Forgive me, Danny
Aisha Sarwari March 2, 2003
#66 Posted by arjun_m on March 5, 2003 7:07:46 am
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#65 Posted by pmishra2 on March 5, 2003 7:07:46 am
Perceptive comment from an Indian Express columnist. Syed Naqvi has also made similar points in his writing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fighting Barista Brahminism?
The VHP and the rise and rise of ‘Shudra Hindutva’
Sagarika Ghose
When members of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad assembled in New Delhi last week they complained that they were treated with scorn. They said English-speaking secularists made fun of them. They said they were ridiculed by the ‘Macaulayist’ media.
The VHP-Bajrang Dal has, over the last decade, added a new enemy to their list of evil influences on Hindu rashtra. Not just the Muslim and the Christian, but also the ‘English speaking’ ‘western educated’ class, exemplified in the persona of the ‘secularist’. The secularist is not recognised merely by his stance on the Babri masjid or the Shah Bano case or on terrorism. Instead, a secularist is anyone who listens to western music, eats in Italian restaurants or does not sport a tilak and dhoti. A secularist is an upper caste individual employed in a corporate job or the private sector. As Pravin Togadia never tires of saying,‘‘Our enemies are the Three Ms: Muslims, Macaulayists and Marxists.’’ Togadia hates secularists but loves the fact that they exist because without them he would lose his “son of the soil” appeal. “Please argue with me,” he pleads.
Yet Togadia’s critique conceals the increasing class and caste anger of the VHP. The VHP’s new definition of ‘Brahminism’ is anyone who is urban, educated and drinks cappuccino at Barista. As a VHP worker said, “Today we may riot against Muslims, tomorrow we will fight against Brahmin dogs if the need arises.”
When the VHP was first formed in the sixties as a loose organisation to feed into the programmes of the RSS and strengthen Hindu feelings among the diaspora, among its founders were Brahmins like K.M. Munshi and Ramaprasad Mookerjee. Subsequently during the Ramjanmabhoomi movement, caste differences were suppressed in the overall mission of creating a Hindu monolith. But over the last decade, the VHP has become transformed from an organisation of traders, petty industrialists and provincial bureaucrats to a grouping whose cadres are made up predominantly of Other Backward Castes (OBCs). As Manjari Katju writes in the recently published Vishwa Hindu Parishad and Indian Politics, “with change in social composition, the VHP’s language of mobilisation changed from mild socio-religious criticism to a vitriolic attack on the entire social and political ideology of the state”.
As part of the deliberate campaign of ‘social engineering’ and bringing lower castes back to the Hindu fold, the VHP-BD is as much a party of Shudras as it is of Brahmins, for whom strident oratory is in fact a deliberate drama enacted to gain votes and social recognition.
Take a spot poll. Earlier generations of the VHP leadership may have been Kayastha like Giriraj Kishore or Bania like Ashok Singhal. But new generations are all OBCs or Shudras. Pravin Togadia? Patel, sometimes classed as ‘Backwards’. Narendra Modi? OBC. Uma Bharti? OBC. Vinay Katiyar of the Bajrang Dal? OBC. Acharya Dharmendra? OBC. Sadhvi Rithambhara? OBC. Kalyan Singh? OBC. The VHP is thus, today, a movement that has been described by a Dalit historian as a movement of ‘Shudra Hindutva’. VHP Hindutva was once obsessed with the aim of bridging caste divides in the creation of the Hindu vote. But now it increasingly sees itself as anti upper-caste, anti-English and anti-metropolitan. In the VHP’s terms, even BJP members like Jaswant Singh or Arun Jaitley or Arun Shourie or even Vajpayee himself are all the ‘secularist’ enemy.
