Tunnel Vision

ahmadzai # 110 . . . there we go again, taking BBC as the fountain of truth and purveyor of correct perceptions as well as protectors of the Protestant part of the Christian faith as long as the Pope is not involved, like in Ireland, so when BBC claims 200000 dead take it with the same pinch of salt as 70/80000 dead in J&K . . . sure there are separatist movements everywhere in India starting from the smallets family unit (say, 50% of married couple want to separate at one time or the other, so??) . . . as far as Nagaland goes, let me give you some input which is closer to the truth, that movements go on and on . . . the biggest separatist leader of them all in Nagaland used to be Phizo, this is way back in the `50s. His grandson died wearing an Indian Army uniform fighting Kashmiri separatists, I know because he was my first cousin. The one regiment that covered itself with glory from the Indian side during Kargil was the Naga Regiment, formed under the Kumaonis.

Pakistan has escaped accusations of cross-border terrorism in Nagaland because of the simple reason that there is no geographical linkage, also maybe because the Nagas are smart, like people from Chittagong Hill Tracts and nearby areas of erstwhile East Pakistan?

HOWEVER, in deference to Saima`s article, what you have brought out, Ahmadzai, once again, is how we South Asians can be so easily wound up by the odd BBC/CNN report, timed to perfection. Did this BBC report mention that 75% voting took place, that all said and done, it was the Welsh Baptists who tried their best for decades to inspire breakaway fundamentalism in India`s North East . . . and that as on date, things are improving?

No, BBC will point out that there is no bijli/pani . . . well, for that matter, there is no bijli/pani in Delhi. So what?

It is about time we as a group at chowk started looking into who says what about our countries and try to give joint responses.

Next trip, I am going to Cork and shall write the final piece on Ireland for South Asian audiences. I got a batchmate there running an off-licence and restaurant there . . .

harish_hyd:

``Yaar, what have you been drinking?``

Not Desai Cola at least ;)

But let us not give into anger my friend. We are only taking benefit of this interactive board to exchange views with each other:)

``I repeat: Pakistan`s so-called realization was not voluntary. It was forced to make a U-turn under threat. Remember Colin Powell`s famous midnight telephone call to Mushy? Until then Pakistan was merrily basking in the illusion of strategic depth. ``

And I repeat, it was voluntary at least on part of the military junta and the moderate Pakistanis (who have polled 57% in the recent elections as opposed to Taliban supportes who polled 11 %). That is why several steps were already announced on August 14, 2001 by General Musharraf. Yes, I agree with you that it was not voluntary for a majority of Pakhtoons (population = 8-11% of the total Pakistani population) and all the Islamists of Pakistan.

``As for your reference to the Contras, as I said in my earlier post, the US acts when it perceives a threat to its interests, whether or not ``X`` is a military threat doesn`t really matter. ``

That is true with Pakistan also. We perceived threat from Talibans indirectly that would lead to a direct threat from the USA. So it became easier for General Musharraf to convince the moderates to turn blinders to extremists to make a U-Turn. Now, even the extremist Islamists claim that they were incorrectly supporting Talibans for the latter did not know how to conduct the affairs in present day.

In a nutshell, we are part of coalition and our support is being appreciated by White House every now and then (most recent came 2 days ago).

As regards Kashmir, we will keep making our position heard. This is in the interest of the entire developing world. Terrorism and freedom struggle has to be defined differently.

Suppose if America invades Iran as the 2nd country of the axis of evil and occupies it and Iranians start an armed struggle against Americans to liberate Iran, would we call it terrorism? Never. If Australia decides to make a pre-emptive strike against some alleged terrorist bases, which Indonesians deny and retaliate, would we call that terrorism? Never.

Terrorism will have to be defined in the strictest of terms. Pakistan is already acting as a leading voice on this matter and you will notice, will be respected shortly for doing just that.

Whether Pakistan gets Kashmir or not is another issue.

Saima 101,

PARENTHETIC DISMISSAL

``wish that India`s policy of pressuring Pakistan could work--but I think India is being foolish, ( frankly I am sick of the military and the jehadis too) but it isnt, it is breeding more insecurity, ``

If I remeber my grammer correctly, the clause with in the bracket is called parenthetic clause, great a parenthetic dismissal of the jihadists.

bY EQUATING INDIA AND PAKISTAN AND ALL THE TALK ABOUT PEACE IS SUPPORTED ONLY BY A PARENTHETIC DISMISSAL OF JIHADISTS. kERALA HAS 25 PERCENT MUSLIMS, a lot more than most of the other states, the ditrict of malappuram has almost 100 percent muslims.
Why ni jihadists in karala, why no jihadists in hyderabad, well they do not have a border with pakistan.

