Tunnel Vision

Sadna:

Some separatist movements in India that I could find out since BBC`s coverage of Nagaland can be read at:

http://adaniel.tripod.com/separate.htm

Those that have made the news recently are from:

1. Nagaland, 2. Tripura, 3. Kashmir, 4. Indian Punjab, 5. Assam

But the purpose of my mentioning the Naga movement was not to score browny points, but was an answer to Sadna`s question to Samina.

Jay at #127:

My answer to your long post is simple one.

You are questioning the veracity of western media on my information, yet all the Pakistan related information you have provided has come either from the western or the Indian media.

Why Pakistani newspapers are full of killing information is because of the three aspects:

1. Sensationalization,

2. Sensationalization and

3. Sensationalization

And as to your last para: ``This is the fundamental asymetry of the pak and indian world view. A society that can accept tye killigs by average pakistani, make it legal and call the killers shaheeds and honor killers, has no right to talk about peace with its neighbours. ``

This applies equally to India. You only have to read articles by your own writers on the extremist and fundamentalist direction India has taken. You know who I am referring to.

Veeresh at # 113 and Sadna at # 124 & 125:

Thank you for the details on Nagaland.

I admit that BBC and CNN were my only sources of information and I admit that my opinion was certainly biased due to their one sided stories.

However, my submission is that Indians should also note that their opinion on Pakistan is also biased in the following areas:

1. Pakistani (population 144 million) support for Talibans.

2. Talibans oppression of women and that Northern Alliance, or for that matter, the US forces, have freed the women from that oppression.

3. Shia-Sunni strife in Pakistan, which is mob oriented and that every body is against each other.

4. All Pakistanis are going to Seminaries and then heading straight to Indian held Kashmir.

5. All Pakistani Muslims are extremist Jihadis.

and so on and so forth.

light at the end of tunnel

ISLAMABAD – Pakistan has hoped that the United States would substantially increase its aid package during the next financial year and said that Islamabad’s economy is in a position to face fall-out of the situation obtaining in the Middle East.
“Pakistan appreciates US decision to write off US $ one billion bilateral debt,” said Shaukat Aziz, Prime Minister’s Advisor on Finance, in a meeting with Frederick W. Schieck, Deputy Administrator USAID, currently visiting Pakistan here on Wednesday.
Citing the challenges, Shaukat Aziz said that Pakistan has achieved economic sovereignty and is in a position to face economic fall-out of the situation obtaining in the Middle East.
He also appreciated US $ 310 million aid package during the current financial year and hoped that the Government of United States would substantially increase this amount for the next financial year.
Pakistan also proposed technical assistance to train and orient customs officers to effectively control narcotics trafficking, smuggling of arms and goods.

/// This is a spectacular achievement for a country created for islam, surviving on hand outs from a country which rest of the muslims consider as anti islam. At last the pakistanis seem to be accepting that book, a mere tearing of a page from it can invite killings or prosecution under blasphemy laws cannot be eaten. A nation that has denied its history has no roots falls victim to the slightest temptaion of money and will vote for attack on a fellow muslim country.

Sadna # 125 and others . . . well, since I do know a bit about this subject . . . Phizo`s son chose to go to NDA & then became a pilot with the IAF, retiring from Transports, Phizo`s daughters and nieces married Indian Armed Forces officers and others, and distances apart, I think the Naga issue is now more ``internal Naga`` than with the State.

Will this happen with Jammu & Kashmir? I think so, economically the State seems to be recovering if property prices and automobile sales are indications. J&K Bank is amongst the most efficient banks in India, all over India, on par with the foreign banks. The integration of the displaced Kashmiri over most of India is now an accepted fact of life, especially in the hill stations and other tourist spots, for the simple reason that the Kashmiris do seem to know how to look after tourists. The Railway Line should be up and running into Srinagar by 2004/5 . . .

Meanwhile . . .

