Tunnel Vision

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#11 by pmishra2 on February 24, 2003 7:23pm PT
#8 rsridhar

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``.........The other notable thing about Pankaj Mishra is that he once wrote an article blaming the Chattingsinghpora (J&K) massacre of a sikh community on the indian goverment. No evidence was provided but I guess it just felt right to stick it to these hindu fascists. Several months later Barry Bearak wrote a good investigative article in the NYT that established the entire jehadi picture behind the massacre............... ``
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P.Misra 2

THIS IS CALLED SELECTIVE REPORTING (may be selective memory)

You forgot to mention more scientific & irrefutable DNA analysis of dozen of Kashmiris bodies that was presented by Indian security forces as TERRORISTS were found to mach with civilian Kashmiris. NO MUJAHDEENS or MILITANTS,

What Pankaj said & what you believe Barry Something is at best conjectures to bet on without conclusive scientific determination as in the former case I cited & you OMITTED.

ASYMETRIC DEATH,

Many in pakistan try to see a symetry in the indo pak relations. It used to be, but no more. The significant aspect is the asymetric deaths. Pakistanis in their thousands have died in afghanistan and in kashmir. But nobody, not even the great asma jihangir talks about them, they are the uncountables of pakistan. The products of these madrasas can go and die any where, and the benefits are reaped by the elites of pakistan. In afghanistan it was the strategic depth, in kashmir it is a 1000 cuts.
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These uncountables of pakistan has created a peculiar military and economic situation, the actions of the uncountables as in the case of kargill invasion doeas not come into the military budgets, nor it creates a social tension in the form of the dead soldiers. The uncountables does not exist. In the social sphere, the uncountables have oblieterated the value of human life.

I was watching an australian TV program Pakistan Pictures, one was about edhi foundation and it talks about nearly 50 unclaimed dead bodies in karachi every day. It appears that the dead are simply left on the roads and no one wants to claim them, again the uncountables.

Articles like this try to assume a symmetry in relations, interests and visions of the future. In the case of india and pakistan it exists no more.

For pakistan there is a kashmir issue, there is an india issue, for the indians there is a global problem called pakistan. The new missile defence systems, air born warnings and aircraft midair refuelling and cruise missile developments, the acquisition of new aircrafts etc are a fundamental change in the indian view of containig a global problem.

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#22


Plz don`t insult our capacity to judge relative proportion of dissent in India & the power of the religious Fanaticism.

No, we never are disillusioned by Chomsky for not being able to stop war

or Arundhati & Misra to safeguard minorities in ndia.

Thses people never claim to be saints or more human than the deviant leadership they crticize.If you were so proud of liberal democracy of India you would NOT fearfully lock up through out 54 yrs periods of Golden independence for all indians ......from the Communists & Naxals to Muslims whenever there were indo pak war or tension.

Even to day illegally Tada & Poto is used to silence SIMI while RSS VHP Shiv Sena the murderous bunch never touched by so called Secular Demockery.When Simi never committed horrendous act of genocide these perpretrators are capable of & have done .

Saima#38
Sorry, I don`t understand your post.

Re dissent.
There are many TRUE bad things Pankaj Mishra can write about India, BJP and Hindutva WITHOUT lying. His tendency to doctor the truth puts him in the same category as a Hindutva ideologue doctoring the truth to suit HIS agenda.

Ordinary folks like me want to see the cause of freedom and secularism in India defended on the basis of TRUTH and not falsehoods or irrational civilisational hatred. Both the Pankaj Mishra and the Hindutva ideologue type of lies and civilisational hatred donot serve the cause of freedom and secularism in India.

Arundhati Roy is another person I have/had a lot of expectations from and it was a great dissapointment when she posed for a friendly photograph with Hamid Gul, the father of Jihad and the Taliban. I wonder why she doesnot denounce the jihad type of obscurantists, instead of posing for a photograph with the architect of it all, doesn`t she have the least respect for Afghan women and what they went through under the Taliban?

This leads me to the conclusion that unlike me, she doesnot object to all `rightists` and obscurantists in principle, she is OK with Muslim obscurantism, she objects to only the HINDU variety.

On another issue, she and others have disappointed again. She along with others have been very vocal anti-nuclear activists, and hence as someone puts faith in such activism, I have been extremely puzzled why neither she nor say J Ramana(who writes in the Daily Times from Princeton) have uttered a SINGLE word about N. Korea`s runaway nuclear and missile program.

