Tunnel Vision

UNDERSTANDING HINDUSTAN Part II

A Hindu child is taught to hate Muslims right in the lap of his mother. Phrases like ``Babar desecrated the Ram Janambhoomi``, ``Aurangzeb destroyed the temple at Mathura`` get whispered into his ears before he even starts to talk. Muslim is the ``other``, the enemy, the vermin, the one to be loathed, feared and killed when possible.

The next step for the Hindu child is the RSS schooling and indoctrination. All the top Indian leaders today have been to this RSS petri dish, Advani, Bagpipe, Modi, you name it. Wearing crisp khaki chaddis, young Hindus are taught not just to hate and loathe muslims and christians but also given training in arson, looting and miscellaneous weapons which they put to practical use during riots.

So we get the hate filled Hindus in two varieties, ones that don`t attend RSS schools and have ``just`` the hatred but not the skills to translate this hatred into violence. The other variety are the ones who learned to hate from their home and reinforced it with the training to kill muslims and christians. The former become the jays, the veereshes, the pmishras and the sadnas of chowk.com, the later become the Modis and the Advanis. When the later execute well planned pogroms, the former reward them with the leadership of India.

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re: ali_1

...did you register with the INS yet?...will they be flying you down to guantamo bay to be serviced by your cousins who are already there?....

re:#85 by sinan The statistics you presented will not say why India has world renouned IITs, world calibre software development centers in Bangalore and Hyderabad while all that Pakistan has been producing is IT of a different class (International Terrorism). statistics are tricky. They can be twisted whichever way you want.
sridhar

INDIA IS GERMANY OF THE 30`s AND MODI IS THE NEW HITLER

From Newsweek:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/876156.asp

In the interacts earlier on, a joker claimed that minorities are better off in India as compared with Pakistan. The above throws some light on that.

The wanker also claimed that women are better off in India.... one fourth of them are killed directly in the womb so I guess those killed are better off then the three fourths who have to face dowry deaths and institutionalized dev dasi prostitution when they grow up.

India already has the highest female infanticide rate in the whole world. As medical facilities improve in India and ultra-sound technology becomes more widespread, the male/female ratio will distort further. Maybe they should legalize gay marriage right now in anticipation. Imagine Bagpipe and Azad married to each other and living happily ever after.

[ #69 by SaimaShah on February 25, 2003 3:31pm PT
...
The idea that peace /IS/ desirable and that it /IS/ possible. ...]

You are wrong on both counts. Peace is not desirable. At least not from India`s point of view. India is plagued by poweful centrifugal forces. Had Pakistan been a friendly country, India would have broken into at least 2 (or may be more) parts. With each passing day India is becoming more and more cohessive and interdependent society. India is not US, so it needs more same adversorial stance from Pakistan for some more time. Besides with now US`s interest in Pak`s nukes piqued a fundamentalist Govt in Pak will put Pakistan under watch from almost every nation of earth that counts: US, Russia etc. Even China cannot ignore a fundametalist Govt in Pakistan.

Also peace is not possible because of Pakistan. Any peace proposal from Pakistan is suspect and temporary. Pakistan has lost its credibility. All its words written/unwritten are suspect. To make peace possible India has nothing to do. I am sure India has resigned to LOC as a de facto border. Inking an agreement (of doubtful value) with Pakistan to accept it as de jure border means nothing if jihadic killings continue. Whereever you place borders killings will continue unless Pakistan wants them to stop. Border between India and Pakistan is not any different from any other similar border between two countries. Eaxmples: Mexico/US, Canada/US etc etc. Why is there no killings going on at these places? Because people and Govts do not actively support killings.

Jo Musalman Pakistan Me Uss Paar Chale Gaye Unhe Pakistan Mubarak, Jo Musalman India Me Reh Gaye Wo Bharsakk Koshish KareN Ki Woh IndianoN Ke Saath peace Ke Saath RaheN, Aur Pakistan border Paar Se India Ke Bhai-Bhai Me Phut Daalnaa Band Kar DeN, Tab-bhi peace Mumkin Hai. Jab Tak Pakistan India Me suicidal jihadists ke Aane Se Roktaa NaheeN, Tab Tak peace Naheen Ho Saktee. Period.

