Forgive me, Danny

Sattar that does it……I told you I am against anti-Quadiani laws along with proof but you unnecessarily blasted me. For that Sattar…….. tujh peh khuda ki la’anat kay das laakh jootay barsaiN, 1 la’anat, 2 la’anat, 3 la’anat, 4 la’anat, 4 la’anat, ……200 la’anat, 201 la’anat, 202 la’anat, la’anat, la’anat, la’anat, la’anat, 204 la’anat, …… 578 la’anat, 579 la’anat, 580 la’anat, ……994 la’anat, 995 la’anat, 996 la’anat, 997 la’anat, la’anat, 998 la’anat, 999 la’anat, 1000 la’anat.

Urstruly Sahib,

You are displaying signs of hopelessness … and prolonged intellectual decay. You have given up on the defense of “Islamic” practices of killing people for apostasy, adultery, blasphemy … waging war on polytheists just because … and social benefits of persecuting innocent Ahmadis. Your Islam is dead and rotting … and making a big stink. And you are dealing with it by taking your frustration out on Ahmadis.

You suggest that … one should not criticize the hard liners since it will only make their attitude stricter. So should I write poetry in their praise? If you folks cannot accept your basic faults … then go jump off a cliff. The world is better off without idiots like you. You cannot hold a nation hostage and expect to be showered with sympathy and understanding.

Mirza Sahib’s words you quoted … are consistent with the spirit of Quran … that there was no Islamic basis for waging jihad against the British. This position was favored by several, not all, thinkers and scholars of his time … who supported the British for putting an end to oppression of Muslims at the hands of some fanatic Hindu and Sikh elements in some parts of India. Your mullahs were only interested in war mongering and hatred and were therefore upset with the Ahmadi-Muslim community. It is worth pointing out that … while claiming to be peaceful and loving folks … your mullahs advocate waging war against others for merely preaching their beliefs! It is clear who is a fanatic here.

It is this fundamentalist culture of hatred, oppression, and violence that is mainly responsible for the current conflict. My prayers and sympathies are always with the innocent folks … whoever or wherever they are. If I fail to show much sympathy for the rabid hate mongers of your kind … I claim innocence on grounds of sanity and civility.

+++++++++++++

Tahmed Sahib, thanks for the message … I am sure I would have missed it otherwise. Thanks, once again.

stuka #72 I wasnt thinking of people like you when I referred to to the ``educated specimen``. I was thinking of people young master arjun and jay.
Chowk is indeed time pass and no big deal. Some people pass time by discussing issues with a view to developing a better understanding, some joke around a bit, others share experiences, others share their knowledge. That is all fine.
The ``specimen`` I was referring to in my post to hxn are the ones, like Arjun and Jay whose posts reflect deep rooted hatreds that ooze through their posts, and who obviously suffer from inferiority complexes that they are constantly trying to compensate for by crowing on chowk.

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Urstruly at # 69:

``THe question is not whether 1 mohajir was killed by state or 10,000, the question is of extra-judicial murders. State has no authority .... In this case state has overstepped its authority under local constitution, law, and recognized international laws. ``

That was a particular event in which Genaral Nasirullah Khan Babar committed the excesses under the leadership of Benazir Bhutto. All the opposition parties, including the Pakhtoon Nationalist ANP, and the sucussive Governments have protested those excesses.

``A report was published by the GOP in 2001, which admitted that since 1986, about 35,000+ people were killed in Karachi because of ethnic violence. The loss of property and productivity was in billions of rupees. The independent sources put the casualty figure into 50Ks.``

Most of them were killed by the two fighting factions of MQM. More Mohajirs were killed than any other ethnic group by these two factions. You only have to ask, for example, the widow of Mr. Azeem Tariq, who saw the escaping murderers and identified them as belonging to Mr. Hussain`s faction of MQM.

``As for your question of ethnic cleansing goes, I am a witness to the murder and a survivor...., who were fleeing in their own country to save their lives. ``

My friend, when I graduated from my school in the USA, I took my first job in Karachi with an evironmental organization. I am also a witness to the fracas. If some body tells me it was state apparatus, I would laugh at him/her. An interesting story: I was perhaps the only Pakistani Dulla who had to marry my sweet heart in almost a bald head due to 13 stitches on my head received by some MQM activists who were bent upon occupying a public park.