Today certain VHP workers claim a self-image akin to the revolutionaries of the French revolution, who guillotined the elite on the street. “Why do you accuse us of being violent? Didn’t the French kill their rajas and ranis?” Some VHP members say that their hero is Parashuram, slayer of upper castes. They speak of the need to fight the “new Brahmins”, who must be “fought because of their monopoly on English-language education, employment and access to international careers”. While the RSS may be made of genteel Brahmin patriarchs, the Shudra Hindutva of the VHP is a violent protest movement against all elitism, a social revolution aimed to snatch power from the speakers of angrezi and the wearers of bell bottoms. “Shudra Hindutva” is not only fiercely competitive with Muslims but also enraged at being left out of the new economy.
In the anti-Muslim riots in north India in the eighties, Kurmis, Jats and other OBCs formed the main fighting force. The VHP cadres in Gujarat are predominantly OBC. It was the OBCs in the Gujarat Bajrang Dal, not Brahmins or Banias, who were the frontrunners of the attacks against Muslims. OBCs are seen to be more anti-Muslim than Brahmins precisely because their professions place them in direct competition. A Muslim artisan’s or a Muslim tailor’s main competitor is not the Hindu Brahmin or the Hindu Kshtriya but the Hindu OBC.
Many OBC fortunes have been made by membership in the VHP or Bajrang Dal. The BJP’s trishul distribution campaigns in Rajasthan are taking place among OBCs, apart from Dalits and Adivasis, with the promise to hand them Kshtriya status and an avenue for upward mobility. Membership in the VHP thus provides a higher caste status in the Hindu hierarchy. Also, OBC youth who fail their school-leaving examinations or suffer academically because of the lack of English, can often find employment in the VHP. There are many instances of ABVP activists or Reddy businessmen not only becoming affluent through membership of the VHP but also acquiring liquor contracts, real estate and licences to set up private colleges.
The Congress has failed to understand OBC aspirations. The OBC parties led by Laloo Prasad Yadav and Mulayam Singh Yadav are in mutual competition with the VHP, but one only has to cast one’s eye at the chic Diggy Raja to the Scindia scion, to trendies like Aiyar, Soni, Alva and Nath, to realise that the leadership of the Congress is still suvarna and paternalistic. The restless new cadres powering their way into the VHP and the BJP cannot be won over by pointing them towards Kabir’s pluralism or the excellent bhajans of Mirabai. What they are looking for is a counter-identity that provides social status, seats in Parliament but, most importantly, the jobs and privileges of the English-speaking class. They may not ever get these jobs, but the VHP provides, at least, a place in the social sun. Togadia who grew up in an Ahmedabad chawl may never get to play tennis at the Delhi Gymkhana but being in the VHP has guaranteed him a place in a television studio
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fighting Barista Brahminism?
The VHP and the rise and rise of ‘Shudra Hindutva’
Sagarika Ghose
When members of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad assembled in New Delhi last week they complained that they were treated with scorn. They said English-speaking secularists made fun of them. They said they were ridiculed by the ‘Macaulayist’ media.
The VHP-Bajrang Dal has, over the last decade, added a new enemy to their list of evil influences on Hindu rashtra. Not just the Muslim and the Christian, but also the ‘English speaking’ ‘western educated’ class, exemplified in the persona of the ‘secularist’. The secularist is not recognised merely by his stance on the Babri masjid or the Shah Bano case or on terrorism. Instead, a secularist is anyone who listens to western music, eats in Italian restaurants or does not sport a tilak and dhoti. A secularist is an upper caste individual employed in a corporate job or the private sector. As Pravin Togadia never tires of saying,‘‘Our enemies are the Three Ms: Muslims, Macaulayists and Marxists.’’ Togadia hates secularists but loves the fact that they exist because without them he would lose his “son of the soil” appeal. “Please argue with me,” he pleads.
Yet Togadia’s critique conceals the increasing class and caste anger of the VHP. The VHP’s new definition of ‘Brahminism’ is anyone who is urban, educated and drinks cappuccino at Barista. As a VHP worker said, “Today we may riot against Muslims, tomorrow we will fight against Brahmin dogs if the need arises.”
