Who Wants Peace, BAYBEH?

well said ...harimau

but...jokes apart...I feel it is enough now..this blame game..it is not going to take India anywhere. The only solution is let us all Indians forget the sad history..and move on hand in hand, all of us ....hindus and muslims and other religions....
Let us try to rectify our mistakes...heal the wounds..think positively...

Muslims in India should also realise that whether they like it or not..they are Indians first and then muslims...unlike the rest of the world muslims where they are muslims first and then..whatever..
In India only secularism can work and not muslim brotherhood or hindu brotherhood..and if the fanatic elements donot listen..then we are all doomed with nobody else to blame but..

Ref m_souza #34

First Rule (in fact, the only rule):

Only Muslims are victims. Nobody else has any right to be a victim. They merely have the right to be rapidly dispatched to the Next World.

Whenever Muslims kill non-Muslims, it if the Muslims who suffer by seeing all the blood and gore. If Allah had any sense, He would have made sure that Kaffirs don`t bleed thus eliminating the trauma Muslims have to endure in carrying out their religious obligations.

Farzana Bibi...I mean Baybeh

Good effort....and it reminds me of something...

My grandparents who had their families living in Rawalpindi and Gujaranwala of pre-partition India (now Pakistan)..were absolutely mercilessly kicked out of their homes..like paupers...and the horrible scenes my grandmother and her little kids(including my father) saw with their eyes...Gosh!!!!...I am sure their weeping could write a similar poem.

Women`s breasts were cut off right in front of thier bewildered eyes...they were raped..little girls were raped...little hindu boys were forcibly converted to Islam by cutting off....their penises...while a bunch of muslims watched and laughed at them...I mean circumcising them forcibly. And that is why there are not too many hindus in Paksitan (all forced to convert so as to let them survive)...and if tehy refused..they were slaughtered...yes ..these very scenes haunted the minds of hindus for years....and all this happened for no fault of theirs...it happened because muslims wanted to cleanse the land of hindus. That is what your Jinnah did to you muslims...he brought you all a misery... and that time it was all muslim fault....
Again now in Godhra..it was started by fanatic Indian muslims...but the innocent muslims paid the price..

Yes...these things happen...bad as they are...maybe history has a habit of repeating itself.

So..let us stop blame game....you talk about one Madam X...I know of many genuine Hindu organisations and women and men who went to muslim camps in Gujarat to look after the innocent victims..and served them selflessly. There are all sorts of people in this world...but you have this habit of looking at the bad ones.

Ross Perot`s wise words:

``An activist isn`t one who says the river is dirty. An activist is one that cleans the river.``

Any solutions for cleaning our dirty river?

Satire

I respect my readers too much to believe that they could praise me without understanding...

Therefore...thanks ahmadzai (if you can still get your band in order, it will be delightful), tidbit (am touched, weally!), samina (:)), ana (hey, sorry about not responding to your msgs on the Saddam board; I believe aapka koi bandaa was moonlighting for me with his chaand sa mukhdaa!), veeresh (I will tell you about Madame X in person...and I do not think we have reached the stage where we need to discuss about when/how/why to meet here at Chowk...you know where to find me), Ras (have explained the use of baybeh...I agree ``ain`t`` could have been done away with...am smiling over your description of my writing in general!).

It was important for me to write this poem, and the only thing that can devastate me is the reality around me.

Regards,
Farzana

Viva la Turkiya --

SAVASA HAYIR -- NO TO WAR

BRAVO! TURKIYA -- Three cheers for Ataturk`s Turkiya -- Savasa Hayir

who wants peace: Turks do....

Turkey upsets US military plans

Turkey`s parliament has narrowly failed to approve the deployment of US troops on its territory for a possible war with neighbouring Iraq.

MPs voted 264-250 in favour of the deployment, but the motion fell four votes short of the required majority of deputies present in the chamber.

The vote came amid mounting pressure from Washington, which has ships laden with tanks anchored off the Turkish shore.

In its first reaction, the State Department asked for ``clarification`` of the Turkish vote.

Turkey will receive $15bn in aid (BRIBE) and loans from the US if it allows the deployment.

The motion - if passed in a subsequent vote scheduled on 4 March - would also authorise the government to send Turkish troops to Kurdish-populated northern Iraq in the event of war.

The US urgently wants to deploy 62,000 troops and more than 250 planes in Turkey as part of its military plans.