Ahmedzai 91,

`` The media claimed that 60 to 70,000 Pakistanis were fighting along side Talibans. If the media says that most were slaughtered then this huge numbers could not have gone unnoticed by Human Right organizations.``

Wish you the best for your trust in the western media. How many iraqis were killed in the kauwait war. None, it was just a video game. The shattered tanks and military vehicles did not contain any humans. This is in fact points to the fundamental and irrecocilabe difference between india and pakistan. Thousands of pakistanis can be killed, and no one cares. The kargill invasion, the 2000 killed in india was enough to change the indian view towards pakistan, hopefully permanently. In pakistan no one was killed, no one got a burial with military honours, they died in disgrace.

What pakistan as a society has achieved in the last 50 years is the trivialisation human life, the crime has shot up, the sectarian violence, the honour killings, the kidnappings and all of pakistanis can accept it as part of the jihad.

In pakistan there is no mob violence, it is carefully coordinated by the organisations supported by the average sayed pakistani. The collection boxes in every shops, the collections in the mosques, the millions at the annual lasker meetings. Look at the news reports, the killing reports dominate it, the progress report for the average pakistani about the fruitful spending of his contributions, the honouring of the people who responded to the jihadic calls on posters in every street corner.

This is the fundamental asymetry of the pak and indian world view. A society that can accept tye killigs by average pakistani, make it legal and call the killers shaheeds and honor killers, has no right to talk about peace with its neighbours.

Saima #101, ahmedzai #110
You might like to read this:

http://iecolumnists.expressindia.com/full_column.php?content_id=16405
India’s most important NRIs

``...There were times, notably during the 1962 war, when our army was abandoning much of Assam, when the Naga underground had an even greater number of men under arms than those of our army. If they so wished, they could have taken over the state then and declared sovereignty. That they did not do so, when Indian authority was represented by no more than a few battalions of the Madhya Pradesh Special Armed Police, is an intriguing fact.

This is precisely the question I once asked Scato Swu, a former acting president of the underground, when A.Z. Phizo, the founder of the rebellion, was in exile in London. During the state elections of 1982, I once hitched a ride with the venerable Swu, then a nominated member of Parliament. I asked him why did his people not take over in 1962 and declare independence.

“It’s funny, young friend, that you ask this questions. Indians usually do not even remember 1962. You know, your army had gone away and I had 10,000 men carrying automatic weapons. If only I had blown the whistle, Nagaland would have been ours,” he said.

“Precisely,” I said, “Why didn’t you do so? That opportunity will never come again. You’ve lost the fight for sovereignty.”

“Because that was the moment of truth. We had a series of meetings to think of our future as an independent republic. It was a great feeling. Then somebody said, see, the Indians will go, but the Chinese will be hereabouts.”

“But why would that be a problem?” I asked, “The Chinese were your allies and masters.”

“Yes,” he said. “But we had been to China, seen their system. We know what they had done to religion. Why were they going to be more tolerant of our Christianity? Here the Indian army had so many Christian officers who even came to our churches. All of us had been trained in Lhasa. We also knew what the Chinese had done to the Tibetans and their culture. Why were they going to be more kind to the Naga way of life?”

“You mean just when you could have got sovereignty you lost your nerve?” I taunted the wise old man.

“No. We Nagas are honourable, realistic and fair. We were fighting against you to preserve our tribal culture and identity, our way of life and Christianity. We had no blood feud with you. It just seemed that these might be better preserved in your shadow even without sovereignty than as an independent, but Chinese satellite state.” ..``



What Shekhar Gupta writes about the Naga movement in this column is applicable to the basic issue Saima raises, namely

``the idea of nation state for this plural culture that we share is completely FLAWED. There was some merit to the way things were run 200 years ago. The change to the nation state is too fast and doesnt work. ``


The answer is, we HAVE to make this pluralism work and it is incidental whether this pluralism exists within Indian nation- state boundaries, within Pakistani nation-state boundaries or across Indo-Pak boundaries.

We have to make this pluralism work, for the simple reason that there is no alternative.

Just as the separation of Pakistan as a solution to `unworkable` pluralism, (though a very worthwhile event, I hasten to add), helped the US gain a foothold in our region, separatism or new boundaries doesnot eliminate the need to pull together and to make our unique yet interlinked pluralism work, if we are to celebrate, preserve and protect it, particularly from being exploited and walked over, by the more powerful powers, like US, China, Saudi Arabia.

ahmadzai #110

I don`t know about that death toll(I couldn`t manage to find a figure anywhere). There are certainly Pakistan connections, which I search references too if you wish.


