Muslims in India: Communalism vs. Backwardness-Minority Syndrome

nasah #83
I don`t think the HP election quite compensates for the `Gujarat anamoly`.

Firstly, HP doesnot have many Muslims, so the Gujarat/Modi-patented Hindutva hate machine had no `fuel`.

Secondly, `secularism` and `pluralism` have to be the universally accepted bottomline in every Indian election tussle, not something whose current `market` value fluctuates from election to election. This result is good, soon after Gujarat, but we are not there yet.

Re:sameerJB#91
Sameer, I am also completely fed up with this Jinnah, Gandhi, ONT, TNT nonsense. We need some new ideas in the subcontinent. The 1Billion plus population should be able to figure out a reasonable way to coexist. Here are my criteria for a better future -
1. Completely give up the objective of redrawing maps. That will never happen when two sides have nukes
2. Completely give up on transfer of people. The last time we did this, it resulted in a holocaust
3. Focus like a laser beam on economic relations. Indo-Pak synergy can exploit tremendous economic opportunities like energy pipelines, trade between central asia, south asia and southeast asia, attracting foreign investment, collaboration on IT etc.
4. Hammer out a reasonable solution on Kashmir. Given that Kashmiris have their own government and they control the land, surely we can work out some compromise, where everyone in India and Pakistan have equal access to Kashmir for tourism, pilgrimage etc.
5. Absolutely clamp down on all forms of religious extremism in both coutntries. All this jihad, Ram temple stuff should be a bad dream
6. Teach a balanced history in both countries
7. Free flow of information, books, cultural exchanges etc. Impose code of conduct on media to prevent demagouging of issues

NON MALIGNED NEWS,

The news of terrorist attacks on the US consulate in karachi when mushy finished the meeting of non-aligned nations where he expounded the concept of root cause. The following are thestatements issued by the pak delegation.

Mushy- `` there are US troops in pakistan, they are occupying several air bases. Recently a pakistani was taken to the uS and killed. Seceral of afghan and yemeni honoured guests to pakistan have ended up in gundanamo bay. FBI is operating freely in pakistan. Pak people are strugleing for freedom, to everthrow the occupation forces. I have to dig deep to find the roots of the attack in karachi, it may or may not be terror, it could even be legitimate freedom struggle which pakistan supports politically and diplomatically``

Romair, the amnesty rep for pakistan `` Every one knows that pak consulate is heavily guarded, no one can enter it which suggets that there could human rights violations taking place. Other wise why reporters are not allowed, why UN observers are not allowed. The attack could be ligitimate expressions of the people whose rights have been violated``

YLH the pak historian- `` after reading all the books of wolpert, ayesha jala and kushwant sing, I am convinced that direct action as called by the leader means that any one in the direct line of sight can be killed. The freedom fighters were attacking the US garrison and the pak police where in the direct line of fire, and that is OK.``

Maulana tahmed..`` the people in the US consulate were kafirs and those protecting them are also non-innocents by induction. Killings are religiously OK``.

IMPORTANCE OF HISTORY,

Those who wants to forget are the ones waiting for the history to repeat itself. It is the awareness and rejection of nazi history that is guiding germany. Imagine a scenario where the pak view of history is changed, TNT is treated at par with nazism and the man behind it is given the same olace in history as that man with funny mush, it would have been a different pakistan.

Every legislative change in pakistan is consistant with that world view emerging from the founding theory of pakistan. Why no one talks about what every pakistani has to sign and declare before getting a passport. Pl spare me the evils of zia line, since zia there had been three so called secular governments in pakistan, and several dictators, mushy who has changed the constitutuion so funadamentally cannot dare to change the attacks on other religions and the reason is simple, the people of pakistan believe in the founding ideoligy of pakistan, TNT.

It is time that the pakistanis accept the role of history, and those who wants to avaoind talk of history are only supporters of the jihadic turn of pakistan.

...how ironic that a$$holes in gujarat are having street fights again while the indian team that won today has hindus, muslims and sikhs playing...

amit #98: You are right. What have we achieved in the last 56 years except poverty, injustice and hate by staying in the mode of independence movement. Kashmir is a non-issue except for the spillover from independence movement.

