Tunnel Vision

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Sadna @ 176 & 177:

That is why the current Government of PML Q is envisaging a Kashmir solution in next 3 years that would neither be liked by Pakistanis not by Indians (ref. statement by our Information Minister).

I believe that a deal has already been struck with the US on this issue. Kashmir will be independent as I have proposed in my earlier posts. Pakistanis will not like it, because it does not get them entire Kashmir. Indians will not like it, because they have to let go of the Valley too.

Kashmir will be for Kashmiris. It will be up to them with whom they align themselves.

ahmadzai #174
The point here is that Pakistan doesnot like the world to recognise that a huge number of Indians are Muslims, because this would weaken Pakistan`s `case` in J&K.

ahmadzai #174
The point here is that Pakistan doesnot like the world to recognise that a huge number of Indians are Muslims, because this would weaken Pakistan`s `case` in J&K (the case it makes is of a Muslim country claiming a Muslim territory).

You cannot have a larger vision for S. Asia with a huge blind spot in that vision occupied by Indian Muslims, ie if Pakistan considers itself the sole representative of subcontinental Muslims, and in pressing its case in J&K, displaying in effect a blind spot for the existence and concerns of Indian Muslims.

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Sadna:

Although I would personally like India to be a member of OIC, I would like to add the following wrt the links:

1. I had thought that this was a recent event. This news is very old and India at that time use to enjoy the friendship of some Arab countries, being a non-US allied country.

2. Some countries also did not allow Pakistan`s entry into Asean as an observer country.

3. Recently, some countries proposed to make India a member of ECO too, which was blocked by Pakistan.

Suffice is to say that in the world relations are made on the basis of economics. But since Pakistan and India are fighting an undeclared war, they will continue to block each other`s attempts to economic gains. OIC is a dead horse in any case.

Ref SaimaShah #166

[re: Harimau
India is the greatest...happy?]

You don`t get it, do you?

ahmadzai
Here are the references for the OIC, India, Pakistan issue(it was 1969 in the time of Yahya Khan) and it was the Indian Ambassador to Morocco I meant, not Portugal, sorry.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/2002/11/17/stories/2002111703830800.htm

India, Pakistan and the OIC


http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2002/11/25/stories/2002112500131002.htm
India and OIC (letter to editor)

SaimaShah #166
Sure new ideas should be explored but there is no point in talking about imaginary things which cannot be realised.

And its your prerogative to call what I say a rightist position. I call it plain insurmountable fact.

History will show that we landed in the current imbrologio because a certain romantic poet Prime Minister upped and went to Lahore. The Pakistani Army was so thrilled that an Indian Prime Minister was actually offering talks on Kashmir that they decided that the Indians were `tired` and decided if they(the Pakistanis) were being conceded talks, they could have it(Kashmir) all, so they went ahead with Kargil.

If it hadn`t been for Vajpayee holding firm and the Indian Army(and the intervention of Clinton) gaining back lost ground for India, and the whole country rallying behind the government during war, if it hadn`t been for that, the Indian public`s anger at Vajpayee for bringing on Kargil through Lahore would have put an end to Vajpayee`s political career in India. The BJP would have been driven out of power and the party`s fortunes would have been set back many years. So much for BJP`s `nationalism` and Vajpayee`s rightist positions.

This is also reality that the Indian state has shown it can concede the devolution of power or concede new structures for devolution to its own citizens to satisfy their political aspirations or settle dissaffection, but no Indian government will tamely sign away sovereignty, definitely not under the threat of guns. Vajpayee may have managed to pull it off due to his stature in the excitement of Lahore, but no more. And forget about Sonia Gandhi as India`s first Italian-born Prime Minister being able to concede sovereignty either.

As for the US, it doesnot mind fishing in troubled Indo-Pak waters. It will also not mind having a foothold in Kashmir for itself. Any realism or final solution from the Pakistani side wrt India will mean US can no longer extract leverage from a big Muslim country Pakistan in support of the US`s own anti AlQaeda / domination of Arab-regions agenda. Currently the US is winking furiously at Kashmir-directed jihadic activity in Pakistan(and the N.Korea connection) for this reason. If we think US in its advice or actions has Pakistan`s or India`s interests at heart, we will be quite mistaken.

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To rsridhar and Sadna:

No matter what you say, hear this: Kashmir is still listed as a disputed territory with the UN. Its for Kashmiris to decide what they wish for their own good. Entire world is telling India to start the dialogue with Pakistan to resolve all the outstanding issues (which basically refers to only 1 issue that is Kashmir).

And btw, Kashmiris want to join with Pakistan.

:)

re:#153 by SaimaShah
I will not waste bandwidth by giving you a long post on Kashmir. My answer is simple: Pakistan does not have a ``locus standi`` in the case. If Pakis are emotional about Kashmir, then my advice to them is: get over it. Be rational not emotional. Heck, you guys fritted away what was legitimately yours (Bangladesh) and now covet a piece of land that is not legitimately yours. Now, I know what you will say. Kashmir does not belong to India either but to Kashmiris. That argument is lost in the vortex of realpolitik. Pak`s dictator would be wise to realise the realities on ground and act what is in the best interest of Pakistan (which is not necessarily the same as army`s).
Sridhar

To arjun_m at # 162

They are living in former communist, pro-soviet and pro-India Tajik controlled Afghanistan, speicifically Kabul. The same bunch of people are shown interviewed on CNN and BBC. Not even once has any one from Pushtoon population been interviewed.

All Pushtoons and farsi speaking Hazaras and Shias are with Pakistanis. Lots of my friends have traveled to Afghanistan recently and they have reported the same. Pushtoons have reservations against General Musharraf, but they are strongly aligned with Pakistanis. Reason is religious and economic affinities. So I am confident and Pakistanis are confident about this.

Once the coalition forces desert Afghanistan after failing to control Pushtoon-Hazara rebellion (pessimistic scenario) or introduce democracy there (optimistic scenario) the control will be back with Pakistan-Iran backed Pushtoons, Hazaras and Farsi speaking Shias. Extreme minorities of `Sunni` Tajiks and Uzbeks will retrieve peacefully to their own respective small provinces.

Btw, just out of curiosity, are Jay and you twins?

re:sadna

Sadna, what you are saying in effect implies that both Pakistanis and Indians should buy the rightist Government line. They should cease trying to find common ground, they should give up hope for a better future? Is India flawless? Has India not picked fights? quite obvious to anyone, no.

The blame game that I talked about in the article, persists here as well. And please note that it is not just I who notices the biases--but others too (journalists from both India and Pakistan have pointed the many incorrect stories that are reported in large newspapers in India). The Kashmir problem and sectarian violence has been named by Clinton too as one of the things threatening the hard work that common Indians have been putting into the country to make it a global power.

As for the administrative side to a plural political identity--that is for Indians to figure out how much power they want to devolve to the State level and whether or not they want a central govt and how much power should it have. My job was to point out the obvious failures in the development of the identity of the nation state. When being Indian means hating Pakistan and vice versa, how can war be prevented, how can this region become stable?

Let`s not resort to this pettiness--the very subject of my article was the lack of a positive attitude visavis dialogue.

re: Harimau

India is the greatest...happy?

Let us see what it is that Saima suggests.

Having failed in its military adventures and the War-of-a-Thousand-Cuts to wrest Kashmir away from India, Saima would now like India to be **nice** to Pakistan. In fact, she wants India to come to some agreement on Kashmir with Pakistan.

Pray tell us, what would be an acceptable solution to Kashmir. Would it be handing over the Valley to Pakistan? That won`t happen. If it is Kashmiri Independence, that won`t happen either; we aren`t going to create another country for Sino-Pak-US intrigue on our borders.