One thing to note is that in 1999 many of the brave Indian soldiers who died in Kargil were from the Naga Regiment. Also, the most unyielding Naga rebel faction finally held talks with the Indian govt. last month.


btw, if the following is true no wonder the BBC/British aren`t happy (I can`t say how reliable/unreliable this information is, because as far as I know La Rouche is an idiot)

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/1995/2241_ne_india_groups.html


``The British connection to the NSCN existed from the early days of Naga National Council. Phizo, the mentor of both factions of the NSCN, had led the charge against the Indian government, spearheading well-concerted guerrilla warfare. Phizo left Nagaland hiding in a coffin. He then turned up in Britain holding a Peruvian passport.

It is strongly suspected that the British Baptist Church, which is very powerful in Nagaland, is the contact between British intelligence and the NSCN terrorists operating on the ground.

British direct involvement continues. On Jan. 30, 1992, soldiers of the Assam Rifles arrested two British nationals along the Nagaland-Burma border. David Ward and Stephen Hill posed as members of British Broadcasting Corp. TV, and were travelling in jeeps with Naga rebels carrying arms. Subsequent interrogation revealed that both were operatives of Naga Vigil, a U.K.-based group. Both Ward and Hill claimed that they started the organization while in jail, influenced by Phizo`s niece. Both have served six-year prison terms for various crimes in Britain. Naga Vigil petitioned their release in the Guwahti High Court. Phizo`s niece, Rano Soriza, took up the issue with then-Nagaland Chief Minister Vamuzo..``


``..Also, NSCN reportedly received $1.7 million from the Pakistani Inter-Service Intelligence (ISI) to buy arms from Thailand and Singapore recently. No further detail on this transaction is available...``

``..Known controllers/mentors/theoreticians: The Naga separatist movement has always been controlled by British intelligence, through such organizations as Naga Vigil. Other connections are likely..``

---

Which are the rest of the seven? (I have read in Pakistani newspapers(and from other Pakistanis posts on chowk) that the number is thirteen, but noone has done us the favor of listing them).

#74 by ana_dobarah on February 25, 2003 6:18pm PT

[harimau...
there are those rare times when I actually like and agree with what you say....]

Rare times when you agree with moi? Here I am spouting facts, unassailable logic and irrefutable conclusions. Just because they challenge the average Pakistanis` worldview, how can you disagree with the truth?

[....having said that, it`s Farzana, F-A-R-Z-A-N-A. Not Farts Anna. come on guy...if you`re going to muck up names here, then why don`t you muck up the rest of our names while you`re at it?]

I do. Right now, the poster, rather the poseur, named Shankar is commonly called the Headshrinker or Ashit Urshit Dickshit (all three of them legitimate Hindu names) by me. The complete fraud known as Soysauce who is now mercifully absent from Chowk is usually called Sangilikkaruppan or Maasanamuthu, again common names from his part of India. Romair is affectionately known on the Chowk as Field Marshal. Ali_1 gets his name translated from Tamil into Eunuch #1. Tipu, Ashok, Studebaker, Sadhna, Androscoggin, Lajwanti, etc., etc., etc., is universally called 12-Head (even though he now has probably 24) or Hydra. In his incarnation as Studebaker, I call him Nova or Car-up-on-Blocks. He calls me Harami OU.

The self-deprecating and sweet semipreciousme is called wholly-precious-you by me. So it is not always a derogatory twist on their handles.

FartsAna deserves it for stinking up Chowk.

Ref Eunuch#1 #91

[Faced with a superior adversary and burning with impotent rage, Atal ``eunuch baba`` Vajpayee is an accurate representation of India, or rather the 800 million majority eunuch community of India.]

At least, Hindus don`t name their kids Ali (eunuch in Tamil).

[A recent question on a TV quiz show on PTV: Name the country where both the President and PM can`t get a boner?]

Try answering this question: Name the country where both the President and the Prime Minister get their a$$ reamed regularly by the US.

Ref Eunuch#1 #95

[Maybe they should legalize gay marriage right now in anticipation.]

