Muslims in India: Communalism vs. Backwardness-Minority Syndrome

PS One thing I am particularly worried about is the characterization of Khushwant Singh as a `white supremacist` and `colonialist by Veeresh Malik :

1) It has no logic to it

2) will any Indian who is friendly to Pakistan be caricatured in these unflattering phrases? and if yes why?

-YLH

Jay and the Pakistan India Cricket Match,

According to Jay Cricket mirrors political realities (all of a sudden after Pakistan`s loss)... perhaps he will tell us what political reality is mirrored by the fact that Pakistan has won more than 60 games against India while India has won close to 30?

POLITICS/RELIGION and SPORT DON`T MIX you freakoid and there is a good reason for it. What happened was Sachin Tendulkar... that little master is a gem of a player, a genius at this sport... instead of thanking providence for him, freaks like Jay are busy establishing their idiotic notions of Indian racial superiority.

It was a pleasure watching Tendulkar bat, especially the cut for six against the over rated and loud mouth Shoaib... serves him right... Gharoor ka sar neecha... shoaib was going on and on about he is going to crush Tendulkar and the little master taught him a lesson. Perhaps a word also needs to be said for the excessive booing of Waqar Younis.. Magnanimity in victory sadly is a rare virtue... even for the little master.



Sameerjb`s posts numerous:

One thing I don`t understand how you are associating Chaudhry brothers
with the Pakistan movement.. if I understand correctly their father was sub-inspector ... it is only in the 1980s that they actively joined the new muslim league reinvented by the martial law regime and it is only recently that they have gotten to the position of ascendancy.

From a point of view of a Pakistani concerned about the intellectual cultural and social well being of Pakistan, I must there is much we can imbibe from the critical onslaught of Sameerjb that is if we can look past emotional extreme leftist ramblings (peoples` history vs elitist history, gandh-jinnah-nehru presided over killings etc) ...

These are the questions I wish to ask our Government:

1) Why have we abandoned the tradition gurmukhi and dev nagri script?

2) Why don`t we teach Hindi atleast on University level? I find that an average urdu reader in Pakistan is totally oblivious of some of the better works in Hindi literature... Munshi Prem Chand is a perfect bridge.. why isn`t enough attention paid to him?

3) Why isn`t gujurati taught in Karachi which has a large Gujurati speaking population (remember Jinnah was also gujurati speaking) ?

4) Why isn`t Punjabi taught in schools in Punjab and why isn`t the oath of office in Punjab administered in Punjabi?

I was amazed to find that Jinnah`s tomb the inscriptions are in gujurati in the traditional gujurati script... hence one can deduce that when the mausoleum was complete, this sad attitude had not yet crept into our mentality... one of the stated purposes of Pakistan as per the 1930 address of Iqbal was to save South Asian Islam from the stamp of Arab Imperialism and Jinnah himself had to intervene to block attempts by Agha Khan 3 and some Bengali leaguers asking to make Arabic the national language of Pakistan.

So how do we go about changing this trend of Arabicization that set in 2 decades ago, and how do we move towards more decentralization and greater provincial autonomy so that various ethnic nations don`t feel choked? Any thoughts Sameer? Or do you just criticize to win brownie points with the Indians?

-YLH

Yasser # 113, please be absolutely assured, that ``categorisation`` of Khushwant Singh`s status in India has nothing to do with his sentiments towards Pakistan. It is simply that if you as a Pakistani wish us as Indians well, then you would kindly take the trouble to secure a holistic view on Mr. Khushwant Singh`s attributes before making statements like Long Live KS India.

Thank you, it is always a pleasure debating with you.

BTW, did anybody see the Aaj Tak/Musharaf interview earlier today?

sadna #111

I realised many maynot be able to read the script in that photo. It said `Sun le beta Pakistan, Baap hai tera Hindustan` :).

#105 ylh2 (not much change here)

Have your or have you not publically proclaimed (on Chowk) your descent from arabs either connected to Mohammed or part of his slawe/servant retinue? Please answer YES or NO.

I will personally find your message in which you proclaimed your august descent and post to this list. It is clear that you are now passing from sophistry to plain lying, and the world needs to understand the mindset of individuals such as yourself.

As for your silly propaganda that indians consider people like Khushwant Singh traitors, consider the following facts: Mr. Singh is a regular columnist in about a dozen leading indian papers, his views are often quoted and discussed on a weekly basis in dozens of other magazines and papers.

Only an ideologue with vested interests would try to characterize Khushwant Singh as outside the indian mainstream. Some of us are also old enough to remember the khalistani insurgency and KHushwants denounciation of a Sikh theocratic state. For this his home was sandbagged against bombs and he had four armed guards for 10 years !! So lets not waste time on silly arguments about his grand-dad or grand-uncle or whatever.

quick comments: very interesting article. naive hope, ultra simplistic projection of theories.