In fact, after the news first broke, I was waiting to see what all of them including Mr Ramana would say about it- and found that he in particular chose to totally ignore the issue and write an article about Indian-Pakistan music instead.

This is a very strange dereliction of duty of Arundhati Roy and other fervent anti-nuclear activists inlcuding Mr Bidwai who published insulting articles about President Kalam. It leads me to the conclusion these fervent anti-nuclear activists donot want universal nuclear disarmament like I do, they are OK with other countries having nuclear weapons and developing the missiles to deliver them, they only want the unilateral disarmament of INDIA.

With all the will in the world to support dissent to any rightist position, you can see that alas, one cannot call these famous dissenters, honest dissenters.

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#25 saima
//...increasing Pakistan`s insecurity (which is India`s strategy) reduces the chances of a functioning democracy in Pakistan...Pakistan`s strategy of increasing India`s insecurity also does the same...//

True. Now - before you go further drawing moral equivalency between the victim and the aggressor - let`s look at the facts: for last 15 years this open strategy of ``death by thousand cuts`` is going on against India. India has seen it all. Scores dead in kashmir, population displaced, airlines hijacked , suicide attacks, parliament attacked ... the list goes on.

In response, India has tried it all: Track-2 diplomacy, Lahore bus trip, Agra talks - the list goes on. They have all ended in further attacks against India.

Saima - what do you expect Indians to do? Roll over and play dead?

Now that India has refused to take it lying down anymore and lately has decided to be aggressive about dealing with Pakistan - you start complaining that India is making Pakistanis ``insecure``. You start quoting Pankaj Mishra, Arundhati Roy, Kuldip Nayar ( as if there are no other intellectuals in India ) over and over again to prove your point.

Well - where were you guys for last 15 years? What exactly is the contribution from you guys in terms of lessening pains suffered by India and its people from Jihadi terrorism and violence sponsored by Pakistan? Which one of you guys rallied for decreasing the level of ``insecurity`` felt by Indians for last 15 years? Who gives you right to give moral lesson to the victim who has suffered so much?

Saima - how dare you draw moral equivalency between the victim and the attacker ? Shame on you!

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I think the bottom line here is to somehow establish an equivalence between Pakistani support of terrorism in J&K and elsewhere, and actions of the indian goverment. No indian will ever accept such an equivalence. Ending all support for murder of indian cilvians is a pre-condition for any steps forward. But that is not acceptable to Pakistan.

The result is a stalemate. Clever propagandists like Saima will now pretend that india is planning to invade Pakistan, use nuclear arms etc. In other having failed with using terror as a weapon, the idea now is to maximalize the issue.

The indian establishment has no interest in even one inch of Pakistani territory. The indian strategy is clear: contain their terrorism-loving neighbor to the west and wait for its eventual collapse. This has been put off for a few years by 9/11 ``rent`` paid to Pakistan but fundamentally is still on the cards. Given the shrinking ratio of the pakistani vs indian economy, this should be a reality withing 5-10 years. Indians should develop their economy, continue to ensure social justice and wait it out.

Saima #34
``I think both countries should open up their media to both points of view. P`s should defend their definition of freedom fighters and India should defend its army. And oh, bring in the Kashmiri villager, dont forget the people who left Kashmir. Bring them all on board and lets talk. Let`s indeed talk. And talk in front of the world, the entire region. And keep on talking.``

Saima, Before giving a global vision to us, why don`t you start by trying to project views of Pakistanis on PTV. Discuss clauses of UN Resolutions, talk about nothern areas, part of Kashmir given to China, Mushy`s democratic mandate of 97.7 percent and than talk about ``freedom fighters``. Certainly your home is under your control. You can start from that end. We will do our own clean-up.

Or is it that Pakistani won`t clean their house till they talk to India.

To Indians on free media:

1. Pakistan has now many independent channels like ARY, Indus Vision, Geo. These routinely broadcast their own views on Government functionings / disfunctionings. My younger brother works in the business section of Geo and normally thrashes MMA (abbreviation for Manhoos, Maloon Anarchists) on its economic policies in the NWFP.

2. Many Indian chowksters regularly post messages from our newspapers criticizing Government. This proves that our print media is so independent that even our adversary quotes it to thrash Pakistani chowksters.