The ogre let loose by the independence movement is alive, well and kicking. How can we blame anybody or Gujratis when supposedly educated people behave like jerks and displaying tunnel vision, when it comes to pissing matches? Thes topics, as hamidm stated, should have been buried long time ago. They belonged to another time and proven to be both dangerous and useless ideals in modern times.

The dynamics of the ideals in the absence of checks and balances and rule of law took undesired turns, which should have been known to the parties and their leaders who created an atmosphere of unrealistic and irrational dimensions of their ambitions turned ideals. They were political leaders like any other politicians, perhaps slightly better in few aspects.

Like seers, their sayings have become more important than deeds. Hrdly any day goes by when nobody mentions about a speech in Pakistan Legislative assembly in 1947 or Pakistan resolution of 1940.

The big casualty at chowk of this tunnel vision and hate is disappearance of ladies participarion. Out of 101 posts, only sadna participated actively and scout showed her anger for the never ending crap in the name of Gandhi-Jinnah-Nehru and Islam-Hinduism. I have come up with a simple formula to judge the importance of any topic at chowk. If it turns off desi ladies, then it is horse puckey. It is not worth wasting time in reading or writing.

Everybody should look at the list of interactors and count number of posts by female participants and then look in the mirror. Hopefully they will be ashamed of themselves.

Ladies used to participate actively and still do on meaningful topics. Same goes for the institutions and other activities in subcontinent. If women are outside religion heirarchy, clergy, jihad, madrassahs, sangh parivar, fundamentalism, bureaucracy, politics, military, intellectuals, white collar workers or labor force of any kind, then those areas are representative of male chauvinism or horse puckey. The independence movement was totally a male chauvinistic affair.

Yes, we need a totally new progressive and secular vision that is in the service of people before serving countries, nations, politicians, military,............

............ jay, if you are not careful they will come and lock you up in a pink padded cell with your soul mate from our corner of hell - urstruly ....... get a grip on yourself - have some idlee or coconut curry....... better yet, have some taudi - they tell me it is the only good thing that ever came out of india ...........

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Dear Chowkwallahs,

I had absolutely no interest in starting a debate on Jinnah nor did I start one... I am only giving an alternative view to the one given by P-Mishra in #21. I am no believer in ideologies one nation or two nation or whatever... I believe only in Democracy, peace, stability and Good Economics.... In my own view South Asia should break up even further into smaller Republics, but I shudder to think what upheavel that would create.

The way P-Mishra addresses me is indicative of his lack of self respect, not to mention his coverup of the fact that he can`t really come up with a scholarly response... but Clearly P-Mishra knows something the historians didn`t know for he is adamant on proving something that can`t be proved atleast by facts of History... P-Mishra knows something the First Indian constituent Assembly didn`t know because in 1948 that body in which were present men like Nehru, Azad and Patel, passed a resolution paying homage to the life and times of Quaid e Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah...

And he definitely knows something more than Sarat Chanderbose, brother of Netaji and pres of the forward bloc of the Congress who said: ``Mr.Jinnah was great as a lawyer, once great as a Congressman, great as a Leader of Muslims, great as a world politician and diplomat, and greatest as of all as a man of action. By Mr. Jinnah`s passing away, the world has lost one of the greatest statesmen and Pakistan its life-giver, philosopher and guide.``

Too bad Mr.Bose (and pioneering members of the Indian Parliament) didn`t have the clarity of vision that P-Mishra has exhibited when he(P-Mishra) claims that ``history will always link the murders of direct action day with him``... yes indeed History written by psychopaths of Mr.Mishra`s persuasion will always link them together.. How reliable that might be I don`t know... for after all Mr.Mishra has accused me in the past of being sectarianist for taking pride in the success of Rana Bhagwandas a fellow Pakistani on the Supreme Court Bench. Nothing exemplifies Mr.Mishra`s skewness more.

And what of simple metaphors... for Jinnah even the chaos of civil disobedience was abhorrable, so when he finally forged a pistol he was referring to the Gandhi style civil disobedience that ML would now take up... Gandhi referred to his self as the general and his followers as troops.. can one then argue that he too wanted to wage wars?

Rsaxena mentions the wonderful and heartwarming gesture b/w our two cricket teams... too bad he couldn`t take a leaf out of their book... for nothing could stop him from taking personal pot shot in #72.. ah well that is typical ... .