When the VHP was first formed in the sixties as a loose organisation to feed into the programmes of the RSS and strengthen Hindu feelings among the diaspora, among its founders were Brahmins like K.M. Munshi and Ramaprasad Mookerjee. Subsequently during the Ramjanmabhoomi movement, caste differences were suppressed in the overall mission of creating a Hindu monolith. But over the last decade, the VHP has become transformed from an organisation of traders, petty industrialists and provincial bureaucrats to a grouping whose cadres are made up predominantly of Other Backward Castes (OBCs). As Manjari Katju writes in the recently published Vishwa Hindu Parishad and Indian Politics, “with change in social composition, the VHP’s language of mobilisation changed from mild socio-religious criticism to a vitriolic attack on the entire social and political ideology of the state”.
As part of the deliberate campaign of ‘social engineering’ and bringing lower castes back to the Hindu fold, the VHP-BD is as much a party of Shudras as it is of Brahmins, for whom strident oratory is in fact a deliberate drama enacted to gain votes and social recognition.
Take a spot poll. Earlier generations of the VHP leadership may have been Kayastha like Giriraj Kishore or Bania like Ashok Singhal. But new generations are all OBCs or Shudras. Pravin Togadia? Patel, sometimes classed as ‘Backwards’. Narendra Modi? OBC. Uma Bharti? OBC. Vinay Katiyar of the Bajrang Dal? OBC. Acharya Dharmendra? OBC. Sadhvi Rithambhara? OBC. Kalyan Singh? OBC. The VHP is thus, today, a movement that has been described by a Dalit historian as a movement of ‘Shudra Hindutva’. VHP Hindutva was once obsessed with the aim of bridging caste divides in the creation of the Hindu vote. But now it increasingly sees itself as anti upper-caste, anti-English and anti-metropolitan. In the VHP’s terms, even BJP members like Jaswant Singh or Arun Jaitley or Arun Shourie or even Vajpayee himself are all the ‘secularist’ enemy.
Today certain VHP workers claim a self-image akin to the revolutionaries of the French revolution, who guillotined the elite on the street. “Why do you accuse us of being violent? Didn’t the French kill their rajas and ranis?” Some VHP members say that their hero is Parashuram, slayer of upper castes. They speak of the need to fight the “new Brahmins”, who must be “fought because of their monopoly on English-language education, employment and access to international careers”. While the RSS may be made of genteel Brahmin patriarchs, the Shudra Hindutva of the VHP is a violent protest movement against all elitism, a social revolution aimed to snatch power from the speakers of angrezi and the wearers of bell bottoms. “Shudra Hindutva” is not only fiercely competitive with Muslims but also enraged at being left out of the new economy.
In the anti-Muslim riots in north India in the eighties, Kurmis, Jats and other OBCs formed the main fighting force. The VHP cadres in Gujarat are predominantly OBC. It was the OBCs in the Gujarat Bajrang Dal, not Brahmins or Banias, who were the frontrunners of the attacks against Muslims. OBCs are seen to be more anti-Muslim than Brahmins precisely because their professions place them in direct competition. A Muslim artisan’s or a Muslim tailor’s main competitor is not the Hindu Brahmin or the Hindu Kshtriya but the Hindu OBC.
Many OBC fortunes have been made by membership in the VHP or Bajrang Dal. The BJP’s trishul distribution campaigns in Rajasthan are taking place among OBCs, apart from Dalits and Adivasis, with the promise to hand them Kshtriya status and an avenue for upward mobility. Membership in the VHP thus provides a higher caste status in the Hindu hierarchy. Also, OBC youth who fail their school-leaving examinations or suffer academically because of the lack of English, can often find employment in the VHP. There are many instances of ABVP activists or Reddy businessmen not only becoming affluent through membership of the VHP but also acquiring liquor contracts, real estate and licences to set up private colleges.