While organizing a function for the then girl heart-throb musical band the Arid Zone, I was almost killed by MQM Goondas, because they had demanded from me 300 free entrances in a hall that only housed 374 (FTC Building`s Auditorium). Since we had to raise funds, my wife and I, during the first days of our marriage, had to run to Alazam or Alkaram Plaza near Liaqatabad # 10 (I don`t recall the correct name now) to beg mercy. I still recall KK toting 16 to 20 year old boys very courteously guiding us to the meeting place of all the MQM parliamentarians, where a youngishg MQM provincial member from Gulshan e Iqbal (Saleem Shahzad, if I remember correctly) helped us out by accepting on behalf of MQM 20 passes. In the ensuing chaos he too disappeared as MQM activists turned against him.

``The murder of Mohajirs by state apparatus in early `90s qualifies as genocide if you look up the dictionary. ``

After the failure of the so called MQM rebellion, several of the young member leaders of the MQM changed their identities due to the threat from MQM diehards and are living happily ever since then. Some other fled to Australia and South Africa.

``The military establishment of Paksitan started this ethnic violence in `80s to break the political clout of PPP in rural sindh and that of JI in urban sindh......Mohajir group and sided with other to establish its government in sindh after lota elections. ``

I would refer you to Adnan`s response to me in this regard. Your solution seems to be to criticize Pakistani Government and its followers instead of focusing our attention on our enemies. Its like the MMA leaders who once said if Pakistan continued to side with the USA against Talibans then ``humm iss mulk ka jarain hilla day ga``. Wah bhai wah, yarra toom dushman ko berbaad karnay kay bajay mulk ka khana kharab kerta hay ;)

Where are are the constitutional rights of the people?

Constututional rights of the people can neither be won by getting UK citizenship and living comfortably in London, or in Dubai, or by avoiding struggle and settling for exile in Saudi Arabia, nor it can be won by raising non-issues like LFO, co-education, ban on liqor, etc as is being done by MMA.

You have to take the route taken by people like Nelson Mendela.

pmishra: I agree, Musharraf is a clown. If peace is to happen, it is going to be despite our armed forces or jehadis. There are a growing number of people in Pakistan who are equally tired of Kashmir (the fact that we celebrate Kashmir Day has more to do with taking the day off, trust me) and the role our military plays. We also understand that issue of Kashmir is kept alive to justify the massive military budget and the subsequent bungalows and expensive cars of our generals and brigadiers.

However, if peace is to take root in the sub-continent both of us have to meet in the middle somewhere. But, the Indians idea of peace is `my way or the highway`. I have seen three attitudes so far:

1 - Indians are too powerful and, as such, do not need peace with an insignificant Pakistan. Since, India now owns the laathi, it is completely ethical to own the bhains too. Compromise means that Pakistan should forget about Kashmir because its already occupied by India. No need for discussions or negotiations. This, I believe, is the view of Jay and arjun. Obviously, this line of reasoning leaves very little room for compromise from the Pakistani side.

2 - Indians are too benign and must act tough with Pakistan. All the internal troubles of India are a result of ISI intrigues. Vajpayee, after Lahore Yatra and the Kargil debacle, is now a firm believer of this approach. Obviously, this makes the hawks of BJP extremely happy.

3 - The `cross-border terrorism` theme is repeated ad nauseum and the goal is to get Pakistan declared a terrorist nation. If this is to happen, the consequences won`t be much different than Iraq, i.e. the military would grow stronger and its only the common Pakistani who would suffer. I understand that an average Indian is not happy with the Pak Army, but this course of action puts me, a common Pakistani, in the direct path of harm. If Indians understand this and still insist on following the `cross-border terrorism` route than obviously it becomes a matter of my survival, and there is no way in hell I would like to be friendly with them.

From the Indian perspective, I wish that they can cultivate an understanding that the real problem is Pak military (and its extension, i.e. the terrorist aka jehadis) not the common Pakistani. Up until the eighties I believe that was the case. However, with the success of BJP and a rise in fundamentalism in India, the country has lost the moral edge. Fundamentalism is a slippery rope. You`ll end up in the bowels of bigotry, hatred and violence before you know it. But, it seems that Indians are all too willing to slide down this rope because of their hatred for Muslims and Pakistan.