Turkey could send twice as many troops to northern Iraq.
The BBC`s Jonny Dymond in Ankara says the knife-edge vote is a massive blow for the four-month-old Turkish Government which has a massive majority in parliament.

But he says, it is in accord with overwhelming popular disapproval of a war against Iraq - thousands took to the streets as the vote was being taken.

Anti-war feeling
More than 50 deputies disobeyed the leaders of the governing Justice and Development party.

No-one expected the vote to be so close, our correspondent says, and no-one knows what will come next.

The Turkish Government now faces the prospect of either conceding its loss and forfeiting the deal that it worked out so painfully with the United States or calling another vote in the hope that some of its own MPs might change their minds.

Opinion polls show that 80% of Turks are opposed to the war and tens of thousands of protesters, from academics to family parties, turned out in central Ankara. (BBC)

Farzana,
if you could only do away with the ``baybeh`` in this poem, this is
wonderful. Your style has always been to storm the reader with the most unusual tact. This one is no different as we try to recover.
There is just too much going on in this writing even without ``baybeh`` and ``ain`t``.

Ras

Hey Farzana . . . are you checking out the unplugged about meeting up in Bombay . . . btw why wouldn`t Madame X wear leotards please?

.... stop complaining - here is some really bad stuff ........

http://www.coffeeshoptimes.com/badpoet.html

Re: #18 by The Farzana Versey,

Ohh, someone here cannot take a bit of a critique on her writings. My aim is not to devastate you, Your own incompetence in writing poems should accomplish that.

Never understood why so many didn`t understand the poem but praised it anyway. And some authors are so used to flattery, they are oblivious to genuine opinions. Any praise is a praise, and any other comment is the ``mother of all attacks``.

And yes Temporal`s poem is different from yours. In a different class entirely.


