Muslims in India: Communalism vs. Backwardness-Minority Syndrome
Zafar Anjum February 27, 2003
#65 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on February 28, 2003 11:50:21 pm
Reply #49 nakhok
I completely agree with. Pakistani politiocians must have wangled at best 3-4 billion dollars.
But the miltary did a far greater damage:
* Ayub`s needless 65 war.
* Yahya`s ineptitude in separation of East Pakistan & 71 War.
* Zia`s Islamization and its disastrous affects on Pakistan`s body politic.
* Musharaf`s folly of Kargil.
* The economy going down the hill and weekening of the state`s institutions.
Reply #33 Sobia
I agree. But there is a learning value to all this fire & fury. One gets to hear the extreme views on both sides. Some times a new piece of information and aspect comes up.
Barring the recent `safronization policy` of India, the Indian leaders have done well. And the Indian`s on the Chowk do not need to defend much.
But there is a reluctance on their part to openly accept whatever mistakes have been done by their leaders.
Whereas, the Pakistanis seem to angry, justifiably so, with their leaders and how they let the country down. But they have no hesitation in calling a spade a spade.
As for me, frankly, I am beginning to have doubts about the wisdom of partition. It has only increased the miseries of a common man rather than having solved a problem.
Nothing can be undone now. We can only find a solution.
And the solution is a South Asian union like the EU.
I completely agree with. Pakistani politiocians must have wangled at best 3-4 billion dollars.
But the miltary did a far greater damage:
* Ayub`s needless 65 war.
* Yahya`s ineptitude in separation of East Pakistan & 71 War.
* Zia`s Islamization and its disastrous affects on Pakistan`s body politic.
* Musharaf`s folly of Kargil.
* The economy going down the hill and weekening of the state`s institutions.
Reply #33 Sobia
I agree. But there is a learning value to all this fire & fury. One gets to hear the extreme views on both sides. Some times a new piece of information and aspect comes up.
Barring the recent `safronization policy` of India, the Indian leaders have done well. And the Indian`s on the Chowk do not need to defend much.
But there is a reluctance on their part to openly accept whatever mistakes have been done by their leaders.
Whereas, the Pakistanis seem to angry, justifiably so, with their leaders and how they let the country down. But they have no hesitation in calling a spade a spade.
As for me, frankly, I am beginning to have doubts about the wisdom of partition. It has only increased the miseries of a common man rather than having solved a problem.
Nothing can be undone now. We can only find a solution.
And the solution is a South Asian union like the EU.
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#66 Posted by Tipu on February 28, 2003 11:51:33 pm
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#68 Posted by YLH2 on February 28, 2003 11:52:02 pm
Arjunm,
Do you always assume the worse about everyone or is it just when it comes to me?
Quite clearly you have misunderstood the old post you seem to posting again and again ... No where have I endorsed the use of terrorism... what I was saying was that in the classical machiavellian fashion ISI has been abusing the Kashmir issue for the sake of bogging down Indian troops there, and that it doesn`t give a damn about the right of self determination or even the stated Pakistani position on Kashmir... I was merely stating the strategy of the ISI and no where did I say I endorsed it... instead I was baffled by the response of the Indian Government and the Military which has quite clearly played into the hands of the ISI ...
Had you read my post in the context of the debate, you would realize that I have always stood against such idiotic tactics as employed by the ISI in Afghanistan and Kashmir, ... in Afghanistan it has created immense resentment and in Kashmir it has de legitimized the genuine freedom struggle... Perhaps your misunderstanding is genuine... but perhaps you are doing it just to malign me...
It is a fact that ISI has used the insurgency in Kashmir for its own objectives which many in Pakistan believe are counter productive to Pakistani position. Anyone who stands for Democracy, and progress in Pakistan can never support the ISI or its stupid strategies... I have always been very clear on this point... Pakistani patriot I maybe but I distinguish Pakistan from ISI...
Sadna
``One irony no Jinnah fanatic will acknowledge when talking of `constitutionalism` is that in India Jinnah is considered to be one of the founding fathers of the INDIAN Constitution :). ``
On the contrary I have mentioned this many times... here you have shown me that you don`t read my posts completely leading to most of the misunderstanding between us.
P-mishra,
You can take that view... but there are two or three points you should consider...
1) Jinnah had clearly called for a civil disobedience movement and explaining direct action day had explained it as a peaceful movement .. Please read his announcements and press releases leading up to the day especially on 14th and 15th of August...
2) Don`t you think it is ironic that it was celebrated as a peaceful civil disobedience movement in the rest of India especially where Jinnah was present and all the Muslim majority areas, but disturbance started in Calcutta hundred of miles away from where Jinnah was?
