Forgive me, Danny

Dear Aisha,

Great Poem to bring back something I had internalized... In my letter to Friday Times last year (back in the good old Rutgers` days), which Marianne Pearl was kind enough to quote in New York Times, I had proposed a monument... if that ever goes through maybe we can put this poem on it Inshallah.


It is amazing how some people are so motivated by hate as to use every possible board to spurt out their verbiage of hate ... jay being the case in point... I have ignored him for so long but he still doesn`t cease from taking pot shots at me ... usually his claims are based on half truths lies and misquotes... I mean how long has it been since I last mentioned `Wolpert`? 2 years? Maybe more? He was perhaps one of the many authors I quoted and perhaps the one I used the least... yet since I don`t pay attention to Jay`s barking anymore he has taken to attack me poetically now...

If one doesn`t boast about one`s activities must it be assumed that he isn`t doing anything. I have been called all sorts of names by people here because unlike the self proclaimed social workers I use this board for simple academic discussion ... Unlike the arm chair social activists on this board, thank God I am today actively involved (IN REALITY not in CYBERSPACE) in stamping out injustice from the Pakistani society which is dearer to me than anything else in the world. We the Pakistanis have been victims of a warped military machine called the Pakistan Army... which sadly knows how to conquer its own people but knows very little of beating India. Late Zia ul Haq through his gun institutionalized discrimination against women and minorities... it takes something to fight against this in person... unlike many I am not sitting in the west spurting out long monologues... I am doing my part where it makes a difference.

I for one am not oblivious to the faults of my country... and my people. Only a fool will be... For Pakistan to succeed, it will have to come face to face with the skeletons in its closet and when I am done with it, there would be no more for hate mongerers like Jay to point fingers to.


A Tolerant, Progressive and liberal Pakistan Zindabad!

-YLH

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#83 by Tipu on March 5, 2003 9:22pm PT

What a waste of words (and space)!! And NOW, will you please let us know what you`re trying to say?

adnan,

I did dish out some numbers about the kashmiris killed by the indian troops. Now as a typical pakistani you do not want to give some numbers to the afghan and kashmir shaheeds of pakistan. This is really pathetic, theses are the true un-countables of pakistan. From the local papaers, from the mosques, from the jihadic organisation, pl do come up with a number.
About the holier than thou attitude of mine, well I has said befor, I am a professional paki-basher..(there are two full stops after that)

The sources said that based on the information gleaned from the documents, Pakistani officials believe that Al-Zawahiri, an Egyptian doctor who is thought to be the brains of Al Qaeda, slipped back into Pakistan after fleeing Afghanistan in October 2001, and hiding for some time in the Middle East. But Al-Zawahiri and Osama are not together, the sources said.

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed fled from Karachi last September after another key Al Qaeda operative, Ramzi bin Al Shibh, was captured, and went to Quetta. He left Quetta last month after one of his team members, identified as Asadullah, an Egyptian by nationality, was picked up during a joint FBI-ISI raid. He moved first to Lahore, then to Rawalpindi, the sources said.

////adnan, take it easy, the above is from dawn, it is not holier than thou from me. This only shows the roots of taliban in pakistan, the sfe houses the links,

#76 adnan_rafiq

Thanks for your note. Now you are talking about ground realities and problem solving, not all kinds of one-sided ``historical injustice`` stories of which there is an infinite supply in South Asia.

You should be aware that Nawaz and Vajpayee came very close to making some kind of start at settlement of J&K issues. Post-Kargil and Musharraf there is very little room in India for adjustments, flexibility etc. With the indian general elections looming in 2004, there will be little or no room for maneuver. I do not think any indian leader will deal with Musharraf for the next few years anyway.

I think the best bet is to calm the situation down (no more jihadis) in the area and wait it out. The general indian offer in this space is also been clear for some time. Some kind of autonomy deal for Kashmir with stronger integration of Ladakh and Jammu within India, soft borders for Kashmiri residents on both sides of the LOC. I think the pakistanis can feel that helped the Kashmiris win ``azadi`` (autonomy), the indians can feel that J&K remains within the indian orbit and constitution.

None of this can happen while Kashmir liberation days are being celebrated in Pakistan and public support for jihad continues to be displayed. So for now the situation is hard to change. The best we can do is minimize suffering of the people of J&K.

#84 Tipu

Do you have a reading problem? Or maybe some kind of mental disorder? Your hate-ridden and racist statements towards brahmins have nothing to do with the article I posted.