All you who are getting misty-eyed at the thought of **inclusive** nations in South Asia should recognize that India is the **only** inclusive nation there, Bangladesh being a close second, Pakistan being nowhere in the game.

As to Pakistanis telling Indians to control Hindutva-jihadis, that is like Satan quoting the scriptures: we don`t need any lessons from Pakistan **until** Pakistan curbs its jihadis. In case you didn`t read the newspapers, Karzai of Afghanistan wants cross-border incursions stopped and he meant the infiltration from Pakistan into Afghanistan, not Kashmir. So it seems like you have a foreign policy of running with the hares and hunting with the hounds, something not likely to sit well with Uncle Sam.

Face it, India plans to dominate everything south of the Himalayas, That means Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Sri Lanka, and Maldives are going to be under the thumb of India for the rest of their lives. You all have the choice of being like Canada to the US or Mexico to the US. You have the further choice of El Salvador, Honduras or Panama as models. China can stick it up its rear-end if it wants to interfere in South Asia so don`t go looking for China`s support.

Face reality. Just be happy that India hasn`t spent $10 billion to construct LPG terminals at Bandar Abbas and Bombay and to buy a few LPG carriers from Japan so that you can continue dreaming of a pipeline some day through Pakistan. We are more likely to get natural gas out of Bangladesh than have a pipeline through Pakistan.

No, India doesn`t **have** to do anything about its neighbors until they fall in line and behave.

ahmadzai #161
Which reservation would you say is `unnecessary`? Just curious?

RE Siachen, there have been enough posts on chowk showing India might have been there second. In any case, a game of exclusion once started, can be played by both.

In any case hope you realise, finally its not for Pakistanis to decide which reservation of Indians is `unnecessary` for Indians. Just like Pakistan has been pursuing its Kashmir policy according to its own best interest, so can India pursue a policy according to its(including JK`s) best interests. India cannot be generous to Pakistanis while hurting its own citizens.

In this pursuit of their best interests, ordinary Pakistanis cannot ignore some things:

Pakistani Army would LOVE to be in J&K. With a foothold there, it can intefere with Indian control over the rivers of the region, and keep testing India`s control over regions like Jammu and Ladakh. In other words, a small foothold for Pakistan through Kashmir valley will be a giant leap in territorial control for Pakistan Army. Which Army will not like to win territory?

As you also said, they have tried before three times and failed. Has the Pakistani Army`s attitude really changed now? Or now they want through talk what they couldnot get through war. Is India so stupid? And with such high stakes, its very well worth it for Army dictators who do not practice at home what they preach to others, to talk piously of freedom struggles, of UN resolutions, of human rights, of principled stands of peace and the great big WE.

Unfortunately Saima and ahmadzai are not the only ones in the India-Pakistan equation. Indians are not taken in by the above pious talk of Pakistani establishment, or by Pakistani moderates knowingly or unknowingly in their idealism, acting as softspoken `reasonable` front office for back office business run by Army agenda and violent religious fanatics for their often-stated goals of pure land grab.

Secondly for a long time, the pious talk hasnot matched actions. The disaffection of some section of Kashmiris for India is no excuse for Pakistani/Pakistani-armed jihadis to kill other Kashmiris indiscriminately, often also Muslim. Its no excuse for jihadis to attack civilians in other parts of India. And as long as India`s soldiers are under attack, no Indian leader(or any leader anywhere in the world) can ask them not to fight back, for any talk of peace.

India can (and did) declare a ceasefire for the benefit of disaffected armed KASHMIRIS (allow them to give up violence, listen to their demands and help them get back into mainstream), but NOT for the benefit of armed Pakistanis. India even held elections to allow Kashmiris of many inclinations to get elected through popular support for their various agendas, and even here Pakistan tried to sabotage their process and jihadis went to the extent of killing candidates and threatening voters.

As for furthering the Pakistan`s own ideological/ political agenda in J&K, like in Afghanistan, and in Pakistan, the Pakistani establishment had/has no clue how to do it.

So like it did in Afghanistan, and has done in Pakistan, the Pakistani Army has backed a `front organisation` of paid off supporters, called the Hurriyat Conf. who refuse to demonstrate mass base, whose merit is that they speak for Pakistan`s interests and propped up by the violence of armed religious extremists.


Lord Avebury who was given a high honor (Nishan-e-Pakistan?) by Pakistan for his support of the `Kashmiri cause` said after a visit to Indian J&K that he was not at all impressed with the Hurriyat or the `freedom movement` for this reason.(Do you want a reference to his statements?). He was not impressed with the violence of jihadis either. His organisation commissioned a survey last year, and it was found that J&Kashmiris were not impressed either.


There is no single leader or movement in J&K which has been broadbased across all religious and community boundaries articulating a single vision for Kashmir. Even JKLF was Muslim, though it professed itself secular and since it was seeking independence was quashed by the Pakistani Army. Anyone and his uncle is encouraged to fight jihad in Kashmir, including John Walker Lindh from California. In short, listening to Pakistan on J&Kashmir doesnot necessarily translate to furthering the best interests of J&Kashmiris.

In conclusion, Pakistan has no case for changing status quo except threats of violence, to which India has now decided not to yield and increasing the scope of violence, eg by restarting the Khalistan movement as Pakistan is reportedly attempting, also will not help.

A total change in Pakistani security establishment`s attitude toward India and its own place in the world is welcome and should be encouraged by India, as it tried in Lahore and Agra, but Kargil and post Sept 11 have proved there is no such change in attitude. .

PS: re OIC, India and Pakistan, I had read an interview (in the last few months), with a former Indian Ambassador to Portugal?, a Sikh gentleman who was present at the meeting in question along with other Indians(Muslims Indians). I will try to dig it up.

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Sadna at # 158:

Perhaps Saima has given up after too many of your unnecessary reservations. But I would like to take the opportunity to ask and clarify certain things from you:

You wrote that, ``Pakistanis also need to think about whether the 1965 war and Kargil conflict were about expanding the WE?``

My response:
Why anchor on Kargill and 1965 when we only attempted, and like you are suggesting, failed? How about a sneaky expanding the WE by India in Siachin in 1984? I would definitely like to hear from you on Siachin.

Should we continue to look back or move on here to a better future?

You wrote, ``Whether their Army and security apparatus was involved in Afghanistan and is involved in J&K purely for the reason Saima says, that is to include India in a big WE?``

My response:
According to an article written by M.J. Akbar of India in late 2001, Pakistan`s position was generally accepted by the West for as long as the Jihadis were active, India was trying to come to the table. Their PM visited Lahore, Pakistan`s President was invited to India, and India even attempted to broker a deal with HM.

Do note that as soon as Kashmiris decided to wage a peaceful movement, India went back to its original headstrong position.

Finally you said,``And where does India fit into the big WE for Pakistan, which threatened to leave the OIC if India was given membership on account of Indian Muslims?``

My response: What is the source of this information? Could you kindly refer me to that?

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PS to Saima
Pakistanis also need to think about whether the 1965 war and Kargil conflict were about expanding the WE?

Whether their Army and security apparatus was involved in Afghanistan and is involved in J&K purely for the reason Saima says, that is to include India in a big WE?

And where does India fit into the big WE for Pakistan, which threatened to leave the OIC if India was given membership on account of Indian Muslims?

Well, I had planned to respond to Sadna`s posts at # 152, but after reading Saima`s response at # 153, I thought whatever I had in my mind would be dwarfed. Suffice is to say whereas Saima is talking about optimism, participation, pluralism and creativity to solving the problem, I would have delved into a doom and gloom picture that I normally see for this region in the long-term range in case India and Pakistan don`t bridge our differences.