3) Even Lapierre and Collins, two extremely anti-Pakistan writers, have not accused Jinnah of Calcutta Riots choosing instead Suhrawardy for their wrath?? Most serious historians have not accused Jinnah of this particular event...
4) Consider this: If Gandhi called for civil disobedience movement, and somewhere a bunch of his followers burnt another people alive (as with the Chaura Chauri incident amongst others) ? Will Gandhi be accused of that?
We know quite clearly that Jinnah abhorred Violence as much as Gandhi did, if not more... so I don`t think it is fair to lay the blame at his feet... and Historians clearly haven`t in their works of repute...
-YLH
Do you always assume the worse about everyone or is it just when it comes to me?
Quite clearly you have misunderstood the old post you seem to posting again and again ... No where have I endorsed the use of terrorism... what I was saying was that in the classical machiavellian fashion ISI has been abusing the Kashmir issue for the sake of bogging down Indian troops there, and that it doesn`t give a damn about the right of self determination or even the stated Pakistani position on Kashmir... I was merely stating the strategy of the ISI and no where did I say I endorsed it... instead I was baffled by the response of the Indian Government and the Military which has quite clearly played into the hands of the ISI ...
Had you read my post in the context of the debate, you would realize that I have always stood against such idiotic tactics as employed by the ISI in Afghanistan and Kashmir, ... in Afghanistan it has created immense resentment and in Kashmir it has de legitimized the genuine freedom struggle... Perhaps your misunderstanding is genuine... but perhaps you are doing it just to malign me...
It is a fact that ISI has used the insurgency in Kashmir for its own objectives which many in Pakistan believe are counter productive to Pakistani position. Anyone who stands for Democracy, and progress in Pakistan can never support the ISI or its stupid strategies... I have always been very clear on this point... Pakistani patriot I maybe but I distinguish Pakistan from ISI...
Sadna
``One irony no Jinnah fanatic will acknowledge when talking of `constitutionalism` is that in India Jinnah is considered to be one of the founding fathers of the INDIAN Constitution :). ``
On the contrary I have mentioned this many times... here you have shown me that you don`t read my posts completely leading to most of the misunderstanding between us.
P-mishra,
You can take that view... but there are two or three points you should consider...
1) Jinnah had clearly called for a civil disobedience movement and explaining direct action day had explained it as a peaceful movement .. Please read his announcements and press releases leading up to the day especially on 14th and 15th of August...
2) Don`t you think it is ironic that it was celebrated as a peaceful civil disobedience movement in the rest of India especially where Jinnah was present and all the Muslim majority areas, but disturbance started in Calcutta hundred of miles away from where Jinnah was?
3) Even Lapierre and Collins, two extremely anti-Pakistan writers, have not accused Jinnah of Calcutta Riots choosing instead Suhrawardy for their wrath?? Most serious historians have not accused Jinnah of this particular event...
4) Consider this: If Gandhi called for civil disobedience movement, and somewhere a bunch of his followers burnt another people alive (as with the Chaura Chauri incident amongst others) ? Will Gandhi be accused of that?
We know quite clearly that Jinnah abhorred Violence as much as Gandhi did, if not more... so I don`t think it is fair to lay the blame at his feet... and Historians clearly haven`t in their works of repute...
-YLH
#69 Posted by mohar11 on February 28, 2003 11:52:02 pm
Breaking News: looks like Congress is winning in Himachal Pradesh hands down. So much for ``gujrat experminet``, ``soft hindutva`` and what not...
#70 Posted by YLH2 on March 1, 2003 12:00:35 am
tahmed,
You said `If Jinnah ordered the killings`... I think you have taken the wind out of P-mishra`s argument...
Ofcourse we know historically and all historians have confirmed that he didn`t and even the sourceless cut and paste job that p-mishra has done confirms that he didn`t...
From P-Mishra 46,
``Opposed to a British plan for Indian independence that did not also create Pakistan, he designated the 18th day of Ramadan as ``Direct Action Day.`` ``Though direct,`` ``the action was supposed to be peaceful``
And other than Calcutta, hundred of miles from Jinnah`s own physical presence, it was peaceful in most cities all over India.. especially in the city Jinnah was himself physically present and where Muslims were actually in a Majority... infact the famous pro-Congress newspaper Blitz hailed it a great anti-imperialist movement akin to Gandhi`s own non-violent civil disobedience... no newspapers of the time blamed the killings on Jinnah... No Historian of any repute like Hodson, and even anti-Pakistan authors like Collins etc have accused Jinnah of what Mr.Mishra is accusing him of on this board... as time goes by it seems that revisionist historians have started making up this story sadly... they say if you say a lie loud enough it becomes the truth... I suspect that is exactly what P-Mishra`s attempt is ...
