For Better or Worse

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#37 by nazarhayatkhan on June 9, 2003 9:43pm PT

I will avoid giving a completely technical analyis but deal with the questions with common sense.

First thing is that one need not be logically convinced of everything. Somethings that we call logic are simply matter of preference or commonsense.

(a) Man can have four wives but women can not have four husbands. (earlier arguement in favour was that the husband can not be traced. Now with DNA, that

.... That is the same reason why Hugh Hefner is seen with a series of women on his arms and you dont see Maddonna flaunting her various boyfriends at the same time. We could go into the logic of this but I doubt if we will reach any conclusive resoultion.
Question to be asked is are women clamouring to have 4 husbands?
It is our nature to be so. One of the reasons being that usually the marriage is for family(now let us not get into disupute on this)ie children and women carry the child bearing responsiblity. They obviously cant be cavorting around with other men while carrying a baby of other. Remember that a woman needs emotional stabality as well as financial stability at time of pregency and after it. similarly a child requires attention of a mother (as well as a father) and considerable investment in terms of emotion, time is needed by some one. And till date it is found that women are better at this than men. I know we could argue the finer points of all this to death but commonsense is what most people understand except the educated morons.

(b) Man can have slave girls and legally get children out of them. But woman can not have slave men and get legal children out of them.

..I havent had much thought to this. So I wont comment.

c) Quran says that man can beat his wife with stick if she does not listen to him. But wife is not permitted to beat him with stick if he is being unreasonable
It is not listen but only when she is being extremely destructive that too the qualification is to beat as light as a feather. Ie symbolic the act of being reprimanded physicaly itself can be a great matter of shame for many people(Physical beating is not advised at all). In singapore when a ticketless traveller is detected nothing is done except a new ticket is given. People are so ashamed that they hide their faces and getoff the bus.

d) Wife is explicitly required to make herself available for conjugal rights when the husband so desires. But the husband is not required to make himself available for the conjugal rights when the wife so desires.

.. No the husband is expected to satisfy the desires of the wife too. Only the route for restoration of this right is slightly different. A wife can divorce on basis of not being satisfied sexually. Now this is a matter of Implementation of law. Theorically a woman can say she is not satisfied even if a sexual activity is there every day.

e) Quran had specifically permitted only the prophet to have 11 wives at one time. I want to know the rational behind it.

the rationale is that since Islam was in its Infancy and most tribes treated marriage as a method to cement relations this was the permission given to the Prophet so as to enable the nacent Islamic nation to gain strength.

f) Similarly, prophet had married Aysha who was 8 or 12 year old girl. Our Mulla`s also try to follow this example by marrying young girls as a religious preference following the Sunnah. I am not very comfortable with this.

early marriage was not a problem in any socitey till a recently ie last hundred years.

Earlier socitey number of professions were limited and they did not require lenghty studies. Life has become more complex today. People have to master many aspects of knowledge and skills before they are able to make a living. Thus they are not capbable of supporuting themselves till a much later age. girls are similarly expected to match at least some of these skills(as a mother she has to suitable to bringing up childeren who can compete in the present circumstances) thus the marriageable age is higher in our socitey.
earlier socitey the family grouping was a source of security and thus the girl could marry earlier as all that she had to learn was how to bring up children and do some basic chores. since families were either joint or close to each other and interdependent more than they are now there was a suppourt sturcture avaiable for the young girl to cope with the task of raising children and looking after the family.
Todays socitey it is no longer so. However this varies to a large extent from place to place. You will find that in richer families women tend to marry early since they are able to find husbands who depend on family wealth and dont need to struggle too much to suppourt a family. If ones checks with the womens entrepruners groups in India you will find that many of the successful entrepruners have had pretty early marriages at times even finishing college after marriage and raisign childern to a age of about 7-10 they have got involved in business. Ie they took thier time getting comfortable with their family resposnibilites and then ventured out to do other things. There are a few women writers too who were married at 15(this age was quite common earlier for marriage) and found that they lost nothing at all in their lives. Generally a girl is considered to be sexually capable when she reaches puberty usually this is around 12-13 and typically it takes about a year or so for the menustration cycles to stabilize. Since it is the nature of humuans to have sex when they are capable(as evidenced by sexually active teens all over the world) a early marriage has no harm usually. However in todays stressfull and chalengeing socitey where family suppourt is not what it was before this can lead to very bad situations. Therefore it is sensible to postpone the marriage age by a few years. However all people dont have this problem and thus marriage at 15-18 should be ok at least in a few cases. In any case there are more early teen pregancies in the west than early teen marriages in our countries. Usually these teens giveup thier children for adoption. I feel if socitey is kinder then it will suppourt such families to adjust with the situation for a few years so the family (ie mother , father and child) remain one unit.
However there is a social myth in the west which calls for discovering themselves and making the right choice (however it seems that they dont reflect that with all the discovering they still make the wrong choices going by the divorce rate)