The Congress has failed to understand OBC aspirations. The OBC parties led by Laloo Prasad Yadav and Mulayam Singh Yadav are in mutual competition with the VHP, but one only has to cast one’s eye at the chic Diggy Raja to the Scindia scion, to trendies like Aiyar, Soni, Alva and Nath, to realise that the leadership of the Congress is still suvarna and paternalistic. The restless new cadres powering their way into the VHP and the BJP cannot be won over by pointing them towards Kabir’s pluralism or the excellent bhajans of Mirabai. What they are looking for is a counter-identity that provides social status, seats in Parliament but, most importantly, the jobs and privileges of the English-speaking class. They may not ever get these jobs, but the VHP provides, at least, a place in the social sun. Togadia who grew up in an Ahmedabad chawl may never get to play tennis at the Delhi Gymkhana but being in the VHP has guaranteed him a place in a television studio
#64 Posted by jay on March 4, 2003 11:25:55 pm
adnan 45
``And never have I seen an Indian to mention the human cost of oppression at the hand of their armed forces in Kashmir and the human cost of Muslims slaughtered in Gujrat as the police and other authorities stood at the side lines.``
Pl read dawn, the daily report to the jihadic supporters in various parts of the world. There are 70,000 killed in kashmir, 800,000 troops in srinagar, 8000 muslims killed in gujarat.
Now can you tell me how many shaheeds in pakistan, the type that left the madrassa, went looking for the kafirs to kill, the archetypal homo erectus pakistanicus. Tell me adnan, how many killed, sorry, martyred in afghanistan, how many in kashmir. As a pakistani, no one keeps count, they are the un-countables of pakistan, the men driven by the species specific urge to kill homo sapiens. There is no ther country in the world today where men have gone of their own volition, no ecnomic incentives, but the raw urge to kill in the promise of a heaven. Adnan, pakistan is singular in this achievement to the extent that anthropologists have coined a new term, hono erectus pakistanicus.
``And never have I seen an Indian to mention the human cost of oppression at the hand of their armed forces in Kashmir and the human cost of Muslims slaughtered in Gujrat as the police and other authorities stood at the side lines.``
Pl read dawn, the daily report to the jihadic supporters in various parts of the world. There are 70,000 killed in kashmir, 800,000 troops in srinagar, 8000 muslims killed in gujarat.
Now can you tell me how many shaheeds in pakistan, the type that left the madrassa, went looking for the kafirs to kill, the archetypal homo erectus pakistanicus. Tell me adnan, how many killed, sorry, martyred in afghanistan, how many in kashmir. As a pakistani, no one keeps count, they are the un-countables of pakistan, the men driven by the species specific urge to kill homo sapiens. There is no ther country in the world today where men have gone of their own volition, no ecnomic incentives, but the raw urge to kill in the promise of a heaven. Adnan, pakistan is singular in this achievement to the extent that anthropologists have coined a new term, hono erectus pakistanicus.
#63 Posted by jay on March 4, 2003 10:34:07 pm
FORGIVE ME SAMIA SARWAR,
I know my name is similar to yours,
only an ``i`` is missing
Stll I cannot remeber your name
It is strange that a man cross the border
That too a horrible hindoo
Keeps your name alive
I talked to tahmed about you
And he said that your were no-innocent
And according to tahmed
That is certain jihadic death
I talked to YLH about you
He quoted from wolpert
He quoted from one speach
And he kept quoting, I left him alone.
I still cannot remeber you
Many like you are dead
Why should you be special
Because I could be you tomorrow.
A poem NOt by Ayesha Sarwari
I know my name is similar to yours,
only an ``i`` is missing
Stll I cannot remeber your name
It is strange that a man cross the border
That too a horrible hindoo
Keeps your name alive
I talked to tahmed about you
And he said that your were no-innocent
And according to tahmed
That is certain jihadic death
I talked to YLH about you
He quoted from wolpert
He quoted from one speach
And he kept quoting, I left him alone.
