Tunnel Vision

Jay wrote at # 140:

``Ahmedzai, this chap is your friend, he has not heard of the famous words, if you are not with us, you are against us. He also has not heard of the condom anology of pakistan. He has no idea of pak history, ayub days of u2 flights and hand outs from the US, then with china where you got nothing of course the bomb, then with saudi to name faisalabad, again with the US now. Ahmadzai, tell this fellow pakistani about options for a very old and tired well you know who.``

I really admire these points poignantly driven home. Perhaps Afridi Saheb will not be interested in listening to me today as he may be more interested in the performance of Shahid Afridi. But a detailed post from me on this aspect for all the Pakistanis will follow. Rest assured on this one :)

In the meantime however, a suggestion is in order here for Jay too:

Because of your tendency to look at history of Pakistan (i.e. passive behavior) and your se*tual innuendoes every now and then, kindly consider replacing 1st letter of your name `J` by letter `G`.

;)

SaimaShah #145

The question you should ask yourself is why should India agree to give Pakistan ANY foothold in Indian J&K, even in an enquiry committee ?

re: ahmedzai

let`s monitor the LOC. All deaths in Kashmir will have a joint inquiry by a committee formed by apolitical people. NPOs, organizations like amnesty international, human rights watch, UN, with both Pakistani and Indian citizens--a sort of joint jury which is interested but impartial. Pakistanis will nominate Indian people who appy for that posts and Indians can choose Pakistanis. That way biases from both sides will be eliminated.

The jury will be provided 24 hour protection. And their identities will be released later after the initial period of organization.

The inquiry will be publicly conducted i.e., a website will be used to inform people about the various stages in the inquiry. There will be a step by step procedure followed in the inquiry. Documentation of witnesses, identity papers etc. Dead bodies will be post-mortemed and ensured that relatives identify them. The faces of the dead and the militants will be made public. Their particulars including names should appear in the papers and on that website.

This inquiry committee should stay in force for a period of 3-6 years. This inquiry should be made the basis for future governance in that area. Kashmir in my opinion iis a truly porous border--the problem can be resolved if both countries join hands. Kashmir in essence would belong to neither India nor Pakistan, instead it might become a jointly managed area that buys and trades with both countries and both protect against violence. Neither country should be allowed to buy property here. However displaced Kashmiris may be encouraged to move back and build a life again. Tourism must be promoted again. Both Governments can invest in kashmir visavis hotels, other infrastructure. let`s compete indeed--fair and square!

ps. I wonder if pakistanis can buy property or invest in india?...hmm

pps: can u imagine the politicians even daring to resolve the problem? they will probably die rather than do something visionary like this. what fools we and what utter @#$%$## they are. Something so obvious and so progressive is buried underground by this me muslim you hindu bs.

Oº°‘¨ Turkey`s strategy & Pakistan ¨‘°ºO

It is shameful that some political elements like Jamaat e Islaami in Pakistan opposed America`s attack on Afghanistan claiming it to be a matter of principals, and exploited that stance to the maximum in the general elections, but also say that it would`ve been acceptable if Pakistan had made a deal of monetary help. This is a direct expression of willingness to sell principals for money.

Pakistan`s stance in the war against Taleban certainly was a matter of principles. It is now time for the ISI and Pakistani Government to realize that their policy on Afghanistan was amoral and illegal, and has completely failed. Pakistan has not only managed to end up being hijacked by numerous armed terrorists-for-sale that are now working for Arab and Indian agencies and organizations against Pakistan, but also secluded itself in the International Community and has completely lost its dignity and integrity.

It was time for Pakistan to give up terrorism and start following the principles of humanity (and religion). Pakistan should do that without any greed for any material reward. The biggest reward for Pakistan is the change in its stance!!!

Do not forget however:

- Pakistan`s ForEx reserves increased from a worth of 2 weeks of imports, to 10 billion, that is worth one year of imports because of Pakistan`s stance based on principles.

- The change in the foriegn policy will eventually, due to foriegn pressure, bring a change in the relationship of the government with the private armies. This will make it easier for the Interior Ministry to control secterian voilence.

- Once the private armies are disbanded, a better situation of law and order will open gates for foriegn investments, those of the overseas Pakisanis, to start with.

- The foriegn pressure to stick to anti-war and anti-terrorism policy will eventually result in the control and ultimate removal of the pro-war philosophy from the government controlled compulsory high school syllabus, and that will go a long way in the moderation of the society.

- The presence of FBI in Pakistan for a long period will make sure that the government is under pressure to crack down against the private armies, and the presence of American troops in Pakistan will be a deterrence against military attack, less importanty by India, and more Importantly by private Islamic armies.

I am a Pakistani from the urban middle class. My concerns are safety, freedom, and prosperity. I`d rather literally become an American colony, than be ruled by a democratic fundamentalist government, who can not protect me and my religious beliefs, and stops me from celebrating Basant. I think just anybody has stronger humanitarian values than the politicians who are feeding on my blood, looting my country to the maximum, and making me pay the money as bills.