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SaimaShah #153
``I ask that if India respects the desires of its neighbour, wont it grow bigger rather than smaller? borders are not just on land but in our perceptions of us and them. Let us include each other in a great big WE. What is the harm? ``


The desires of the neighbour for J&Kashmir stem from EXCLUDING each other in a great big WE, namely from TNT and Partition, going by the justifications given at all levels of Pakistani activism in J&K. Musharraf and other Pakistani leaders/opinionmakers and other Pakistanis keep harking back to Partition and talking of J&K as the `unfinished business of Partition`. Jihadis keep talking of driving out the infidels, as if J&K doesnot have composite culture of Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims and Buddhists.

All you folks, India respected the wishes of the neighbour and agreed to Partition. Neighbour desires even more. Sorry, but Partition was the final settlement, now go home! It is only the desires of J&Kashmiris and Indian Muslims that India needs to care about now.

Pakistan`s desire for Kashmir date back to Independence when Hindu and Muslim majority areas were going their separate ways and 2 million died as consequence who happened to be living in their ancestoral homes like everyone else but were excluded from the WE.

Why are the sacrifices of those 2 million not being respected by Pakistan which persists in stoking the same fires even 57 years later? ahmadzai`s point out Pakistan losing out not due to Muslim-Muslim affinity but due to economic reasons is also flawed. India has almost or as many Muslims as Pakistan.

Kashmiris are not the only Muslims in India, and Indian Muslims` future, safety and security are also part of the stakes for India. It is obviously not so for Pakistan, its obvious from the fact that Pakistanis talk so casually of the need for India to break up.

Where is the concept of WE coming from Pakistan in all this?

re: sadna #146

Of-course the suggestion is on the assumption that India wants to resolve the issue to bring peace and prosperity to the region...and wants to maintain the plurality of the various communities in South Asia...

the background is in this article and various arguments put forward supporting the need to democratize that region of the world.
to summarize:

The idea that Pakistan is a community of people, not a demon. And the idea that India is a community of people, not a demon.

That they stand to gain mutually more than apart.

That Pakistan and India share each other`s histories

That the historical governance of South Asia suited its plural culture

That any attempt to destroy diversity is tunnel vision.

That Pakistan holds Kashmir sacred and that perception cannot be changed by India`s army, which worsens the conflict, but through an active future oriented strategy that includes Pakistan. The realisation that Kashmir is not a piece of land to kill and be killed over, but a responsibility for BOTH countries. Once both realise that the Kashmiri does NOT need to be conquered but must to be included in decisions that impact him or her. Than and only than can we avert war and secure a better future for our children. Theoretically, India can do this on its own...but I think it would have better success if Pakistan is included for the time being. Over time, as ahmedzai says, the economics would rule. Meanwhile it would help diffuse a lot of bad blood and forge ties that have been sundered with each war. Ties that fundamentalists on both sides would not be able to break.

People who have grown in Pakistan have seen what tunnels look like--a long dark suffocating path that promises an ever elusive greatness.

you mentioned once that we can be plural even inside the nations of Pakistan and India. I ask that if India respects the desires of its neighbour, wont it grow bigger rather than smaller? borders are not just on land but in our perceptions of us and them. Let us include each other in a great big WE. What is the harm?

ahmadzai #147
You are right about how Indian and Pakistani viewpoints differ.

``let us replace everything in terms of `India and Pakistan` by `3rd parties``

Sorry to be pesky but the difference you point out goes even further, because it can again be asked why India would agree to a 3rd party getting a foothold in Indian J&K?

Even during the recent J&K elections, international observers from a number of countries were certainly present to assess the elections for themselves but India didnot grant them any extraconstitutional `accrediting` /`vetoing` powers over its own constitutional election process.

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Saima and Sadna:

In response to Saima`s creativity unleashed in long post # 145, we have Sadna`s concerns in a brief and terse one at # 146.

These two posts also bring out the difference between Pakistanis` viewpoint and that of Indians. Whereas Pakistanis are over-concerned about the plight of Kashmiris, Indians have nightmares if Kashmir is to secede from that. For India, secession spells a chain of disintegration.

Samina, I agree with you, but because of Sadna`s concern, let us replace everything in terms of `India and Pakistan` by `3rd parties`. So for example, one of your paragraphs will change to:

`Kashmir in my opinion is a truly porous border--the problem can be resolved if both countries allow 3rd party monitoring of Kashmiri borders. Under 3rd party facilitation it buys and trades with all the countries. Neither country should be allowed to buy property here. However displaced Kashmiris may be encouraged to move back and build a life again. Tourism must be promoted again. Facilitating countries can invest in kashmir vis a vis hotels, other infrastructure. `

But I don`t think that Indians will even agree to this as they have their own internal compulsions (e.g. elections all the time). And India can wait for eternity to do any thing positively about resolving the issue.

Pressure will be on our Governments, as we have too much of aspiration about Kashmiris joining us. Problem is that due to our own economic instability, we should wait for the right moment too.

My action plan for achieving what you have said:

1. India should agree to dialogue for nothing can be resolved unless both the parties come to the table, including Indian claim that Pakistan is involved in cross-border terrorism.

2. First priority on the matter of alleged cross-border infiltration through mutually agreed methodology - joint patrolling as suggested by you or by 3rd party (UN, USA, etc.), as has been suggested by Pakistan.

3. Kashmiris to reunite and Kashmir to be opened up for investment, etc. under 3rd party much like Bosnia, Kosova, Afghanistan. India would enjoy the advantage that all economic lines run from Kashmir to India, not to Pakistan so the latter will not have much say in Kashmir in any case.

4. Over a long-term period, Kashmiris will themselves forge various alliance(s) with India, Pakistan and/or other countries, depending upon their own preferences, needs and what other countries can offer them. Example is, although not a perfect one, Afghanistan. That country is now approaching other countries (Pakistan, India, Iran, etc.) that can benefit it the most.

Saima:

Having proposed a most advantageous plan for India, I believe that this still would not be acceptable to it for its inherent guilt on the matter.

The biggest advantage for India would be that in the present day people and countries do not make decisions on the basis of religion alone. The key word is economy. In Kashmir, If the `farq is unnees bees ka ho jaey gaa to faida musalman Pakistan ko hay`, but in case of information technology and 4 wheel drives for example, `koi Kashmiri Pakistan ko contract naheen day jaey gaa sirf hamaray musalman honay ka wajah say`.

In this case, if Pakistan would like to influence Kashmiris, then it would be for us to prove through our economic potential to do so. Only religion will not feed and bring prosperity to Kashmiris. Yes, in only fair situation where both the parties are almost balanced the advantage may go to religious co-practitioners.

Ref SaimaShah #145

[I wonder if pakistanis can buy property or invest in india?...hmm]

Can`t buy property. You have to be an Indian citizen to buy land, buildings, etc. Investments are OK as foreign investments are allowed.

Ask the other question: can Indians other than Kashmiris buy property in Kashmir (Jammu and Ladakh included)? The answer is `No`. Just India`s way of preserving the unique Kashmiri culture. Right now, one has to be crazy to want to buy in Kashmir unless your plans are for the real long term.

Jay wrote at # 140:

``Ahmedzai, this chap is your friend, he has not heard of the famous words, if you are not with us, you are against us. He also has not heard of the condom anology of pakistan. He has no idea of pak history, ayub days of u2 flights and hand outs from the US, then with china where you got nothing of course the bomb, then with saudi to name faisalabad, again with the US now. Ahmadzai, tell this fellow pakistani about options for a very old and tired well you know who.``

I really admire these points poignantly driven home. Perhaps Afridi Saheb will not be interested in listening to me today as he may be more interested in the performance of Shahid Afridi. But a detailed post from me on this aspect for all the Pakistanis will follow. Rest assured on this one :)

In the meantime however, a suggestion is in order here for Jay too:

Because of your tendency to look at history of Pakistan (i.e. passive behavior) and your se*tual innuendoes every now and then, kindly consider replacing 1st letter of your name `J` by letter `G`.

