For Better or Worse

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urstruly #30 I dont think the problem is getting the bell to toll, and so salajit may not be the right medicine.
The problem as I understand from nazar`s post is: ``For whom the bell tolls?`` We are trying to make sure that this ``whom`` is the missus.

The crux of the article is highlighted below. For the sake of assisting the writer in resolving his queries the interactors should rip apart the following questions.

[How can we better deal with the counter issues as a result of this awareness? Can a man be a little more broad-minded and open up to the presence of women in the workplace? Can he loosen up his ego and stop having an upper hand over her? Can a woman give up her double standards of asking for her rights to work and at the same time expecting her husband to support her for everything? Can she accept that along with the awareness, she should stop having expectations of being pampered for everything and learn to support herself?]

Since the writer`s intentions are good, therefore the following suggestion must be incorporated in his plan to invoke a change:

- Having ``gender studies`` included in the core curriculum of all schools and colleges in Pakistan. Special emphasis needs to be given to communication.

[Of course, we all come from different schools of thought regarding women’s awareness, which also matters. For a lot of people, certain opinions mentioned here would be from a conservative, old fashioned, paranoid male. ]

100% True, I would also add narrow-minded. Conservative to me is something different. But your sincerity in bringing the issue to the table is pretty evident and appreciable. As a reader, I have issues with the approach and not with the substance.

ali87: while i do see what you`re saying, i don`t think that women making choices is a utopia. of course not all women are going to make choices without taking their environs into consideration. i agree that economic pressures force both men and women into working. i also agree that that women as homemakers should be celebrated just as much, because being a homemaker is plenty of work in itself. What I am referring to is the fact that women should not be given ultimatums, or pressured by men especially. what i am saying is that if a woman has a good job that would not interfere with the bringing up of her children, then she should not be given the ultimatum of quitting it or else he quits her. THAT is what i have a problem with. this is not a generalization i`m making here, i`m referring to specific people i know this has happened . And I really don`t want to bring the east vs. west dichotomy into this, because i don`t believe it`s relevant to what i`m saying. you have some interesting observations, but i am not convinced that women making choices about their lives is a utopia, nor am i convinced that it`s purely a western thing. A husband or a father-in-law or even a father should not be the only decision maker in a wife/daughter-in-law or daughter`s life. this kind of thinking keeps us centuries back. . .

Time for some serious stuff:

I do not know how the other religions ordain the treatment of a wife. But I have some working knowledge of Islam. The Islamic injunctions about marriage may have been a great stride forward in the 6 Century Arabia but now with a vastly changed environment, these need to be reinterpreted and reformed:

As a Muslim, I find it very difficult to logically convince a non-Muslim on the following:

(a) Man can have four wives but women can not have four husbands. (earlier arguement in favour was that the husband can not be traced. Now with DNA, that logic is not sufficient)

(b) Man can have slave girls and legally get children out of them. But woman can not have slave men and get legal children out of them.

(c) Quran says that man can beat his wife with stick if she does not listen to him. But wife is not permitted to beat him with stick if he is being unreasonable.

(d) Wife is explicitly required to make herself available for conjugal rights when the husband so desires. But the husband is not required to make himself available for the conjugal rights when the wife so desires.

(e) Quran had specifically permitted only the prophet to have 11 wives at one time. I want to know the rational behind it.

(f) Similarly, prophet had married Aysha who was 8 or 12 year old girl. Our Mulla`s also try to follow this example by marrying young girls as a religious preference following the Sunnah. I am not very comfortable with this.

(g) Man can give divorce by calling it thrice. Wife can not do it.

(h) Man is required to pay bride money to wife after consummation of marriage. Why is the wife exemepted from paying such a fee to the husband?

Any takers?

ZahraJ: Thanku for ur valuable input and ofcourse `education.` I would like to add that this was not an attempt to convey a chauvinist perspective of the situation rather the whole point was to talk in terms of the general social stereotypes which continue to engulf our society. Point being... we want to address an issue which is hardly talked about on such platforms.

ali87: I do agree with you on most of the stuff!

nazarhayatkhan: These are exactly the questions that need to be answered by religious scholars. If you do hear from anyone regarding these queries... do share!

nazar#37
i agree with you.i wonder really these commands were from god.don``t u feel is he a male?we are like children to him ,he should have treated both equally.