g) Man can give divorce by calling it thrice. Wife can not do it.

.... this is a peculiary sunni practice. I doubt wethere it will stand the test of time. while the provision is there for divorcing by calling out there is also clear indication that this has to be done with an intervening period of one month(no matter howmuch you call the divorce within the period).
The shias dont accept this method. Divorce is done by the same method as is the marriage ie through writing. Similarly there is a waiting periond of a month after which if there is no reconciliation(reconciliation is mandatory but not implemneted by most law, this is a matter of practice which can be changed). if there is a reconciliation or a indecision the man can take back his wife however the limit is three such times after which the divorce becomes final no matter wether he wants to take her back then or not(ie he cannot for ever threathen to divorce her and then tell that he will take her back)
Singapore implements the Muslim personal law in the above manner. Ie all divorce has no value till it is written and in front of court oppinted officals. Martial consuelling is compulsary after notice of divorce isgiven and is done through court appointed mulsim functoinaires. similarly the withdarwal of intent to divorce is done in writing. Malaysia and Indonesia are also considering these laws(there is opposition of course)

(h) Man is required to pay bride money to wife after consummation of marriage. Why is the wife exemepted from paying such a fee to the husband?

I think this is answered earlier so I dont need to add.

In comparing logic one cant do it in isolation especially in subjective cases. can you make the logic of a man having no penalty in breaking his marriage vows and also having to take responsibility of his offspring out of any union even as he is married and the opposition for bigamy in the modern systems?
Islam allows more than one wife with the permission of the other wives(ie wifes have objeiction then they can seek divorce) while there is punishment if a person betrays his marriage vows and cheats. If the wife agrees then he can marry another woman (ie if he wants to have sexual relations he has to take up financial as well as moral responsibility of both wife and children). However in modern law there is no penalty for cheating. a man (or woman )can cheat all that they want without fear of punishment. However the woman has no choice in objecting to this at all with the exception that she can divorce the man. The man however is free to have relations with the other woman without taking any financial resposnibility of either the woman or her children(they can calim for maintannence after the fact ie it is not automatic theyhave to go through a expensive court process for it.)

I dont think I could have given cold logic to such subjective issues but those are some of the ways you could look at those issues.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#35 by ana_dobarah on June 9, 2003 8:58pm PT

what I meant was that women (and men too) dont make choices in isolation. There is a prevailing trend in the media (both in news/analysis as well as entertainment and advt)that seeks to change our values with some very illinformed and at times tottally wrong information. We need to recognise the presence of this and to recognise that it influences behaviour. Presently we are like ostirchies who say that the media is a reflection of socitey or reflects the aspriations of scoitey(It can be that posibbly) More often media has a goal ie to sell and at times it gives out the version of aspirations of a class which itself is confused and had very little understanding about socitey and its issues. However since the reach is trememdous it starts to have a very unhealthy influnce in the choices we make.
We need to recognise this influence and accept it for what it is and to make adjustments accordingly. Socitey is more than what the media potrays. Unless there is a strong recognised and channled values by the socitey the media will pretty much play havoc.

Nazar sahab,

Though far from being a scholar (except between the hours of 9 and 9 when I`m cooped up in the library dungeons cramming) allow me to attempt to answer at least some of your queries. This is the way I understand them.