;)

SaimaShah #145

The question you should ask yourself is why should India agree to give Pakistan ANY foothold in Indian J&K, even in an enquiry committee ?

re: ahmedzai

let`s monitor the LOC. All deaths in Kashmir will have a joint inquiry by a committee formed by apolitical people. NPOs, organizations like amnesty international, human rights watch, UN, with both Pakistani and Indian citizens--a sort of joint jury which is interested but impartial. Pakistanis will nominate Indian people who appy for that posts and Indians can choose Pakistanis. That way biases from both sides will be eliminated.

The jury will be provided 24 hour protection. And their identities will be released later after the initial period of organization.

The inquiry will be publicly conducted i.e., a website will be used to inform people about the various stages in the inquiry. There will be a step by step procedure followed in the inquiry. Documentation of witnesses, identity papers etc. Dead bodies will be post-mortemed and ensured that relatives identify them. The faces of the dead and the militants will be made public. Their particulars including names should appear in the papers and on that website.

This inquiry committee should stay in force for a period of 3-6 years. This inquiry should be made the basis for future governance in that area. Kashmir in my opinion iis a truly porous border--the problem can be resolved if both countries join hands. Kashmir in essence would belong to neither India nor Pakistan, instead it might become a jointly managed area that buys and trades with both countries and both protect against violence. Neither country should be allowed to buy property here. However displaced Kashmiris may be encouraged to move back and build a life again. Tourism must be promoted again. Both Governments can invest in kashmir visavis hotels, other infrastructure. let`s compete indeed--fair and square!

ps. I wonder if pakistanis can buy property or invest in india?...hmm

pps: can u imagine the politicians even daring to resolve the problem? they will probably die rather than do something visionary like this. what fools we and what utter @#$%$## they are. Something so obvious and so progressive is buried underground by this me muslim you hindu bs.

Oº°‘¨ Turkey`s strategy & Pakistan ¨‘°ºO

It is shameful that some political elements like Jamaat e Islaami in Pakistan opposed America`s attack on Afghanistan claiming it to be a matter of principals, and exploited that stance to the maximum in the general elections, but also say that it would`ve been acceptable if Pakistan had made a deal of monetary help. This is a direct expression of willingness to sell principals for money.

Pakistan`s stance in the war against Taleban certainly was a matter of principles. It is now time for the ISI and Pakistani Government to realize that their policy on Afghanistan was amoral and illegal, and has completely failed. Pakistan has not only managed to end up being hijacked by numerous armed terrorists-for-sale that are now working for Arab and Indian agencies and organizations against Pakistan, but also secluded itself in the International Community and has completely lost its dignity and integrity.

It was time for Pakistan to give up terrorism and start following the principles of humanity (and religion). Pakistan should do that without any greed for any material reward. The biggest reward for Pakistan is the change in its stance!!!

Do not forget however:

- Pakistan`s ForEx reserves increased from a worth of 2 weeks of imports, to 10 billion, that is worth one year of imports because of Pakistan`s stance based on principles.

- The change in the foriegn policy will eventually, due to foriegn pressure, bring a change in the relationship of the government with the private armies. This will make it easier for the Interior Ministry to control secterian voilence.

- Once the private armies are disbanded, a better situation of law and order will open gates for foriegn investments, those of the overseas Pakisanis, to start with.

- The foriegn pressure to stick to anti-war and anti-terrorism policy will eventually result in the control and ultimate removal of the pro-war philosophy from the government controlled compulsory high school syllabus, and that will go a long way in the moderation of the society.

- The presence of FBI in Pakistan for a long period will make sure that the government is under pressure to crack down against the private armies, and the presence of American troops in Pakistan will be a deterrence against military attack, less importanty by India, and more Importantly by private Islamic armies.

I am a Pakistani from the urban middle class. My concerns are safety, freedom, and prosperity. I`d rather literally become an American colony, than be ruled by a democratic fundamentalist government, who can not protect me and my religious beliefs, and stops me from celebrating Basant. I think just anybody has stronger humanitarian values than the politicians who are feeding on my blood, looting my country to the maximum, and making me pay the money as bills.

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India is a status quo power. Regardless of its current public stance, India will gladly agree to turning the LOC into a permanent international border. It is Pakistan that feels that it must acquire the entire Jammu & Kashmir to ``finish the unfinished business of partition.``

Pakistan`s ruling elite has a vested interest to paint India as the eternal enemy of Pakistan. It will continue to do so even if India were to aquiesce to the permanent exile of all residents of Jammu & Kashmir whose ethnicity, ideology or faith does not meet the approval of Pakistan`s ruling elite and even if India were to hand over the entire state of Jammu & Kashmir on a platter to Pakistan.

When Pakistan`s military swears by:
(1) the ``martial race theory``
(2) asserts that one Pakistani soldier can take care of ten ``Hindu`` soldiers or,
(3) promises compatriots that they will unfurl Pakistan`s flag at the Red Fort,
it does so, not because it believes in the bluster, but because that makes it easier for the military to usurp a disproportionate share of the country`s wealth for the Kakul kleptocrats.

In real life, Pakistan`s military has always been far tougher on its own citizens, most of them unarmed, than on armed soldiers of ``enemy`` countries. Thus, General Tikka Khan is far better known to the world as the Butcher of Bengal and as the Butcher of Balochistan than as the Knight in shining armor who will ride his big white horse to the Red Fort to unfurl Pakistan`s flag.

When Pakistan`s military breathes fire, it is to ``prove`` to Pakistani citizens that the military is indispensable to the nation`s welfare. But this is nothing but a fraud because the primary aim is to make sure that Pakistan`s army can continue steal a disproportinate share of the country`s wealth for itself.

I have no reason to believe that Pakistan`s ruling elite cares any more for justice in Jammu & Kashmir than it cares for justice for the residents in Pakistan itself or for justice to the ``Biharis`` left to rot in refugee camps for 3 decades.

Those that had preached, ``Haske liya Pakistan, ladke lenge Hindustan,`` on the morrow of independence, those that continue to preach, ``One Pakistani soldier is more than ten ``Hindu`` soldiers,`` will not change their tune or stance even if Jammu & Kashmir is handed over to them on a platter. They have a strong need to have India as an enemy country to justify the usurption of a disproportionate share of the nation`s wealth for themselves.

Pakistan`s military lobby was strong enough to force the break-away of the majority of Pakistanis in 1971 in order to preserve its own interest in the rest of the country. Today, it is just as determined to perpetuate conflict with India and for the very same reason. Jammu & Kashmir is merely the most convenient excuse at the moment. But, in its absence, it won`t take long for Pakistan`s military to find yet another excuse.

But there is a limit to what the people will tolerate. And when the Kakul kleptocrats exhausted the patience of the long suffering ordinary citizens of Pakistan, the Tsunami of their wrath did not spare even the Ayub Khans and the Yahya Khans. It will not spare Pervez Musharraf either.

Religion is a delima of this region (pak/ind). Religion and ideology can b ecredited for preserving status quo here. Pakistanis have more sacred cows than their indian/hindu counterparts do - trust me, this doesnt make us any superior.

You cannot disturb status quo. or may be you can, if you are willing to pay theprice. As it turns out, most of us are not ready. So the best we can do is try to get absorbed into this status quo. If we can get our share of the loot, we have no problem with it. If we cannot get our share, we turn red.

Freedom of thought and expression is what we should have fought for in this part of the world. Instead, we fought for LAND (a four letter word). We are still fighting for it. We have competed far too long. Today, people in india and pakistan are more disoriented than at any time in the history.