Nazar great post --

these are such shameful anomalies in our 1400 years old immutable religion -- ``of all times`` -- that there will be few takers for your very pointed THORNY questions about the dire need for REFORM in Islam -- for modern times.

However -- there is one about four wives -- that a Mullah with some knowledge of biology came up with the following macabre answer:

the women can have four husbands any time they want to -- if -- they can come up with one million ova (ovums) in every ejaculation.

Tehmed32 #27

As usual, you are witty with cutting-edge language and lots of fresh ideas. Thanks.

With the quantity of your prolific posts, it seems that Mrs. Tehmed32 and kids are with in-laws.

Nazar sahab,

Though far from being a scholar (except between the hours of 9 and 9 when I`m cooped up in the library dungeons cramming) allow me to attempt to answer at least some of your queries. This is the way I understand them.

(b) Man can have slave girls and legally get children out of them. But woman can not have slave men and get legal children out of them.
Where does it say that? The only circumstances in which a sexual relationship is permitted between a man and a woman is when they are married to each other. Thus, as soon as a woman marries a man, she ceases to be a slave-girl, and whatever that means, and assumes the status of his wife, with all the rights and privileges associated. There are no clandestine arrangements. You have to remember that as Muslims we believe that God is watching us all the time and that we are absolutely accountable for all that we consciously do. Not even a particle of good or bad is discounted from a person`s behaviour.


(f) A girl cannot be married without her consent, and consent is based upon a certain sensibility. Ibn Majah and some other transmitters report the following hadith: A girl came to the Prophet (peace be on him) and informed him that her father had married her to her cousin against her wishes, whereupon the Prophet (peace be on him) allowed her to exercise her choice. She then said, `I am reconciled to what my father did but I wanted to make it known to women that fathers have no say in this matter.`


(g) This, I was told, was a stipulation of the marriage contract in this part of the world. Woman seldom read the contract themselves and are generally unaware of the legal aspects, and their rights, within the marriage bond.


(h) The mahr is not mere bride money but a gift from a man to the woman who will be his wife. It is an act of love. Islam has simply legalised the tradition but has not associated any amount with it.
I remember reading of an incident where a woman, I believe she was Anas ibn Malik`s mother, asked for her mahr that her suitor convert to Islam. That conversion to the principles of Islam would be his gift to her.

---

A lot of what we see Muslims practising today is not necessarily directly derived from the two sources of the shariah of Islam, ie the Holy Quran and the Prophet`s sunnah, but are actually legal adaptations of these two sources that were originally meant for a particular time and place, a set of circumstances that may be greatly different from our own. These have persisted in the culture of the communities they originated from and have hardened into true legalities even though they were only meant to serve a temporal purpose. And perhaps that`s why Muslims seem to be at such odds with their current circumstances, because they have forgotten what their religion really asks of them, and instead choose to practise a set of rules, long after they have expired.
Though, it needs to be mentioned, that this does not mean that now Islam can immediately be bent to pander to popular culture. The truth is immutable and valid through all time. The need now is for Muslims to return to the original sources and allow that wisdom to inform us in our current circumstances.
Ultimately though, whether it be marriage or the legalities of food and drink or whatever area of human endeavour, one should always keep in mind that one is accountable to God for his actions. As long as a person is conscious of God, he will necessarily stay away from bringing harm to himself or others.

``Allah desires to make clear to you and to guide you to the ways of the (righteous) people before you and to turn to you in mercy; and Allah is Knowing, Wise. And Allah desires to lighten your burden, for man was created weak.``
Surah an-Nisaa, ayahs 26-28

#35 by ana_dobarah on June 9, 2003 8:58pm PT

what I meant was that women (and men too) dont make choices in isolation. There is a prevailing trend in the media (both in news/analysis as well as entertainment and advt)that seeks to change our values with some very illinformed and at times tottally wrong information. We need to recognise the presence of this and to recognise that it influences behaviour. Presently we are like ostirchies who say that the media is a reflection of socitey or reflects the aspriations of scoitey(It can be that posibbly) More often media has a goal ie to sell and at times it gives out the version of aspirations of a class which itself is confused and had very little understanding about socitey and its issues. However since the reach is trememdous it starts to have a very unhealthy influnce in the choices we make.
We need to recognise this influence and accept it for what it is and to make adjustments accordingly. Socitey is more than what the media potrays. Unless there is a strong recognised and channled values by the socitey the media will pretty much play havoc.