I still cannot remeber you
Many like you are dead
Why should you be special
Because I could be you tomorrow.
A poem NOt by Ayesha Sarwari
#62 Posted by sattar2 on March 4, 2003 9:20:03 pm
Urstruly …
While you are working on explaining the peaceful aspects of your Islam … feel free to also shed light on the peaceful aspects of killing people for apostasy and adultery …
I know hotel California is one thing … and its unplugged version was a bad idea … but must we drag this nonsense into real life … and hunt people down like hound dogs … if, after once flirting with the idea of waiting for 70 chicks in the hereafter, they decided that a bird in hand is better than two in the bush?
So they get to pick … either do the nasty and get killed for adultery … or revoke their pledge to the Almighty and get killed for apostasy. I know a choice between coke and pepsi is always good … but isn’t this death-fatwa thing pushing the limits too far? And besides, what good has your Islam done to your goat-screwing Arab leaders anyway … they cannot even hold a f#%king summit on Iraq … without shouting obscenities and death threats to each other. The live telecast was taken off the air … I read recently.
I know you got angry when Junior warned … “either you are with us, or against us” … but he was probably quoting from your Quran or a book on ahadith. After all … you are the one to tell us that Mohammad had people killed for merely making fun of him … and that Quran commands us to wage jihad against those worshipping cows and kangaroos.
Ground reality is that you mullahs are screaming for civil rights and due process … because you are now dealing with someone who carries a bigger stick. You started this mess … now deal with it. Or better yet … with one hand holding your shalwar above the ankles … grab a talwar in the other hand … yell takbeer … and make a dash towards that big white building. You’ll become famous overnight … and will immediately get to make out with 70 chicks all at once!
#61 Posted by tahmed32 on March 4, 2003 9:20:02 pm
hxn #59 I think we have had a reasonable discussion, even if we have somewhat different views on the situation regarding religious extremism in India vs. Pakistan.
I think we both agree that religious extremism is a problem in both countries. Whether religious extremism is a bigger problem in India than in Pakistan, and whether there is broader based support for religious extremism than in India than in Pakistan is something we could debate ad nauseum, but it would be a bit like debating which of the two ugly sisters is uglier.
Instead, I think let us both wish all the best to the future of this armpit of the world we call home (i.e. the subcontinent), and let us both be thankful that the average person in the subcontinent has more sense than the ``educated specimen`` who visit chowk for purposes of engaging in India-Pakistan self-aggrandizement and mutual-insult competitions.
Cheers :-)
I think we both agree that religious extremism is a problem in both countries. Whether religious extremism is a bigger problem in India than in Pakistan, and whether there is broader based support for religious extremism than in India than in Pakistan is something we could debate ad nauseum, but it would be a bit like debating which of the two ugly sisters is uglier.
Instead, I think let us both wish all the best to the future of this armpit of the world we call home (i.e. the subcontinent), and let us both be thankful that the average person in the subcontinent has more sense than the ``educated specimen`` who visit chowk for purposes of engaging in India-Pakistan self-aggrandizement and mutual-insult competitions.
Cheers :-)
#60 Posted by sadna on March 4, 2003 9:20:02 pm
Correction to #58
In 1999 clemency petitions were filed with the President of India. In 2001, and after Sonia Gandhi`s appeal to award clemency, the death sentence of one of them who was a woman with a child was commuted to life imprisonment. The other 3 have not been hanged yet.
In 1999 clemency petitions were filed with the President of India. In 2001, and after Sonia Gandhi`s appeal to award clemency, the death sentence of one of them who was a woman with a child was commuted to life imprisonment. The other 3 have not been hanged yet.