#91 ali_1

I know this is hard for you to understand but in a democracy the prime minister is just one person representing his party. He is not some super-human whom we all consider our ``khalifah``. I know this will be almost imposiible for you to understand!! But please, do try...

To make it worse, Vajpayee`s personal and even food habits are discussed and sometimes ridiculed by various other politicians in India. In other words, your silly prattlings are far from original; indeed, they aren;t even as interesting as many already made in india.

Sigh ! Better try again.....

INDIA: 12-year-old boy arrested as terrorists
==========================

``Anyone caught with a copy of the Communist Manifesto or (Mao`s) Red
Book
becomes a suspicious character.``

12-year-old boy arrested under Pota
******************************
AKSHAYA MUKUL

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 20, 2003 02:04:05 AM ]

NEW DELHI: India may not be breaking many world records these days but here`s something for the Guiness book: the world`s youngest ``terrorist``, and the oldest.

....

UNDERSTANDING HINDUSTAN:

Enraged Vajpayee tears up script to lash Pakistani leader

http://jang.com.pk/thenews/feb2003-daily/25-02-2003/main/main4.htm

Its a pity to see Bajpayi performing cheap histronics to get world`s attention. Faced with a superior adversary and burning with impotent rage, Atal ``eunuch baba`` Vajpayee is an accurate representation of India, or rather the 800 million majority eunuch community of India. The bully gets slapped around in the neighborhood but comes home to thrash the wife and kids, i.e. Indian minorities. Pakistan should beware `cause at the next global summit Bagpipe might just swallow his dhoti and flash his invalid apparatus to get some attention.

A recent question on a TV quiz show on PTV: Name the country where both the President and PM can`t get a boner?

Jay and Veeresh:

I am responding to the two of you in this lengthy post so that we could exchange views and could take advantage of each others knowledge based on typical culture and ethnic background that we hail from.

Jay wrote: ``The fact is that pakiatanis did not change their position on taliban. The famous words, ``if you are not with us, you are against us`` made the difference, the vision of daisy cutters on the presidential palace, made the difference.``

The word `fact` is a misnomer. The fact to you may be disinformation for me coming straight from your staunch anti-Pakistani stance. Pakistanis (well, I would say Pakhtoons and Islamists of Pakistan) may not have changed their opinion about Talibans, but they did stop supporting them. The threat of daisy cutters could be a factor, but more importantly, General Musharraf had announced certain anti-Talibani measures on 14th August 2001, i.e. before 9/11. Before that, his Government was testing the strength of Talibani support in Pakistan, some time going two steps forward and one back.

Since I am a Pakhtoon, I can attest to it that it has been most unfortunate part of our history that we as an ethnic group saw Talibans as the saviors of Islam. It is perhaps because of the simple assumption that Islam as practiced by Talibans closely reflected our Pakhtoon values that we (not me personally) got carried away and still miss their rule. also, more than missing their rule is the resentment that comes from news pouring in Pakistan on Pushtoon killings in Afghanistan by indiscriminate US bombing, etc.

However, the current rebellion against coalition forces in Afghanistan is due to only one person - Gulbadeen Hikmatyaar. The western media refers to him as a war lord, but he is much more than that. He was the leader of the Hizbe Islami, the most funded and armed Mujahid party during the Afghan war of the 80s. If coalition forces do not curb Tajiks and Uzbeks of their excesses, I predict that he will be able to unite all common Pushtoons of Afghanistan very shortly against the coalition forces. He will be joined by Hazara and persian speaking Shia factions in his campaign to dislodge coalition forces out of Afghanistan. And have it in writing from me - the arms are being and will be provided by Russia (guess the reason why?), not by Pakistan and not by Iran.

