Muslims in India: Communalism vs. Backwardness-Minority Syndrome
Zafar Anjum February 27, 2003
#49 Posted by nakhok on February 28, 2003 12:38:58 pm
#27 by nazarhayatkhan
India is a status quo power. Regardless of its current public stance, India will gladly agree to turning the LOC into a permanent international border. It is Pakistan that feels that it must acquire the entire Jammu & Kashmir to ``finish the unfinished business of partition.``
Pakistan`s ruling elite has a vested interest to paint India as the eternal enemy of Pakistan. It will continue to do so even if India were to aquiesce to the permanent exile of all residents of Jammu & Kashmir whose ethnicity, ideology or faith does not meet the approval of Pakistan`s ruling elite and even if India were to hand over the entire state of Jammu & Kashmir on a platter to Pakistan.
When Pakistan`s military swears by:
(1) the ``martial race theory``
(2) asserts that one Pakistani soldier can take care of ten ``Hindu`` soldiers or,
(3) promises compatriots that they will unfurl Pakistan`s flag at the Red Fort,
it does so, not because it believes in the bluster, but because that makes it easier for the military to usurp a disproportionate share of the country`s wealth for the Kakul kleptocrats.
In real life, Pakistan`s military has always been far tougher on its own citizens, most of them unarmed, than on armed soldiers of ``enemy`` countries. Thus, General Tikka Khan is far better known to the world as the Butcher of Bengal and as the Butcher of Balochistan than as the Knight in shining armor who will ride his big white horse to the Red Fort to unfurl Pakistan`s flag.
When Pakistan`s military breathes fire, it is to ``prove`` to Pakistani citizens that the military is indispensable to the nation`s welfare. But this is nothing but a fraud because the primary aim is to make sure that Pakistan`s army can continue steal a disproportinate share of the country`s wealth for itself.
I have no reason to believe that Pakistan`s ruling elite cares any more for justice in Jammu & Kashmir than it cares for justice for the residents in Pakistan itself or for justice to the ``Biharis`` left to rot in refugee camps for 3 decades.
Those that had preached, ``Haske liya Pakistan, ladke lenge Hindustan,`` on the morrow of independence, those that continue to preach, ``One Pakistani soldier is more than ten ``Hindu`` soldiers,`` will not change their tune or stance even if Jammu & Kashmir is handed over to them on a platter. They have a strong need to have India as an enemy country to justify the usurption of a disproportionate share of the nation`s wealth for themselves.
Pakistan`s military lobby was strong enough to force the break-away of the majority of Pakistanis in 1971 in order to preserve its own interest in the rest of the country. Today, it is just as determined to perpetuate conflict with India and for the very same reason. Jammu & Kashmir is merely the most convenient excuse at the moment. But, in its absence, it won`t take long for Pakistan`s military to find yet another excuse.
But there is a limit to what the people will tolerate. And when the Kakul kleptocrats exhausted the patience of the long suffering ordinary citizens of Pakistan, the Tsunami of their wrath did not spare even the Ayub Khans and the Yahya Khans. It will not spare Pervez Musharraf either.
India is a status quo power. Regardless of its current public stance, India will gladly agree to turning the LOC into a permanent international border. It is Pakistan that feels that it must acquire the entire Jammu & Kashmir to ``finish the unfinished business of partition.``
Pakistan`s ruling elite has a vested interest to paint India as the eternal enemy of Pakistan. It will continue to do so even if India were to aquiesce to the permanent exile of all residents of Jammu & Kashmir whose ethnicity, ideology or faith does not meet the approval of Pakistan`s ruling elite and even if India were to hand over the entire state of Jammu & Kashmir on a platter to Pakistan.
When Pakistan`s military swears by:
(1) the ``martial race theory``
(2) asserts that one Pakistani soldier can take care of ten ``Hindu`` soldiers or,
(3) promises compatriots that they will unfurl Pakistan`s flag at the Red Fort,
it does so, not because it believes in the bluster, but because that makes it easier for the military to usurp a disproportionate share of the country`s wealth for the Kakul kleptocrats.
In real life, Pakistan`s military has always been far tougher on its own citizens, most of them unarmed, than on armed soldiers of ``enemy`` countries. Thus, General Tikka Khan is far better known to the world as the Butcher of Bengal and as the Butcher of Balochistan than as the Knight in shining armor who will ride his big white horse to the Red Fort to unfurl Pakistan`s flag.
