2003 9:07:16 am
Pankaj #121 I agree that Sameerjb is offtrack when he thinks India should break up into several countries. This is a superficial way of looking at things.
The fact is that when people from different cultures work together, live in the same neigborhood, have children going to the same school, they tend to lose consciousenss of their perceived differences (racial, religious, ethnic, nationality) and start seeing each other for what they are - as individuals, with their own distinct personalities and levels of intellectual development.
I hope that India flourishes as a great multiethnic secular democracy, and slowly but steadily solves its problems of poverty, hindu chauvinism (and this includes the mindset of the BJP mainstream politicians, not just the hindu extremists), and mob violence. I have no doubt that time is on the side of the progressive forces in India, not the regressive ones.
The fact is that when people from different cultures work together, live in the same neigborhood, have children going to the same school, they tend to lose consciousenss of their perceived differences (racial, religious, ethnic, nationality) and start seeing each other for what they are - as individuals, with their own distinct personalities and levels of intellectual development.
I hope that India flourishes as a great multiethnic secular democracy, and slowly but steadily solves its problems of poverty, hindu chauvinism (and this includes the mindset of the BJP mainstream politicians, not just the hindu extremists), and mob violence. I have no doubt that time is on the side of the progressive forces in India, not the regressive ones.
#132 Posted by arjun_m on March 3, 2003 9:07:16 am
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#133 Posted by rsridhar on March 3, 2003 9:07:16 am
re:#119 by sadna
A good post Sadna.
By now, you should know how Pakistanis (at least in Chowk) think. My own impression (after interacting here for 2 years, perhaps more) is that many Pakis have no inkling of how democracy works. To be democratic in a diverse nation, one has to appreciate and assimilate in that diversity. Indians (barring the muslims) are doing that everyday. pakistanis are unable to do that. Indians in general have more faith in their institutions than Pakis do in theirs. The only institution Pakis swear by is the Army, which is taking them down an abyss.
I, as a Tamilian, grew up in Delhi. I was a third generation Delhite until i migrated to US. We grew up among Punjabees (mostly expatriates from Pak). It was a great interaction and we were like a family. Once a year, my parents would visit Madras to see their relatives. Sometimes, they would just leave us (me and my brother) with a Punjabee neighbour who was very close. We were happy being left alone with them. When my parents settled down in Madras later on, many of our neighbours visited us and we kept that interaction going. Looking back, those were very happy days in my life.
I know a cousin of my, a doctor in Delhi, who married a Punjabee. Their parents are very traditional and speak Hindi with difficulty! There is tremendous interaction going on in India among people at all levels. One has to live in India to experience that. Armchair theorists like Sameer do not get the picture.
Sridhar
A good post Sadna.
By now, you should know how Pakistanis (at least in Chowk) think. My own impression (after interacting here for 2 years, perhaps more) is that many Pakis have no inkling of how democracy works. To be democratic in a diverse nation, one has to appreciate and assimilate in that diversity. Indians (barring the muslims) are doing that everyday. pakistanis are unable to do that. Indians in general have more faith in their institutions than Pakis do in theirs. The only institution Pakis swear by is the Army, which is taking them down an abyss.
I, as a Tamilian, grew up in Delhi. I was a third generation Delhite until i migrated to US. We grew up among Punjabees (mostly expatriates from Pak). It was a great interaction and we were like a family. Once a year, my parents would visit Madras to see their relatives. Sometimes, they would just leave us (me and my brother) with a Punjabee neighbour who was very close. We were happy being left alone with them. When my parents settled down in Madras later on, many of our neighbours visited us and we kept that interaction going. Looking back, those were very happy days in my life.
I know a cousin of my, a doctor in Delhi, who married a Punjabee. Their parents are very traditional and speak Hindi with difficulty! There is tremendous interaction going on in India among people at all levels. One has to live in India to experience that. Armchair theorists like Sameer do not get the picture.
Sridhar
#134 Posted by harimau on March 3, 2003 9:07:17 am
Ref YLH2 #114
[.... with an Independent and peaceful Kashmir we will effectively bury the threat of nuclear war... ]
Yasser, dear boy, try telling Uncle Musharraf that Kashmir ought to be independent. He will tell you the NAME of the Pakistani-stolen part is AZAD Kashmir. That, dear boy, is as close to Independence as Kashmir will ever get.