(b) Man can have slave girls and legally get children out of them. But woman can not have slave men and get legal children out of them.
Where does it say that? The only circumstances in which a sexual relationship is permitted between a man and a woman is when they are married to each other. Thus, as soon as a woman marries a man, she ceases to be a slave-girl, and whatever that means, and assumes the status of his wife, with all the rights and privileges associated. There are no clandestine arrangements. You have to remember that as Muslims we believe that God is watching us all the time and that we are absolutely accountable for all that we consciously do. Not even a particle of good or bad is discounted from a person`s behaviour.


(f) A girl cannot be married without her consent, and consent is based upon a certain sensibility. Ibn Majah and some other transmitters report the following hadith: A girl came to the Prophet (peace be on him) and informed him that her father had married her to her cousin against her wishes, whereupon the Prophet (peace be on him) allowed her to exercise her choice. She then said, `I am reconciled to what my father did but I wanted to make it known to women that fathers have no say in this matter.`


(g) This, I was told, was a stipulation of the marriage contract in this part of the world. Woman seldom read the contract themselves and are generally unaware of the legal aspects, and their rights, within the marriage bond.


(h) The mahr is not mere bride money but a gift from a man to the woman who will be his wife. It is an act of love. Islam has simply legalised the tradition but has not associated any amount with it.
I remember reading of an incident where a woman, I believe she was Anas ibn Malik`s mother, asked for her mahr that her suitor convert to Islam. That conversion to the principles of Islam would be his gift to her.

---

A lot of what we see Muslims practising today is not necessarily directly derived from the two sources of the shariah of Islam, ie the Holy Quran and the Prophet`s sunnah, but are actually legal adaptations of these two sources that were originally meant for a particular time and place, a set of circumstances that may be greatly different from our own. These have persisted in the culture of the communities they originated from and have hardened into true legalities even though they were only meant to serve a temporal purpose. And perhaps that`s why Muslims seem to be at such odds with their current circumstances, because they have forgotten what their religion really asks of them, and instead choose to practise a set of rules, long after they have expired.
Though, it needs to be mentioned, that this does not mean that now Islam can immediately be bent to pander to popular culture. The truth is immutable and valid through all time. The need now is for Muslims to return to the original sources and allow that wisdom to inform us in our current circumstances.
Ultimately though, whether it be marriage or the legalities of food and drink or whatever area of human endeavour, one should always keep in mind that one is accountable to God for his actions. As long as a person is conscious of God, he will necessarily stay away from bringing harm to himself or others.

``Allah desires to make clear to you and to guide you to the ways of the (righteous) people before you and to turn to you in mercy; and Allah is Knowing, Wise. And Allah desires to lighten your burden, for man was created weak.``
Surah an-Nisaa, ayahs 26-28

Tehmed32 #27

As usual, you are witty with cutting-edge language and lots of fresh ideas. Thanks.

With the quantity of your prolific posts, it seems that Mrs. Tehmed32 and kids are with in-laws.

Nazar great post --

these are such shameful anomalies in our 1400 years old immutable religion -- ``of all times`` -- that there will be few takers for your very pointed THORNY questions about the dire need for REFORM in Islam -- for modern times.

However -- there is one about four wives -- that a Mullah with some knowledge of biology came up with the following macabre answer:

the women can have four husbands any time they want to -- if -- they can come up with one million ova (ovums) in every ejaculation.

nazar#37
i agree with you.i wonder really these commands were from god.don``t u feel is he a male?we are like children to him ,he should have treated both equally.

ZahraJ: Thanku for ur valuable input and ofcourse `education.` I would like to add that this was not an attempt to convey a chauvinist perspective of the situation rather the whole point was to talk in terms of the general social stereotypes which continue to engulf our society. Point being... we want to address an issue which is hardly talked about on such platforms.

ali87: I do agree with you on most of the stuff!

nazarhayatkhan: These are exactly the questions that need to be answered by religious scholars. If you do hear from anyone regarding these queries... do share!

