Tunnel Vision

``where everybody in power is an Indian hating fundamentalist. ``

This is true right now. Nawaz Sharif, because of his commercial background, saw the economic sense that good relation with India made. Unfortunately, his people were not ready to absorb that reality.

Afrasiyab #10

Excellent post. I am guessing that you are Pakistani but you seem to have a more subtle and cadenced view of Indian complexities than most Pakistanis. Have you travelled to India?

BTW, I agree that this article was not well thought out but I see that as a positive sign. This article came from the author`s heart. It is not meant to be based on cold logic, rather the basis is emotional. I feel therefore that the article retains it`s freshness simply by not being too analytical.

Saima:

With reference to my comments above, I don`t mean to diss your analysis. If you get to the nitty-gritty, things are obviously more complex. But I think you are trying to speak of the big picture, and you manage to express your frustration with the staus quo well.

``---find a face saving solution to kashmir…then and only then can the leaders give undivided attention to the pressing problems of the masses…

----
How? without help from India, it aint happening. Unless the rightists in India see a material, clear benefit to solving Kashmir. ``

LOC as Border. That`s the first, last and only offer on the table. Why should India give up territory?

On Kashmir, the Indians have no problem with the status quo. Pakistani position goes something like this..give us what we want, or more terrible people will come and do more terrible things...and then we will fight, and that is a lose lose situation..therefore give us what we want!!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#76 champs


This is really silly stuff and should be treated as such. The pakistani generals will be paid for their vote in the UN. All of this money will be gobbled up to build homes and retirement bases in the west. It has no relationship to the dynamic economy and vast social changes that are taking place in India.

Musharraf says he didn`t come to NAM summit to raise tempers
- -
Kuala Lumpur: After failing to elicit any response from the Non-Aligned Movement on Kashmir, Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf on Tuesday claimed he had not come to the Summit to seek support on the issue and ``raise tempers`` but was ready for a dialogue with India to resolve Kashmir and all outstanding matters. ``I had no no intention of raising tempers here and I did not name anyone in my address to NAM. I spoke about it (Kashmir) as a matter of principle,`` he told a press conference here after new NAM Chairman Malaysia made it clear that the 116-member grouping had no place for conflict resolution between member states.

Pime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee had lashed out at Musharraf for raising the Kashmir issue and comparing it to the Palestinian conflict saying that the Pakistani leader was trying to justify terrorism against India by talking about root causes. Despite being cold-shouldered

///This is the primary problem of pakistanis, the inability to think through the consequences. After raising kashmir in KL, now he is having foot in moith decease. Nothing can beat the kargill invasion, support for taliban. Now mushy is telling that osama is dead to save himself.

harimau #71

``You mean the same kind of moral and diplomatic support Pakistan extends to Kashmir jihadis? ``

Shiv, shiva! Not that kind.

harimau...
there are those rare times when I actually like and agree with what you say...having said that, it`s Farzana, F-A-R-Z-A-N-A. Not Farts Anna. come on guy...if you`re going to muck up names here, then why don`t you muck up the rest of our names while you`re at it?
signed
anasucksabanana

#69 saimashah


[quote]
4. Inspite of the adventurous streak of conquest in Islam, Muslims remained a minority here whereas they didnt anywhere else.
[end-quote]

Heh, heh ! What a clever way to put it. What a beautiful use of euphemism. Regreattably soo far from the truth.

Here is how I would put it: once the genocide of hindus and buddhists in what are now Afghanistan and Pakistan was complete and it had become clear that islam would be triumphant in North India, muslim invaders ended the genocide and complete destruction of the opposing culture. The emphasis shifted to enjoyment of empire based on explotation of the ``natives``.

However, care was taken to emphasize who the ``top dog`` was in every possible way, including the systematic destruction of hindu temples and artifacts throughout north india. This poisoned inheritance remains visible all over North India and a source of discord.

The complete ethnic cleansing of hindus (and sikhs) was finally completed after the establishment of Pakistan. A three thousand year old culture was systematically exterminated in the most brutal way possible with no historical structures or well organized communities remaining from the pre-islamic past. Now the land was finally ``pak`` -- ``pure`` !!

MIELD FARSHAL EXPOSED

Our resident field marshal quotes this guy as a symbol of neutrality, unbiasedness yada yada ...... And this charlatan is BRIAN CHOUGLEY.
GENTLEMEN, OPEN YOUR EYES AND READ THIS PIG BELOW AND ....



http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_26-2-2003_pg3_2

Pakistan is on a winner’s wicket. India has courageously refused to back the Bush war. So, obviously, President Pervez Musharraf must join the war party. His price should be an immediate demand by the US that all Kashmir should be ceded to Pakistan. (Get it in writing.) Not only will Mr Bush teach India the lesson that “You are with us or against us” but his action will add enormously to tension in the subcontinent and probably cause major conflict. Cool and awesome.

#68 by SaimaShah
//...Is isolating Pakistan, the only solution? ...//

I don`t know - but it is certainly working. Last year`s ``coercive diplomacy`` achieved much more for India than the much-vaunted Agra talks - Musharaf publicly pledged to stop cross-border terrorism ( there-by admitting the fact that he was doing so in first place ). Recently in NAM summit, Musharraf toned down his rhetoric on Kashmir, after being isolated completely, saying that he was NOT really seeking support for Kashmir issue - he was merely refering to it in VERY BROAD terms.

The almost daily calls for talks anywhere, anyplace, anybody is because Pakistan wants to break its isolation, gain some brownie points. Not because he really wants to build trust and find a compromise.