When Pakistan`s military breathes fire, it is to ``prove`` to Pakistani citizens that the military is indispensable to the nation`s welfare. But this is nothing but a fraud because the primary aim is to make sure that Pakistan`s army can continue steal a disproportinate share of the country`s wealth for itself.
I have no reason to believe that Pakistan`s ruling elite cares any more for justice in Jammu & Kashmir than it cares for justice for the residents in Pakistan itself or for justice to the ``Biharis`` left to rot in refugee camps for 3 decades.
Those that had preached, ``Haske liya Pakistan, ladke lenge Hindustan,`` on the morrow of independence, those that continue to preach, ``One Pakistani soldier is more than ten ``Hindu`` soldiers,`` will not change their tune or stance even if Jammu & Kashmir is handed over to them on a platter. They have a strong need to have India as an enemy country to justify the usurption of a disproportionate share of the nation`s wealth for themselves.
Pakistan`s military lobby was strong enough to force the break-away of the majority of Pakistanis in 1971 in order to preserve its own interest in the rest of the country. Today, it is just as determined to perpetuate conflict with India and for the very same reason. Jammu & Kashmir is merely the most convenient excuse at the moment. But, in its absence, it won`t take long for Pakistan`s military to find yet another excuse.
But there is a limit to what the people will tolerate. And when the Kakul kleptocrats exhausted the patience of the long suffering ordinary citizens of Pakistan, the Tsunami of their wrath did not spare even the Ayub Khans and the Yahya Khans. It will not spare Pervez Musharraf either.
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#50 Posted by tahmed32 on February 28, 2003 1:47:26 pm
ylh2 #43 you write ``again I extend my hand of friendship to the self proclaimed Gandhians on this board... (but ofcourse once again I only expect to be snubbed, harrassed and abused)... ``
Try ``ignored``. Instead of ``snubbed, harassed and abused``. :-)
Try ``ignored``. Instead of ``snubbed, harassed and abused``. :-)
#51 Posted by UmerMurtaza on February 28, 2003 3:58:44 pm
Sameer JB,
`Take away their identity`,
Yeah, much like Stalin took away the identities of Central Asians, imposed Russian and rewrote their history. A bit like that, I assume?
Is this what Buddhism teaches you?
Umer M.
`Take away their identity`,
Yeah, much like Stalin took away the identities of Central Asians, imposed Russian and rewrote their history. A bit like that, I assume?
Is this what Buddhism teaches you?
Umer M.
#52 Posted by Tipu on February 28, 2003 3:58:44 pm
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#53 Posted by temporal on February 28, 2003 3:58:45 pm
tahmed:
here is a sneak quote from an article am writing on cancer re: Gandhi/Jinnah:
Both nations have clouded the ideals of Gandhi and Jinnah. Aside from their portrait hung in all government offices their only practical legacy is etched on the 500 rupees note to facilitate corruption.
cynically yours,
...t
here is a sneak quote from an article am writing on cancer re: Gandhi/Jinnah:
Both nations have clouded the ideals of Gandhi and Jinnah. Aside from their portrait hung in all government offices their only practical legacy is etched on the 500 rupees note to facilitate corruption.
cynically yours,
...t
#54 Posted by tahmed32 on February 28, 2003 3:58:45 pm
pmishra #42 If Jinnah ordered riots against hindus, and mass killings, as you say, then he would certainly be in the same league is savarkar. I am not here to defend any individual. I am against hero worship of any kind in any case, and I dont believe in hanging anyone`s pictures - even if it is Jinnah or Gandhi - around offices. This is true ``idol worship`` in my view. It is ideals that are important, not individual men, and by focussing on pictures of men we forget that no man is a saint, and we forget that it is the ideals that individual tried to live up to that are important. So, I will let the chowk warriors can fight it out like ``pind thee budhiaN`` (i.e. ``old women in villages`` as they say in panjabi), and I am not interested in such debates on personalities.
To me the relevant issues are those that affect the future. It is in this context that I mentioned the Washington Post article on the pomp and ceremony with which savarkar`s picture was placed next to Gandhi`s by BJP. I see this as another step in India`s march in the wrong direction, since economic progress and chauvinism are a dangerous mix, and for which both India and Pakistan have already paid a heavy price in terms of violence, divisiveness within their societies, as well as strategic blunders in matters of national security.