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#37 by nazarhayatkhan on June 9, 2003 9:43pm PT

I will avoid giving a completely technical analyis but deal with the questions with common sense.

First thing is that one need not be logically convinced of everything. Somethings that we call logic are simply matter of preference or commonsense.

(a) Man can have four wives but women can not have four husbands. (earlier arguement in favour was that the husband can not be traced. Now with DNA, that

.... That is the same reason why Hugh Hefner is seen with a series of women on his arms and you dont see Maddonna flaunting her various boyfriends at the same time. We could go into the logic of this but I doubt if we will reach any conclusive resoultion.
Question to be asked is are women clamouring to have 4 husbands?
It is our nature to be so. One of the reasons being that usually the marriage is for family(now let us not get into disupute on this)ie children and women carry the child bearing responsiblity. They obviously cant be cavorting around with other men while carrying a baby of other. Remember that a woman needs emotional stabality as well as financial stability at time of pregency and after it. similarly a child requires attention of a mother (as well as a father) and considerable investment in terms of emotion, time is needed by some one. And till date it is found that women are better at this than men. I know we could argue the finer points of all this to death but commonsense is what most people understand except the educated morons.

(b) Man can have slave girls and legally get children out of them. But woman can not have slave men and get legal children out of them.

..I havent had much thought to this. So I wont comment.

c) Quran says that man can beat his wife with stick if she does not listen to him. But wife is not permitted to beat him with stick if he is being unreasonable
It is not listen but only when she is being extremely destructive that too the qualification is to beat as light as a feather. Ie symbolic the act of being reprimanded physicaly itself can be a great matter of shame for many people(Physical beating is not advised at all). In singapore when a ticketless traveller is detected nothing is done except a new ticket is given. People are so ashamed that they hide their faces and getoff the bus.

d) Wife is explicitly required to make herself available for conjugal rights when the husband so desires. But the husband is not required to make himself available for the conjugal rights when the wife so desires.

.. No the husband is expected to satisfy the desires of the wife too. Only the route for restoration of this right is slightly different. A wife can divorce on basis of not being satisfied sexually. Now this is a matter of Implementation of law. Theorically a woman can say she is not satisfied even if a sexual activity is there every day.

e) Quran had specifically permitted only the prophet to have 11 wives at one time. I want to know the rational behind it.

the rationale is that since Islam was in its Infancy and most tribes treated marriage as a method to cement relations this was the permission given to the Prophet so as to enable the nacent Islamic nation to gain strength.

f) Similarly, prophet had married Aysha who was 8 or 12 year old girl. Our Mulla`s also try to follow this example by marrying young girls as a religious preference following the Sunnah. I am not very comfortable with this.

early marriage was not a problem in any socitey till a recently ie last hundred years.

Earlier socitey number of professions were limited and they did not require lenghty studies. Life has become more complex today. People have to master many aspects of knowledge and skills before they are able to make a living. Thus they are not capbable of supporuting themselves till a much later age. girls are similarly expected to match at least some of these skills(as a mother she has to suitable to bringing up childeren who can compete in the present circumstances) thus the marriageable age is higher in our socitey.
earlier socitey the family grouping was a source of security and thus the girl could marry earlier as all that she had to learn was how to bring up children and do some basic chores. since families were either joint or close to each other and interdependent more than they are now there was a suppourt sturcture avaiable for the young girl to cope with the task of raising children and looking after the family.
Todays socitey it is no longer so. However this varies to a large extent from place to place. You will find that in richer families women tend to marry early since they are able to find husbands who depend on family wealth and dont need to struggle too much to suppourt a family. If ones checks with the womens entrepruners groups in India you will find that many of the successful entrepruners have had pretty early marriages at times even finishing college after marriage and raisign childern to a age of about 7-10 they have got involved in business. Ie they took thier time getting comfortable with their family resposnibilites and then ventured out to do other things. There are a few women writers too who were married at 15(this age was quite common earlier for marriage) and found that they lost nothing at all in their lives. Generally a girl is considered to be sexually capable when she reaches puberty usually this is around 12-13 and typically it takes about a year or so for the menustration cycles to stabilize. Since it is the nature of humuans to have sex when they are capable(as evidenced by sexually active teens all over the world) a early marriage has no harm usually. However in todays stressfull and chalengeing socitey where family suppourt is not what it was before this can lead to very bad situations. Therefore it is sensible to postpone the marriage age by a few years. However all people dont have this problem and thus marriage at 15-18 should be ok at least in a few cases. In any case there are more early teen pregancies in the west than early teen marriages in our countries. Usually these teens giveup thier children for adoption. I feel if socitey is kinder then it will suppourt such families to adjust with the situation for a few years so the family (ie mother , father and child) remain one unit.
However there is a social myth in the west which calls for discovering themselves and making the right choice (however it seems that they dont reflect that with all the discovering they still make the wrong choices going by the divorce rate)