The truth is that comparing Jinnah to Savarkar or Advani or Narendra modi is more akin to comparing Gandhi to Hitler... the biggest difference between Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the only politician to be called the best ambassador of Hindu Muslim unity, and the thugs p-mishra is trying to compare him to is that Jinnah stood for the rights and the right of self determination for a minority, while these thugs stand for the domination of a Majority.... its like saying that Malcolm X was the equivalent of KKK`s leaders... an accusation some amongst the white folk have levelled in the past. Perhaps the best defence of Jinnah against these accusations has come from an Indian... Khushwant Singh...
If only the self proclaimed Gandhians like P-Mishra were not so motivated by hate as to cloud their vision of history... Just as Jinnah might be spinning in his grave at the state of his followers, Gandhi`s spirit I am sure would find no rest after reading the hate filled monologues against Pakistan and Jinnah by his followers!
Over and Out...
Long Live Jinnah`s Pakistan and Khushwant`s (read Gandhi`s) India..
-YLH
You said `If Jinnah ordered the killings`... I think you have taken the wind out of P-mishra`s argument...
Ofcourse we know historically and all historians have confirmed that he didn`t and even the sourceless cut and paste job that p-mishra has done confirms that he didn`t...
From P-Mishra 46,
``Opposed to a British plan for Indian independence that did not also create Pakistan, he designated the 18th day of Ramadan as ``Direct Action Day.`` ``Though direct,`` ``the action was supposed to be peaceful``
And other than Calcutta, hundred of miles from Jinnah`s own physical presence, it was peaceful in most cities all over India.. especially in the city Jinnah was himself physically present and where Muslims were actually in a Majority... infact the famous pro-Congress newspaper Blitz hailed it a great anti-imperialist movement akin to Gandhi`s own non-violent civil disobedience... no newspapers of the time blamed the killings on Jinnah... No Historian of any repute like Hodson, and even anti-Pakistan authors like Collins etc have accused Jinnah of what Mr.Mishra is accusing him of on this board... as time goes by it seems that revisionist historians have started making up this story sadly... they say if you say a lie loud enough it becomes the truth... I suspect that is exactly what P-Mishra`s attempt is ...
The truth is that comparing Jinnah to Savarkar or Advani or Narendra modi is more akin to comparing Gandhi to Hitler... the biggest difference between Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the only politician to be called the best ambassador of Hindu Muslim unity, and the thugs p-mishra is trying to compare him to is that Jinnah stood for the rights and the right of self determination for a minority, while these thugs stand for the domination of a Majority.... its like saying that Malcolm X was the equivalent of KKK`s leaders... an accusation some amongst the white folk have levelled in the past. Perhaps the best defence of Jinnah against these accusations has come from an Indian... Khushwant Singh...
If only the self proclaimed Gandhians like P-Mishra were not so motivated by hate as to cloud their vision of history... Just as Jinnah might be spinning in his grave at the state of his followers, Gandhi`s spirit I am sure would find no rest after reading the hate filled monologues against Pakistan and Jinnah by his followers!
Over and Out...
Long Live Jinnah`s Pakistan and Khushwant`s (read Gandhi`s) India..
-YLH
#71 Posted by pmishra2 on March 1, 2003 8:01:53 am
The BJP has been defeated in HP ! Good news for all indians. Bad news for all fanatics. With a bit of luck this marks the end of the hyper-religous post-Gujarat politics. Or at least the beginnings of a return to common-sense and governance.
#70 YLH2
Oh, great descendant of the prophet (or at least his servants). You can twist and turn all you like on Jinnah, but history will always link the murders of direct action day with him. And history will judge him harshly for that. No different from the way history will judge Vajpayee and the Gujarat killings. In each case, a senior political leader was unwilling to personally intervene and stop mob violence.
As for your cheaply expedient and selective worship of Gandhi, the less said about it the better. You are responding only to Gandhi`s pacifisim and his critique of militarized nation states. Gandhi was also a devout hindu, he believed in sanctity of the cow, his language was full of ``ram-rajya``. Needless to say your ``respect`` for him would never include these aspects. So we can see through your cheap propaganda (look the bad, bad indians dont even follow Gandhi !) !!
#70 YLH2
Oh, great descendant of the prophet (or at least his servants). You can twist and turn all you like on Jinnah, but history will always link the murders of direct action day with him. And history will judge him harshly for that. No different from the way history will judge Vajpayee and the Gujarat killings. In each case, a senior political leader was unwilling to personally intervene and stop mob violence.