To me the relevant issues are those that affect the future. It is in this context that I mentioned the Washington Post article on the pomp and ceremony with which savarkar`s picture was placed next to Gandhi`s by BJP. I see this as another step in India`s march in the wrong direction, since economic progress and chauvinism are a dangerous mix, and for which both India and Pakistan have already paid a heavy price in terms of violence, divisiveness within their societies, as well as strategic blunders in matters of national security.
#55 Posted by harimau on February 28, 2003 3:58:55 pm
Ref Humsab #30 and others who attack Hamidm
Hamidm is the funniest interactor on Chowk. You can be sure he enjoys a plate of idli and dosa as much as the average South Indian who can`t have enough of them. He just likes to poke fun at things and people. If you are offended by him, it only means that you are (hopefully, it is only temporary) humor-impaired.
Hamidm is the funniest interactor on Chowk. You can be sure he enjoys a plate of idli and dosa as much as the average South Indian who can`t have enough of them. He just likes to poke fun at things and people. If you are offended by him, it only means that you are (hopefully, it is only temporary) humor-impaired.
#56 Posted by friend on February 28, 2003 6:49:02 pm
Yaseer Latifey # various
So you are back!! B R Ambedkar has written a detailed analysis of Jinnah`s strategy. I suggest you to read them.
Now you are harping a lot on Savarkar being originator of TNT. Savarkar had a very small following in `47. Gandhi was supreme. Even when Savarkar died, his followers didn`t have more than 5 percent seats in Parliament. It was Jinnah who played card of TNT to maximum and created a monster out of it.
Now run and hide behind your exams!!
So you are back!! B R Ambedkar has written a detailed analysis of Jinnah`s strategy. I suggest you to read them.
Now you are harping a lot on Savarkar being originator of TNT. Savarkar had a very small following in `47. Gandhi was supreme. Even when Savarkar died, his followers didn`t have more than 5 percent seats in Parliament. It was Jinnah who played card of TNT to maximum and created a monster out of it.
Now run and hide behind your exams!!
#57 Posted by hamidm2 on February 28, 2003 6:49:02 pm
temporal
............jinnah and gandhi?........who gives a flip about what they stood for - they are both dead and buried (or cremated, or whatever it is that the horrible hindoos do with their dead) ............ and as much as we would like to create and perpetuate silly little myths about them, they were vain little creatures who fooled themselves into believing that they were somehow responsible for shaping the destiny of the unwashed masses ......... they are all the same - jinnah, gandhi, hitler, muhammad (pbuh), churchill and jesus ........ all the same ........ small men with small p%&#ses and large egos ............. i think that the very concept of leadership is flawed - it is based on the premise that somehow some men (and women) are better than others and have the right to tell people how to think and how to act .......... it is based on the silly notion that the ``common`` man is downright stupid and needs someone to ``lead`` him ......... it is a frightening concept that we have all bought into ................we scamper around like dumb automatons seeking affirmation, confirmation and guidance from these superior beings ............ the very concept smacks of stupidity ..............
......... maybe one day we will evolve to the point where we can think for ourselves ............. this crap about ``so and so said this and therfore we have to do this`` is just that - crap!
.... i don`t know if this makes any sense, but as a ``common`` man i sometimes feel that i am being rail-roaded by folks who think they are cleverer than me ........ why? ........ i resent that........ but we are too lazy to think for ourselves and have grown to accept this system of leaders and followers ......... it is frightenting to think that individuals who are either mad or stupid, or both, control our destiny ............
............jinnah and gandhi?........who gives a flip about what they stood for - they are both dead and buried (or cremated, or whatever it is that the horrible hindoos do with their dead) ............ and as much as we would like to create and perpetuate silly little myths about them, they were vain little creatures who fooled themselves into believing that they were somehow responsible for shaping the destiny of the unwashed masses ......... they are all the same - jinnah, gandhi, hitler, muhammad (pbuh), churchill and jesus ........ all the same ........ small men with small p%&#ses and large egos ............. i think that the very concept of leadership is flawed - it is based on the premise that somehow some men (and women) are better than others and have the right to tell people how to think and how to act .......... it is based on the silly notion that the ``common`` man is downright stupid and needs someone to ``lead`` him ......... it is a frightening concept that we have all bought into ................we scamper around like dumb automatons seeking affirmation, confirmation and guidance from these superior beings ............ the very concept smacks of stupidity ..............