If we continue to do what we have always done, we will have more of what we already have. If we like what we have in pakistan, lets continue on this path. Think about it.

Turkey`s strategy & Pakistan



Turkey`s resistance to the deployment of US forces against Iraq and the condition of a pre-war economic package being set by its government show the dynamic strategy of its foreign policy.

Despite the increasing pressure from America, Turkey has remained consistent in its demands. It is likely to eventually concede to the deployments of American troops, but the final decision will compensate Turkey for war-related losses.

The Gulf war of 1991, which cost Turkey $40 billion, and the American failure to assist it to meet its losses have made the Turkish government cautious.

Why was the same strategy not adopted by Pakistan soon after the 9/11 incidents when it was asked to allow its bases to be used against Afghanistan? Pakistan could have made a demand for the write-off of its huge burden of foreign debts which have been a stagnant and unresolved problem.

If Pakistan had demanded of the US economic aid for extending full support to the latter in its war against the Taliban government, it, too, would have made a successful deal.

MOHAMMAD TARIQ AFRIDI

Karachi

////Ahmedzai, this chap is your friend, he has not heard of the famous words, if you are not with us, you are against us. He also has not heard of the condom anology of pakistan. He has no idea of pak history, ayub days of u2 flights and hand outs from the US, then with china where you got nothing of course the bomb, then with saudi to name faisalabad, again with the US now. Ahmadzai, tell this fellow pakistani about options for a very old and tired well you know who.

#136 by Studebaker on February 27, 2003 9:28pm PT

[Rajasthan Gujrat ,East Punjab has had borders with Pakistan for 54yrs]

The Rajasthan border is blessed by virtue of having a natural obstacle in the Thar desert, and moreover it is populated overwhelmingly by Hindus. You Pakis have nothing there to exploit. Gujarat also has the Rann of Kutch that has protected it greatly.

[The only Jehadi in Gujrat is artificially created on paper with NO evidence .There has been none in Punjab & Rajasthan]

What then were the ones that burnt the train compartment at Godhra? Sufis? And do you forget the fact that you supported the Khalistan movement in Punjab?

Veeresh at # 134:

RED ALERT: This is a long post.

PTV World is equivalent of Indian Doordarshan. I don`t know why should we be watching it in the first place to have an independent assessment of any boiling situation? Even Pakistanis don`t watch PTV World. ARY Digital, Indus Vision, Geo and others are providing trustworthy alternatives.

A better way to deal with extreme positions coming out of Indian and Pakistani media and Government would be to make the use of averages and find that truth is conveniently located some where in between (or we can take the moving averages by absorbing news from all sources and applying a FOS).

For example, If Indian media/Government claims that Kashmir insurgency is because of 100% Pakistani intervention and Pakistan says that there is no cross-border infilteration then perhaps the truth is half-way in between i.e. most of the insurgency is due to local Kashmiris (70% is a good figure to accept given by Advanee himself some two years ago at the time of a temporary ceasefire between HM and Indian military), but 30 % may be crossing into India from Pakistan.

Now at least there is some thing to work on. A biased Pakistani mindset will tell us that ok 30% infilteration is taking place, which the Government is not able to control, but is not supporting as well. So how to go about it? On the other hand an Indian mind will give him a 70% figure to work on internally. For the 30% the two sides can work together e.g. by allowing 3rd party to monitor LOC.

Other problems can be dealt with in the similar manner.

That is why I believe that this article is very well written and gives an excellent suggestion for getting out of tunnel vision. I believe that lot of creativity will be required to achieve this objective.

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veeresh #126
Thanks for the info. Lets hope for the time to come soon when the Army is absolutely NOT used for any internal issue. Until such a time, IMO we can`t really claim anything about anything.

AhmedZai # 129 . . . you got a point there. Main source for Indians perceptions about info on Pakistan:-

a) language services of BBC, CNN, etc., which tend to play up the extra-ordinary aspects of the Hindu-Muslim divide for example. (Titillation or perversity or systematic?) On the other hand, I have never heard of a PTV or DD or Star/Zee/AajTak programme investigating on behalf of Indo-Pak Catholics about Protestants shafting them in Ireland. Or, how about India & Pakistan jointly sponsoring tough questions at UN about Diego Garcia, Gan, Isle de Kerguelen . . .? So, own goal.

b) many Indians do tend to confuse the dirtier environs of mosques = old city areas with that of what they would perceive Pakistan to be. Unfortunately there aren`t too many ``modern`` mosques in India of the sort seen in UAE/Saudia etc. I have always wondered why, especially since temples, gurudwaras and churches seem to be keeping up with the times.

c) PTV while channel surfing is so dull. That is not our fault. Anycase PTV keeps harping on and on and on about Kashmir. So, to most Indians, Pakistan is like an appendage to Kashmir. Seriously, reasonably intelligent people have asked me how I knew Pakistan shippies, where did they have a coast?

d) Pakistani movies and plays on video tend to be of a particular ``chaaap`` if you get what I mean? Again, not our fault. Most of them have loud people making faces. Admitted this custs both ways.

e) The political news emanating from Pakistan is often militarised. That really REALLY impacts perception.

f) Wasim Akram teaches Ashish Nehra how to bowl faster/better. Kirti Azad ex-cricketer is hardcore BJP type but has a great friendship with Javed Miandad and does liaison for Pakistan Cricket team in India. This sort of thing never comes out. TV will only replay shots of cricketers threatening each other on the field, right?

g) The BSF/Rangers sunset ceremonies at Wagah/Attari have now been televised so frequently that people believe in the theatrics there. Who goes to whose club at the border in the evenings is never discussed.

h) Two main issues on which Indians will draw positions about Pakistan are:-

# status of women . . . all we see is Mokhtarma this and that walking up in full head-dress and more to receive awards from grim generals in ill fitting suits or female Oxbridge types yapping in clipped accents. Where are the lusty rural class women, other than sufi singers?
# freedom of speech . . . where is that? Again, PTV to blame?

I mean, if we in India think of Pakistan in a particular way, then whose job is it to try to amend perceptions? Not many people read Indian Express.

I think tv has a great role to play. So do expats. More on that eventually . . .

Hello--

does anybody know someone who was asked to leave USA due to overstay etc during the INS registration ? If u think they might want to give an interview to a US University researcher, can u please post a message to saima@chowk.com? thanks very much.

Dear Saima Shah,

Almost everybody in the middle class that dominates the urban society of the subcontinent, is directly responsible for what is known to be the public opinion, and is either a silent nonconformist or a loud conformist. You are an exception. An exception in a society whose politics is mischief, whose philosophy is forgery, and whose intellectuals have no voice. You are a reformer. A weak nation weakens its strong men. I pray for your strength.

Educate, and remember my words, education does not sow the seeds, it only helps the seeds find a way to grow. You give a voice to the silent. I am silent too, but behind you!

Sadna:

Some separatist movements in India that I could find out since BBC`s coverage of Nagaland can be read at:

http://adaniel.tripod.com/separate.htm

Those that have made the news recently are from:

1. Nagaland, 2. Tripura, 3. Kashmir, 4. Indian Punjab, 5. Assam

But the purpose of my mentioning the Naga movement was not to score browny points, but was an answer to Sadna`s question to Samina.

Jay at #127:

My answer to your long post is simple one.

You are questioning the veracity of western media on my information, yet all the Pakistan related information you have provided has come either from the western or the Indian media.

Why Pakistani newspapers are full of killing information is because of the three aspects:

1. Sensationalization,

2. Sensationalization and

3. Sensationalization

And as to your last para: ``This is the fundamental asymetry of the pak and indian world view. A society that can accept tye killigs by average pakistani, make it legal and call the killers shaheeds and honor killers, has no right to talk about peace with its neighbours. ``

This applies equally to India. You only have to read articles by your own writers on the extremist and fundamentalist direction India has taken. You know who I am referring to.