And please stop this nonsense of ``Stop me before I unleash the nukes``. One more threat and Pakistan will be disarmed by the US. In case you dodn`t know this, the US is not worried about The Hindu Bomb falling into the hands of the Hindutva-wadis. On the other hand, there IS serious concern about the Islamic Bomb.
[You are welcomed anytime in my house in Lahore...]
Yasser, dear boy, come to Chennai anytime you want. I will meet you at the airport and put you up at my home and show you around. It might actually open up your eyes as to the reality of India as opposed to what you read in the Frontier Post.
[.... with an Independent and peaceful Kashmir we will effectively bury the threat of nuclear war... ]
Yasser, dear boy, try telling Uncle Musharraf that Kashmir ought to be independent. He will tell you the NAME of the Pakistani-stolen part is AZAD Kashmir. That, dear boy, is as close to Independence as Kashmir will ever get.
And please stop this nonsense of ``Stop me before I unleash the nukes``. One more threat and Pakistan will be disarmed by the US. In case you dodn`t know this, the US is not worried about The Hindu Bomb falling into the hands of the Hindutva-wadis. On the other hand, there IS serious concern about the Islamic Bomb.
[You are welcomed anytime in my house in Lahore...]
Yasser, dear boy, come to Chennai anytime you want. I will meet you at the airport and put you up at my home and show you around. It might actually open up your eyes as to the reality of India as opposed to what you read in the Frontier Post.
#135 Posted by pmishra2 on March 3, 2003 12:42:32 pm
No one is arguing that we have to re-hash history here over and over. However, when clueless interactors pretend that Savarkar invented communalism, or that Jinnah`s Direction Action Day and Narendra Modi`s Gaurav Yatra have no connection, then we have to return to history and establish some ground facts.
I have argued repeatedly that politicians like Nehru and Jinnah bungled the transfer of power from the British very badly. That their legacies include a certain amount of raw political maneuvering for which the price was finally paid in the 10`s of thousands of lives. I dont see this as being obsessed by the past.
Finally, pakistani respondents have to understand that fundamentally indians have no interest in them. This includes invasion, economic union, etc. etc. Other than some humanitarian interactions (divided families) there is no reason for wishing any other special relationship. Perhaps once Musharraf is out of the scene a cold peace may be possible some years out.
The accession of the state of Jammu and Kashmir to India involved a special relationship between the indian union and J&K. This needs to be restored with some creativity in place.
This is the course that intelligent commentators like Sumit Ganguly has repeatedly stressed and highlighted (and people like ylh and sarwari have repeatedly called Sumit Ganguly a hindu fascist!). I can easily imagine a future in which the Kashmir valley receives the grant of autonomy it seeks (``azadi``), while the remainder of J&K is bound closer to India. All of this requires peace, the return of pandits and normal economic ties. None of this is possible as long as the madrassahs keep churning out their mad murderers.
I have argued repeatedly that politicians like Nehru and Jinnah bungled the transfer of power from the British very badly. That their legacies include a certain amount of raw political maneuvering for which the price was finally paid in the 10`s of thousands of lives. I dont see this as being obsessed by the past.
Finally, pakistani respondents have to understand that fundamentally indians have no interest in them. This includes invasion, economic union, etc. etc. Other than some humanitarian interactions (divided families) there is no reason for wishing any other special relationship. Perhaps once Musharraf is out of the scene a cold peace may be possible some years out.
The accession of the state of Jammu and Kashmir to India involved a special relationship between the indian union and J&K. This needs to be restored with some creativity in place.
This is the course that intelligent commentators like Sumit Ganguly has repeatedly stressed and highlighted (and people like ylh and sarwari have repeatedly called Sumit Ganguly a hindu fascist!). I can easily imagine a future in which the Kashmir valley receives the grant of autonomy it seeks (``azadi``), while the remainder of J&K is bound closer to India. All of this requires peace, the return of pandits and normal economic ties. None of this is possible as long as the madrassahs keep churning out their mad murderers.