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Sattar that does it……I told you I am against anti-Quadiani laws along with proof but you unnecessarily blasted me. For that Sattar…….. tujh peh khuda ki la’anat kay das laakh jootay barsaiN, 1 la’anat, 2 la’anat, 3 la’anat, 4 la’anat, 4 la’anat, ……200 la’anat, 201 la’anat, 202 la’anat, la’anat, la’anat, la’anat, la’anat, 204 la’anat, …… 578 la’anat, 579 la’anat, 580 la’anat, ……994 la’anat, 995 la’anat, 996 la’anat, 997 la’anat, la’anat, 998 la’anat, 999 la’anat, 1000 la’anat.

Urstruly Sahib,

You are displaying signs of hopelessness … and prolonged intellectual decay. You have given up on the defense of “Islamic” practices of killing people for apostasy, adultery, blasphemy … waging war on polytheists just because … and social benefits of persecuting innocent Ahmadis. Your Islam is dead and rotting … and making a big stink. And you are dealing with it by taking your frustration out on Ahmadis.

You suggest that … one should not criticize the hard liners since it will only make their attitude stricter. So should I write poetry in their praise? If you folks cannot accept your basic faults … then go jump off a cliff. The world is better off without idiots like you. You cannot hold a nation hostage and expect to be showered with sympathy and understanding.

Mirza Sahib’s words you quoted … are consistent with the spirit of Quran … that there was no Islamic basis for waging jihad against the British. This position was favored by several, not all, thinkers and scholars of his time … who supported the British for putting an end to oppression of Muslims at the hands of some fanatic Hindu and Sikh elements in some parts of India. Your mullahs were only interested in war mongering and hatred and were therefore upset with the Ahmadi-Muslim community. It is worth pointing out that … while claiming to be peaceful and loving folks … your mullahs advocate waging war against others for merely preaching their beliefs! It is clear who is a fanatic here.

It is this fundamentalist culture of hatred, oppression, and violence that is mainly responsible for the current conflict. My prayers and sympathies are always with the innocent folks … whoever or wherever they are. If I fail to show much sympathy for the rabid hate mongers of your kind … I claim innocence on grounds of sanity and civility.

+++++++++++++

Tahmed Sahib, thanks for the message … I am sure I would have missed it otherwise. Thanks, once again.

stuka #72 I wasnt thinking of people like you when I referred to to the ``educated specimen``. I was thinking of people young master arjun and jay.
Chowk is indeed time pass and no big deal. Some people pass time by discussing issues with a view to developing a better understanding, some joke around a bit, others share experiences, others share their knowledge. That is all fine.
The ``specimen`` I was referring to in my post to hxn are the ones, like Arjun and Jay whose posts reflect deep rooted hatreds that ooze through their posts, and who obviously suffer from inferiority complexes that they are constantly trying to compensate for by crowing on chowk.

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Urstruly at # 69:

``THe question is not whether 1 mohajir was killed by state or 10,000, the question is of extra-judicial murders. State has no authority .... In this case state has overstepped its authority under local constitution, law, and recognized international laws. ``

That was a particular event in which Genaral Nasirullah Khan Babar committed the excesses under the leadership of Benazir Bhutto. All the opposition parties, including the Pakhtoon Nationalist ANP, and the sucussive Governments have protested those excesses.

``A report was published by the GOP in 2001, which admitted that since 1986, about 35,000+ people were killed in Karachi because of ethnic violence. The loss of property and productivity was in billions of rupees. The independent sources put the casualty figure into 50Ks.``

Most of them were killed by the two fighting factions of MQM. More Mohajirs were killed than any other ethnic group by these two factions. You only have to ask, for example, the widow of Mr. Azeem Tariq, who saw the escaping murderers and identified them as belonging to Mr. Hussain`s faction of MQM.

``As for your question of ethnic cleansing goes, I am a witness to the murder and a survivor...., who were fleeing in their own country to save their lives. ``

My friend, when I graduated from my school in the USA, I took my first job in Karachi with an evironmental organization. I am also a witness to the fracas. If some body tells me it was state apparatus, I would laugh at him/her. An interesting story: I was perhaps the only Pakistani Dulla who had to marry my sweet heart in almost a bald head due to 13 stitches on my head received by some MQM activists who were bent upon occupying a public park.

While organizing a function for the then girl heart-throb musical band the Arid Zone, I was almost killed by MQM Goondas, because they had demanded from me 300 free entrances in a hall that only housed 374 (FTC Building`s Auditorium). Since we had to raise funds, my wife and I, during the first days of our marriage, had to run to Alazam or Alkaram Plaza near Liaqatabad # 10 (I don`t recall the correct name now) to beg mercy. I still recall KK toting 16 to 20 year old boys very courteously guiding us to the meeting place of all the MQM parliamentarians, where a youngishg MQM provincial member from Gulshan e Iqbal (Saleem Shahzad, if I remember correctly) helped us out by accepting on behalf of MQM 20 passes. In the ensuing chaos he too disappeared as MQM activists turned against him.