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India is a status quo power. Regardless of its current public stance, India will gladly agree to turning the LOC into a permanent international border. It is Pakistan that feels that it must acquire the entire Jammu & Kashmir to ``finish the unfinished business of partition.``

Pakistan`s ruling elite has a vested interest to paint India as the eternal enemy of Pakistan. It will continue to do so even if India were to aquiesce to the permanent exile of all residents of Jammu & Kashmir whose ethnicity, ideology or faith does not meet the approval of Pakistan`s ruling elite and even if India were to hand over the entire state of Jammu & Kashmir on a platter to Pakistan.

When Pakistan`s military swears by:
(1) the ``martial race theory``
(2) asserts that one Pakistani soldier can take care of ten ``Hindu`` soldiers or,
(3) promises compatriots that they will unfurl Pakistan`s flag at the Red Fort,
it does so, not because it believes in the bluster, but because that makes it easier for the military to usurp a disproportionate share of the country`s wealth for the Kakul kleptocrats.

In real life, Pakistan`s military has always been far tougher on its own citizens, most of them unarmed, than on armed soldiers of ``enemy`` countries. Thus, General Tikka Khan is far better known to the world as the Butcher of Bengal and as the Butcher of Balochistan than as the Knight in shining armor who will ride his big white horse to the Red Fort to unfurl Pakistan`s flag.

When Pakistan`s military breathes fire, it is to ``prove`` to Pakistani citizens that the military is indispensable to the nation`s welfare. But this is nothing but a fraud because the primary aim is to make sure that Pakistan`s army can continue steal a disproportinate share of the country`s wealth for itself.

I have no reason to believe that Pakistan`s ruling elite cares any more for justice in Jammu & Kashmir than it cares for justice for the residents in Pakistan itself or for justice to the ``Biharis`` left to rot in refugee camps for 3 decades.

Those that had preached, ``Haske liya Pakistan, ladke lenge Hindustan,`` on the morrow of independence, those that continue to preach, ``One Pakistani soldier is more than ten ``Hindu`` soldiers,`` will not change their tune or stance even if Jammu & Kashmir is handed over to them on a platter. They have a strong need to have India as an enemy country to justify the usurption of a disproportionate share of the nation`s wealth for themselves.

Pakistan`s military lobby was strong enough to force the break-away of the majority of Pakistanis in 1971 in order to preserve its own interest in the rest of the country. Today, it is just as determined to perpetuate conflict with India and for the very same reason. Jammu & Kashmir is merely the most convenient excuse at the moment. But, in its absence, it won`t take long for Pakistan`s military to find yet another excuse.

But there is a limit to what the people will tolerate. And when the Kakul kleptocrats exhausted the patience of the long suffering ordinary citizens of Pakistan, the Tsunami of their wrath did not spare even the Ayub Khans and the Yahya Khans. It will not spare Pervez Musharraf either.

Religion is a delima of this region (pak/ind). Religion and ideology can b ecredited for preserving status quo here. Pakistanis have more sacred cows than their indian/hindu counterparts do - trust me, this doesnt make us any superior.

You cannot disturb status quo. or may be you can, if you are willing to pay theprice. As it turns out, most of us are not ready. So the best we can do is try to get absorbed into this status quo. If we can get our share of the loot, we have no problem with it. If we cannot get our share, we turn red.

Freedom of thought and expression is what we should have fought for in this part of the world. Instead, we fought for LAND (a four letter word). We are still fighting for it. We have competed far too long. Today, people in india and pakistan are more disoriented than at any time in the history.

If we continue to do what we have always done, we will have more of what we already have. If we like what we have in pakistan, lets continue on this path. Think about it.

Turkey`s strategy & Pakistan



Turkey`s resistance to the deployment of US forces against Iraq and the condition of a pre-war economic package being set by its government show the dynamic strategy of its foreign policy.

Despite the increasing pressure from America, Turkey has remained consistent in its demands. It is likely to eventually concede to the deployments of American troops, but the final decision will compensate Turkey for war-related losses.

The Gulf war of 1991, which cost Turkey $40 billion, and the American failure to assist it to meet its losses have made the Turkish government cautious.

Why was the same strategy not adopted by Pakistan soon after the 9/11 incidents when it was asked to allow its bases to be used against Afghanistan? Pakistan could have made a demand for the write-off of its huge burden of foreign debts which have been a stagnant and unresolved problem.

If Pakistan had demanded of the US economic aid for extending full support to the latter in its war against the Taliban government, it, too, would have made a successful deal.

MOHAMMAD TARIQ AFRIDI

Karachi

////Ahmedzai, this chap is your friend, he has not heard of the famous words, if you are not with us, you are against us. He also has not heard of the condom anology of pakistan. He has no idea of pak history, ayub days of u2 flights and hand outs from the US, then with china where you got nothing of course the bomb, then with saudi to name faisalabad, again with the US now. Ahmadzai, tell this fellow pakistani about options for a very old and tired well you know who.

#136 by Studebaker on February 27, 2003 9:28pm PT

[Rajasthan Gujrat ,East Punjab has had borders with Pakistan for 54yrs]

The Rajasthan border is blessed by virtue of having a natural obstacle in the Thar desert, and moreover it is populated overwhelmingly by Hindus. You Pakis have nothing there to exploit. Gujarat also has the Rann of Kutch that has protected it greatly.