Sattar

I see that you are glad to see the basic human rights of Pakistanis being violated by their own government. I don’t think that your comments will help Quadiani cause, in any way or form. On the other hand it will make the work of moderates, who want to change the system from with in the system, more difficult because such comments are sure to make the attitude of hardliners stricter.

But if you are making such comments to offer your services as Northern Alliance on Pakistanis, then I am sorry to say that the job is already taken. Pakistan Army has offered their services first and they got the job. I am not surprised by your comments, because you are the descendent of one who offered his services to another colonial aggressor, in another time, the British Crown in these words:

``After the death of my father and brother I led a retired life. But nevertheless I have been employing my pen in the service of British Government. In all the works that I have written I have preached loyality to and sympathy with the British Government I have made effective speeches against Jehad. I wrote books in Arabic and Persian costing me thousands of rupees (Italics added) . All those books were disseminated in Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Egypt, Baghdad and Afghanistan. I am sure they will bear fruit some day...... wrote many works out of sincere loyality to the British Government otherwise I had little to gain by sending them in Arabia, Syria and Islamic world.”

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Tohafa-e-Qaisarya (A Present to the Queen ) Qadian, 1897 p. 27

Adnan:

``But, not a single Indian is willing to admit it...``

...to Pakistanis. No Indian thinks that everything in Kashmir is hunky dory. But admitting it to a Pakistani is tough because there is a territorial claim attached to it.

If Pakistan were to say, we give up claim on the land, just remove the army and enforce human rights, the situation would improve. Ofcourse, things would not be great, but that`s coz things are not great anywhere in India.

Beisdes, why do you waste time reading Jay`s posts in any case?

TAhmed:

``average person in the subcontinent has more sense than the ``educated specimen`` who visit chowk for purposes of engaging in India-Pakistan self-aggrandizement and mutual-insult competitions. ``

Oh c`mon...I am an educated ``specimen`` and I frequently take part in mutual insult competitions. But c`mon, it`s just time pass. I believe that most people in real life would remarkably be more sophisticated. God knows, I get on well with Pakistanis in real life, though, we still occaisionally trade insults. Its a guy thing. You shouldn`t take it too seriously.

Sattar2:

``Ground reality is that you mullahs are screaming for civil rights and due process … because you are now dealing with someone who carries a bigger stick. ``

Exactly, My dear Sir. Exactly!!! The hypocricy of the Mullahs is astounding. The Taliban did diddly squat for human rights, but cry and moan when theres are violated.

adnan_rafiq #64

[quote]
The fact remains that India has never honored Nehru`s promise to the U.N. for a plesbicite in Kashmir.
[/quote]

Do you have any knowledge of the conditions of this plebiscite? The very first condition is the complete withdrawal of all non-indian forces from ALL of J&K. Do you think this condition can ever be fulfilled? Why did Pakistan refuse to act on this from 1948 to 1971?

We can all selectively pick up bits of history and fling it in each others faces. This propaganda is the trademark of forces like the VHP which emphasize only one incomplete aspect of history in terms of hindu-muslim relations. You are doing exactly the same thing with respect to J&K.

The solution to J&K has been on offer since Vajpayee`s brave trip to Lahore. But the pakistani military and jihadis cannot accept it. Hence Kargil, hence the public affirmations of the Kashmir jihad, the ludicrous Agra summit in which reasonable people all over india concluded that Musharraf was an irresponsible clown.

You can keep going with your victim complex and tours to naive and uninformed parties. You can keep on funding murder and terrorism (and then wonder why there is extremist violence in your society!!). Or you can work for a practical solution which respects ground realities.

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ahmadzai#67

THe question is not whether 1 mohajir was killed by state or 10,000, the question is of extra-judicial murders. State has no authority to use its apparatus to murder any citizen under absolutely no circumstances. Otherwise, it fails the purpose of having a judiciary or even of establishment of a civilized society. In this case state has overstepped its authority under local constitution, law, and recognized international laws.

A report was published by the GOP in 2001, which admitted that since 1986, about 35,000+ people were killed in Karachi because of ethnic violence. The loss of property and productivity was in billions of rupees. The independent sources put the casualty figure into 50Ks.