g) Man can give divorce by calling it thrice. Wife can not do it.

.... this is a peculiary sunni practice. I doubt wethere it will stand the test of time. while the provision is there for divorcing by calling out there is also clear indication that this has to be done with an intervening period of one month(no matter howmuch you call the divorce within the period).
The shias dont accept this method. Divorce is done by the same method as is the marriage ie through writing. Similarly there is a waiting periond of a month after which if there is no reconciliation(reconciliation is mandatory but not implemneted by most law, this is a matter of practice which can be changed). if there is a reconciliation or a indecision the man can take back his wife however the limit is three such times after which the divorce becomes final no matter wether he wants to take her back then or not(ie he cannot for ever threathen to divorce her and then tell that he will take her back)
Singapore implements the Muslim personal law in the above manner. Ie all divorce has no value till it is written and in front of court oppinted officals. Martial consuelling is compulsary after notice of divorce isgiven and is done through court appointed mulsim functoinaires. similarly the withdarwal of intent to divorce is done in writing. Malaysia and Indonesia are also considering these laws(there is opposition of course)

(h) Man is required to pay bride money to wife after consummation of marriage. Why is the wife exemepted from paying such a fee to the husband?

I think this is answered earlier so I dont need to add.

In comparing logic one cant do it in isolation especially in subjective cases. can you make the logic of a man having no penalty in breaking his marriage vows and also having to take responsibility of his offspring out of any union even as he is married and the opposition for bigamy in the modern systems?
Islam allows more than one wife with the permission of the other wives(ie wifes have objeiction then they can seek divorce) while there is punishment if a person betrays his marriage vows and cheats. If the wife agrees then he can marry another woman (ie if he wants to have sexual relations he has to take up financial as well as moral responsibility of both wife and children). However in modern law there is no penalty for cheating. a man (or woman )can cheat all that they want without fear of punishment. However the woman has no choice in objecting to this at all with the exception that she can divorce the man. The man however is free to have relations with the other woman without taking any financial resposnibility of either the woman or her children(they can calim for maintannence after the fact ie it is not automatic theyhave to go through a expensive court process for it.)

I dont think I could have given cold logic to such subjective issues but those are some of the ways you could look at those issues.

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#37 by nazarhayatkhan

I would like to field these questions though they have been discussed ad nauseum and have been answered every which way possible:

(a) Man can have four wives but women cannot have four husbands. (earlier arguement in favour was that the husband can not be traced. Now with DNA, that logic is not sufficient)

One must understand that allowing men to marry up to 4 woman is not the only edict in Islam, there is almost every aspect of personal and social life of human beings that are discussed at length in Qura`n and Hadith. The spectrum ranges from very personal matters of a human being to the conduct of nations. So it is better to understand this issue in the perspective of the whole picture. In other words Islam dictates a complete code of life, which not only trains the conduct of an individual but also forms a society with a collective outlook.

While the issue of paternity remains the crux of the argument, there are also personal, legal, biological, psychological and social matters that are inter-related and are also effected. In the end it all boils down to human nature. It is not in the nature of man (or woman) to attach oneself to the seed of other. Yes you can determine paternity by DNA and you can enact a law that forces people to take care of their offspring but you cannot make a law or force someone to love another. This is something that comes from inside. This is the human nature. A human child is not a puppy. It takes years of dedication and love to create an individual that ultimately benefits society.

Polygamy and polyandry have been and still are in practice in almost every society around the globe. Islam however, prescribes only one way of having a relationship between man and woman and that is through Nikah which in turn imposes certain responsibilities on the participants – and that is necessary to keep the order in the society. In other words conduct of individual affects society. That is the reason an elaborate set of rights and responsibilities has been prescribed by Islam. If we look at the issue of four husbands vs. four wives through the prism of those rights and responsibilities the arrangement of four husbands does not fit in.