Satire

Farzana,
wow...time doesn`t permit me right now to write what I wish to..am about to be kicked off this computer...but i find this very moving...will write more when am not too hurried.
love you,
ana

````Hans Blix, a chief weapons inspector at the United Nations, said that destruction of the Al Samoud 2 missiles, ``is to start tomorrow,`` according to Baghdad, ``so maybe tomorrow evening or Sunday we will have more to say.``

Mr. Blix`s top deputy, Demetrius Perricos, was in Baghdad today to discuss ``the pace of the destruction`` with the Iraqis. He was to meet Iraqi officials on Saturday morning about possibly starting the destruction process later in the day, a spokesman for the inspectors, Hiro Ueki, said today.

Mr. Blix ordered the missiles` destruction by Saturday after his inspectors found that they exceeded the 93-mile-range limit imposed by the Security Council.

Iraq`s last-minute agreement has served to confirm firmly-held positions among members of the Security Council on the next steps required to enforce Iraq`s disarmament and will add to the jockeying for votes.

Mr. Ivanov of Russia, on a visit to Beijing, said Moscow would not support any resolution that opened the way for the use of force in Iraq and would use its veto ``if necessary, in the interest of international stability.``

France, a leader of the camp opposed to an invasion of Iraq, welcomed Baghdad`s statement as ``an important step in the disarmament of Iraq`` and said it showed United Nations arms inspections were producing results.

Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin, speaking after talks in Paris with his Greek counterpart George Papandreou, said:

``There is no reason to discontinue the peaceful disarmament of Iraq. We are opposed to the draft second resolution, as is a majority of the Security Council, and notably Russia.``

In Madrid, Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain dismissed Iraq`s pledge to begin dismantling its missiles.``(NYT)

Question: is Blix a Bush`s secret agent trying to disarm Iraq before the invasion to minimize American casualties? -- nah

Wowee....now THATS a poem throwing down a gauntlet!

India is a status quo power. Regardless of its current public stance, India will gladly agree to turning the LOC into a permanent international border. It is Pakistan that feels that it must acquire the entire Jammu & Kashmir to ``finish the unfinished business of partition.``

Pakistan`s ruling elite has a vested interest to paint India as the eternal enemy of Pakistan. It will continue to do so even if India were to aquiesce to the permanent exile of all residents of Jammu & Kashmir whose ethnicity, ideology or faith does not meet the approval of Pakistan`s ruling elite and even if India were to hand over the entire state of Jammu & Kashmir on a platter to Pakistan.

When Pakistan`s military swears by:
(1) the ``martial race theory``
(2) asserts that one Pakistani soldier can take care of ten ``Hindu`` soldiers or,
(3) promises compatriots that they will unfurl Pakistan`s flag at the Red Fort,
it does so, not because it believes in the bluster, but because that makes it easier for the military to usurp a disproportionate share of the country`s wealth for the Kakul kleptocrats.

In real life, Pakistan`s military has always been far tougher on its own citizens, most of them unarmed, than on armed soldiers of ``enemy`` countries. Thus, General Tikka Khan is far better known to the world as the Butcher of Bengal and as the Butcher of Balochistan than as the Knight in shining armor who will ride his big white horse to the Red Fort to unfurl Pakistan`s flag.

When Pakistan`s military breathes fire, it is to ``prove`` to Pakistani citizens that the military is indispensable to the nation`s welfare. But this is nothing but a fraud because the primary aim is to make sure that Pakistan`s army can continue steal a disproportinate share of the country`s wealth for itself.

I have no reason to believe that Pakistan`s ruling elite cares any more for justice in Jammu & Kashmir than it cares for justice for the residents in Pakistan itself or for justice to the ``Biharis`` left to rot in refugee camps for 3 decades.

Those that had preached, ``Haske liya Pakistan, ladke lenge Hindustan,`` on the morrow of independence, those that continue to preach, ``One Pakistani soldier is more than ten ``Hindu`` soldiers,`` will not change their tune or stance even if Jammu & Kashmir is handed over to them on a platter. They have a strong need to have India as an enemy country to justify the usurption of a disproportionate share of the nation`s wealth for themselves.

Pakistan`s military lobby was strong enough to force the break-away of the majority of Pakistanis in 1971 in order to preserve its own interest in the rest of the country. Today, it is just as determined to perpetuate conflict with India and for the very same reason. Jammu & Kashmir is merely the most convenient excuse at the moment. But, in its absence, it won`t take long for Pakistan`s military to find yet another excuse.

But there is a limit to what the people will tolerate. And when the Kakul kleptocrats exhausted the patience of the long suffering ordinary citizens of Pakistan, the Tsunami of their wrath did not spare even the Ayub Khans and the Yahya Khans. It will not spare Pervez Musharraf either.

Those Who Want To See It

Dilip D`Souza

I remind you of all this sorrow and tragedy because of the repeat we watched in horror in Gujarat a year ago. After a mob of Muslims launched a cowardly and vicious attack on innocents on a train in Godhra, an attack that burned 60 people to death, weeks of `spontaneous retaliation` against innocent Muslims across Gujarat left several hundred more people slaughtered. The carnage, whether on a train or on Gujarat`s streets, scarred a nation, lives in our memories; you don`t need me to spell it all out again.

In any case, there were innumerable reports of senior Gujarat leaders camping in police control rooms to direct police action or inaction. The administration allegedly managed to delay the effective use of the army; by the time soldiers took their positions, vast slaughter had already happened.