Presence of pakistan in the border was unknown to many in the south, now it is a remebered every time a jawan is given the last rites with military honours. In pakistan you never hear of the killed pakistanis, they are the uncountables, no pakistani has been killed in afghanistan or kashmir, no news paper reports it, even the great author saima refuses to accept it even parenthetically.

India has no kashmir problem, the world has an emerging pak problem. The simple hijacking of the indian airlines, the blow up of the twin towers, we know what is next. Attack on iraq is the first step. N.Korea is the next. For whom the salat sounds.

The last nail on the gandhian non agression has been stuck, india is entering big way in arms production, the taboo of selling arms is gone, in a short time arms sales will only be second to IT. Absolute no talks with pakistan is the right move. In agra all that mushy had to say was,, kashmir banega pakistan, the summit ended with out even a joint press statement. While peace was being talked in lahore the present peace lover was moving his troops to the heights of kargill. When saima parenthetically does not like the jihadists, a few thousand more are leaving the nadrassas and looking for the kafirs. What pakistanis need is a little bit of honesty, honesty to accept that they all beleieven in jihad, the killing of kafirs.

saima shah

This is a very good article. There are strong emotions on both sides but a constituency for peace is also building. Good job, saima.

Sadna at # 106:

Yesterday, BBC showed piece on Nagaland. I was astonished to hear that it is one of the 7 Indian states in the north east India where separatist movements are going on.

The audience were told that about 200,000 Christians of this state have been killed by Indian army since last 50 years or so. BBC also showed an interview with Naga writer Iralu, who was very critical of the ways things are being run by Indian military in Nagaland.

Also see the links to news on the home page of this website. It reports separatist related violence.

I wonder how Pakistan has escaped accusation of cross-border infilteration in those states ;)

#108 by ahmadzai on February 26, 2003 9:23pm PT

Yaar, what have you been drinking? I repeat: Pakistan`s so-called realization was not voluntary. It was forced to make a U-turn under threat. Remember Colin Powell`s famous midnight telephone call to Mushy? Until then Pakistan was merrily basking in the illusion of strategic depth.

As for your reference to the Contras, as I said in my earlier post, the US acts when it perceives a threat to its interests, whether or not ``X`` is a military threat doesn`t really matter.

[Despite no open support on Kashmir and freedom fighting from the world at large, Pakistan is raising the issue at each and every platform to the complete disappointment of India. Hence, more belligerence and irritation on India`s part.]

This is the funniest part of your post. Like a worn out gramophone record, you have been raising the Kashmir issue at every goddamn forum since 1947, so what`s new? On the contrary, it is Pakistan that is irritated and disappointed, because the world has woken up to its perfidious ways and no one, including your so-called best friend, China, takes you seriously anymore. Remember Kargil when Nawaz Sharif was politely told that Pakistan must withdraw its troops from the Indian side of the LoC? Nancy Powell`s statement that Pakistan must stop being a platform for terrorism, Mushy`s recent complaint that the OIC was no longer supportive of Pakistan`s effort to raise the Kashmir issue at every OIC meet, and Malaysia`s refusal to include reference to Kashmir in the draft declaration at the NAM summit are indicative of the reverses Pakistan is facing at the political and diplomatic level.

India: Carnage in Gujarat Unpunished
_____________________************
For Immediate Release:

India: Carnage in Gujarat Unpunished
Communal Violence Continues

(New York, February 27, 2003) — One year after the beginning of communal
violence in Gujarat that claimed over 2,000 lives, there have been no
convictions of those responsible and little in the way of promised
relief for victims, Human Rights Watch said today.

Although the Indian government initially boasted of thousands of arrests
following the attacks, most of those arrested have since been released
on bail, acquitted or simply let go. According to local activists, those
who remain in jail largely belong to Dalit (so-called untouchable),
Muslim or tribal communities. Due to manipulations in the filing of
charge sheets, the instigators and ringleaders of the attacks may escape
prosecution altogether.

harish_hyd at # 102

Please read my post at # 90.

``While the US made a U-turn when it realized OBL had become a threat to US interests, ....``

By the same logic, we also realized that supporting Talibans was detrimental to our own strategic interests. We realized that the choice is between Talibans or the Daisy Cutters. While Tlibans may or may

OK compare the situation with the Americans supporting the Contras in Central America in the 80s. They made a U-Turn against Contras despite that the latter posed no military threat to the US.

``As for calling India fundamentalists, Pakis perhaps are only people who`d do that. The whole world recognizes India as a secular democracy.``

Now, I think you have not been watching CNN and BBC or reading articles in NYT and WP on the wave of fundamentalism and extremism that the world is witnessing in India.