[The only Jehadi in Gujrat is artificially created on paper with NO evidence .There has been none in Punjab & Rajasthan]

What then were the ones that burnt the train compartment at Godhra? Sufis? And do you forget the fact that you supported the Khalistan movement in Punjab?

Veeresh at # 134:

RED ALERT: This is a long post.

PTV World is equivalent of Indian Doordarshan. I don`t know why should we be watching it in the first place to have an independent assessment of any boiling situation? Even Pakistanis don`t watch PTV World. ARY Digital, Indus Vision, Geo and others are providing trustworthy alternatives.

A better way to deal with extreme positions coming out of Indian and Pakistani media and Government would be to make the use of averages and find that truth is conveniently located some where in between (or we can take the moving averages by absorbing news from all sources and applying a FOS).

For example, If Indian media/Government claims that Kashmir insurgency is because of 100% Pakistani intervention and Pakistan says that there is no cross-border infilteration then perhaps the truth is half-way in between i.e. most of the insurgency is due to local Kashmiris (70% is a good figure to accept given by Advanee himself some two years ago at the time of a temporary ceasefire between HM and Indian military), but 30 % may be crossing into India from Pakistan.

Now at least there is some thing to work on. A biased Pakistani mindset will tell us that ok 30% infilteration is taking place, which the Government is not able to control, but is not supporting as well. So how to go about it? On the other hand an Indian mind will give him a 70% figure to work on internally. For the 30% the two sides can work together e.g. by allowing 3rd party to monitor LOC.

Other problems can be dealt with in the similar manner.

That is why I believe that this article is very well written and gives an excellent suggestion for getting out of tunnel vision. I believe that lot of creativity will be required to achieve this objective.

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veeresh #126
Thanks for the info. Lets hope for the time to come soon when the Army is absolutely NOT used for any internal issue. Until such a time, IMO we can`t really claim anything about anything.

AhmedZai # 129 . . . you got a point there. Main source for Indians perceptions about info on Pakistan:-

a) language services of BBC, CNN, etc., which tend to play up the extra-ordinary aspects of the Hindu-Muslim divide for example. (Titillation or perversity or systematic?) On the other hand, I have never heard of a PTV or DD or Star/Zee/AajTak programme investigating on behalf of Indo-Pak Catholics about Protestants shafting them in Ireland. Or, how about India & Pakistan jointly sponsoring tough questions at UN about Diego Garcia, Gan, Isle de Kerguelen . . .? So, own goal.

b) many Indians do tend to confuse the dirtier environs of mosques = old city areas with that of what they would perceive Pakistan to be. Unfortunately there aren`t too many ``modern`` mosques in India of the sort seen in UAE/Saudia etc. I have always wondered why, especially since temples, gurudwaras and churches seem to be keeping up with the times.

c) PTV while channel surfing is so dull. That is not our fault. Anycase PTV keeps harping on and on and on about Kashmir. So, to most Indians, Pakistan is like an appendage to Kashmir. Seriously, reasonably intelligent people have asked me how I knew Pakistan shippies, where did they have a coast?

d) Pakistani movies and plays on video tend to be of a particular ``chaaap`` if you get what I mean? Again, not our fault. Most of them have loud people making faces. Admitted this custs both ways.

e) The political news emanating from Pakistan is often militarised. That really REALLY impacts perception.

f) Wasim Akram teaches Ashish Nehra how to bowl faster/better. Kirti Azad ex-cricketer is hardcore BJP type but has a great friendship with Javed Miandad and does liaison for Pakistan Cricket team in India. This sort of thing never comes out. TV will only replay shots of cricketers threatening each other on the field, right?

g) The BSF/Rangers sunset ceremonies at Wagah/Attari have now been televised so frequently that people believe in the theatrics there. Who goes to whose club at the border in the evenings is never discussed.

h) Two main issues on which Indians will draw positions about Pakistan are:-

# status of women . . . all we see is Mokhtarma this and that walking up in full head-dress and more to receive awards from grim generals in ill fitting suits or female Oxbridge types yapping in clipped accents. Where are the lusty rural class women, other than sufi singers?
# freedom of speech . . . where is that? Again, PTV to blame?

I mean, if we in India think of Pakistan in a particular way, then whose job is it to try to amend perceptions? Not many people read Indian Express.

I think tv has a great role to play. So do expats. More on that eventually . . .

Hello--

does anybody know someone who was asked to leave USA due to overstay etc during the INS registration ? If u think they might want to give an interview to a US University researcher, can u please post a message to saima@chowk.com? thanks very much.

Dear Saima Shah,

Almost everybody in the middle class that dominates the urban society of the subcontinent, is directly responsible for what is known to be the public opinion, and is either a silent nonconformist or a loud conformist. You are an exception. An exception in a society whose politics is mischief, whose philosophy is forgery, and whose intellectuals have no voice. You are a reformer. A weak nation weakens its strong men. I pray for your strength.

Educate, and remember my words, education does not sow the seeds, it only helps the seeds find a way to grow. You give a voice to the silent. I am silent too, but behind you!