Veeresh at # 113 and Sadna at # 124 & 125:

Thank you for the details on Nagaland.

I admit that BBC and CNN were my only sources of information and I admit that my opinion was certainly biased due to their one sided stories.

However, my submission is that Indians should also note that their opinion on Pakistan is also biased in the following areas:

1. Pakistani (population 144 million) support for Talibans.

2. Talibans oppression of women and that Northern Alliance, or for that matter, the US forces, have freed the women from that oppression.

3. Shia-Sunni strife in Pakistan, which is mob oriented and that every body is against each other.

4. All Pakistanis are going to Seminaries and then heading straight to Indian held Kashmir.

5. All Pakistani Muslims are extremist Jihadis.

and so on and so forth.

light at the end of tunnel

ISLAMABAD – Pakistan has hoped that the United States would substantially increase its aid package during the next financial year and said that Islamabad’s economy is in a position to face fall-out of the situation obtaining in the Middle East.
“Pakistan appreciates US decision to write off US $ one billion bilateral debt,” said Shaukat Aziz, Prime Minister’s Advisor on Finance, in a meeting with Frederick W. Schieck, Deputy Administrator USAID, currently visiting Pakistan here on Wednesday.
Citing the challenges, Shaukat Aziz said that Pakistan has achieved economic sovereignty and is in a position to face economic fall-out of the situation obtaining in the Middle East.
He also appreciated US $ 310 million aid package during the current financial year and hoped that the Government of United States would substantially increase this amount for the next financial year.
Pakistan also proposed technical assistance to train and orient customs officers to effectively control narcotics trafficking, smuggling of arms and goods.

/// This is a spectacular achievement for a country created for islam, surviving on hand outs from a country which rest of the muslims consider as anti islam. At last the pakistanis seem to be accepting that book, a mere tearing of a page from it can invite killings or prosecution under blasphemy laws cannot be eaten. A nation that has denied its history has no roots falls victim to the slightest temptaion of money and will vote for attack on a fellow muslim country.

Sadna # 125 and others . . . well, since I do know a bit about this subject . . . Phizo`s son chose to go to NDA & then became a pilot with the IAF, retiring from Transports, Phizo`s daughters and nieces married Indian Armed Forces officers and others, and distances apart, I think the Naga issue is now more ``internal Naga`` than with the State.

Will this happen with Jammu & Kashmir? I think so, economically the State seems to be recovering if property prices and automobile sales are indications. J&K Bank is amongst the most efficient banks in India, all over India, on par with the foreign banks. The integration of the displaced Kashmiri over most of India is now an accepted fact of life, especially in the hill stations and other tourist spots, for the simple reason that the Kashmiris do seem to know how to look after tourists. The Railway Line should be up and running into Srinagar by 2004/5 . . .

Meanwhile . . .

Ahmedzai 91,

`` The media claimed that 60 to 70,000 Pakistanis were fighting along side Talibans. If the media says that most were slaughtered then this huge numbers could not have gone unnoticed by Human Right organizations.``

Wish you the best for your trust in the western media. How many iraqis were killed in the kauwait war. None, it was just a video game. The shattered tanks and military vehicles did not contain any humans. This is in fact points to the fundamental and irrecocilabe difference between india and pakistan. Thousands of pakistanis can be killed, and no one cares. The kargill invasion, the 2000 killed in india was enough to change the indian view towards pakistan, hopefully permanently. In pakistan no one was killed, no one got a burial with military honours, they died in disgrace.

What pakistan as a society has achieved in the last 50 years is the trivialisation human life, the crime has shot up, the sectarian violence, the honour killings, the kidnappings and all of pakistanis can accept it as part of the jihad.

In pakistan there is no mob violence, it is carefully coordinated by the organisations supported by the average sayed pakistani. The collection boxes in every shops, the collections in the mosques, the millions at the annual lasker meetings. Look at the news reports, the killing reports dominate it, the progress report for the average pakistani about the fruitful spending of his contributions, the honouring of the people who responded to the jihadic calls on posters in every street corner.

This is the fundamental asymetry of the pak and indian world view. A society that can accept tye killigs by average pakistani, make it legal and call the killers shaheeds and honor killers, has no right to talk about peace with its neighbours.

Saima #101, ahmedzai #110
You might like to read this:

http://iecolumnists.expressindia.com/full_column.php?content_id=16405
India’s most important NRIs

``...There were times, notably during the 1962 war, when our army was abandoning much of Assam, when the Naga underground had an even greater number of men under arms than those of our army. If they so wished, they could have taken over the state then and declared sovereignty. That they did not do so, when Indian authority was represented by no more than a few battalions of the Madhya Pradesh Special Armed Police, is an intriguing fact.

This is precisely the question I once asked Scato Swu, a former acting president of the underground, when A.Z. Phizo, the founder of the rebellion, was in exile in London. During the state elections of 1982, I once hitched a ride with the venerable Swu, then a nominated member of Parliament. I asked him why did his people not take over in 1962 and declare independence.

“It’s funny, young friend, that you ask this questions. Indians usually do not even remember 1962. You know, your army had gone away and I had 10,000 men carrying automatic weapons. If only I had blown the whistle, Nagaland would have been ours,” he said.

“Precisely,” I said, “Why didn’t you do so? That opportunity will never come again. You’ve lost the fight for sovereignty.”

“Because that was the moment of truth. We had a series of meetings to think of our future as an independent republic. It was a great feeling. Then somebody said, see, the Indians will go, but the Chinese will be hereabouts.”

“But why would that be a problem?” I asked, “The Chinese were your allies and masters.”

“Yes,” he said. “But we had been to China, seen their system. We know what they had done to religion. Why were they going to be more tolerant of our Christianity? Here the Indian army had so many Christian officers who even came to our churches. All of us had been trained in Lhasa. We also knew what the Chinese had done to the Tibetans and their culture. Why were they going to be more kind to the Naga way of life?”

“You mean just when you could have got sovereignty you lost your nerve?” I taunted the wise old man.

“No. We Nagas are honourable, realistic and fair. We were fighting against you to preserve our tribal culture and identity, our way of life and Christianity. We had no blood feud with you. It just seemed that these might be better preserved in your shadow even without sovereignty than as an independent, but Chinese satellite state.” ..``



What Shekhar Gupta writes about the Naga movement in this column is applicable to the basic issue Saima raises, namely

``the idea of nation state for this plural culture that we share is completely FLAWED. There was some merit to the way things were run 200 years ago. The change to the nation state is too fast and doesnt work. ``


The answer is, we HAVE to make this pluralism work and it is incidental whether this pluralism exists within Indian nation- state boundaries, within Pakistani nation-state boundaries or across Indo-Pak boundaries.

We have to make this pluralism work, for the simple reason that there is no alternative.

Just as the separation of Pakistan as a solution to `unworkable` pluralism, (though a very worthwhile event, I hasten to add), helped the US gain a foothold in our region, separatism or new boundaries doesnot eliminate the need to pull together and to make our unique yet interlinked pluralism work, if we are to celebrate, preserve and protect it, particularly from being exploited and walked over, by the more powerful powers, like US, China, Saudi Arabia.

ahmadzai #110

I don`t know about that death toll(I couldn`t manage to find a figure anywhere). There are certainly Pakistan connections, which I search references too if you wish.


One thing to note is that in 1999 many of the brave Indian soldiers who died in Kargil were from the Naga Regiment. Also, the most unyielding Naga rebel faction finally held talks with the Indian govt. last month.


btw, if the following is true no wonder the BBC/British aren`t happy (I can`t say how reliable/unreliable this information is, because as far as I know La Rouche is an idiot)

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/1995/2241_ne_india_groups.html


``The British connection to the NSCN existed from the early days of Naga National Council. Phizo, the mentor of both factions of the NSCN, had led the charge against the Indian government, spearheading well-concerted guerrilla warfare. Phizo left Nagaland hiding in a coffin. He then turned up in Britain holding a Peruvian passport.