This is a multifaceted issue, which has facets of sociology, psychology, biology, economics, and jurisprudence. People address this issue usually discussing one facet at a time since the subject is vast. It doesn`t mean that one argument has more value than the other but on the other hand every argument is like a building block that completes the picture. So a better way to ask this question is if you put it like ``What are the biological reasons women are not allowed four husbands`` or ``what are psychological reasons why women are not…?``.

Would you want to rephrase your question?

(b) Man can have slave girls and legally get children out of them. But woman can not have slave men and get legal children out of them.

Ansari has already answered this question in detail. But allow me to add that vice versa is also true, that is, a woman can ``have`` a slave man and get legal children out of him too. The only way to do that, however, is through nikah – and it is applicable to both men and women. A Muslim man and woman is not allowed to have sex with slaves and cannot force slaves to have sex with someone for money etc. There is an elaborate body of Islamic law, which deals with these issues. A sample of such decrees can be found here at Imam Malik`s Muwatta. Holy Prophet (pbuh) married his freed slave Zaid to his first cousin Zainab thus abolishing the concept of slaves and master and upper and lower classes in the society.

(c) Quran says that man can beat his wife with stick if she does not listen to him. But wife is not permitted to beat him with stick if he is being unreasonable.

Qura`n doesn`t say that and therefore, the question is wrong. There is only one circumstance when a man is allowed to hit his wife ``lightly`` but only after when he has fulfilled certain other requirements. This issue was discussed in detail at chowk. Click

(d) Wife is explicitly required to make herself available for conjugal rights when the husband so desires. But the husband is not required to make himself available for the conjugal rights when the wife so desires.

The truth is contrary to that. It is made incumbent upon man to sexually gratify his wife, whereas vice versa is not. A man is not allowed to force his wife to have sex when she doesn`t feel like it. This is an issue between man and woman. But what if either man or woman cannot resolve this issue by themselves? The Muslim jurists, old and new, have ruled on this issue through several angles, which makes it a thorny and controversial issue because it involves the interference of state into the extremely personal matter of a couple. This matter can be controversial in any society, given its nature. However, the contention in the question is inaccurate.

(e) Quran had specifically permitted only the prophet to have 11 wives at one time. I want to know the rational behind it.

Again the question is wrong. Qura`n doesn`t specifically address this issue of 11 wives. However, some of the Hadith address this issue. One must, however, keep in mind that Islam did not descend upon Muslims (through Prophet (pbuh) in just one instance – like Moses who got all his instructions during one visit to the Mount. It took 23 years to complete the message of Allah. The divine order of prohibition of liquor came sometime in 12th year of prophet-hood, before that Muslims used to drink. Even some of the closest of his friends are known to have imbibed. Similarly, the custom of marriage also changed as orders were descended along the time. The permissibility of up to four wives was also such an order which came when Holy Prophet and several of his companion already had several wives. So people asked question as to what to do with their existing wives whose number exceeded four. Such issues are discussed in hadith. But since Qura`n has a precedence over Hadith, when Islamic Law was being formulated under the five fiqah (schools of thought) the maximum number of wives one can have was set at four.

But if you look at the Qura`nic edict that ``permits`` four marriages, deeply, you might be able to comprehend the wisdom in it. You will see that Islam actually promotes monogamy. It sets the bar quite high to be able to marry more than one woman. See the verse ``Marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one or one that your right hands possess. That will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.`` (Qur`an 4:3)

So what does it mean by …``but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with them….``? What is the justice between wives? Can we quantify it? The first condition is that the first wife must buy into the idea that bringing in a second wife will be just to her since she is the most affected party. Hence Muslim jurists have imposed the first condition that the man should have expressed permission from his first wife. Another, Islamic edict forbids a woman to force her suitor to divorce his first wife. A woman cannot legally or morally impose this condition. Then Islamic laws also designate man as to bear the full financial responsibility of his family. If a man doesn`t have financial means he can be prevented by state to commit second marriage. These are very old laws and have been in practice for centuries. If people violate these laws then the laws are not bad, it is their enforcement. For example, the shariat court in Morroco has argued that the condition under which men were permitted four wives was after the battle of Uhad (the second battle) when a lot of Muslim men died in the battle leaving widows and orphans. And since now there is no such situation therefore, a moratorium can be imposed for more than one marriages. The law is in effect in Morroco.

