Tunnel Vision

#11 by pmishra2 on February 24, 2003 7:23pm PT
#8 rsridhar

If all you can think of is Mishra ,Roy & Chomsky all i can think of for your ideology is

Shyama Prasad Mukherjee ,Founder of hindu mahasabha later Jan sangh which Atal ji was member of which a decade ago became BJP political party with Multiple nicks of HYDRA RSS,VHP,Shiv Sena ,Bajrang Dal ,only garnishing vote for BJP there by connecting Indirect way to POWER in DELHI !!!!!!!

To that add Arun Shourie journalist who translated Koran the way BJP wants it to be giviong him Minstership by hand picking him from Journalist position .

Murli manohar Joshi the guy with Ego large enough to extend longer than length of Ganges.Thinks he is Einstein though mere physics teacher .

Rajiv Malhotra Subhash Kak are small players in U.S. Re inventing hinduism for P.Misra2 to read in Sulekha forum with 100% hindutva readership

re: Veeresh

The tragedy is of a huge scale. India and Pakistan stare at each other over a nuclear abyss. Whether the Governments of both have the writ of the people, does it matter? If the writ means death and destruction for a large number of people (the billions spent in defense by India, would be much better utilized in social reform; Bombay is the most miserable slum). I also don``t agree that India`s choice wrt to Kashmir or communal prejudice is `democratic` in the true sense of the word. Democracy must have information, debate and dissent. Democracy requires freedom of choices. Governments that provide a single choice: to be Indian you have to adhere to a certain world view visavis Kashmir or to be Pakistani you must never question Islam or Kashmir---these are not democracies. These are fake nation states.

I am glad to know that India is kinder to women, or that the economy is good and that the tunnel is slightly wider:) but the path of hate rhetoric and communal prejudices is a dangerous one. I believe that progress for both India in Pakistanis would be faster, more and better distributed if they became more open to internal criticism of hardline stances.

#8

Do check this P.Misras article for your own awareness

ONE SHOULD NOT MISS THIS VERY 7 PAGES LENGTHY ARTICLE BY PANKAJ MISRA A WELL KNOWN WRITER FROM INDIA KNOWN FOR LONG FOR HIS LEFT & LIBERAL LEANING .
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/02/magazine/02HINDU.html

The Other Face of Fanaticism
===================
By PANKAJ MISHRA

n the evening of Jan. 30, 1948, five months after the independence and partition of India, Mohandas Gandhi was walking to a prayer meeting on the grounds of his temporary home in New Delhi when he was shot three times in the chest and abdomen. Gandhi was then 78 and a forlorn figure. He had been unable to prevent the bloody creation of Pakistan as a separate homeland for Indian Muslims. The violent uprooting of millions of Hindus and Muslims across the hastily drawn borders of India and Pakistan had tainted the freedom from colonial rule that he had so arduously worked toward. The fasts he had undertaken in order to stop Hindus and Muslims from killing one another had weakened him, and when the bullets from an automatic pistol hit his frail body at point-blank range, he collapsed and died instantly. His assassin made no attempt to escape and, as he himself would later admit, even shouted for the police.

re: sadna
I am quite well aware of Mr. L.K. Advanis double speak. A confedration of states is only possible if to start with the hate rhetoric is turned down. Which it isn`t.

As for my comment on PM. I dont understand why it provoked such a response. He is criticized in India for the articles and research he has done--which test the rightist positions. Isn`t he?

#7 & #8


1- Its easy for Pakistan to stop talking about Kasmir and letting things carry on like they are. We dont have any problems with Jihadis. Only you do! So eventually you`ll have to talk about Kashmir on International Forums anyway.


2- The presence of american troops is a security deterrance for us, and a security threat to India. So we don`t mind them, and dont need to do anything about them. We`re happy, youre jealous! :)


3- The Italian courts have released the Pakistanis arrested, and has declared that they are not related to any terrorist network or activity. Please update your records!


4- A liberal progressive military regime is much much better than a conservative fundamentalist extremist religious regime!


5- It was claimed that ``The position with non-fundoo Muslims is probably now better in India.`` Does that mean the thousands that died in Gujrat were all fundos?

Saima, you have to read a little more about recent Indo-Pak history. There are a number of inaccuracies, I will just point out one as example.

``India is India, no regional identity is ever hinted at. ``

Advani is considered by Pakistanis be very hindoo fundamentalist and hold a very hardline stance wrt Pakistan, to the extent he is blamed by Musharraf and co of `sabotaging` the Agra summit. But even HE talks of a India-Pakistan confederation every few months for which he is immediately accused of Hindu chauvinism.


``Pankaj Mishra is criticized in India``

Well maybe people donot know this, but India is a free country, and when even Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee is criticised in India, even Lord Ram and Lord Krishna are criticised in India, is Pankaj Mishra a Holy Prophet that he should not be criticised in India?