It is because of this weaknesses for the first time in Indian history that Pakistan is on the offensive. Despite no open support on Kashmir and freedom fighting from the world at large, Pakistan is raising the issue at each and every platform to the complete disappointment of India. Hence, more belligerence and irritation on India`s part.

Again, for details, please read my post at # 90.

Looks like ali_1 and ahmedmadani are the latest versions of that handsome and fair-like-Arab Waqaralisheikh. Amazing how Pakistan manages to produce so many of them!!

Saima #101
``There are seven states that house terrorists who want separation``

Which seven states do you mean, just for information ?

You also say
``In my opinion, the idea of nation state for this plural culture that we share is completely FLAWED. There was some merit to the way things were run 200 years ago. The change to the nation state is too fast and doesnt work. India and Pakistan are trying to make it work``

Then you say
`` India probably thinks that a broken and unstable Pakistan, with USA`s help wouldnt be a problem anymore``

By saying both these things, are you infact arguing for an unbroken Pakistan and broken India as a solution?


ahmedmadani #104
Analysis incomplete w/o `lafengaybaazi` :)

ali_1 # 97 . . . you are so intuitive, so well informed, the clarity of your thought is so brilliant, while I am so miserable a wretch? How did you go about checking on so many khaki chaddees, did you ask or does your sense of smell get you there?

Just one thing, though:- if we in India are so good at planning and executing pogroms, then why is it that more Muslims have been eliminated in Pakistan since Independence, than in India? Do you want the numbers, or will you deny East Pakistan again?

The article is very good as topic is good.
I hope i give nearsite not tunnel vision just real stuff. There is no misundertanding by india and Pakistan people and govt. Let us be honet except this foren ran expak have strenge attitudes are snob as if General PM and PM Atal are not understanding and fools and just because one works under foren man in foren country he knows better than General( He was trained in military) and Atal is poet and college drop out but does not mean they are not as smarts as expak and exindia.
Both understand very well and though atal is dropout he knows to win elections and become pm. Same General is smart enought to to become COAS and become president.
So they have very clear point . India wants to kill pakistan and Pakistan wants to kill india.
Look Jinnah and gandhi cut india as they new we have to. Look Karachi and Lahore had substantially big nearing almost 50% population of hins and sikhs. But they new it will be miserable in pakistan they left. They did not didnot decide due tunnel vision but due to clear vision. Same all muslils of UP Mohajirs came to pakistan.
We like when we read some people in india killed also hindus enjoys when recently slaughter of Shias in Karachi. Let us be honest. Hindus want to kill muslims and muslims want to kill hindus if possible. Look in gujrat state 56 were slaughter by Muslims and then hindus killed in temple agin two killed 38 hindus. You can not control religious people. We have blood history between hindus and muslims. Good wishes do no miracles. We feel good about and pakitans hero as Ghori for hindus these are most barbaric people just as we feel about Indira gandhi who broke pakistan and no ordinary pakistan is going to consider has our hero. We name Ghori as he destroyed their gods temples 13 times and that shows our hatred for hindus. Just like if Palestanians name their missiles as hitler. Our mutual hatred is so much that ghori is same as hitler to hindus and we knowingly put names of missiles even though he was not even remotely Punjabi or Sindhi etc. And same way their missiles are name of hindu gods who are false gads to most pakistanies.
This is struggles of almost 1000 years going on and as I say after 1700s with Demolition of Mughal empipe and rise of maraths as hindu rulers. british becming owners just supressed problem for time being. from 1857 hindus knew they won and for them it was just waiting game. hindus have become aggressive took muslim states of kashmir, junagarh, hyderbadstate and dismembered pakistan. yes we were stupid trating e.pak as colony but it it does not change``secular`` india cut pakistan to size they felt.
best corse is to stop all interaction, no relationship no nicities. just pure enemies.
If pakistan want to survive, stop day dreaming. get ready for total war. raise million strong army . let nuclear weapons read or do slow death under wieght of our real master usa, . that is what is happening slow death. In next 20 years indian population will demand water and it will be diverted, world will say we should talk to india. same thing they told when indians crossed internatonal borders and Jinnahs pakistan. They will take revange. Its natural even Muslim turkey dis same by building dams in turkey made suffer Iraq and Syriya and world said nothing. Everyday indian hindu soldiers are killed and freedom fighter are also killed, the war of 1000 cut as great Military thinker General gul said. We are trying to kill india , indians are doing same. The enemy is smart and dangerous like crocodile. Killing revange is natural. We should make efforts which can save us is Muslim Ummah. Now many says its pipe dream. Let us look in east. There is hindu Ummah that is india if 820 million hindus can have democratic Ummah why not 1.3 Billion strong Ummah. Today 820 million Hindus are united ummah, even tamils who are not hindus have also joined that ummah ( recently Tamil chief minister said hindu in tamil means thief.). Stop tunnel vision, either all expaks should buy pakistan defence bonds in dollor as talk is cheap and they should ask themselves what they have done for pakistan, for defence of pakistan , or they just are in love with pakistan on abstract level and do not want to come to ground and put money or people like me say put or shut up. If Expak really wants to do more than talk( Talk) just give pakistan govt. 5% of your dollr earnings. As the war is alraedy on, and the smoke is coming and flame are also showing up. Stop utipoia and get ready to help pakistan with our going war the war which is going feom when Mo. Bin cassim salughter hidu ruler of Sindh . Now many may not like to here bitter truth but this wahat I feel