You may choose to believe in his rhetoric. Indians don`t. They have burnt their finger so many times. They have got exactly the opposite of what would be hoped for, from all of their peaceful engagements with Pakistan - Lahore, Agra ... etc. But they have achieved much more with a little show of force and ``coercive diplomacy`` and isolation.

So Indians are convinced that complete isolation of Pakistan is the only way to go. For time being, at least.

You prove it otherwise, show some good faith, then Indians might change their mind. And then they talk. Until then - your calls for talks with holier-than-thou postures are all rhetoric, as far as Indians are concerned. It is also very irritating, to say the least.

Ref FartsAna #60

[Those who want to extend the parameters of dialogue have a tough time. A Sikh friend with a UK passport happily crosses the border from India to Pakistan, and in fact naively told me that I could join him on the next visit. How? ``Oh, we can just walk across!`` he said. No, we cannot even fly there, I cannot.]

How about flying to Afghanistan, donning a burqa and crossing into NWFP or Balochistan? Or is Afghanistan taboo now that you favorite mullah and his sidekick are no longer in power there?

Ref sadna #65

[I feel sorry for all these suffering people and I think the truth needs to be uncovered for their sakes, which cannot happen unless there is dissent in Pakistan. I extend my moral and diplomatic support to all these people.]

You mean the same kind of moral and diplomatic support Pakistan extends to Kashmir jihadis?

Where do you keep your cache of arms?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

re: Farzana Versey

So there are saner voices. Bit suppressed, bit misunderstood, but they are on both sides of the divide.

re: rsaxena, pmishra2
:) you are funny. I believe every now and then somebody says India will invade Pakistan and will use force to deliver them--pls review many replies on Chowk--even on this article, people have said so. But when I agree it is suddenly not kosher. Dont forget George Fernandes and Mr Vajpayee himself.

re: PaagalInsaan
thanks very much. I have been a daily reader of Chowk (past 5.5 yrs)and a regular reader of both Pakistani and Indian newspapers visavis Indo Pak relations. This article is born from a long gestation--so I really appreciate the feedback, especially the Indian biased people at Chowk. I want to understand they underlying emotion visavis relationship with Pakistan. I dont have any positions to protect other than two. The idea that peace /IS/ desirable and that it /IS/ possible. This is the assumption that the article makes. We seem to have digressed into Indo Pak brick batting, but I am hoping somebody would notice the dangerous subtexts and contentions in the article. hey raam:( but they dont. I am really keen that SOMEONE would see the most horridly blasphemous contention here but it seems they missed it:). let me elaborate my thesis:

1. Indian and Pakistani people belong to a piece of land that they have shared for longer than divided it.
2. This `sharing` was based on small kingdoms
3. The old way protected the plural identities of all the people of Hind. Perhaps because the people of South Asia totally and completely believed in their traditions, religion and culture. There was little inter race or inter religious mixing though Hindus and Muslims lived together for centuries. It was NOT a US type melting pot.
4. Inspite of the adventurous streak of conquest in Islam, Muslims remained a minority here whereas they didnt anywhere else.
5. Islam itself changed in South Asia. The current muslims borrowed a lot of colour from the ancient culture of this region.
6. We as a region need each other. There is beauty to be found in each region`s culture, beliefs and dogma.
7. Peace through dialogue is possible, but courage and generosity is required.
8. The `liberal`, `lefts` on both sides share the same ideas. One possible bridge over the impossible rhetoric.
9. Let`s glory in the success`s of India and Pakistan and cry in each other`s sorrows, because it would be foolish to protect our wrong doings out of a desire for victory over the other.
10. The `other` is an imaginary identity. It has little basis in history, culture, language.
11. India is part of Pakistan and Pakistan is part of India. Not just the rightist Indian position, `Pakistan is part of India`.

re: sadna

hear hear! may the same spirit of truth permeate through out this region. I agree wholeheartedly that both India and Pakistan should encourage objectivity and fairness. Pakistan has a lot of ground to cover.

re: temporal
---find a face saving solution to kashmir…then and only then can the leaders give undivided attention to the pressing problems of the masses…

----
How? without help from India, it aint happening. Unless the rightists in India see a material, clear benefit to solving Kashmir.

but

…for this to happen…the people...the masses would have to come out in the streets and remove this occupying army and its civilian cohorts (or co-opts) from the equation…

--------
I wish things were that simple. But my perception is that the army is there because of Pakistan`s insecurity--both internal and external. India`s refusal to engage in any dialogue makes it extremely difficult for Pakistan to come to a face saving position. India knows it is in a strong position and they probably figure that exerting pressure will work in their favour and perhaps are stoic wrt war. But I wonder at this tactic all together. The show of force exacerbates the problem, somewhat. In a dead lock position, people get suicidal, not rational. example palestine. Is isolating Pakistan, the only solution? It is a solution that is scary--just think about it--if they succeed, Pakistan will become even more open to extremists.

temporal--it is we the people of both countries who have a responsibility to keep talking about Kashmir, to keep offering alternatives that are less machoistic and glorious but more practical.

A breakthrough is only possible if trust building measures are taken over a PERIOD of time. The suddenness of bus diplomacy, the suddenness of agra, were emotional knee jerk hopes. First there has to be trust build over a period of time. Visits from Pakistanis to India, from India to Pakistan. Coverage that presents the paki and indian pt. of view--Now it is all dismal, nobody talks anymore. This is spreading the fire of hate.