Jay added: ``Now it is obvious to every one that most part of so called taliban were pakistanis. Most were slaughtered and the peace in afghanistan today and the fact that any military activity is in the borders of pakistan is the proof. ``

No, its not obvious. The media claimed that 60 to 70,000 Pakistanis were fighting along side Talibans. If the media says that most were slaughtered then this huge numbers could not have gone unnoticed by Human Right organizations. If you read the stories written in Times, Newsweek and even National Geographic, subsequent to Taliban extinction, you would notice that they mention that Talibans had the support of majority Pakhtoons of Afghanistan. Even now, when CNN or BBC give coverage of Afghans on any matter, they only show interviews with Tajiks, not with Pakhtoons and not with Shiite Hazaras (the latter can be distinguished from their distinctive Tartari features). Even now, Pakhtoons and Hazaras are now united in our lost cause, since both of us are now marginalized under US occupation. Incidently, this is also bringing Pakistan and Iran together. Talibans burried, both of us are getting more and more closer to each other.

``The core value of pakistan of hatered based on religion has not changed and the recent attack on the mosque is the classic TNT attack to ensure that those killed are of the shia variety. There are many muslim countries and pakistan is the only country where the attack takes place at religious places, atrue TNT based attack. ``

It has nothing to do with TNT. The attacks on Shia mosques are by terrorists. These are similar to attacks on some immigrants in the USA by unknown assailants in the wake of 9/11. In both these places, these attacks were not by mobs as they are in India for example or in Indonesia against their minorities. These were terroristic hit and runs.

Furthermore, one has to note that even in our extremist MMA, Shia representative party is present.

Jay further said: ``The blasphemy laws ensures that no one can say any good word about another religion. Even on the anaonymity of chowk, the ilks of tahmed, the educated of pakistan refuse to say that another religion is as goos as islam. The superiority of islam and the jihadic notion of killing the kafirs is in engraved in the pakistani DNA, the charecteristic of the species, homo erectus pakistanicus.``

The blasphemy laws ensure that no one says any wrong thing about any other religion. While I would reserve my views on Mr. tahmed, I would agree with you on the limitations of religious education in Pakistan. I agree with you that Pakistanis need to bring some flexibility in our education.

And Veeresh wrote: ``Most of all, with all respect to every body on this board, will you admit that Shia-Sunni strife is at the root of most problems in Pakistan? ``

There is no Shia-Sunni strife at people level in Pakistan. Shias and Sunnis are both present in the establishment, military, parliament, judiciary, media, etc.

If there were any Shia-Sunni strife at a greater level, then the cowards would not be shooting innocent civilians like they do and run away like sewer rats.

The aim of these terorists is not to destabilize Pakistan, because they are so illiterate that they would not even know that their tarrorism would harm their own ``Sunni`` country. These belong to some extremist functions, who have been exposed in the media. However, one must understand that terrorism is a very difficult task to stop. It is a long drawn war and it claims its victims.

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UNDERSTANDING PAKISTAN,

The unique aspect of pakistan is its ideology of creation, the TNT, the central element fow hich is that muslims cannot live with people of other religions. Essentially, this is an emphesis on one aspect of islam, jihad, and formed the foundation of pakistans creation. Many say that taliban is the outcome of US support to overthrow russians in pakistan. That is only an external stimulus, but the crucial factor is the jihadic value that created pakistan. There were ten million bangladeshi refugees in india, a couple of million tibetians, refugees all over the world, but only pakistan created the taliban.

The same is true for kashmir. A new generation has grown up in pakistan, indoctrinated in the TNT values and that will sustain a jihadic force in pakistan. The defeat of taliban has freed afghanistan, but there is no hope for pakistan. Even if the military is defeated, the basic attitude of the people, the tendency to identify a kafir and kill him will continue.

In karachi, in the past five years there have 150 sectarian attacks on communities, only 5 people have been prosecuted. The prevailing view in pakistan is that sectarian killings are religion sanctioned and are as such legal. It took twen years and numerous protests from iran to arrest the killers of iranian diplomats.

