Muslims in India: Communalism vs. Backwardness-Minority Syndrome

rsridhar # 142
Yes, they did. As per newspaper reports, a big group of them in Kolkata were celeberating India`s victory and were beaten up by a few (12) who were pro pak.
In any case I don`t think any one of us have any business in questioning any body`s loyalty just because some people did n`t wear their happiness on sleave. Yes, if people are openly pro-pak, then we do tend to resent, rightly or wrongly, i don`t know. But still I don`t think this is such a big issue.
Regards

re:#141 by FarooqA
Both hindu and muslim fundamentalism have existed since independence. Hindu extremist views stood discredited after the assasination of Gandhiji. These views never found a mass appeal until recently. But there have always been supporters belonging to the fringe elements since independence.
Today, BJP has latched on to fighting terrorism (by implication ``islamic terrorism) as a political tool. By equating terrorism with Islam, BJP seeks to isolate muslims and benefit from hindu votes.
Indian muslims can turn the tide against BJP by coming out in force against fundamentalism.
Sridhar

re:#140 by stuka
My secularism has nothing to do with all this. We have to confront realities. Besides, this is not my view alone. After all, my views do not count for much. I live in US and i just share some experiences that i have had during my stay in India. That is all.
More importantly, people like Rafiq Zakaria have been pointing to the widening gulf between the 2 communities and the ``Ostrich-like`` attitude of Indian muslims. Little introspection went on as to where the community is headed since independence. Muslims were treated as a ``vote bank`` by Congress. Much of the secular attitudes of Congress era is dissipating and a new crop of politicians (like Modi) are raring to change the way hindus think and act. Muslims in India today face a real danger of being completely isolated. They need to do what is in their best interest. Closing their eyes to the happenings around them will not help.
Sridhar

#142 by rsridhar, #143 by sadna

Sridhar, though you say your conclusion is based on experience, you cannot generalize it. I have quite a few Muslim friends, and I can vouch for their patriotism. During a match, they root for India as much as I do. Why, just the other day, when India was playing Pakistan, I visited a hospital in which my uncle was sharing a room with an elderly Muslim lady. Every Tendulkar shot was lustily cheered by her relatives (who`d come to visit her), and she herself was very dejected when Tendulya eventually got out. Now, that`s my experience. What do I make of it?

re:#143 by sadna
Read Rafiq Zakaria`s views on Indian muslims. Unlike you and me, he is considered an expert on Islam and has been writing books and researching on matters concerning Indian muslims.
Excerpts from the book ``Communal Rage in Secular India``:

1. ``Indian Muslims must try and become an integral part of the mainstream`; `get out of their ghetto mentality`; `do some introspection`. If asked `whether they have genuinely tried to contribute to the strengthening of Hindu-Muslim relations since Partition`, the `answer will be no.``

2. ``They must open their eyes to the ground reality that an increasing number of Hindus have begun to hate them...it has infected the rich as much as the poor; men as much as women; the young as much as the old. Even children are no longer free from it.``

3. ``Instead of coming out openly against Pakistan and taking a strong stand against the jihadis, the so-called guardians of Indian Muslims spend most of their time in running their own political shops to buttress their communal leadership.``

4. ``Muslims are multiplying fast, much more than Hindus. The Census figures, decade after decade, confirm it. Muslims have not taken to family planning `as seriously as the Hindus`; this has to be corrected. ``Indian Muslims must disown the bigotism which has made Muslims pariahs everywhere. They must give to non-Muslims the assurance that their religion stands for `live and let live.` ``Instead of talking it over with Hindus, `confrontation was adopted` by Muslims on the Babri masjid issue, giving `rise to more hatred against the Muslims.` ``There is meaningless `controversy` about Muslims singing Vande Mataram. Muslims `must stand up when it is sung as a mark of respect to an anthem,` which has a hoary past.``

Being secular does not mean being blind to the realities. The reality is that there is a widening gulf between the 2 communities and muslims in India need to take pro-active steps to bridge the gap. They cannot continue to sleep under the shadow of pseudo-secularism of the Nehruvian era.
Sridhar

``Are you God with a million eyes to keep watch on 130 million people and pronounce judgement on them?