#136 Posted by tahmed32 on March 3, 2003 8:45:25 pm
pmishra2 #135 you write ``However, when clueless interactors pretend that Savarkar invented communalism, or that Jinnah`s Direction Action Day and Narendra Modi`s Gaurav Yatra have no connection, then we have to return to history and establish some ground facts``
I admit to being the clueless interactor who discussed Savarkar with you. Actually, I had mentioned the pomp and show with which Savarkar`s picture was placed next to Gandhi`s in the halls of the Indian Parliament - and this wasnt ancient history, this happened earlier this week. You twist this to ``Savarkar invented communalism``, and drag in events that took place half a century ago.
Thanks to you I am no longer clueless. I am well clued into how easily you twist things to prove whatever stupid point you are trying to prove.
I admit to being the clueless interactor who discussed Savarkar with you. Actually, I had mentioned the pomp and show with which Savarkar`s picture was placed next to Gandhi`s in the halls of the Indian Parliament - and this wasnt ancient history, this happened earlier this week. You twist this to ``Savarkar invented communalism``, and drag in events that took place half a century ago.
Thanks to you I am no longer clueless. I am well clued into how easily you twist things to prove whatever stupid point you are trying to prove.
#137 Posted by sadna on March 3, 2003 8:45:25 pm
rsridhar #131
Please don`t generalize saying `except Muslims`. Thats not true, thats not been my experience and moreover isn`t that a rather hurtful comment to come across in a apolitical discussion about apolitical things.
btw, did you see the photo in #111 :)?
Pankaj #121
I too have always noticed the fundamental similarities under the more visible cultural/religious differences. I am just wary of using the word `civilisation` because this word seems to have acquired negative connotations in recent times.
I would imagine there is similar abundance of diversity in Pakistan and similar soceital trend towards increased mutual interaction after 1947. For example if PM Jamali had been only a Balochi(and not Pakistani as well) he could at most have been PM of only a few million Balochis. Now he is able to exercise his native Balochi genius(for example) in a much wider scope or theatre, and put it to service of a much larger group of people.
Please don`t generalize saying `except Muslims`. Thats not true, thats not been my experience and moreover isn`t that a rather hurtful comment to come across in a apolitical discussion about apolitical things.
btw, did you see the photo in #111 :)?
Pankaj #121
I too have always noticed the fundamental similarities under the more visible cultural/religious differences. I am just wary of using the word `civilisation` because this word seems to have acquired negative connotations in recent times.
I would imagine there is similar abundance of diversity in Pakistan and similar soceital trend towards increased mutual interaction after 1947. For example if PM Jamali had been only a Balochi(and not Pakistani as well) he could at most have been PM of only a few million Balochis. Now he is able to exercise his native Balochi genius(for example) in a much wider scope or theatre, and put it to service of a much larger group of people.
#138 Posted by jay on March 4, 2003 3:03:24 am
Walkout over `selective` implementation of girl child scheme
By Our Special Correspondent
HYDERABAD March 3. Congress and CPI (M) members staged a walkout in the Assembly on Monday protesting over the refusal of the Government to give an assurance on extending financial assistance to all BPL families under the Girl Child Protection Scheme.
Earlier, Congress members stalled the proceedings of the House demanding an apology from the Minister for Industries, K.Vidyadhar Rao, for his remarks against a Congress member, Vanama Venkateswara Rao.
The Leader of the Opposition, Y.S. Rajasekhara Reddy, charged the Government with going back on its promise of extending the scheme to all families. Several restrictions were being applied to deny the facility to many. Second girl child was not being given the assistance and it was limited to only single child families.
Dr. Rajasekhara Reddy said the assistance had been extended to only two lakh families whereas there were 1.2 crore BPL families in the State. The pending applications -- 21,361 -- pertained to only single child families and other applications had been rejected, he contended. The Chief Minister had promised to apply the scheme to every girl child born in the BPL family during elections by assuring the poor that he would be the ``Mena Mama`` (maternal uncle) for the girl.
(Later talking to presspersons he called the Chief Minister ``Kamsa Mama` (Kamsa of the Bhagavatha). Another Congress member, K.R. Suresh Reddy, said the Minister for Finance, Y. Ramakrishnudu, and the Minister for Women and Child Welfare, Saraswathi, were ``misinforming`` the House on the issue. The target had been reduced compared to last year and there was no proper clarification forthcoming on the reason, he said.