``consociational model of democracy`` in effect divides nation into parts with unique governance?

sameer #12 very callous attitude my man. Taking away identity is not the solution.

Rajiv Gandhi two-facedness well brought out.

Pakistanis including SameerJB and Saima who talk of how ideally India should be many nations, I will like to ask you a personal question, tell me which of these nations should I go?

Let me explain I am Hindi speaking and my father is from Rajasthan but I have never lived in the Hindi-speaking areas of India(in fact neither did my mother, for most part). I was born and lived all my life in another state Kerala 2000 km away. If India is not one nation, please tell me, where do I belong? Is my(or any other Indian`s) identity supposed to be restricted to primarily the language I speak and the exact spot where my father was born? Or if I belong to the nation where I was born, are my parents to be foreigners, to be banished from where they have lived and worked for last many decades?

The other day I happened to meet a Malayalee who grew up in Mumbai, and we had a good laugh about how he had never lived in Kerala whereas I lived there most of my life, but he was the Malayalee speaking one and I was the Hindi speaking one. I have come across this situation many times, a Bengali colleague who grew up in Agra and married a Punjabi, a Kannada friend who grew up among peanut farmers in Gujarat, a Manipuri friend who has actually lived in Rastrapathi Bhavan as part of the President of India`s household(and at that time the President was a Tamilian).

I am not the only one, many of my friends and neighbours have parents from different regions or have themselves married people of other regions or religions or have moved out of `their` region and settled down elsewhere for work.

And its not only my generation. Almost 50 years ago when my father was leaving for studies abroad, in his hometown in Rajasthan, he paid farewell visits to a number of elders, including family friends who I now realise(being faced with this multiple nationhood issue on chowk) happened to be Malayalees. Tell me where do I belong and where do those Malayalees belong?

Our Army is integrated, our paramilitary forces are integrated, our central IPS cadre is integrated(for example you can find N.Indian police officials in S. India and vice versa) how do you propose it should be split?

Our bureacracy is integrated. One of my school classmates in Kerala was Sikh whose Sikh father was true blue Punjabi but his job was in the Kerala cadre and so he spoke better Malayalam than I who had grown up there. The other day I spotted my Malayalee school classmate on ZeeNews promoting tourism in Chattisgarh. He is a Indian Administrative Service officer in the Chattisgarh and is evidently assigned to the tourism department. I know from personal friends that he is married to a Punjabi or Hindi speaking N.Indian. A N.Indian family friend I grew up with in Kerala joined the Indian police service and ended up policing in W Bengal. If India is not one nation, but many nations which are better separate, tell me which nation should both these people go, where should they work? And I am just one Indian relating only PART of my experience with Indian diversity.

Perhaps Pakistanis donot comprehend the huge diversity of India, a diversity which has only grown since 1947. Dalits from N.India get together with Dalits of S.India on common issues. A Cong MP from Kerala is sent to sort out party issues in Maharashtra(for example) When terrorists kill sleeping laborers in Jammu, often its Bihari migrants who are killed. In the Gujarat riots, there were UP/Bihari Muslims also who were killed. In the TV news reportage of the Cauvery river dispute from Bangalore, one can see a Sikh (or two) accompanying the Karnataka CM. A Sikkimese woman was India`s Foreign secretary, a person from the Khasi tribal community in Meghalaya is presently India`s Chief Election Commissioner who made the decisions about elections in Gujarat and J&K.

In summary, our institutions are integrated to a large extent, our lives are integrated to a large extent, our national consciouness is integrated to a large extent, and face it, an Indian currency note has at least 11 languages on it. An Indian from a given region and their talents are not restricted to that region, he/she has the run of the entire country, its institutions and the scope the whole country offers.

The Indian challenge is NOT to repudiate all this and split this consciousness up and restrict people to their `own` regions `for their own best interests` as Pakistanis keep asserting, its to expand the national consciousness and expand the scope for achievement so that no group, or region or individual is left out.

The idea that Tamils cannot live with Kannadas and Keralites cannot live with Maharashtrians so all Kannadigas must leave the rest of India and go back to Karnataka and all Keralites must return to Kerala, that Punjabis in Tamil Nadu or Kolkatta must leave and go back to Punjab and all Maharashtrians in N Delhi must leave N. Delhi and go back to Maharashtra, etc and
that the borders must be drawn around areas which are to be ethnically or linguistically cleansed in Indians` `best interest`, sorry to say such an idea can only occur to someone either not adequately informed OR a determined enemy of modern Indians who wants to see India go through a thousand-fold magnified repeat of the dance of death in 1947.