It is strongly suspected that the British Baptist Church, which is very powerful in Nagaland, is the contact between British intelligence and the NSCN terrorists operating on the ground.

British direct involvement continues. On Jan. 30, 1992, soldiers of the Assam Rifles arrested two British nationals along the Nagaland-Burma border. David Ward and Stephen Hill posed as members of British Broadcasting Corp. TV, and were travelling in jeeps with Naga rebels carrying arms. Subsequent interrogation revealed that both were operatives of Naga Vigil, a U.K.-based group. Both Ward and Hill claimed that they started the organization while in jail, influenced by Phizo`s niece. Both have served six-year prison terms for various crimes in Britain. Naga Vigil petitioned their release in the Guwahti High Court. Phizo`s niece, Rano Soriza, took up the issue with then-Nagaland Chief Minister Vamuzo..``


``..Also, NSCN reportedly received $1.7 million from the Pakistani Inter-Service Intelligence (ISI) to buy arms from Thailand and Singapore recently. No further detail on this transaction is available...``

``..Known controllers/mentors/theoreticians: The Naga separatist movement has always been controlled by British intelligence, through such organizations as Naga Vigil. Other connections are likely..``

---

Which are the rest of the seven? (I have read in Pakistani newspapers(and from other Pakistanis posts on chowk) that the number is thirteen, but noone has done us the favor of listing them).

#74 by ana_dobarah on February 25, 2003 6:18pm PT

[harimau...
there are those rare times when I actually like and agree with what you say....]

Rare times when you agree with moi? Here I am spouting facts, unassailable logic and irrefutable conclusions. Just because they challenge the average Pakistanis` worldview, how can you disagree with the truth?

[....having said that, it`s Farzana, F-A-R-Z-A-N-A. Not Farts Anna. come on guy...if you`re going to muck up names here, then why don`t you muck up the rest of our names while you`re at it?]

I do. Right now, the poster, rather the poseur, named Shankar is commonly called the Headshrinker or Ashit Urshit Dickshit (all three of them legitimate Hindu names) by me. The complete fraud known as Soysauce who is now mercifully absent from Chowk is usually called Sangilikkaruppan or Maasanamuthu, again common names from his part of India. Romair is affectionately known on the Chowk as Field Marshal. Ali_1 gets his name translated from Tamil into Eunuch #1. Tipu, Ashok, Studebaker, Sadhna, Androscoggin, Lajwanti, etc., etc., etc., is universally called 12-Head (even though he now has probably 24) or Hydra. In his incarnation as Studebaker, I call him Nova or Car-up-on-Blocks. He calls me Harami OU.

The self-deprecating and sweet semipreciousme is called wholly-precious-you by me. So it is not always a derogatory twist on their handles.

FartsAna deserves it for stinking up Chowk.

Ref Eunuch#1 #91

[Faced with a superior adversary and burning with impotent rage, Atal ``eunuch baba`` Vajpayee is an accurate representation of India, or rather the 800 million majority eunuch community of India.]

At least, Hindus don`t name their kids Ali (eunuch in Tamil).

[A recent question on a TV quiz show on PTV: Name the country where both the President and PM can`t get a boner?]

Try answering this question: Name the country where both the President and the Prime Minister get their a$$ reamed regularly by the US.

Ref Eunuch#1 #95

[Maybe they should legalize gay marriage right now in anticipation.]

Am I to conclude that after years of trying the gay bars in San Francisco, you still can`t get a date? Do you plan to move to India if they legalize gay marriages in India?

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Ref ahmadzai #110

[Yesterday, BBC showed piece on Nagaland. I was astonished to hear that it is one of the 7 Indian states in the north east India where separatist movements are going on. ......

I wonder how Pakistan has escaped accusation of cross-border infilteration in those states ;) ]

It is your friends the Chinese who used to supply arms to the Nagas. They have stopped now but the Nagas trade guns and drugs with the Kachins and other Burmese tribes.

Just FYI.

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Saima is not exaggerating about terrorists in over 5-6 states Bihar,Jharkhand ,Nagaland,Arunachal pradesh,Veerapan rules more than Karnataka & Tamil ....


The NYT today picked up the Reuters report and reproduced it in the World Briefing Section, under Asia - India.

But the NYT report is much shorter than the Reuters report. Both are reproduced below.

NYT`s World Briefing Section contains another story, which will be posted separately, on a child marriage in Nepal (the children were a 3-year old boy married to a 6-month old girl).

Obviously, the child marriage story is interesting. But, it could also be argued that the Nagaland rebels story is far more important and deserved a separate article. Depends on whether the Nagaland story is just a bizarre event in a remote state or whether it is a symptom of a wider issue of law and order and separatist movements in India. I don`t know enough about Nagaland to judge. Just observing here what makes news and what doesn`t.



NEW YORK TIMES VERSION FROM NYT DATED FEB 26, 2003:

INDIA: REBELS KIDNAP 300 Separatist rebels have abducted about 300 political workers in the northeastern state of Nagaland over the last few days to prevent them from taking part in assembly elections, officials said. A security official said rebels had kidnapped supporters of candidates, mainly from the state`s governing Congress Party, at gunpoint from their homes, offices and during campaigning. The hostages are being held in rebel hideouts in thickly forested mountains. (Reuters)


THE FULL REUTERS REPORT, FROM FEBRUARY 25, 2002 7:23 am VERSION:

Rebels Holding Hundreds Hostage in Northeast India
**************************************
Reuters
Tuesday, February 25, 2003; 7:23 AM

ZAKHAMA, India (Reuters) - Separatist rebels have abducted about 300 political workers in India`s northeastern state of Nagaland over the past few days to prevent them from participating in assembly polls Wednesday, an official said.

A security official said rebels had kidnapped supporters of candidates, mainly from the ruling Congress party, at gunpoint from their homes, offices and during campaigning. The hostages are being held in rebel hideouts in thickly forested mountains.

``The rebels are holding about 300 people hostage in different parts of the state to prevent them from voting,`` Lalthara, Nagaland`s chief electoral officer, told Reuters on Tuesday. ``The hostages are likely to be released after the voting is over.``

This is the first time that the guerrillas from the Naga National Council and two factions of the National Socialist Council of Nagaland have used such tactics before an election.

In the past, the groups fighting for an independent tribal homeland in Christian-dominated Nagaland have called for a poll boycott or attacked security vehicles and election officials.

Nagaland is one of India`s seven northeastern states plagued by separatist violence for more than half a century. More than 50,000 people had died in almost five decades of fighting between rebel forces and government troops.

The government held talks with a faction of the NSCN last month to end more than half a century of separatist revolt in the northeast, but made no headway.

The powerful Naga National Council had warned tribesmen to stay away from voting or ``face dire consequences.``

Some 225 candidates are in the fray for the 60-member assembly in Nagaland, one of four states due to vote for new assemblies Wednesday.

``The situation is very, very bad, lots of intimidation and torture of supporters of candidates is going on,`` Lalthara said.

Officials said rebels had blocked routes leading to polling stations and all the state`s 1,583 polling stations had been declared ``hypersensitive.``

An army official in Zakhama on the outskirts of the state capital, Kohima, said soldiers had intensified patrolling and rushed to remote villages where guerrillas had a free run.

Authorities have clamped a night curfew in Nagaland ahead of the vote and soldiers with automatic rifles have set up observation posts on hilltops to monitor guerrilla movements.