Time for some serious stuff:

I do not know how the other religions ordain the treatment of a wife. But I have some working knowledge of Islam. The Islamic injunctions about marriage may have been a great stride forward in the 6 Century Arabia but now with a vastly changed environment, these need to be reinterpreted and reformed:

As a Muslim, I find it very difficult to logically convince a non-Muslim on the following:

(a) Man can have four wives but women can not have four husbands. (earlier arguement in favour was that the husband can not be traced. Now with DNA, that logic is not sufficient)

(b) Man can have slave girls and legally get children out of them. But woman can not have slave men and get legal children out of them.

(c) Quran says that man can beat his wife with stick if she does not listen to him. But wife is not permitted to beat him with stick if he is being unreasonable.

(d) Wife is explicitly required to make herself available for conjugal rights when the husband so desires. But the husband is not required to make himself available for the conjugal rights when the wife so desires.

(e) Quran had specifically permitted only the prophet to have 11 wives at one time. I want to know the rational behind it.

(f) Similarly, prophet had married Aysha who was 8 or 12 year old girl. Our Mulla`s also try to follow this example by marrying young girls as a religious preference following the Sunnah. I am not very comfortable with this.

(g) Man can give divorce by calling it thrice. Wife can not do it.

(h) Man is required to pay bride money to wife after consummation of marriage. Why is the wife exemepted from paying such a fee to the husband?

Any takers?

ali87: while i do see what you`re saying, i don`t think that women making choices is a utopia. of course not all women are going to make choices without taking their environs into consideration. i agree that economic pressures force both men and women into working. i also agree that that women as homemakers should be celebrated just as much, because being a homemaker is plenty of work in itself. What I am referring to is the fact that women should not be given ultimatums, or pressured by men especially. what i am saying is that if a woman has a good job that would not interfere with the bringing up of her children, then she should not be given the ultimatum of quitting it or else he quits her. THAT is what i have a problem with. this is not a generalization i`m making here, i`m referring to specific people i know this has happened . And I really don`t want to bring the east vs. west dichotomy into this, because i don`t believe it`s relevant to what i`m saying. you have some interesting observations, but i am not convinced that women making choices about their lives is a utopia, nor am i convinced that it`s purely a western thing. A husband or a father-in-law or even a father should not be the only decision maker in a wife/daughter-in-law or daughter`s life. this kind of thinking keeps us centuries back. . .

The crux of the article is highlighted below. For the sake of assisting the writer in resolving his queries the interactors should rip apart the following questions.

[How can we better deal with the counter issues as a result of this awareness? Can a man be a little more broad-minded and open up to the presence of women in the workplace? Can he loosen up his ego and stop having an upper hand over her? Can a woman give up her double standards of asking for her rights to work and at the same time expecting her husband to support her for everything? Can she accept that along with the awareness, she should stop having expectations of being pampered for everything and learn to support herself?]

Since the writer`s intentions are good, therefore the following suggestion must be incorporated in his plan to invoke a change:

- Having ``gender studies`` included in the core curriculum of all schools and colleges in Pakistan. Special emphasis needs to be given to communication.

[Of course, we all come from different schools of thought regarding women’s awareness, which also matters. For a lot of people, certain opinions mentioned here would be from a conservative, old fashioned, paranoid male. ]

100% True, I would also add narrow-minded. Conservative to me is something different. But your sincerity in bringing the issue to the table is pretty evident and appreciable. As a reader, I have issues with the approach and not with the substance.

urstruly #30 I dont think the problem is getting the bell to toll, and so salajit may not be the right medicine.
The problem as I understand from nazar`s post is: ``For whom the bell tolls?`` We are trying to make sure that this ``whom`` is the missus.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#14 by ana_dobarah on June 8, 2003 5:40pm PT

I know we are talking genrealities but sitll we should not discount the power of social thinking.
The utopia of the decision being left to the women does not take into account the peer/social/economic(imagined or real) pressure that affects this choices.
On the other had there is negative pressure on remaining at home.
I feel that for socitey as a whole if there a social value(values usually works in from of celebrating and thus putting a sort of soft pressure)in the woman taking care of family or at least recognising the fact that for most people balancing the family with work is almost impossible.

I know closely eight women who work I know that these are all Indivdual cases which need not reflect the the general experiences.
Let us examine some of them. However in all cases the power of the social values and proaganda of the western (or influenced)culture is to be seen and the affects of it on the people taking decisions.