///In india we talk about female child killings, recognise it as a problem, accept the reality and even come up with some ingenious ways to reduce it. In pakistan ahmadias are killed, hindu temples are destroyed in spontaneous reaction to babri masjid demolition, only PM has ever posted this info, well the honour killings, what honour killings...well education is awaste of resources for pakistanis. No wonder that nadrassas are flourishing and in terms of human values, an educated tahmed is no different from the jihadic sayed from faisalabad.
By Our Special Correspondent
HYDERABAD March 3. Congress and CPI (M) members staged a walkout in the Assembly on Monday protesting over the refusal of the Government to give an assurance on extending financial assistance to all BPL families under the Girl Child Protection Scheme.
Earlier, Congress members stalled the proceedings of the House demanding an apology from the Minister for Industries, K.Vidyadhar Rao, for his remarks against a Congress member, Vanama Venkateswara Rao.
The Leader of the Opposition, Y.S. Rajasekhara Reddy, charged the Government with going back on its promise of extending the scheme to all families. Several restrictions were being applied to deny the facility to many. Second girl child was not being given the assistance and it was limited to only single child families.
Dr. Rajasekhara Reddy said the assistance had been extended to only two lakh families whereas there were 1.2 crore BPL families in the State. The pending applications -- 21,361 -- pertained to only single child families and other applications had been rejected, he contended. The Chief Minister had promised to apply the scheme to every girl child born in the BPL family during elections by assuring the poor that he would be the ``Mena Mama`` (maternal uncle) for the girl.
(Later talking to presspersons he called the Chief Minister ``Kamsa Mama` (Kamsa of the Bhagavatha). Another Congress member, K.R. Suresh Reddy, said the Minister for Finance, Y. Ramakrishnudu, and the Minister for Women and Child Welfare, Saraswathi, were ``misinforming`` the House on the issue. The target had been reduced compared to last year and there was no proper clarification forthcoming on the reason, he said.
///In india we talk about female child killings, recognise it as a problem, accept the reality and even come up with some ingenious ways to reduce it. In pakistan ahmadias are killed, hindu temples are destroyed in spontaneous reaction to babri masjid demolition, only PM has ever posted this info, well the honour killings, what honour killings...well education is awaste of resources for pakistanis. No wonder that nadrassas are flourishing and in terms of human values, an educated tahmed is no different from the jihadic sayed from faisalabad.
#139 Posted by jay on March 4, 2003 3:03:24 am
JINNAH IS DEAD, TNT IS ALIVE,
The pakistanis are again trying to say that theirs is a progressive contry not shackeled by TNT. Take the case of dawood ibrahim, he is an indian citizen, he killed more that 200 people inbombay and escaped to pakistan. He is a well protected guest in pakistan simply because his action are in tune with the direct action call, his past is not very different from that of many pakistanis who left india, he has done something akin to what the pak jihadists are doing by slipping into pakistan. It is the ideology of TNT that keeps ibrahim in pakistan, no pakistani, even on the chowk wants to say anything about ibrahim.
The great jinnah and TNT dead posters can come up with one reason other than TNT for the flourishing of ibrahim in pakistan, it would be a surprise. In the garb of decency, dead history and peace on chowk, the ilks of tahmed are only supporting dawood ibrahim.
The pakistanis are again trying to say that theirs is a progressive contry not shackeled by TNT. Take the case of dawood ibrahim, he is an indian citizen, he killed more that 200 people inbombay and escaped to pakistan. He is a well protected guest in pakistan simply because his action are in tune with the direct action call, his past is not very different from that of many pakistanis who left india, he has done something akin to what the pak jihadists are doing by slipping into pakistan. It is the ideology of TNT that keeps ibrahim in pakistan, no pakistani, even on the chowk wants to say anything about ibrahim.
The great jinnah and TNT dead posters can come up with one reason other than TNT for the flourishing of ibrahim in pakistan, it would be a surprise. In the garb of decency, dead history and peace on chowk, the ilks of tahmed are only supporting dawood ibrahim.
#140 Posted by FarooqA on March 4, 2003 8:28:01 am
Its mere naivety on the part of Javed Akhtar to suggest that the Hindu communalism is just a reaction of Muslim communalism, the argument cuts both ways, may be the Muslim communalism in India is the end product of the Hindu fundamentalism.