-

ahmadzai # 110 . . . there we go again, taking BBC as the fountain of truth and purveyor of correct perceptions as well as protectors of the Protestant part of the Christian faith as long as the Pope is not involved, like in Ireland, so when BBC claims 200000 dead take it with the same pinch of salt as 70/80000 dead in J&K . . . sure there are separatist movements everywhere in India starting from the smallets family unit (say, 50% of married couple want to separate at one time or the other, so??) . . . as far as Nagaland goes, let me give you some input which is closer to the truth, that movements go on and on . . . the biggest separatist leader of them all in Nagaland used to be Phizo, this is way back in the `50s. His grandson died wearing an Indian Army uniform fighting Kashmiri separatists, I know because he was my first cousin. The one regiment that covered itself with glory from the Indian side during Kargil was the Naga Regiment, formed under the Kumaonis.

Pakistan has escaped accusations of cross-border terrorism in Nagaland because of the simple reason that there is no geographical linkage, also maybe because the Nagas are smart, like people from Chittagong Hill Tracts and nearby areas of erstwhile East Pakistan?

HOWEVER, in deference to Saima`s article, what you have brought out, Ahmadzai, once again, is how we South Asians can be so easily wound up by the odd BBC/CNN report, timed to perfection. Did this BBC report mention that 75% voting took place, that all said and done, it was the Welsh Baptists who tried their best for decades to inspire breakaway fundamentalism in India`s North East . . . and that as on date, things are improving?

No, BBC will point out that there is no bijli/pani . . . well, for that matter, there is no bijli/pani in Delhi. So what?

It is about time we as a group at chowk started looking into who says what about our countries and try to give joint responses.

Next trip, I am going to Cork and shall write the final piece on Ireland for South Asian audiences. I got a batchmate there running an off-licence and restaurant there . . .

harish_hyd:

``Yaar, what have you been drinking?``

Not Desai Cola at least ;)

But let us not give into anger my friend. We are only taking benefit of this interactive board to exchange views with each other:)

``I repeat: Pakistan`s so-called realization was not voluntary. It was forced to make a U-turn under threat. Remember Colin Powell`s famous midnight telephone call to Mushy? Until then Pakistan was merrily basking in the illusion of strategic depth. ``

And I repeat, it was voluntary at least on part of the military junta and the moderate Pakistanis (who have polled 57% in the recent elections as opposed to Taliban supportes who polled 11 %). That is why several steps were already announced on August 14, 2001 by General Musharraf. Yes, I agree with you that it was not voluntary for a majority of Pakhtoons (population = 8-11% of the total Pakistani population) and all the Islamists of Pakistan.

``As for your reference to the Contras, as I said in my earlier post, the US acts when it perceives a threat to its interests, whether or not ``X`` is a military threat doesn`t really matter. ``

That is true with Pakistan also. We perceived threat from Talibans indirectly that would lead to a direct threat from the USA. So it became easier for General Musharraf to convince the moderates to turn blinders to extremists to make a U-Turn. Now, even the extremist Islamists claim that they were incorrectly supporting Talibans for the latter did not know how to conduct the affairs in present day.

In a nutshell, we are part of coalition and our support is being appreciated by White House every now and then (most recent came 2 days ago).

As regards Kashmir, we will keep making our position heard. This is in the interest of the entire developing world. Terrorism and freedom struggle has to be defined differently.

Suppose if America invades Iran as the 2nd country of the axis of evil and occupies it and Iranians start an armed struggle against Americans to liberate Iran, would we call it terrorism? Never. If Australia decides to make a pre-emptive strike against some alleged terrorist bases, which Indonesians deny and retaliate, would we call that terrorism? Never.

Terrorism will have to be defined in the strictest of terms. Pakistan is already acting as a leading voice on this matter and you will notice, will be respected shortly for doing just that.

Whether Pakistan gets Kashmir or not is another issue.

Saima 101,

PARENTHETIC DISMISSAL

``wish that India`s policy of pressuring Pakistan could work--but I think India is being foolish, ( frankly I am sick of the military and the jehadis too) but it isnt, it is breeding more insecurity, ``

If I remeber my grammer correctly, the clause with in the bracket is called parenthetic clause, great a parenthetic dismissal of the jihadists.

bY EQUATING INDIA AND PAKISTAN AND ALL THE TALK ABOUT PEACE IS SUPPORTED ONLY BY A PARENTHETIC DISMISSAL OF JIHADISTS. kERALA HAS 25 PERCENT MUSLIMS, a lot more than most of the other states, the ditrict of malappuram has almost 100 percent muslims.
Why ni jihadists in karala, why no jihadists in hyderabad, well they do not have a border with pakistan.

Presence of pakistan in the border was unknown to many in the south, now it is a remebered every time a jawan is given the last rites with military honours. In pakistan you never hear of the killed pakistanis, they are the uncountables, no pakistani has been killed in afghanistan or kashmir, no news paper reports it, even the great author saima refuses to accept it even parenthetically.

India has no kashmir problem, the world has an emerging pak problem. The simple hijacking of the indian airlines, the blow up of the twin towers, we know what is next. Attack on iraq is the first step. N.Korea is the next. For whom the salat sounds.

The last nail on the gandhian non agression has been stuck, india is entering big way in arms production, the taboo of selling arms is gone, in a short time arms sales will only be second to IT. Absolute no talks with pakistan is the right move. In agra all that mushy had to say was,, kashmir banega pakistan, the summit ended with out even a joint press statement. While peace was being talked in lahore the present peace lover was moving his troops to the heights of kargill. When saima parenthetically does not like the jihadists, a few thousand more are leaving the nadrassas and looking for the kafirs. What pakistanis need is a little bit of honesty, honesty to accept that they all beleieven in jihad, the killing of kafirs.

saima shah

This is a very good article. There are strong emotions on both sides but a constituency for peace is also building. Good job, saima.

Sadna at # 106:

Yesterday, BBC showed piece on Nagaland. I was astonished to hear that it is one of the 7 Indian states in the north east India where separatist movements are going on.

The audience were told that about 200,000 Christians of this state have been killed by Indian army since last 50 years or so. BBC also showed an interview with Naga writer Iralu, who was very critical of the ways things are being run by Indian military in Nagaland.

Also see the links to news on the home page of this website. It reports separatist related violence.

I wonder how Pakistan has escaped accusation of cross-border infilteration in those states ;)

#108 by ahmadzai on February 26, 2003 9:23pm PT

Yaar, what have you been drinking? I repeat: Pakistan`s so-called realization was not voluntary. It was forced to make a U-turn under threat. Remember Colin Powell`s famous midnight telephone call to Mushy? Until then Pakistan was merrily basking in the illusion of strategic depth.

As for your reference to the Contras, as I said in my earlier post, the US acts when it perceives a threat to its interests, whether or not ``X`` is a military threat doesn`t really matter.

[Despite no open support on Kashmir and freedom fighting from the world at large, Pakistan is raising the issue at each and every platform to the complete disappointment of India. Hence, more belligerence and irritation on India`s part.]

This is the funniest part of your post. Like a worn out gramophone record, you have been raising the Kashmir issue at every goddamn forum since 1947, so what`s new? On the contrary, it is Pakistan that is irritated and disappointed, because the world has woken up to its perfidious ways and no one, including your so-called best friend, China, takes you seriously anymore. Remember Kargil when Nawaz Sharif was politely told that Pakistan must withdraw its troops from the Indian side of the LoC? Nancy Powell`s statement that Pakistan must stop being a platform for terrorism, Mushy`s recent complaint that the OIC was no longer supportive of Pakistan`s effort to raise the Kashmir issue at every OIC meet, and Malaysia`s refusal to include reference to Kashmir in the draft declaration at the NAM summit are indicative of the reverses Pakistan is facing at the political and diplomatic level.