So much for spontaneity. The Gujarat violence, like the destruction of Babri Masjid, like the Bombay riots a decade ago, like Nazi attacks on Jews, was spurred on and applauded by our own leaders. As always, the evidence -- voters` lists, ministerial pronouncements, gas cylinders -- gives the lie to claims of `spontaneity.`

For those who want to see the evidence, of course.

rest at:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/feb/27dilip.htm

Re: Harimou

Jinnah is dead. Jinnah`s dream or vision or hopes or fears died with him. Jinnah was a man; a politican and whether he was good or bad, wise or foolish, brave or weak is a question not to be decided through personalized embitterness or rancour. Whether Jinnah made mistakes or not is a academic debate, which will never solve the problems facing Pakistan. Yes, Jinnah can be said to have contributed to the problems facing Pakistan, but that pales in comparsion to the question of how those problems are to addressed and solved.

Jinnah belongs to history and let history judge him and his legacy is a historic memory, which can be endlessly debated. You can blame the ills of India on Jinnah, if you like, and blame the state of its minorities on his policies. Remember, Jinnah was not alone in the process, which led to the British leaving India in 1947 - Jinnah was the product of his times and his political environment. The reality of partition is that it was a series of mistakes compounded by a lack of compromise on all sides. India, too, was bequeated a legacy from partition and though you may blame Jinnah for its present problems, those problems will not be solved by blaming him. The problems of India will solved by Indians just like the problems of Pakistan will be solved by Pakistanis without blaming one another and I can assure you, the problems in both the nations will never be solved as long as we blame each other for our misfortunes and mistakes.

Both India and Pakistan, if they are to progress, have to move beyond the insecurities of parition and its aftermath and to accept the reality of their present, without seeking the impossible by making their future a mirror of what their past was once. Hate and finger pointing has to give way to tolerance and understanding and the arrogance of history, which justifies the hatred between the two nations, has to yeild to humility; humility based on the awareness that both India and Pakistan are flawed. Both India and Pakistan are flawed, because their leaders are flawed by the virtue of being human beings and not demi-gods of omniscience. Humility comes not only from accepting one`s own faults, but in tolerating the other person`s faults as well.

If blaming Jinnah would cure all of India`s problems, then please hate Jinnah and blame him to your heart`s content. If, on the other hand, blaming Jinnah does not solve India`s problem, then what have you gained or solved by blaming Jinnah? Does hate ever solve anything? Has placing the blame ever solved anything? If not, then why pursue an endeavor, which is so futile and without any merit?

Ciao

Dear Farzana,

There are few exceptional writers on Chowk...you are one of them...

``I said I stocked up on mascara
So when I cry
My lashes can write
History on my cheeks.``

poignant....overwhelming....has given rise to emotions that I thought were dead...
keep writing...

samina

Just wanted to say that this is the result of a conversation that took place between a Madame X prototype and me. She was in this “Dahling, I want to do something for lesser mortals” and the “baybeh, put up your hands… all those who want peace” mode. Which is when I asked myself, “Who wants peace, baybeh?” It is not a word I use in everyday language, and certainly not with that twang. (It might seem ‘hackneyed’ to an objective reader, though.) However, after this episode, it was I who felt helpless because in my individual capacity I could and can do precious little. The flippancy of these terms in a work that made me terribly depressed is due to this sense of ‘futility’.

So, yes Aamir, aap theek keh rahe hai. And godot, jaan kar bhi anjaan rehna is an art form perfected by those who cannot even see the sea from their islands. Jawahara, thanks…would truly like to know how you have ‘re-read’ the poem later.

Usually, one tries to convey feelings through poetry and those feelings are about opinions one might have. For those who pretend ignorance, I did this in “Every Nightmare has a Reason” on Chowk itself way back in 2001(Sept 12). Therefore…

Satire: wish you had tried to live up to your new nick and not been so obvious and silly. This is your ‘first’ post ever – was the rejected one encomiums you had showered on temporal’s poem? Wonder why Chowk editors decided to snick that one. And if you think I would feel devastated by what you have said, it won’t work. Any fool can see that temp and I write differently, though we may think alike. So, do not even try to pit me against t and mess around in this race, for if there will be egg anywhere it will be on your face. Also, next time, smarten your act; referring to me as “FZ” is a dead giveaway. Treat this bit of advice as my ‘zakaat’ for the day…

t: Any effort to express one’s anger/disappointment is a sign of life…
re. “Disagreement and decorum” you mention to someone, the problem with some people is not of disagreement, but to merely force an issue and impute motives. For example, where is the ‘lie’ in this poem? khair…

Subroto: Whatever be your views about this piece, in a work of 500 odd words, “baybeh” is used four times, including the headline. I would in fact like to see it sung…I am a huge Eminem fan, but if you prefer rock, that’s fine by me.

Sobia: Thanks. If it ‘spoke’ to you, then it is enough. A few days/weeks down the line, I might understand my own poem differently.

Just as I am surprised that my khoja blood is being flung at me when all this while I was an “ISI agent” who had to be sent off to Kabul to a mullah’s harem etc…things do come a full circle.