#34 by SaimaShah on February 24, 2003 11:30pm PT

Your suggestion is interesting, but will it change the way governments think? I doubt. It is not easy to undo policies and positions adopted for over five decades. Especially when rhetoric like ``Kashmir banega Pakistan`` and Kashmir being the ``shah-rug`` of Pakistan takes center stage over the desire to bring about genuine peace and development for both the peoples and hatred for the neighbor is drilled down deep into peoples psyche for so long it becomes virtually impossible to undo it at one stroke.

Honestly Saima, unless Pakistan does something radical to improve its credibility vis-a-vis aid to violence in Kashmir, prospects for a peaceful resolution remain bleak. Pakistan started out to bleed India, and not out of any genuine concern for Kashmiris, and while succeeding to some extent, it has all but destroyed itself in the process. One only has to read about Gen. Zia`s Operation Topac to understand the level of hostility for India in Pakistan. All this talk about the common man being friendly to people from across the border is cr*p, Kuldip Nayar and Asma Jahangir notwithstanding, and is merely reflective of the curiosity that exists for anything new.

India on the other hand, has made remarkable progress. I must admit we have a pretty long way to go before we can call ourselves a world power, but India has well and truly moved forward, refusing to get bogged down in the Kashmir quagmire. Although the similarity between Indians and Pakistanis needs no reaffirmation, just look at the mess Pakistan has made of itself.

And the strident posture India has displayed in the recent times is something that she has been forced to assume in view of the continuous hostility and provocation she has faced from Pakistan since 1947.

I hate to say but given the present condition, the onus squarely lies on Pakistan. If Pakistan can agree to look forward by rejecting the use of non-state actors like Jihadis and mercenaries, things will improve for her, India, and South Asia as a whole. If no, she could well and truly struggle to remain a viable state.

re: nazarhayatkhan

oh the hopelessness. As for India riding out of it, I dont agree. I am afraid that hatred seeks its own image and the conflagration will be horrible for everybody. It isnt just a simplistic argument--that say if India used force, Pakistan would use nukes and that is why India should be more open visavis Kashmir. It is just that the Indian stance will keep eroding the chance for moderation and a fuller democracy in Pakistan. A fuller democracy would benefit India the most. In the present situation, the jehadis will keep growing in strength and have more and more cause to align with the government and build networks with extremist regimes. I know that India thinks it is strong and aligning itself with Israel, Iran, USA will make it stronger still to deal with any outbreak of war. If worst comes to worst i.e., the fundamentalists take over government, India probably thinks it will just attack Pakistan and take over, thereby solving the problem once and for all. This line of argument is very very scary. It shows that India is using extreme optimism visavis its own position. It is endangering its people on a false euphoria of power. This willingness to go to war, the absence of any consideration of its people and the costs of engaging in such a course shows the level of nationalism. Whereas the problem can be reduced by a more thought out and less `nationalistic` philosophy, without engaging in war.

re: sadna
nationalistic as far as I knew was a term that meant that the nation is of more importance than even the rights of people. it doesnt mean centralized or decentralized. nationalistic is what Germany was. nationalistic is what USA is sometimes criticised of being. You would of-course know more about internal politics, but yes many writers not just Pankaj Mishra have talked about rising Indian nationalism with the rise of the BJP. perhaps the ban on cow slaugher etc., make him think that BJP is nationalistic.

Apparently Deepa Mehta had agendas, so did Arundhati Roy. seems to be anything that tumbles a few ivory towers has an agenda. btw, the views expressed in my article would upset many many rightist Pakistanis. as they do many rightist Indians. Perhaps the left liberals in both countries have more of a common ground than the rightists on either side.

Saima Shah

Your voice is the voice of millions of ordinary folks on both sides. But I do not see a light at the end of tunnel.

The end loser seems to be Pakistan. India can ride out of it.

The countries do have differences but these differences need not be translated into life-death enmities.

Pakistan should put the Kashmir file in the closet and improve its economy.

This is what China advised Pakistan way back in 1980. But we are not in the habit of taking a good advice.

Kashmir is the only justification for Pakistan Army and the army has seeped deep into the body-politic of the state.

So, Saira, I do not see a light at the end of the tunnel.

re: godot

thanks godot--though the attempt is being ripped apart, meanings I never put in are being drawn out, being even open to a contrary position appears to be a sign of traitorhood. perhaps you are right, it is hopeless.