``The murder of Mohajirs by state apparatus in early `90s qualifies as genocide if you look up the dictionary. ``

After the failure of the so called MQM rebellion, several of the young member leaders of the MQM changed their identities due to the threat from MQM diehards and are living happily ever since then. Some other fled to Australia and South Africa.

``The military establishment of Paksitan started this ethnic violence in `80s to break the political clout of PPP in rural sindh and that of JI in urban sindh......Mohajir group and sided with other to establish its government in sindh after lota elections. ``

I would refer you to Adnan`s response to me in this regard. Your solution seems to be to criticize Pakistani Government and its followers instead of focusing our attention on our enemies. Its like the MMA leaders who once said if Pakistan continued to side with the USA against Talibans then ``humm iss mulk ka jarain hilla day ga``. Wah bhai wah, yarra toom dushman ko berbaad karnay kay bajay mulk ka khana kharab kerta hay ;)

Where are are the constitutional rights of the people?

Constututional rights of the people can neither be won by getting UK citizenship and living comfortably in London, or in Dubai, or by avoiding struggle and settling for exile in Saudi Arabia, nor it can be won by raising non-issues like LFO, co-education, ban on liqor, etc as is being done by MMA.

You have to take the route taken by people like Nelson Mendela.

pmishra: I agree, Musharraf is a clown. If peace is to happen, it is going to be despite our armed forces or jehadis. There are a growing number of people in Pakistan who are equally tired of Kashmir (the fact that we celebrate Kashmir Day has more to do with taking the day off, trust me) and the role our military plays. We also understand that issue of Kashmir is kept alive to justify the massive military budget and the subsequent bungalows and expensive cars of our generals and brigadiers.

However, if peace is to take root in the sub-continent both of us have to meet in the middle somewhere. But, the Indians idea of peace is `my way or the highway`. I have seen three attitudes so far:

1 - Indians are too powerful and, as such, do not need peace with an insignificant Pakistan. Since, India now owns the laathi, it is completely ethical to own the bhains too. Compromise means that Pakistan should forget about Kashmir because its already occupied by India. No need for discussions or negotiations. This, I believe, is the view of Jay and arjun. Obviously, this line of reasoning leaves very little room for compromise from the Pakistani side.

2 - Indians are too benign and must act tough with Pakistan. All the internal troubles of India are a result of ISI intrigues. Vajpayee, after Lahore Yatra and the Kargil debacle, is now a firm believer of this approach. Obviously, this makes the hawks of BJP extremely happy.

3 - The `cross-border terrorism` theme is repeated ad nauseum and the goal is to get Pakistan declared a terrorist nation. If this is to happen, the consequences won`t be much different than Iraq, i.e. the military would grow stronger and its only the common Pakistani who would suffer. I understand that an average Indian is not happy with the Pak Army, but this course of action puts me, a common Pakistani, in the direct path of harm. If Indians understand this and still insist on following the `cross-border terrorism` route than obviously it becomes a matter of my survival, and there is no way in hell I would like to be friendly with them.

From the Indian perspective, I wish that they can cultivate an understanding that the real problem is Pak military (and its extension, i.e. the terrorist aka jehadis) not the common Pakistani. Up until the eighties I believe that was the case. However, with the success of BJP and a rise in fundamentalism in India, the country has lost the moral edge. Fundamentalism is a slippery rope. You`ll end up in the bowels of bigotry, hatred and violence before you know it. But, it seems that Indians are all too willing to slide down this rope because of their hatred for Muslims and Pakistan.

Sattar

I see that you are glad to see the basic human rights of Pakistanis being violated by their own government. I don’t think that your comments will help Quadiani cause, in any way or form. On the other hand it will make the work of moderates, who want to change the system from with in the system, more difficult because such comments are sure to make the attitude of hardliners stricter.

But if you are making such comments to offer your services as Northern Alliance on Pakistanis, then I am sorry to say that the job is already taken. Pakistan Army has offered their services first and they got the job. I am not surprised by your comments, because you are the descendent of one who offered his services to another colonial aggressor, in another time, the British Crown in these words:

``After the death of my father and brother I led a retired life. But nevertheless I have been employing my pen in the service of British Government. In all the works that I have written I have preached loyality to and sympathy with the British Government I have made effective speeches against Jehad. I wrote books in Arabic and Persian costing me thousands of rupees (Italics added) . All those books were disseminated in Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Egypt, Baghdad and Afghanistan. I am sure they will bear fruit some day...... wrote many works out of sincere loyality to the British Government otherwise I had little to gain by sending them in Arabia, Syria and Islamic world.”

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Tohafa-e-Qaisarya (A Present to the Queen ) Qadian, 1897 p. 27