I read in a news report that Muslims came out to celebrate in Mumbai. But I donot need news reports. I am not better than my Muslim countrymen that they have to prove something to ME. Neither are you, rsridhar.``(sadna)

well said dhukhtar-e aalaa-e Hind -- Sadna Begum!

sadna & Pankaj: My comments in the previous post were about `what should have been`. I am not advocating break up of India and Pakistan under current circumstances. However, circumstances and with it opinions can change. Only one sentence in that lengthy post, `Islamabad and New Delhi should be like Strossburg (Europian Union Headquarter in France)` vaguely pointed to more national (I consider Panjabi, Tamil, Bengali,...................nations) independence without stressing upon the level or model and definitely through muyual agreement and peaceful means.

The question of being at ease all over or having diverse family or experience is minor thing. Nations under friendly relationship do not stop people from traveling or marrying outside culture. Much more Americans and Canadians inter-marry and travel freely; same is true for Europeans. I agree with Pankaj that India is more like a major part of Indian civilization. But a civilization does not have to have same culture, language or country. I am very opposed to one of everything route in order to create unity or harmony.

Even in diasporic desis, culture based relationship are dominating over national based organizations. Three largest groups in NY/ NJ, namely Gujratis, Bengalis and Panjabis interact predominantly within culture.

rsridhar: I suppose Hindus should also have proven acceptance of Muslims in Gujrat elections by rejecting Narendra Modi and BJP. How can you expect Muslims to show emotions in the middle of riots breaking out in Ahmedabad after Indian victory. It takes two to tango.

On one side you and many other keep talking telling us that Pakistan does not matter for most Indians (something like India is about to reach for stars with 460 dollars per capita income and Pakistan is in the dirt with paltry 450 dollars per capita income) and it is Pakistan out there to prove un-Indianness at every opportunity. Did India celebrate same way when they beat England? I did not hear any rioting after India beat England.

In one area, Indian movie industry Muslims have been well represented for all 56 years since independence. When did they not prove their Indianness? Name one movie by a Muslm which could be considered pro-Pakistan or anti-Hindu. The fact is that whenever and whoever got a chance to serve India, they did to the best of their abilities. The issue of trying too much to preserve a distinct orthodox and conservative Muslim identity is onething which I also have often disliked but to make it anti-Indian is not true. Both parties on eitehr side of Babri Masjid as well as Gujrat riots were equally Indian. A person tearing down the mosque can no way claim to be more Indian than the one who is trying to stop him from doing it. However, one party was taking the law into their own hand.

I suggest Indian Muslims to try to become more nationalistic in cultural sense. Become ardent Bengali, Marathi, Gujrati, Tamils etc instead of taking refuge in religion or behind Gandhi-Nehru ideals. They should vote local parties instead of major national level parties like Congress or BJP.

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Sameer JB ji
``How can you expect Muslims to show emotions in the middle of riots breaking out in Ahmedabad after Indian victory. It takes two to tango.``

You are right about it takes two to tango. In Gujarat, as per reports riots started when Victory procession of over enthusiastic people after India`s win over Pakistan was pelted with stones etc., I guess by miscreants wanting to create peoblem. Anyhow, Police should have been prepared in advance or it should not have allowed that procession to go through senstive areas.
Regards

P.S. Tussi punjabi channel band kyoN kar ditta?

WHO IS A PAKISTANI,

When the sheikh chappie, the alquida man was arrested the pak interior minister said that he is going no where, he is a pakistani. Now that he is on the way to quantanamo bay, pakistanis are telling that even though he had a pak pass port he was not a pakistani.

I can hear the buzzing of the crowd, lilaha illalla pakistan ka matlab kya. There are times when one had to feel ashamed of ones country, the time has come for pakistanis.

Dawood Ibrahim, he is a proud honoured guest to their country, he is like many in pakistan, a jihadist returned after mission in india.

``I suggest Indian Muslims to try to become more nationalistic in cultural sense. Become ardent Bengali, Marathi, Gujrati, Tamils etc instead of taking refuge in religion or behind Gandhi-Nehru ideals``(sameerjb)

a great UNIFYING advice sameerjb -- to the citizens of a land -- DIVIDED -- by 360 languages, dialects, castes, creeds, sects, religions:-)

what makes you think that a Bihari Muslim is not an idiot Bihari first – and then a Muslim -- or a Bengali Muslim is not a cunning Bengali first?

your championing of `petty provincialism` is astoundingly amusing –

-- no thanks:--)

Humsab: I have the power to open but not close any thread. It was just dropped out of front page access after about 1200 posts. Now Dullabhatti will soon start a new one to replace the old one.