(f) Similarly, prophet had married Aysha who was 8 or 12 year old girl. Our Mulla`s also try to follow this example by marrying young girls as a religious preference following the Sunnah. I am not very comfortable with this.

This contention is wrong, Mullah`s have actually done contrary to that. But first one must understand that under Islam law the age of consent for woman is not set at some arbitrary number. For example, in Canada the age of consent is 16, which according to United States standards make all Canadians pedophiles. In US this age is arbitrarily set at 18 years of age. In Islamic law, this age is set, basically, at the onset of puberty. Muslim jurists discuss the signs of puberty in detail – one such sign of course is the time when woman starts her reproductive cycle, which is triggered by the onset of menses. But this trigger mechanism varies from individual to individual. Some girls menstruate at 8 and some don`t menstruate until they are 16 or older. The knowledge when a woman starts menstruating is not a public matter it is a very personal matter. A woman can conceal her menstrual cycle from the closest of her relatives if she wants to. On the other hand a parent might force his underage daughter to marry someone for greed etc. declaring that she already has passed the age of puberty. When five fiqah of law were being formulated, these questions were discussed at length. Imam Abu Hanifa the founder of Hanfi fiqah has thus ruled based on these scenarios that the age of consent for a women should be arbitrarily set at 16 years. The Muslim Family law of Pakistan, of 1962 sets the age of consent at age 16, which is based on Hanfi law. Imam Malik, set this age at 15 years.

In order to keep a double check, Islam also introduces the concept of Wali. A Wali is a parent or a legal guardian. A woman cannot marry unless she has an express permission of her Wali. But it doesn`t mean that Islam restricts women to marry their own choice. In case a woman is of age of consent and she wants to marry but her Wali doesn`t allow, then state acts as her Wali. Now state as a Wali has the obligation to confirm that the woman is of the age of consent. Similarly, under Hanfi law the age of consent for boys is 17 years. Please keep in mind that the term ``age of consent`` has a different meaning in Islamic law, since the only sexual relationship permitted between man and woman is through Nikkah (marriage).

So if you feel uncomfortable to allow your 16 year old daughter to marry someone you as her parent have a right to forbid her but then she has the right to involve state in it. That is the current law in Pakistan and most of the Islamic countries.

(g) Man can give divorce by calling it thrice. Wife cannot do it.

This was true at the time when Muslim fiqah (law) were not established (i.e. prior to the rulings of the five Imams) but Islamic law of divorce has grown to be quite complex after that. For example, the three talaq become invalid if the woman was pregnant at the time, according to Hanfi law. The fiqah allows a lot more intrusive role as an arbiter to the state now.

My perception, however, is that by giving men an easier way to divorce God has placed more responsibility on their shoulder as compared to women.

(h) Man is required to pay bride money to wife after consummation of marriage. Why is the wife exemepted from paying such a fee to the husband?

Under Islamic law, a man is legally responsible for the maintenance of his wife and household. Woman, although, is allowed to work but her earnings are her to keep. Similarly, she doesn`t have to share anything if she receives a gift or dowry from her father. Man is also responsible to contribute financially to the good causes in the society, whereas a woman can but she is not required to. Similarly, the bride money or mehr is an agreed amount that husband must pay his wife ``before`` consuming the marriage. That is her right given to her by Allah. A man when dies cannot prevent her wife from getting his inheritance. Man is also responsible for financial maintenance of his daughter, sister, and mother whereas woman is not responsible to maintain her male relatives. The man on the other hand inherits double the portion of his female counterpart. So the short answer to your question is that it is a part of financial arrangement between men and women. It is a part of big picture.

nazarhayat #41 thanks. :-) like i said, you are a real good sport and i really appreciate your having a good sense of humor and not getting easily offended. we need more people like you on chowk.

i do indeed write more on chowk than i should. its not that there is any shortage of things to do. its just that this place is too much fun given the variety of backgrounds the posters come from - i doubt if you could get such a diverse chat group together in real life. by now i have become such an expert on chowk that it really does not take long to click the mouse button to take the computer out of hibernation and to belt out a couple of posts in between things.