And its always some excuse for Veeresh... if you mention a western Author, he is always on Pakistani payroll, if you mention someone like Arundhati Roy she is just an anti-national communist, and now Khushwant Singh has joined this list... he is a white supremecist, terrorist, Islamic fanatic and an anti-national communist all in one... It seems that these names are reserved for any Indian who doesn`t harbor some anti-Pakistan feelings as Veeresh.


Sameerjb,

I almost completely agree with you (except on the counts of Nehru-Gandhi-Jinnah) ... your idea is not a new one ofcourse... Sir Fazle Hussain, Sikandar Hayat and others believed in this idea... and it found enough expression in Jinnah`s 14 points...

Subcontinent`s unity lay in the diversity of its peoples and that is where both Indian Nationalism and Muslim Nationalism went against the grain of the people... these two ideas were exploded in stages... hence 1947 was stage 1 and 1971 was stage 2... if Pakistan wants to avoid stage three it has to become more federal and less centralized... more liberal and less ideological.
-YLH

Being a Punjabi-Paki myself, I know well that the communal politics (read Muslim League and its Two-Nation Theory) of the British India had its genesis in the chattering classes of the Muslims of UP and CP. ML’s top and middle leadership came from the so-called “culturally-and-linguistically superior” Muslim elite of Urdu-Hindi-Hindustani speaking areas. However, the Muslim majority areas of India on the other hand could not reconcile themselves to the TNT until they were left with no choice. The Muslims of North-Western and North-Eastern India did not actively support the creation of Pakistan until the political atmosphere became so polarized that they could not disassociate themselves from the flow of the political developments.

I find it amazing that these proponents of the communal political (TNT) quickly changed their political colours after the vivisection of the Subcontinent. These communalists became the biggest advocates of secularism. They promptly sheltered themselves under the umbrella of the Congress Party (the target of their hate before the Partition) and have still been hiding there, bar a couple of brief affairs with Desai, VP Singh, Shekhar-led secular collations. How long would they be able to conceal their real self? Their secularism is only façade for the public consumptions. These Indian Muslims are closet religious fanatics. Otherwise, India would not have separate personal/family laws for these so-called secularists. The Muslims of India are nothing but walking and thinking (?) 110 million “Pakistans” (repeat PAKISTANS) tarnishing the image of the secular-minded India. You cannot eat your cake and have it too.

The rising Hindu nationalism is nothing but a reaction to the long-tolerated hypocrisy of Indian Muslims. It is not too late if they stop looking towards west and try to assimilate within the larger Indian society. An attitudinal change in the thinking of the Indian Muslims might also help us, Pakistanis, to re-evolve our national and cultural identity with reason and rationality.

NOT BY JAY

``They kill at home for their own salvation, and in quest of martyrdom when they go out to fight the infidels in foreign lands. Mercenaries also join in to inflate their ranks. These are the two faces of the same doctrine - the two sides of the same coin. The troublesome heretics at home deserve the same fate as the oppressing non-believers elsewhere.

The problem thus has to be tackled where it arises and not when it culminates in bloodshed. Trying to catch and punish the culprits has long been a futile exercise and will increasingly so remain. Commenting editorially on the Alfalah massacre, Dawn disclosed that 200 people were killed in 194 incidents in Karachi alone but only four were convicted over ten years. The countrywide picture would be grimmer.

The dogma which leads to intolerance of dissent is nurtured in mosques and madrassahs and later given a violent twist in public life in pursuit of political ends. The attempts by the government and civil society to make the mosques and madrassahs centres of learning and tolerance have been half-hearted and unsuccessful. Bigotry has mushroomed as have such institutions` numbers.

The latest and most elaborate of the plans to change the environs of the madrassahs from parochial to liberal was announced by President Musharraf with great gusto when he was at the height of his power. He undertook to broaden the base of their education by adding to their syllabi the subjects secular and scientific. Scared by the resistance the move encountered, he scaled the plan down to mere registration. Even that did not happen. His relentless zeal which disfigured the country`s political and administrative scene withered when confronted by the clerics, as had his first ambition to reverse the tide of obscurantism and make Pakistan into another Turkey.