As for your question of ethnic cleansing goes, I am a witness to the murder and a survivor. I have survived this civil war through four years and lived to tell, when rest of the country is in denial and suffering from collective amnesia. I have seen mass migrations of Pathans, Punjabis, Sindhis, and Mohajirs from each others areas. I have witnessed the trains full of families leaving from Karachi to Punjab and upper Sindh. There were camps established in Sadiqabad and Bahawalpur to give relief to those refugees, who were fleeing in their own country to save their lives.

The murder of Mohajirs by state apparatus in early `90s qualifies as genocide if you look up the dictionary.

The military establishment of Paksitan started this ethnic violence in `80s to break the political clout of PPP in rural sindh and that of JI in urban sindh. They are the one who have occupied the major resources of this land. Because of this the economic disparity and unconstitutional distribution of revenues has created discontent between the provinces. This situation has not gotten any better. This government has not done any different. They have again used state apparatus against one Mohajir group and sided with other to establish its government in sindh after lota elections.

Where are the constitutional rights of the people?

jay #64:
Jay, those who live in glass houses don`t throw rocks at others. No one`s denying that Pakistan did not commit attrocities in the name of religion. No one`s denying our shameful role in Afghanistan and the support of terrorist activities in Kashmir or the way we treat our minorities. And, I am not stupid to expect a handful of New Hampshire lawmakers to put a dent in American foreign policy visavis Pakistan and India. But, the fact remains that they went there and saw something that runs contrary to all the claims made by Vajpayee and the rest of the saffron brigade. But, as usual not a single Indian has bothered to accept that perhaps there is some truth in it. Its complete denial as usual. As far as they are concerned the lawmakers are compulsive liars. Isn`t it?

I am not out here to prove that Pakistan is better or to support the policies of our armed forces. I don`t. I have said many times that Pakistan should get out of Kashmir immediately and focus on its internal problems (which seem to be growing exponentially) first. Also, given the size of India (in terms of size, population and economy) it is a suidical attempt for Pakistan to try to achieve parity. This competition will hurt Pakistan a lot more than India. But, given the stranglehold our military has on all aspects of Pakistani life, I am not holding my breath.

However, I do have a problem with the `holier than thou` attitude of many Indians. The fact remains that the Indian army has also committed crimes in Kashmir - murders, rapes, harassment, illegal arrests, etc. These facts are acknowledged by many international humanitarian agencies including Amnesty Internationa, and now the lawmakers. The fact remains that India has never honored Nehru`s promise to the U.N. for a plesbicite in Kashmir. The fact remains that Kashmiris are not happy with the current Indian government. Yes, they are not happy with the terrorists who cross over from Pakistan (please note that I am calling them terrorists not jehadis or freedom fighters), but that does not mean that all is hunky dory for Kashmiris. But, not a single Indian is willing to admit it. Instead of admitting the merciless slaughtering of Muslims or sikhs in the eighties, you guys are busy telling us about Taliban, Afghanistan and madrassas.

Adnan Rafiq at # 30:

``But, the attrocities committed by Benazir and Naseer-ullah Babar during the early nineties come very close to the definition of genocide. Extra-judicial killings, false arrests, harassement of family members, intimidation of local newspapers, etc. were the order of the day during their time. Perhaps, a more balanced approach would divide the blame equally between MQM and the establishment.``

I have problem with the over-utilized words of genocide (killing of an ethnic group) and ethnic cleansing. How do you campare targetted killing of less than 100 MQM activists (let us take a maximum of 1,000 or let us even go beyond that and take 5,000) with the following:

1. The killing of 700,000 Jews by Germans during the WW2 that is termed a genocide.
2. The killing of 200,000 Tootsies by Hootoes that has also been termed a genocide.
3. The death and destruction of Bosnians, Croats and others (well over 100,000 by Serbians that has been termed ethnic cleansing.
4. The report of NH parliamentarians that you have referred to arjun_m is also talking about genocide (take the usually quoted figure of 75,000 by Pakistanis).

IMHO, MQM`s killings cannot be termed either a genocide or an ethnic cleansing. But I agree that even this is not permissible.