#59 Posted by hxn on March 4, 2003 5:28:40 pm
tahmed # 55
i`ll concede that point.
the brutal murder of the christian missionaries and his children was absolutley sick and a huge blot on india, as has been all the communal violence in recent years including Gujurat.
and i also concede that these events are related to larger trends in indian society.
i hope that the slow march to market reform and greater freedom that pluralistic india has embarked on will allow us to overcome these evils.
i might be on shakier ground here and few pakis on this board may believe me, but as you, even when i put ``the ritual`` indo-pak contest aside, i do feel pakistan is in worse shape. the pearl murder is directly linked to sept. 11, to kashmir, and the fundamental muslim resentments/inferiority complexes about other religions and peoples that led to the creation of the country in the first place - just an ever downward spiraling whirlwind of hate. but hey, that`s just my take.
i`ll concede that point.
the brutal murder of the christian missionaries and his children was absolutley sick and a huge blot on india, as has been all the communal violence in recent years including Gujurat.
and i also concede that these events are related to larger trends in indian society.
i hope that the slow march to market reform and greater freedom that pluralistic india has embarked on will allow us to overcome these evils.
i might be on shakier ground here and few pakis on this board may believe me, but as you, even when i put ``the ritual`` indo-pak contest aside, i do feel pakistan is in worse shape. the pearl murder is directly linked to sept. 11, to kashmir, and the fundamental muslim resentments/inferiority complexes about other religions and peoples that led to the creation of the country in the first place - just an ever downward spiraling whirlwind of hate. but hey, that`s just my take.
#58 Posted by sadna on March 4, 2003 4:24:23 pm
temporal
GOI failed royally? They were in jail, thats the maximum punishment one usually gets in India. People donot get death sentences arbitrarily in India like in Pakistan. Death sentenceas are handed out only in the rarest of the rare cases. Even Rajiv Gandhi`s killers/conspirators went through very long court and clemency process. One of them was finally granted clemency and the others were executed only last year or so.
GOI failed royally? They were in jail, thats the maximum punishment one usually gets in India. People donot get death sentences arbitrarily in India like in Pakistan. Death sentenceas are handed out only in the rarest of the rare cases. Even Rajiv Gandhi`s killers/conspirators went through very long court and clemency process. One of them was finally granted clemency and the others were executed only last year or so.
#57 Posted by arjun_m on March 4, 2003 3:20:42 pm
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#56 Posted by tahmed32 on March 4, 2003 3:20:17 pm
hxn #54 And so, would you extend your logic and attribute the murders of the christian missionaries in India, or the Gujrat burnings of families, to the fundamental hatreds of Indians?
Murderers roam free in Pakistan, and that is bad indeed. But let me humbly point out that criminals win elections and become Chief Ministers in India, as in case of Modi. And that is very very bad indeed.
Having performed the ritual India-Pakistan contest, let me say seriously that as a Pakistani I am angry that the Pakistan government has allowed known murderers from India go free in Pakistan. We should these criminals back to India - we have enough criminals of our own polluting society, we dont need any more.
Murderers roam free in Pakistan, and that is bad indeed. But let me humbly point out that criminals win elections and become Chief Ministers in India, as in case of Modi. And that is very very bad indeed.
Having performed the ritual India-Pakistan contest, let me say seriously that as a Pakistani I am angry that the Pakistan government has allowed known murderers from India go free in Pakistan. We should these criminals back to India - we have enough criminals of our own polluting society, we dont need any more.
#55 Posted by arjun_m on March 4, 2003 3:20:17 pm
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#53 Posted by hxn on March 4, 2003 2:25:37 pm
sobia #35
``All I’m saying is there is NO justification for ANYONE’s killing``
don`t agree there either. the people who murdered Danny Pearl should be killed. the people who murdered 3,000 americans on sept 11, 2001 should be killed. the people who killed 200 in bali should be killed. and those that minimize the actions of these groups? talk about ``root causes`` and ``freedom struggles``? something should be done about them too b/c they allow these murderers to thrive...
tahmed
when someone talks about pearl`s murder, its understandable that you as a pakistani, might get defensive (like sobia). but the fact remains, his murder is tied to fundamental pakistani hatreds.
the evidence?