``Faced with a superior adversary and burning with impotent rage``

Well, well well!!! Look who`s back from the dead...the great Ali#1.

Who is the ``superior adversary``?? Pakistan??? HAHAHA!!!!!!

Dude, you get a job as a script writer for South Park.

Re: einstein wallah

Peace is desirable from India`s point of view too. That is my contention and that is why I wrote this in the first place.

1. Billions of dollars are being spent on arms and weapons that can enhance the quality of life of the seperatists, thereby reducing their chances of wanting seperation and carrying out terrorist acts.

2. The problems of ethnic hatred continues, inspite of 55 years of democracy and a highly educated middle class. why?

3. There are seven states that house terrorists who want separation.

4. The combined might of this region, its human population can be put to use to reduce poverty and increase welfare.

5. In my opinion, the idea of nation state for this plural culture that we share is completely FLAWED. There was some merit to the way things were run 200 years ago. The change to the nation state is too fast and doesnt work. India and Pakistan are trying to make it work, by showing a hostile enemy, but what is the point, if that attempt leads to an awful war killing everybody?

6. I am afraid of war and nuclear deployment. I believe that when weapons are made, people use them to kill each other. A highly emotional and strongly prejudiced South Asia (both assertions are supported by many encounters at Chowk) is a sitting bomb. It doesn`t matter who throws the bomb, everybody will die.

7. I wish that India`s policy of pressuring Pakistan could work--but I think India is being foolish, ( frankly I am sick of the military and the jehadis too) but it isnt, it is breeding more insecurity, more weapon spending, more extremism, less democracy, which will come to haunt every country in this region. I know that India probably thinks that a broken and unstable Pakistan, with USA`s help wouldnt be a problem anymore. But that stance is hardening attitudes in Pakistan,and India. People`s conscience is growing more and more quiet visavis India. I see Pakistan as a threat to India too. As much as India is a threat to Pakistan. I know that India doesnt see that. I dont know what the cause of the self congratulation and euphoria is (economy, public opinion, USA perhaps) but I sure hope they are right:)

India and Pakistan are siamese twins attached at the hip. Other countries around the world have conducted experiments and figured out that a friendly neighbour is a better one. Why can`t we learn from their history? love thy neighbour isnt just morality it is practicality.

#84 by ahmadzai on February 26, 2003 7:01am PT

Ahmadzai, you must be smoking funny cigarettes to compare Pakistan`s U-turn with either Uncle Sam`s or India`s. While the US made a U-turn when it realized OBL had become a threat to US interests, India had to adopt a strident posture when it realized Pakistan does not understand the language of diplomacy. Pakistan on the other hand was forced into making a U-turn on its Afghan policy under Uncle Sam`s ``you are with us or against us`` threat. Mushy very well realized Pakistan`s plight had it refused to make that U-turn.

As for calling India fundamentalists, Pakis perhaps are only people who`d do that. The whole world recognizes India as a secular democracy.

ali_1: Pakistan too has hatred and prejudice and openly denies women`s rights. As for status of women in India: From press coverage it seems villagers kill female fetuses in some states. Also, some households are anti-muslim basically because they havent lived or met muslims on a regular basis. There are nasty people and ignorant people on both sides. But there are some things that India has that Pakistan I believe doesn`t have:
1. a sense of history, that Pakistan lacks
2. Arts--music, song, dance
3. women are not so much a visible miniority as in Pakistan
4. democratically elected government
5. A bigger more vocal and perhaps better off middle class
6. Pakistan is more violent, more guns on average. P has a bigger law and order problem
otherwise prejudice is equally distributed.

Can we please stop the comparison shopping? it is pointless. Can we instead raise our voice against the attitudes that blind us? instead of finding scapegoats can we fight the source of the problem? the ignorance, the prejudice and the bad habit of blaming the other for all problems. Once we see prejudice as the problem, rather than the nationality, there is so much that becomes do-able.

re: einsteinwallah

Even the bleakest night yields to Dawn.