Waving flag or celebrating exuberantly is just one minor form of patriotism. In US also, blacks and Hispanics take less interest in celebrating independence day. The important thing for the citizens of a country is be law-abiding citizen as best form of patriotism. While Indian Muslims can be criticized for too Islamic, following retrogressive practices that lead to backwardness but that is not against any law. A person praying over and over without taking care of wordly affairs is bad but not law breaking. No law in India stops people from practicing their religion vigorously. On the other hand a cheering patriotic crowd might be law breaking by raising communal slogans, delivering hateful speeches, blocking traffic or throwing stone at community they do not like.

I dislike Musharraf for this very reason without challenging his patriotism. Similalry those who break law in India should be more criticized than stupidity without breaking any law. The law breakers in any civil society should pay for the crime be he Musharraf, mastermind of Al-Qaeda or the one who planned murder of 2300 Sikhs following Indira assassination or mastermind of Gujrat riots or the people who killed thousands in Mumbai following Babri Mosque destruction. Once some of them scotfree due to the power behind them, it decreases the enthusiasm of the losing community for active participation.

So, the first step towards patriotic and civil society is respect for the law and justice for all. A crime is a crime no matter how one looks at it and stupidity of certain cultural/ religious practices itself delivers justice in the form of backwarness and decline in the standards of living.

Well sameerJB you cannot absolve India of being an oppressive society for dalits and minorities by slandering Musharraf, he has as little to with India`s internal conflicts as Vajpayee may have with Pakistan`s internal problems, like all other Indian and Pakistani leaders he is a victim of complex circumstances. For God`s sake dont talk nonsense simply to prove that you are a pure and unadultrated Indian.

FarooqA:

You don`t get it do you? Read his post again..where is he absolving India?

In fact his statement that the lawbreakers should be punished, be they in Maharashtra, Gujarat or Delhi, takes to task the Indian establishment for not implementing the law correctly.

Please show me which exact sentence inplies that Musharraf is responsible for India`s internal dynamics?

LOL Sadna - thanks for posting this link :-) RSridhar could you take a good look (CHASHMA laga kay please)!!! Would you say the Bharat Army (http://www.bharatarmy.com/) are not loyal Brits too ?

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=298427

For those who can`t read Hindi - the sign says

Sun lay beta Pakistan - Baap hai tera Hindustan

Rshridhar # 142

“I am not trying to generalise. Besides, your experience is different from mine.
Did you see the muslims in India come out and celebrate India`s victory against Pakis in cricket? Here was a great opportunity. Cricket, among other things, binds Indians like nothing else does. Well meaning muslims chose to remain silent. Some miscreants cheered the Pakistanis creating trouble in Banglore and other places. “

Hey what about the celebrations in Mahim (Mumbai), Old Delhi, Jamia (Delhi) etc. All these are overwhelming muslim areas. I am not sure how many non muslims were part of these celebrations but these are overwhelming muslim areas.

“It is entirely possible that VHP and other elements were also involved. But the point is, when the entire nation was celebrating, the muslims of India were not visible in that celebration. What have they to lose? After all, there were 2 muslim cricketers in the team.”

What about the celebrations in front of Kaif`s house. Did you confirm that all the folks there were non muslim ?

“ This is just an eg i gave. It is a fact that majority of muslims in India do not try to assimilate. Your experience (in Kerala) may be different. That does not still change the picture. “

You chose a bad example. The problem is not what happened but what you choose to see, that does change the picture.

“More and more younger generation Indians in India are associating muslims and Islam with Pakistan. It is for the muslims to come out and say emphatically where they belong.
Sridhar “

There is no gainsaying that fundamentalism is on the rise in India and Indian muslims are as much to blame as everyone else. But the Indian muslims have come out emphatically where they belong, they chose to stay in India after partition .You started out by saying that you don`t want to generalise, but its exactly what you are trying to do. You are trying to pin a stereotype on the Indian muslims. You are trying to justify your bigotry by trying the victim.

Faruk.