......... maybe one day we will evolve to the point where we can think for ourselves ............. this crap about ``so and so said this and therfore we have to do this`` is just that - crap!
.... i don`t know if this makes any sense, but as a ``common`` man i sometimes feel that i am being rail-roaded by folks who think they are cleverer than me ........ why? ........ i resent that........ but we are too lazy to think for ourselves and have grown to accept this system of leaders and followers ......... it is frightenting to think that individuals who are either mad or stupid, or both, control our destiny ............
#58 Posted by pmishra2 on February 28, 2003 6:49:02 pm
#53 tahmed
[quote]
If Jinnah ordered riots against hindus, and mass killings, as you say, then he would certainly be in the same league is savarkar
[ quote]
It is sad to see such a pathetic evasion of facts and history. It is more and more reminiscent of supporters of Narendra Modi. You will hear them say despicable things like: Is there any proof he ordered or even supported the Gujarat killings? You are merely echoing their logic.
What is your explanation of the massacres of ``Direct Action Day``? All reasonable people wiould have to accept Jinnah`s culpability in the mass muirder of his fellow citizens. At least Sarvarkar never sank to this level.
[quote]
If Jinnah ordered riots against hindus, and mass killings, as you say, then he would certainly be in the same league is savarkar
[ quote]
It is sad to see such a pathetic evasion of facts and history. It is more and more reminiscent of supporters of Narendra Modi. You will hear them say despicable things like: Is there any proof he ordered or even supported the Gujarat killings? You are merely echoing their logic.
What is your explanation of the massacres of ``Direct Action Day``? All reasonable people wiould have to accept Jinnah`s culpability in the mass muirder of his fellow citizens. At least Sarvarkar never sank to this level.
#59 Posted by sadna on February 28, 2003 7:24:14 pm
12-head #51
``it just shows final solution was not achieved. ``
``it is the INDIAN people who are sub human with only occasional flash of humanity``
Congratulations! You have clearly enunciated what I think are two basic axioms of Pakistan`s policy toward India.
If you(and a number of others) had not missed taking your vitamins in your childhood, you would ask yourselves two questions which beg to be asked given the above two axioms
1. What is the point in complaining subhumans about their secularism?
2. What prevents Pakistanis from `achieving the final solution` wrt the subhumans ?
But you (and a number of others) did miss taking your vitamins in your childhood.
``it just shows final solution was not achieved. ``
``it is the INDIAN people who are sub human with only occasional flash of humanity``
Congratulations! You have clearly enunciated what I think are two basic axioms of Pakistan`s policy toward India.
If you(and a number of others) had not missed taking your vitamins in your childhood, you would ask yourselves two questions which beg to be asked given the above two axioms
1. What is the point in complaining subhumans about their secularism?
2. What prevents Pakistanis from `achieving the final solution` wrt the subhumans ?
But you (and a number of others) did miss taking your vitamins in your childhood.
#60 Posted by jay on February 28, 2003 8:31:43 pm
VERSIONS OF ISLAM,
The version of islam followed by taliban came from pakistan, from the pak madrassas, a version consistant with the ideology of religious hatred enshrined in TNT. It led to the demolistion bhumian statues that survived even the gaznavia, but could not withstand the jinnahic islam.
Now after the overthrow of taliban, it is karzai, a muslim educated in india. It is islam, but what difference the influence of TNT makes on the same book.
The version of islam followed by taliban came from pakistan, from the pak madrassas, a version consistant with the ideology of religious hatred enshrined in TNT. It led to the demolistion bhumian statues that survived even the gaznavia, but could not withstand the jinnahic islam.
Now after the overthrow of taliban, it is karzai, a muslim educated in india. It is islam, but what difference the influence of TNT makes on the same book.
#61 Posted by mohar11 on February 28, 2003 8:31:44 pm
#57 by hamidm2
//............jinnah and gandhi?........who gives a flip about what they stood for - they are both dead and buried //
I agree. Jinah, Gandhi, Savarkar, Nehru - who cares! They all fcuked up big time! If these guys were so great, had so great visions for their masses then why are the masses in the subcontinent so miserable a lot? The very fact that people they represented ( or claimed to do so) are still mired in poverty and backwardness proves that all these ``leaders`` have failed miserbly.