Am I to conclude that after years of trying the gay bars in San Francisco, you still can`t get a date? Do you plan to move to India if they legalize gay marriages in India?

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Ref ahmadzai #110

[Yesterday, BBC showed piece on Nagaland. I was astonished to hear that it is one of the 7 Indian states in the north east India where separatist movements are going on. ......

I wonder how Pakistan has escaped accusation of cross-border infilteration in those states ;) ]

It is your friends the Chinese who used to supply arms to the Nagas. They have stopped now but the Nagas trade guns and drugs with the Kachins and other Burmese tribes.

Just FYI.

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Saima is not exaggerating about terrorists in over 5-6 states Bihar,Jharkhand ,Nagaland,Arunachal pradesh,Veerapan rules more than Karnataka & Tamil ....


The NYT today picked up the Reuters report and reproduced it in the World Briefing Section, under Asia - India.

But the NYT report is much shorter than the Reuters report. Both are reproduced below.

NYT`s World Briefing Section contains another story, which will be posted separately, on a child marriage in Nepal (the children were a 3-year old boy married to a 6-month old girl).

Obviously, the child marriage story is interesting. But, it could also be argued that the Nagaland rebels story is far more important and deserved a separate article. Depends on whether the Nagaland story is just a bizarre event in a remote state or whether it is a symptom of a wider issue of law and order and separatist movements in India. I don`t know enough about Nagaland to judge. Just observing here what makes news and what doesn`t.



NEW YORK TIMES VERSION FROM NYT DATED FEB 26, 2003:

INDIA: REBELS KIDNAP 300 Separatist rebels have abducted about 300 political workers in the northeastern state of Nagaland over the last few days to prevent them from taking part in assembly elections, officials said. A security official said rebels had kidnapped supporters of candidates, mainly from the state`s governing Congress Party, at gunpoint from their homes, offices and during campaigning. The hostages are being held in rebel hideouts in thickly forested mountains. (Reuters)


THE FULL REUTERS REPORT, FROM FEBRUARY 25, 2002 7:23 am VERSION:

Rebels Holding Hundreds Hostage in Northeast India
**************************************
Reuters
Tuesday, February 25, 2003; 7:23 AM

ZAKHAMA, India (Reuters) - Separatist rebels have abducted about 300 political workers in India`s northeastern state of Nagaland over the past few days to prevent them from participating in assembly polls Wednesday, an official said.

A security official said rebels had kidnapped supporters of candidates, mainly from the ruling Congress party, at gunpoint from their homes, offices and during campaigning. The hostages are being held in rebel hideouts in thickly forested mountains.

``The rebels are holding about 300 people hostage in different parts of the state to prevent them from voting,`` Lalthara, Nagaland`s chief electoral officer, told Reuters on Tuesday. ``The hostages are likely to be released after the voting is over.``

This is the first time that the guerrillas from the Naga National Council and two factions of the National Socialist Council of Nagaland have used such tactics before an election.

In the past, the groups fighting for an independent tribal homeland in Christian-dominated Nagaland have called for a poll boycott or attacked security vehicles and election officials.

Nagaland is one of India`s seven northeastern states plagued by separatist violence for more than half a century. More than 50,000 people had died in almost five decades of fighting between rebel forces and government troops.

The government held talks with a faction of the NSCN last month to end more than half a century of separatist revolt in the northeast, but made no headway.

The powerful Naga National Council had warned tribesmen to stay away from voting or ``face dire consequences.``

Some 225 candidates are in the fray for the 60-member assembly in Nagaland, one of four states due to vote for new assemblies Wednesday.

``The situation is very, very bad, lots of intimidation and torture of supporters of candidates is going on,`` Lalthara said.

Officials said rebels had blocked routes leading to polling stations and all the state`s 1,583 polling stations had been declared ``hypersensitive.``

An army official in Zakhama on the outskirts of the state capital, Kohima, said soldiers had intensified patrolling and rushed to remote villages where guerrillas had a free run.

Authorities have clamped a night curfew in Nagaland ahead of the vote and soldiers with automatic rifles have set up observation posts on hilltops to monitor guerrilla movements.












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