As for your cheaply expedient and selective worship of Gandhi, the less said about it the better. You are responding only to Gandhi`s pacifisim and his critique of militarized nation states. Gandhi was also a devout hindu, he believed in sanctity of the cow, his language was full of ``ram-rajya``. Needless to say your ``respect`` for him would never include these aspects. So we can see through your cheap propaganda (look the bad, bad indians dont even follow Gandhi !) !!
#72 Posted by hamidm2 on March 1, 2003 8:01:53 am
...... jinnahology and the history of the pakistan movement might be interesting subjects for idle academics and fools who live in the past, but it is about as relevant for the average paki as seerat-un-nabi and the mating habits of the quraish of mecca ........... and i am sure gandhiology and the mating habits of monkey kings are just as relevant for the beggars on the streets of kolkatta ........
.......... this obsession of the so-called intelligentsia on both sides of the border condems us to wallow in priomordial muck instead of looking towards the future .........it is nuts!......... the common man in the street, who can`t tell the difference between his elbow and a hole in the ground, listens to all these smart folks mouth-off about jinnah, nehru, savarkar and gandhi and gets all riled up and starts foaming at the mouth .......... the half starved gujju with heeng on his breath, dabs red war paint on his forehead, picks up his three-pronged pitch fork, and sets off to kill his muslim neighbour in ahmedabad who is busy praying to an arab god in mecca .......... on the right side of the border, the niswar and iman crazed pathan, who hasn`t taken a shower in eight months, gives his favourite sheep a hug, picks up his gun, and sets off for kashmir to kill a pandit or any other variety of infidel that he can find ........they are taking direct action .... in the mean time, graduates from rutgers and eastern arizona debate the merits of the Direct Action Day of 1935 or whenever..........what madness!
............ i propose a ban on teaching, reading or writing history - it doesn`t serve any purpose ............. instead of wasting our time learning about who did what to who, we should teach the ignorant gujjus and odoriferous pathans the basics of astronomy and personal hygiene ............. the world will be a better and less smelly place to live..........
.......... this obsession of the so-called intelligentsia on both sides of the border condems us to wallow in priomordial muck instead of looking towards the future .........it is nuts!......... the common man in the street, who can`t tell the difference between his elbow and a hole in the ground, listens to all these smart folks mouth-off about jinnah, nehru, savarkar and gandhi and gets all riled up and starts foaming at the mouth .......... the half starved gujju with heeng on his breath, dabs red war paint on his forehead, picks up his three-pronged pitch fork, and sets off to kill his muslim neighbour in ahmedabad who is busy praying to an arab god in mecca .......... on the right side of the border, the niswar and iman crazed pathan, who hasn`t taken a shower in eight months, gives his favourite sheep a hug, picks up his gun, and sets off for kashmir to kill a pandit or any other variety of infidel that he can find ........they are taking direct action .... in the mean time, graduates from rutgers and eastern arizona debate the merits of the Direct Action Day of 1935 or whenever..........what madness!
............ i propose a ban on teaching, reading or writing history - it doesn`t serve any purpose ............. instead of wasting our time learning about who did what to who, we should teach the ignorant gujjus and odoriferous pathans the basics of astronomy and personal hygiene ............. the world will be a better and less smelly place to live..........
#73 Posted by sadna on March 1, 2003 8:01:53 am
12-head #64
Calm down, I think of you as subhuman too.
Calm down, I think of you as subhuman too.
#74 Posted by tahmed32 on March 1, 2003 8:01:53 am
mohar11 #62 I agree with you and Hamidm that personalities are not important. I also agree with you when you indicate that the real problem - the common enemy for India and Pakistan and indeed for all mankind - is widespread poverty. I also agree with hamidm when he writes that we should start thinking for ourselves rather than accept all sorts of things as foregone conclusions.
I am glad that I finally see something that that you an hamidm have written that I can agree on.
I also am pleased to see (as you indicate) that the Congress won at Himachal Pradhesh. Furthermore I am pleased to see that nazarhayatkhan (ex- pakistan military) outline accurately the damage done to pakistan by the military.
I am glad to read words of praise from ylh2 concerning taking the wind out of p-mishra`s argument.
With everything going so well, I think I shall cash in my chips and quit while I am ahead.
cheers to all! :-)
I am glad that I finally see something that that you an hamidm have written that I can agree on.
I also am pleased to see (as you indicate) that the Congress won at Himachal Pradhesh. Furthermore I am pleased to see that nazarhayatkhan (ex- pakistan military) outline accurately the damage done to pakistan by the military.
I am glad to read words of praise from ylh2 concerning taking the wind out of p-mishra`s argument.