Although Farzana might have written it on Godhra, Gujrat or whatever, it applies equally to several other places - Croatia, Bosnia, Somalia, Seirraleone (spelling ?), Hootoos versus Tootsies, Shatilla and Sabra in Lebanon, Afghanistan, Bangla Desh, East Temur - places that I have traveled to or have been near enough and know about these tragic episodes through the eyewitnesses.

In a lighter vein, if I still had my blues based heavy metal band that I used to play drums for in the early 90s, I would have stolen this poem. It would have gone perfectly well with a blues scales and strong riffs in a gloom and doom kind of music situation. The word Baybeh and dahling would have fitted in well too. If Metallica hears about this, I am sure they too will consider it playing ;)

This is very very good.

``There is no mud without rain.`
(Kashmiri proverb)

excellent piece, Farzana. I won`t say I completely understood all of it (I`m not that profound yet!:)) but what all I could understand, I liked..a lot!

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Lets get back to the poem folks, those who want to fight other battles - well there are other boards where you can go.
Poems like this are generally written as a result of strong feeling and emotions that we have on certain topics/event/persons and provide an outlet to the storms within. Catharsis - thats the word I was looking for. So all I am saying is that while writing this may have helped Farzana I am not too impressed by this effort. But then we are back to the good poetry/bad poetry debate.
On the other hand with all the ``baybeh`` in it maybe you need to read it as a rock song and perhaps sung with the appropriate music it just might.... yeah yeah yeah

Harimau Ref #7

We all are Indians. Period. Jinnah is dead man. He could not have lived longer any way. Some one would have shot him dead. We should worry about Indian Muslims, their betterment in every department of life. They are part and parcel of India just like any other community. Jinnah had a vision about non muslims of Pakiland ``Hindus will cease to be Hindus``. Boy was he ever right?

Ferz:

hatred is vicious and destructive…it feeds of itself…the pariwar and the orthodox beards have hijacked their respective religions and are the evil twins…we are the sleeping and complacent fodder…unless we show signs of life and wake up…oh! the travails of the silent majority…

bspnd

t

ps: harimau i thought you were well bred...disagreement and decorum should not be mutually exclusive

harimou#7
What Jinnah said is not relevant here. This may be a Pakistani site, but India is not Pakistan, Farzana is not Pakistani and Jinnah is not the father of our nation.

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Let me quote from Rafiq Zakaria`s book, `The Man who Divided India`.

{The [Cabinet] Mission asked Jinnah: ``Do you realize that the Pakistan you are demanding will leave substantial Hindus under Muslim domination?``

Jinnah replied: ``That will be so; but I will leave many more Muslims under Hindu domination in Hindustan.``

Surpised at this reply, the Mission said: ``How does it then resolve Hindu-Muslim discord? It will only perpetuate the hostilities.``

Jinnah persisted: ``I will free at least two-third Muslims from Hindu domination.``

The Mission told him: ``And you will put more than that number of Hindus under Muslim domination. That is no solution.``

Jinnah was adamant. He asserted: ``That is the only solution if you don`t want civil war.``

The Mission was nonplussed at his stand and asked: ``But should you adopt such a callous attitude towards the minorities in the two states, they will be in worse condition than the Muslims in united India -- also the Muslims in divided India will be the worst sufferers.``

Jinnah replied: ``Their best protection will be the establishment of two strong states, neither of which will dare misbehave towards each other`s minorities.``

The Mission enquires: ``You mean to say that these minorities will be hostages.``

Jinnah said: ``Exactly. If one state mistreats its minorities, the other state will retaliate against its minorities. It will be tit for tat.``

The Mission was aghast at this reply and remarked: ``That is a horrible concept which did not work even in medieval times.``

Jinnah stood his ground and asserted: ``Fear is the most potent weapon; I am sure the rulers in either state will be wise enough to conduct themselves properly. They will be afraid of retaliation against their co-religionists.``]

So, Fakhrs, what IS the problem? The only stupid thing the Pakistanis did was to get rid of their minorities so that they don`t have much of a minority population to retaliate against. If Jinnah had been alive (yes, let me take off on all those who say that if only Jinnah had lived longer, we would have a secular constitutional democracy in Pakistan), he would have ordered retaliation against the Hindu minority in Pakistan.

So how many of you think that this is FartsAna`s way of deflecting attention away from the recent confession of the prime accused in the Godhra train case?

How about a detailed write-up on that maulvi`s confession about how he was paid off to collect a mob and do some mischief in Gujarat?

Or should I expect the stale lie that if not for Godhra, Narendra Modi and the BJP would have used some other pretext.

The fact IS that there was NO other anti-Muslim riot anywhere in India on any pretext, real or imagined under the BJP.

Keep lying, FartsAna, it must be in the blood of the Khoja Muslims... just like Jinnah lied, you are also lying.

Farzana, this was quite beautiful and poignantly written. I have to re-read it a few times to uncover the layers of imagery, meanings and feelings.

Is Farzana trying to do a ``Temporal``.
A copy-cat attempt to render an opinion via a poem

While his was pure, clear, and original
FZ`s is convoluted, obfuscated, and a copy-cat

good poem farzana but yes, it does seem futile doesn`t it?

Very powerful. It`s a pity that not everyone will understand it, and those who do not want to understand it obviously will not.

Gandhi said ``You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty``.

baybeh and dahling too hackneyed, otherwise good effort, albeit depressing.

Curious, What is baybeh.