Changing his strategy, Musharraf then gratefully acknowledged the service the 8,000 odd madrassahs rendered to the community by imparting lessons and providing lodgings free of cost to half a million poor children and promised to provide computers and other modern teaching aids to them. There is little possibility of that coming about when many of the government`s own schools do not have even blackboards and jute mats for the squatting students.

Musharraf`s plan to cleanse society of illicit weapons floundered as had his madrassah reforms. The weapons recovered, mostly given up voluntarily, were few and old, not worthy even of publicity stunts. Last to surrender would have been the militants.

Religious fanatics, armed with unlicensed weapons and cruising in stolen or smuggled vehicles, thus continue to strike at will at any of the numerous places that the dissenting ones frequent at all hours. The police, as organized at present, are unable to stop them from attacking or catch them while fleeing. They operate with impunity. ``

///HAMIDM, I have company in the cell, above is from dawn of today, written by a pakistani. It cinfirms my view that per the book, even domestic killing is OK for heaven.

Piscatiqua #104
You bet Indian Muslims are in the mainstream, check this out :) :

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=298427

BUT but, if you look at the polio incidence cases(India accounts for a majority of the cases in the world), inspite of the repeated highly publicised Pulse Polio campaigns, the highest number of instances seem to occur in Indian Muslim pockets in UP and other places. The primary reason for uneducated Muslim parents not to bring their children to be inoculated seems to be distrust of the perceived `Hindu`-intentions of the state.

Ref jayjay #106

While what you say about Indian Muslims might be true of SOME of the Muslim leadership, I am afraid that you are painting with a broad brush all Indian Muslims as villains. A vast majority (in excess of, I would venture, 99%) are peaceable, law-abiding citizens; the rich leading a luxurious life, the middle-class managing to survive and the poor barely ekeing out a livelihood. Just like their Hindu or Christian neighbors. Don`t blame them for the minuscule minority that might have bought into Wahabi fundamentalism and consider India dar-ul-harb.

Your comments about changing in the thinking of Indian Muslims (towards modernity, scientific education while retaining their culture, identity and religious piety) having a positive influence on Pakistan is right on.

#106 by jayjay
A good analysis. I have always felt that hindu militancy will not have any takers the day muslims forge a close alliance with hindus. This does not mean giving away one`s religious identity and belief. They just need to shy away from people who speak of Islam in a confrontational way. It is heartening to note that BJP lost in Himachal Pradesh. Modi`s hindutva ideology is a dangerous concept. It should not be allowed to succeed.
Sridhar

Announcing and Anti-Dote to TNT: The OPC (One Person Corollory): Ladies and Gentlemen, in one more attempt to put an end to the constant mumblings about TNT by Jay from his ``pink padded cell`` (per hamidm. (But why pink incidentally? Is Jay Gay in addition to being an obssessive, compulsive, thakerayesque modiite??)), I present to you the (drum-roll please)....the OPC.
The OPC follows from the following quote from Rousseau: ``Man was born free, yet everywhere he is in chains.``
The corollary: In order to be free, we must break these chains. In order to break these chains we must understand the nature of these chains. These chains are that say ``you are part of this nation, this community``. Break them, and there is only one nation left - the nation of mankind and other living creatures on earth. Pakistan is not a nation, the Indian subcontinent is not a nation. All of mankind is one nation. Increasingly this seemingly ideal notion is becoming an everyday reality.
Thank you for reading my profound thoughts for the day. :-)

Amit 98,

That is a comprehensive vision for the future of Pakistan and India... I wholeheartedly reciprocate your views and sentiments...

This caught my attention :

``6. Teach a balanced history in both countries ``

I have made this proposal many times on this side ... (Whatever happened to Daudpota`s attempt)... Perhaps K K Aziz on the Pakistani side would be a good candidate .. also Mubarik Ali.. What do you think?


``4. Hammer out a reasonable solution on Kashmir. Given that Kashmiris have their own government and they control the land, surely we can work out some compromise, where everyone in India and Pakistan have equal access to Kashmir for tourism, pilgrimage etc``

Agreed once again! The land grabbing antics are useless.... with an Independent and peaceful Kashmir we will effectively bury the threat of nuclear war...


You are welcomed anytime in my house in Lahore...

-YLH