One is a colleague who is married to a guy who at first seemed to be very emancipiated. first two years went fine then they had a baby, changed city and joined a new company(all at the same time) they invited the guys parents to live with them to help out (as this was a curical time in their careers). It turns out that the parents do not want to keep a servant(becuase they are bharmins) and I used to see this lady go home every 2-3 hours to feed the baby and usually ended up staying late in office to make up for time. In the first six months she lost 10Kgs(she is very slightly built, and has not gained any till date ie 8 years since) they both were earning at that point approx 13 thousand each. At that point In Hyderabad this was a reasonable salary for one to live by.

they now have shifted to bangalore and both work in different companies the wife earns about 10lakh perannaum and the husband earns 7lakh both being managers. The parents both refuse to move out of the house and at the same time give no help either in house hold work or with the kids. This lady works demanding 9-9pm job and gets up at 5 to cook for herself, husband kid and Inlaws who expect the food to be normal and proper. She drops the elder kid to school and goes to office. once she comes back she cooks for the family. They have purchased a 4 bedroom flat costing 40 lakh. Now they are in US where the husband wants to go back in just 8 months stay because the he says that his job profile is not good. The wife is not working and is being pressurised by both the husband and father in law to work since home repayments are high and other household expenses are nearly 40 thousand a month!!

these are the people who just 9 years back had a total income of 12 thousand and were living happily. Now all justifications for the harrasment of the lady come from western values.

similary there is another couple where the husband is a senior finance professional and the wife is a manager in a software company. They have a kid. a few years back they moved to singapore with us and the husband also got a job there in a MNC albiet in a smaller post than what he was used to. they stayed for a year and the husband was thrown out of job because of non preformance and life was hell for the lady. who used to go through a similar routine at the one in the earlier example.

They subsequently returned to India and now they follow a fully american lifestyle. The husband has found a job again he goes to play badminton in the morning when his wife and kid are sleeping and then returns when both his wife and kid are gone to school and work. he returns late and so does she. luckily there is a servant to bring the kid home and feed the kid and now the husband has accepted food being prepared by the maid.
they brought a bigger three bedroom flat now (because the kid does not allow his grandparents to sleep when they are visiting). The kids bringing up is being based on what they call modern values of giving independent room and never scolding (hurts the inner development of the child). Now the wife is thinking of leaving her well paying job(after getting a half time work permission from her employer Intel) after she has discovered how much well behaved her child has become since she has been at home and how much he now hates her going away to office. But she is wondering if they could afford for her not to work.

My sister is another type. She works as a teacher for an inconsuental salary(she spends more on travelling and eating out since she is working). Though my brother in law is was not too happy about this he never raised any objection. Though working has given her a teremdous self confidence she tottally neglects the home front. going to her house you would think a tornado has hit it. food prepared is usually pathetic when it is. My brother in law has not voiced any opinoin on all this except for some (vauge and mild discontent) my mother encourages all this saying that it is good for people to work.
My brother in law is a business man who works 12 hours a day. Now my neices are well behaved(because of having my parents as well as my brother in laws parents who are frequently entrusted the responsiblity)But they have not picked up basic skills like being organised, regular in work and cleanliness(except personal hygine) if a couple of more years pass then they may be past the age of learning such skills.

I know a number of such cases and among the people that I know mostly couples come first belive the myth that working and managing home is not too diffiuclt. The even never learn how their behaviour with each other is affected by the demands of work. Most dont seem to understand what exactly is economic need. for instance the couple in the second case earn about 3 lakh a month and have a accumulated savings and investemnts of more than 60lakhs (all in rupees).

In fact this allround misunderstanding of what constitutes modernity is causing alll these problems. on the other hand I have met couples who have been living in USA for the last 15+ years or more (thus have seen the modern socitey and its pitfalls) are more realistic in this. the also have happier marriages their kids are also more well balanced.

We should not forget to include the affects of modernity as understood by people and its affects on families and socites.

I am not for forcing the women to stay at home but to deglamorise the working woman and to renew the emphais of the role palyed by homemakers in soctey and giving it due importance. Also we need to recognise the pressures that working woman has in todays business envoirment.