#141 Posted by stuka on March 4, 2003 8:28:01 am
RSridhar:
``To be democratic in a diverse nation, one has to appreciate and assimilate in that diversity. Indians (barring the muslims) are doing that everyday.``
Your claim to secularism runs very hollow. The Muslims of India are more politically aware than than the Muslims of any other country. Besides, how can you sit in judgement of 12 Crore people? I am disgusted by your statement.
``To be democratic in a diverse nation, one has to appreciate and assimilate in that diversity. Indians (barring the muslims) are doing that everyday.``
Your claim to secularism runs very hollow. The Muslims of India are more politically aware than than the Muslims of any other country. Besides, how can you sit in judgement of 12 Crore people? I am disgusted by your statement.
#142 Posted by rsridhar on March 4, 2003 8:28:39 am
re:#136 by sadna
I am not trying to generalise. Besides, your experience is different from mine.
Did you see the muslims in India come out and celebrate India`s victory against Pakis in cricket? Here was a great opportunity. Cricket, among other things, binds Indians like nothing else does. Well meaning muslims chose to remain silent. Some miscreants cheered the Pakistanis creating trouble in Banglore and other places.
It is entirely possible that VHP and other elements were also involved. But the point is, when the entire nation was celebrating, the muslims of India were not visible in that celebration. What have they to lose? After all, there were 2 muslim cricketers in the team. This is just an eg i gave. It is a fact that majority of muslims in India do not try to assimilate. Your experience (in Kerala) may be different. That does not still change the picture.
More and more younger generation Indians in India are associating muslims and Islam with Pakistan. It is for the muslims to come out and say emphatically where they belong.
Sridhar
I am not trying to generalise. Besides, your experience is different from mine.
Did you see the muslims in India come out and celebrate India`s victory against Pakis in cricket? Here was a great opportunity. Cricket, among other things, binds Indians like nothing else does. Well meaning muslims chose to remain silent. Some miscreants cheered the Pakistanis creating trouble in Banglore and other places.
It is entirely possible that VHP and other elements were also involved. But the point is, when the entire nation was celebrating, the muslims of India were not visible in that celebration. What have they to lose? After all, there were 2 muslim cricketers in the team. This is just an eg i gave. It is a fact that majority of muslims in India do not try to assimilate. Your experience (in Kerala) may be different. That does not still change the picture.
More and more younger generation Indians in India are associating muslims and Islam with Pakistan. It is for the muslims to come out and say emphatically where they belong.
Sridhar
#143 Posted by sadna on March 4, 2003 9:40:48 am
rsridhar #142
``Did you see the muslims in India come out and celebrate India`s victory against Pakis in cricket?``
How would I or you `see` them even if they did rsridhar? Are you God with a million eyes to keep watch on 130 million people and pronounce judgement on them?
I read in a news report that Muslims came out to celebrate in Mumbai. But I donot need news reports. I am not better than my Muslim countrymen that they have to prove something to ME. Neither are you, rsridhar.
``Did you see the muslims in India come out and celebrate India`s victory against Pakis in cricket?``
How would I or you `see` them even if they did rsridhar? Are you God with a million eyes to keep watch on 130 million people and pronounce judgement on them?
I read in a news report that Muslims came out to celebrate in Mumbai. But I donot need news reports. I am not better than my Muslim countrymen that they have to prove something to ME. Neither are you, rsridhar.
#144 Posted by tahmed32 on March 4, 2003 1:11:02 pm
jay #138 you write ``the ilks of tahmed are only supporting dawood ibrahim. ``
Aha! Lies! So now you resort to the last resort of the scoundrel!! (If you dont agree, cut and paste anything I ever wrote about dawood ibrahim - he is just another one of your kind kind of subhumans.)
PS: Dont flatter yourself into thinking I read the rest of your post, given that I long ago started skipping over your boring, one-track posts. If you are not careful, you will bore yourself to death.
Aha! Lies! So now you resort to the last resort of the scoundrel!! (If you dont agree, cut and paste anything I ever wrote about dawood ibrahim - he is just another one of your kind kind of subhumans.)
PS: Dont flatter yourself into thinking I read the rest of your post, given that I long ago started skipping over your boring, one-track posts. If you are not careful, you will bore yourself to death.
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