With everything going so well, I think I shall cash in my chips and quit while I am ahead.
cheers to all! :-)
#75 Posted by tahmed32 on March 1, 2003 8:01:53 am
mohar11 #62 I agree with you and Hamidm that personalities are not important. I also agree with you when you indicate that the real problem - the common enemy for India and Pakistan and indeed for all mankind - is widespread poverty. I also agree with hamidm when he writes that we should start thinking for ourselves rather than accept all sorts of things as foregone conclusions.
I am glad that I finally see something that that you an hamidm have written that I can agree on.
I also am pleased to see (as you indicate) that the Congress won at Himachal Pradhesh. Furthermore I am pleased to see that nazarhayatkhan (ex- pakistan military) outline accurately the damage done to pakistan by the military.
I am glad to read words of praise from ylh2 concerning taking the wind out of p-mishra`s argument.
With everything going so well, I think I shall cash in my chips and quit while I am ahead.
cheers to all! :-)
I am glad that I finally see something that that you an hamidm have written that I can agree on.
I also am pleased to see (as you indicate) that the Congress won at Himachal Pradhesh. Furthermore I am pleased to see that nazarhayatkhan (ex- pakistan military) outline accurately the damage done to pakistan by the military.
I am glad to read words of praise from ylh2 concerning taking the wind out of p-mishra`s argument.
With everything going so well, I think I shall cash in my chips and quit while I am ahead.
cheers to all! :-)
#77 Posted by ferozk on March 1, 2003 8:01:53 am
To summerize the arguments/debate on this thread so far...
...Indians hate Pakistanis and Pakistanis hate Indians; Indians think they are better than Pakistanis and Paksitanis think they are better than Indians...LOL
Ciao
...Indians hate Pakistanis and Pakistanis hate Indians; Indians think they are better than Pakistanis and Paksitanis think they are better than Indians...LOL
Ciao
#78 Posted by rsaxena on March 1, 2003 8:01:53 am
re: ylh
...still wanking off over jinnah, still deluding yourself, still looking for glory on internet message boards...
...anyone with half a brain and smarts would`ve been studying politics or international relations at the kennedy school at harvard...instead, look at your sorry ass...shame...
...still wanking off over jinnah, still deluding yourself, still looking for glory on internet message boards...
...anyone with half a brain and smarts would`ve been studying politics or international relations at the kennedy school at harvard...instead, look at your sorry ass...shame...
#79 Posted by harimau on March 1, 2003 8:01:53 am
Ref YLH2 #70
[tahmed,
You said `If Jinnah ordered the killings`... I think you have taken the wind out of P-mishra`s argument...
Ofcourse we know historically and all historians have confirmed that he didn`t and even the sourceless cut and paste job that p-mishra has done confirms that he didn`t...]
Yasser, dear boy. Please explain Jinnah`s statement to the effect that `today (Direct Action Day), we have unsheathed the pistol`.
By the way, I notice that you have been quite silent about your hero`s idea of minority population as hostages. That is a very democratic concept, I suppose.
But as you keep telling us, Jinnah is a strict constitutionalist. That is why he could probably have written the hostage policy into Pakistan`s constitution and be quite legal about it.
Now that you are back in Pakistan, have you started adding a halo to Jinnah`s portrait? Start off with the postage stamps that you personally use and then you can graduate to the banknotes you handle.
[tahmed,
You said `If Jinnah ordered the killings`... I think you have taken the wind out of P-mishra`s argument...
Ofcourse we know historically and all historians have confirmed that he didn`t and even the sourceless cut and paste job that p-mishra has done confirms that he didn`t...]
Yasser, dear boy. Please explain Jinnah`s statement to the effect that `today (Direct Action Day), we have unsheathed the pistol`.
By the way, I notice that you have been quite silent about your hero`s idea of minority population as hostages. That is a very democratic concept, I suppose.
But as you keep telling us, Jinnah is a strict constitutionalist. That is why he could probably have written the hostage policy into Pakistan`s constitution and be quite legal about it.
Now that you are back in Pakistan, have you started adding a halo to Jinnah`s portrait? Start off with the postage stamps that you personally use and then you can graduate to the banknotes you handle.
#80 Posted by mohar11 on March 1, 2003 9:01:06 am
It seems COngress won in HP even after a unfocused campaign marred by faction ridden politics (which sadly has become hallmark of this Grand Old Party of India). That means people must really be hating BJP, at least in HP.
Well - it was about time somebody showed BJP guys the door and a message - it is all about governance stupid!
Well - it was about time somebody showed BJP guys the door and a message - it is all about governance stupid!
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