I partially agree with rsridhar here. I think that India/Pak policies towards each other actually have basis in their people. It is not just the leadership. Musharraf may be a dictator but even a King/dictator of any kind cannot rule without support from his or her subjects and courtiers. We do have a problem among the people in Pakistan and India where we are absolutely ignorant of the OTHER`s point of view. As far as rsridhar and Veeresh`s defense of the India government and her actions is concerned I am willing to stipulate that some of their points do carry water, however if they are suggesting somehow that the Indian establishment is not willing to talk to the Pakistani government because of a principled stand of some kind where they will not talk to any dictators anywhere, they are wrong. This is all about realpolitik, my friends. It has nothing to do with any principle whatsoever. Indian government has had no trouble in engaging in talks anywhere else in the world including the dictators in Eastern Europe, Middle East and the Far East. I think Veeresh`s statement about Indian government`s tunnel vision containing more than Kashmir perhaps is true but that is not because of a high moral ground that he thinks the GOI enjoys, it is because of India`s size. The Government of India and her policymakers have a lot more on its plate. That`s all. Also, even with the military strength that rsridhar is aspiring for when it comes to the Indian forces, an attack on Pakistan is not going to solve much. If the think tanks in Indian government think that they can solve all the problems that they have by attacking Pakistan, they have another thing comming. A country like India has a lot to contend with in that region and Pakistan is only one of its perceived problems. Anyway, this article was not very well written or thought out. I guess I am making too many enemies on this forum with one posting so I will end this now. Let the beatings begin!

#8 rsridhar

Pankaj Mishra is a left-wing ex-JNU journalist. He has written a book titled ``Butter Chicken in Ludhiana``. The main point of the book which was written in the 90s is that the nouveau-rich often ``upfront`` hindus are the most objectionable people in the world. Also Kerala and Bengal are the only places in India that are civilized. If it reminds you of Arundhati Roy`s famous remark that indian call centers are similar to prostitution, you are on the right track as far as the mind set goes.

The other notable thing about Pankaj Mishra is that he once wrote an article blaming the Chattingsinghpora (J&K) massacre of a sikh community on the indian goverment. No evidence was provided but I guess it just felt right to stick it to these hindu fascists. Several months later Barry Bearak wrote a good investigative article in the NYT that established the entire jehadi picture behind the massacre.

AS you can imagine, this sort of fringe ``intellectual`` is beloved by all pakistanis. You know the type === Noam Chomsky, Arundhati Roy etc.

Meanwhile the murder of the indians in J&K continues unabated, because, well it is a ``just`` cause. No pakistani will every ask Chomskys or Pankaj Mishra`s opinion of that !! Talk about third-rate expediency...

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#7 by veeresh on February 24, 2003 4:17pm PT
Why did the scorpion bite the frog as it was being ferried across the river, thus drowning both? Because it had to. That is the nature of our curse, I would think?

If you write after few cans of indian toddy or beer ,you do have that vision of seeing brightness of sun in the `amavas ke raat `

Did you report on 1 million of THOUSANDS MILLIONS Indian who are priveleged to have flown trans atlantic or Adivasis Santhals Gujjar ,Kurmi Chamar Dussadh dalit Harijan etc are not Indians in your book.

An excellent article, Saima. Thank you for your even-handedness and expounding the reality.

What you call a tunnel vision, I call myopia. With that kind of leadership, the South Asians are doomed. What a pity. So much talent so wasted. I agree with Urstruly. The leadership is thrown up by its people. I have also lost faith. The region is doomed. Ignorance and myopia rule in both countries. How sad, how sad...

PS: Pankaj Mishra is a regular contributor to The New York Review of Books

re: the Pied Piper of Pakistan
As Mushy plays the tune, all Pakistanis (well, almost all) are following him like rats as he takes them towards an abyss. No one is ready to question him. Does he have any vision for his country? Read SA Tribune`s editor Sehbai`s column on how Pak lost Iran and how India became Iran`s strategic partner. Yes, this is now confirmed. There was a strategic pact signed between India and Iran not long ago. URL:
http://www.satribune.com/index.htm
Excerpts:

1. ``The latest word on this sensitive subject has come from world renowned Jane’s Defence Weekly, the authentic voice on strategic and defence matters. And all JDW could say in its latest issue was that Pakistan “was expected to respond to the signing of India`s recent accord with Iran, which would allow India the use of Iranian military bases in the event of any outbreak of tensions with Pakistan.” Can any one believe that this agreement was signed more than one month ago and no one has yet been able to respond in Islamabad.``

2. ``The pact was signed a week before the visit of Iranian President Muhammad Khatami to India to join the celebrations for India`s national day on Jan 26. Signed in Tehran by the Indian Naval Chief and the Iranian Minister of Defence, the pact marks a complete turnaround by Iran, which used to be a close ally of Pakistan, JDW said.``

3. ``Pakistani Army’s utopian vision of conquering Kashmir thereby defeating India and brandishing its nuclear sword every time things heat up as result of its belligerency are now producing these catastrophic results. It has now been established beyond any doubt that whenever any political leadership tried to work for a face saving, middle of the road compromise with India, the Pakistan Army, led by commandos like General Musharraf, sabotaged those efforts. The Rajiv Gandhi visit during Benazir Bhutto’s first tenure and Vajpayee’s Lahore Bus Journey are two glaring examples.``