I think it is time to move on. The following aritcle makes a case for clean break from the past.
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=19272
EXCERPTS:
+++
...Perhaps the only politician who has made a conscious break from .... past is Chandrababu Naidu. He asks for votes on the promise of a better future rather than in the memory of his father-in-law. The results, you would say, are encouraging...
+++
More powers to people like Naidu.
//............jinnah and gandhi?........who gives a flip about what they stood for - they are both dead and buried //
I agree. Jinah, Gandhi, Savarkar, Nehru - who cares! They all fcuked up big time! If these guys were so great, had so great visions for their masses then why are the masses in the subcontinent so miserable a lot? The very fact that people they represented ( or claimed to do so) are still mired in poverty and backwardness proves that all these ``leaders`` have failed miserbly.
I think it is time to move on. The following aritcle makes a case for clean break from the past.
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=19272
EXCERPTS:
+++
...Perhaps the only politician who has made a conscious break from .... past is Chandrababu Naidu. He asks for votes on the promise of a better future rather than in the memory of his father-in-law. The results, you would say, are encouraging...
+++
More powers to people like Naidu.
#62 Posted by jay on February 28, 2003 8:31:44 pm
, ``as a believer of Jinnah`s vision of Pakistan (a modern democratic pluralistic state) also realize that the greatest allies we have in this world are the true Gandhians across the borders (no matter what reservations I might have had in the past about Gandhi) and therefore once again I extend my hand of friendship to the self proclaimed Gandhians on this board... (but ofcourse once again I only expect to be snubbed, harrassed and abused)... ``
///Above is paost from YLH, the so called educated pakistani represent the nature of pakistanis. He is extending hand of friendship to indians on chowk, a forum that is insignificant, a place for entertainment, paki bashing. If he has any iota of honesty, if he believes in peaceful existence with other religions, if he is not a belever of TNt that created pakistan, he would have done something significant. He would have posted the same about ahmadias, if he had cared to post an article about abdus salam, if he had dared to say that hinduism or for that matter ahmadia is a religion as good as islam, in theat mostrocity created by jinnaha, YLh would not have seen another sunrise.
True to the vision of TNT and its creator, pakistan is country where no one can say anything positive about another religion and hope to live for another day. YLH is the ultimate example of a typical pakistani, the ultimate proof of dawvinism, that what is genetic, no education can change. YLh write the same about ahmadias of pakistan, tell what you think about the treatment given to abdus slam. If you dare to do that let me say, rest in peace, in tune with the visions of the creator pakistan.
///Above is paost from YLH, the so called educated pakistani represent the nature of pakistanis. He is extending hand of friendship to indians on chowk, a forum that is insignificant, a place for entertainment, paki bashing. If he has any iota of honesty, if he believes in peaceful existence with other religions, if he is not a belever of TNt that created pakistan, he would have done something significant. He would have posted the same about ahmadias, if he had cared to post an article about abdus salam, if he had dared to say that hinduism or for that matter ahmadia is a religion as good as islam, in theat mostrocity created by jinnaha, YLh would not have seen another sunrise.
True to the vision of TNT and its creator, pakistan is country where no one can say anything positive about another religion and hope to live for another day. YLH is the ultimate example of a typical pakistani, the ultimate proof of dawvinism, that what is genetic, no education can change. YLh write the same about ahmadias of pakistan, tell what you think about the treatment given to abdus slam. If you dare to do that let me say, rest in peace, in tune with the visions of the creator pakistan.
#63 Posted by jay on February 28, 2003 8:32:01 pm
VIOLENECE IN INDIA
If pakistan wins today in cricket and if the muslims celebrate, as it happens in some areas of UP and delhi, there will be some minor troubles. Because pakistanis are custodians of safety of indian muslims, may be they should play accordingly.
If pakistan wins today in cricket and if the muslims celebrate, as it happens in some areas of UP and delhi, there will be some minor troubles. Because pakistanis are custodians of safety of indian muslims, may be they should play accordingly.
#64 Posted by Tipu on February 28, 2003 9:10:31 pm
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