Pakistan will emerge as the fountain spring of religious hatred for decades to come. Mushy talking about peace is only a pretention, no different from that of tahmed who supports status quo by attacking every portrayal of pak reality as hatred. No pakistani wants change in the basic values, but of course they talk of roti kapda and makkan, and that cannot come with out getting rid of TNT values. Time that the educated pakistanis say something positive about other religions, to begin with, as a pretention.

OK. Simple numbers. If the cost of learning curve as countries is to suffer a potential loss of a few million people, then will it be worth it, or will we continue to bicker?

Here is a scenario:- we go to war, we manage to pull down the few aircraft left flying, and then we stalemate because we run out of money, gas as well as sustainability. Meanwhile, a few million people have died.

We then get into discussion or debate mode, a la USA vs Iraq or similar. For that moment in history, if it comes, please let us all try to ignore the fact that I am Indian. So ask of the Pakistanis . . .

Will you even then still only discuss Kashmiris from Srinagar dying in Poonch while ignoring Kashmiris from Gilgit dying in Karachi? Will you only worry about deaths in Gujarat while ignoring deaths in Baltistan? Will you demand independence for Kashmir while parting with more land from Northern Agencies to China?

And while bemoaning the lack of land movement between India and Pakistan since 2002, will you bring up with the Chinese on whether they would re-open the land route to China for Pakistani tourists, shut since 1999?

Most of all, with all respect to everybody on this board, will you admit that Shia-Sunni strife is at the root of most problems in Pakistan?

But no. It is so much simpler to hit at India, Kashmir . . .

Ahmed 84,

The fact is that pakiatanis did not change their position on taliban. The famous words, ``if you are not with us, you are against us`` made the difference, the vision of daisy cutters on the presidential palace, made the difference.

Now it is obvious to every one that most part of so called taliban were pakistanis. Most were slaughtered and the peace in afghanistan today and the fact that any military activity is in the borders of pakistan is the proof.

The core value of pakistan of hatered based on religion has not changed and the recent attack on the mosque is the classic TNT attack to ensure that those killed are of the shia variety. There are many muslim countries and pakistan is the only country where the attack takes place at religious places, atrue TNT based attack.

The blasphemy laws ensures that no one can say any good word about another religion. Even on the anaonymity of chowk, the ilks of tahmed, the educated of pakistan refuse to say that another religion is as goos as islam. The superiority of islam and the jihadic notion of killing the kafirs is in engraved in the pakistani DNA, the charecteristic of the species, homo erectus pakistanicus.

Jay at # 78 & other Indian friends in other posts:

``Nothing can beat the kargill invasion, support for taliban.``

If Pakistani Government supported Talibans in the 90s, they realized it was a mistake. So they made a u-turn in 2001.

US Government had supported OBL during the 80s, but they realized their mistake by 90s. So they made a u-turn too.

There was nothing wrong with either US` or Pakistan`s policy. The strategy can change with the passage of time. Pakistanis were seeking strategic depth through controling Talibans. They realized that strategic depth comes from Iran, not from Talibani Afghanistan.

Come to think of it, even the Indians have made a u-turn. They were secular moderates to begin with. They realized their mistake and thought that they were being taken advantage of. They are now firmly placed in the league of extremists and fundamentalists.

;)

1.142 billion poor people hostage to hatred

INDIA FACTS
Population: 1 billion
Capital: New Delhi
Major languages: Hindi, English and 17 other official languages
Major religions: Hinduism, Islam, Christianity and Sikhism
Life expectancy: 59 years (men), 60 years (women)
Monetary unit: 1 Indian Rupee = 100 paise
Main exports: Agricultural products, textile goods, gems and jewelry, software services and technology, engineering goods, chemicals, leather products
Average annual income: US $460
Internet domain: .in
International dialling code: +91


PAKISTAN FACTS
Population: 142 million
Capital: Islamabad
Major languages: Urdu (official), Punjabi, Sindhi, Pashto, Balochi and English
Major religion: Islam
Life expectancy: 63 years (men), 65 years (women)
Monetary unit: 1 Pakistani Rupee = 100 paisa
Main exports: Textile products, rice, cotton, leather goods
Average annual income: US $470
Internet domain: .pk
International dialling code: +92

Source: BBC