4. ``Now the Army itself is in control of the political and strategic landscape and thus not only the Indians have refused to talk, they have convinced Pakistan’s closest friends and allies that their stand is correct and Pakistan Army cannot be trusted. Not just on its assurances about its role in Kashmir but not even for a project of huge economic interest to its neighbor and friend Iran. In short Pakistan and its Army has been dumped by Iran in favor of India.``

Finally, the article ends with this comments:
``What can Pakistan do in such a scenario? The question has to be answered by the military leadership which has been ruling the country and driving it to the abyss. Loss of Iran is not something General Musharraf can brush under the carpet. It would be unbelievable for millions of Pakistanis to ever imagine Indians attacking Pakistan from Iranian soil.

Only a blundering and blind military dictatorship could have brought the country to such a pass.``

Let us be clear who has a tunnel vision: is it Mushy or ABV? I think the answer is obvious.
Sridhar

re: regarding this article
This is one of the stupidest articles i have read in a long time.
What this author calls as tunnel vision is, at least on part of India, a well thought out strategy which has the backing of majority of political parties and the entire populaton of India. Indians are fed up of SH!TTY dictators like Musharraf. After Kargil and a spate of other terrorist attacks including the one on Indian Parliament, India is not willing to talk to a terrorist nation. It is as simple as that. There is no tunnel vision here. If India had the muscle power like US, it would have attacked Pakistan long ago and solved this problem once and for all.
It is Pakistan which has a tunnel vision. The word at the end of this tunnel reads: KASHMIR. There is no other thing that this benighted nation is worried about. It does not bother Mushy that his country is a hotbed of terrorism (last time, Italians had to arrest some Pakis; EEC mentioned Pakistan in a joint statement in reference to North Korea). It does not bother people in Pakistan that the country is neck deep in debt . It certainly does not seem to bother anyone that USA is well entrenched in its soil and calling all the shots. All that Pakis want is to talk about Kashmir. Pity, even that India is not conceding. And does anyone other than Pakistan care about Kashmir. In the last OIC conference, Pak had tough time getting a resolution on Kashmir passed. Iran was one of the countries which objected!
So, let us be clear about who is having a tunnel vision here. I see no reason why India should ever talk to Pakistan as long as this dictator is ruling the country. Let Paksitanis dispose off this scum, elect a democratic leader and then may be India will be willing to talk.
Indians in India and abroad are not happy with Pakistan`s suuport of Jehadi elements. You may choose to hear some leftists like Arundhati Roy or that senile idiot Kuldip Nayyar but these people do not have any following in India. Which is why they take this anti-establishment stand. Why else would Pakistan invite them and hear them speak? Arundhati Roy writes well but there the matter stops. Kuldip Nayyar is irrelevant. Who the hell is Pankaj Mishra anyway?
Sridhar

Why did the scorpion bite the frog as it was being ferried across the river, thus drowning both? Because it had to. That is the nature of our curse, I would think?

There are a few major major differences between ground realities in India & Pakistan, to my experience . . . before any joint future vision can be outlined.

a) The position of half the people, women, is probably better in India.
b) The position with religious minorities, non-Muslim, is positively better in India.
c) The position with non-fundoo Muslims is probably now better in India.
d) All said and done, we seem to keep clear of military rule in India.
e) Middle-class Indians seem to be ``coming back`` to India and not doing too badly, often.
f) India`s tunnel vision extends to way beyond just Kashmir. (!!)
g) Infrastructure development seems to be moving ahead faster in India now. (Roads, private healthcare, organised agriculture, ports, inland non-coastal economies.)
h) External economies viz; exports seem to be moving way faster in India lately.

As against this, Pakistan does seem to have a resoluteness of leadership but then is that all that makes or breaks?

Worst of all, Pakistan seems to have AMerican house-guests like Vietnam used to have . . .

Oh dear.

Re: FJ

thanks for the spell check. Glad you are reading my work so closely. Gives me hope. And yes the author is me.

UrsTruly (#1)


Illiterate people are often people bad, immoral, and without conscience. Their ability to tell good from bad is not better than animals, and that is what they biologically are. The koran terms this as ``Nafs-e-Ammara`` (Joseph:54) or ``The Self Advocate to Vice``. The illiterate masses of the corrupt societies of Indian and Pakistan are perfect examples of this. They, like animals, follow their emotions in eating, drinking, sleeping, or expressing anger. They have no conscience and are typically attracted towards evil for emotional pleasure.


However, a good political leader should guide the masses towards what is good for them, rather than following them.

``Pankak Mishra, Asma Jehangir, Kuldip Nayer``

Pankaj Jahangir Nayar

``The Us and Them philosophy that permeades politcal speech``

permeates political

``India on the other extracts all the capital it can after 9/11 in showing Pakistan as a terrorist supporter``

Hand

One too many mistakes.

``See Pankaj Mishra, Kuldip Nayyer’s articles``

Have you cut paste from elsewhere and joined together to make this eclectic article?