Every community should fight the ogre of communalism. For minorities there cannot be a better and safer system than secularism. However, for secularism to work all communities must adopt secularist attitudes. Christian missionaries who proselytize aggressively are as dangerous to secularism as Hindutva leaders. The same goes for Muslim leaders. If we confine our religion within our homes, the majority will also do the same. I have had no problems with Hindus although I know some enthusiastic missionaries who have been threatened. I have seen Hindus becoming more and more conscious of being had by others. I think that is a natural reaction for which we cant blame Hindus.

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Sadna

India, IMO, is a civilization state. It transcends the nation states defined on the basis of language, religion or sects/castes. There is so much overlapping and intermixing at every level that it can not be but one country. The diversity is all too visible on the surface- diversity in language, dress, lifestyles etc. What is not readily observable is the similarity beneath the surface - similarity arising out of culture/traditions, no doubt shaped by four millenia of common history; and similarity in the thought patterns and the shared fundamental value sets, a by-product of the civilizational consciousness. The languages may be different across India but they tell the same tale. India is more closely knit than what many people including some indians think. I had a first hand experience of this fact when I visited Trichy, located in the extreme South, for my summer internship a few years back. Secondly, with the economic growth, the mobility of the labour market in India has grown tremendously. This intermixing of populations, driven by the economic factors, has further blurred the boundaries. In due course of time, the economic factors will promote a common metropolitan culture emerging in the multiple centers of India further increasing the interdependence of diverse peoples. Although India is well integrated as far as culture (civilization) is concerned, I believe it has to go a long way before it becomes a well integrated economic zone. That, IMO, will be the pinnacle of the civilization state of India.

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#119 by sadna
Take my example. My mom spent all her growing up years in Delhi, Simla and Bhopal; my dad was born a Kanndiga, had his education in Hydarabad and came to Maharashtra for work. I was concived in Assam (I am told), was born in Bhopal, and have lived all my life (except for 2 years that I spent in Chennai working as IT soldier) in that bashon of `Marathi` ness - Pune. I am the walking example of National Integration :) The thing is, no matter where I am in India, I have never felt like an outsider. So much for India-will-break-up-into-4-5-nations-once-Kashmir-is-solved-theories.

To Pakistanis and Indians on Chowk:

Jinnah is dead. Gandhi is dead. Jinnah or Gandhi`s dream or vision or hopes or fears died with them. Both were men; politicans and whether they were good or bad, wise or foolish, brave or weak is a question not to be decided through personalized embitterness or rancour. Whether they made mistakes or not is a academic debate, which will never solve the problems facing Pakistan or India. Yes, they can be said to have contributed to the problems facing Pakistan and India, but that pales in comparsion to the question of how those problems are to addressed and solved.

They belong to history. The reality of partition is that it was a series of mistakes compounded by a lack of compromise on all sides. The problems of India will solved by Indians just like the problems of Pakistan will be solved by Pakistanis without blaming one another and I can assure you, the problems in both the nations will never be solved as long as we blame each other for our misfortunes and mistakes.

Both India and Pakistan, if they are to progress, have to move beyond the insecurities of parition and its aftermath and to accept the reality of their present, without seeking the impossible by making their future a mirror of what their past was once. Hate and finger pointing has to give way to tolerance and understanding and the arrogance of history, which justifies the hatred between the two nations, has to yeild to humility; humility based on the awareness that both India and Pakistan are flawed. Both India and Pakistan are flawed, because their leaders are flawed by the virtue of being human beings and not demi-gods of omniscience. Humility comes not only from accepting one`s own faults, but in tolerating the other person`s faults as well.

Does hate ever solve anything? Has placing the blame ever solved anything? If not, then why pursue an endeavor, which is so futile and without any merit?

Ciao

YLH and other peace nicks,

It amazing to see these good hearted people talking about economic progress, how the progress of india is tied to that of pakistan.

It is time that pakistanis accept the fact that with or woth out peace with pakistan india will progress. Every country need to have military spending and the indian expenditure of 3 percent of GDP, around 15 percentage of budget is not very high. Importantly india has the fundamentals right, an educated population, democratic system and it is self sustaining. India has high saving rate, finally an image of confidence and competance.

With 40 percent of the budget on military, the rest for dbt repayment, no educational infrastructure and with its great image there is no hope for pakistan. Only way the pak military bidget can be reduced is through a peace deal with india. India should ignore pakistan, tell pakistan to continue with jihadic attacks, acquire sofisticated military equipment, integrate military production and weapons exports. Eventually there could a time when pakistan can contained by routime bombing raids as in palestine.

At last indians are accepting the fact that there can be no peace on jihadic frontier, it can only be acceptable kill ratios. With the return of taliban and alquida from afghanistan, the jihadisation of pakistan is expected to accelerate. Jihadic Republic of Pakistan has a ring to it.

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