1.) as sadna pointed out in a previous post, omar sheikh was released from an indian jail through an airline hijacking a few years ago. pakistan let him roam free. why? b/c he was a terrorist in kashmir, killing foreigners and indians, and even ``law abiding`` pakistanis are sympathetic to this cause (not to mention willing to sell pakistan to anyone who`ll get kashmir - including al qaeda). if omar sheikh wasn`t killing people in kashmir, do you think you pakistanis would`ve let him go free?
2. people like sobia. look at the way she minimizes pearl, saying that people only care about him b/c he`s white and jewish. if that isn`t pakistani hatred, then what is? you, admirably, disavowed those views, but come on yaar, do you seriously think her views are in the minority amongst pakis...
truth hurts, doesn`t it?
``All I’m saying is there is NO justification for ANYONE’s killing``
don`t agree there either. the people who murdered Danny Pearl should be killed. the people who murdered 3,000 americans on sept 11, 2001 should be killed. the people who killed 200 in bali should be killed. and those that minimize the actions of these groups? talk about ``root causes`` and ``freedom struggles``? something should be done about them too b/c they allow these murderers to thrive...
tahmed
when someone talks about pearl`s murder, its understandable that you as a pakistani, might get defensive (like sobia). but the fact remains, his murder is tied to fundamental pakistani hatreds.
the evidence?
1.) as sadna pointed out in a previous post, omar sheikh was released from an indian jail through an airline hijacking a few years ago. pakistan let him roam free. why? b/c he was a terrorist in kashmir, killing foreigners and indians, and even ``law abiding`` pakistanis are sympathetic to this cause (not to mention willing to sell pakistan to anyone who`ll get kashmir - including al qaeda). if omar sheikh wasn`t killing people in kashmir, do you think you pakistanis would`ve let him go free?
2. people like sobia. look at the way she minimizes pearl, saying that people only care about him b/c he`s white and jewish. if that isn`t pakistani hatred, then what is? you, admirably, disavowed those views, but come on yaar, do you seriously think her views are in the minority amongst pakis...
truth hurts, doesn`t it?
#52 Posted by temporal on March 4, 2003 2:10:46 pm
sobia:
...to gain a better perspective i hope you have read # 47 in full…specially where it mentions shaikh omar...
....some other random thoughts that come to mind:
---think it was last year when mushy came to address the UN session...shaikh omar had already surrendered to isi the week before...but mushy was not informed of this...and he kept assuring his hosts that daniel`s murderer would soon be caught…it appeared that isi is a power unto itself…
---this shaikh omar character alongwith ‘maulana’ azhar of Jaish infamy languished in indian jails for years...the GOI failed royally to prosecute or bring charges against him...
…t
...to gain a better perspective i hope you have read # 47 in full…specially where it mentions shaikh omar...
....some other random thoughts that come to mind:
---think it was last year when mushy came to address the UN session...shaikh omar had already surrendered to isi the week before...but mushy was not informed of this...and he kept assuring his hosts that daniel`s murderer would soon be caught…it appeared that isi is a power unto itself…
---this shaikh omar character alongwith ‘maulana’ azhar of Jaish infamy languished in indian jails for years...the GOI failed royally to prosecute or bring charges against him...
…t
#51 Posted by tahmed32 on March 4, 2003 1:11:02 pm
Sobia #47 Sorry if I sounded more nasty than I meant to be (I must remember to be more precise in the level of nastiness in my post). :-) But seriously, isnt it sad that we cannot remember and mourn the appalling murder of a person who was a father, a husband, and son, and a brother without someone explaining that we are wrong in doing so?
And you are wrong in assuming that I am calling all Indians ``Lowlife`` on this board - please re-read carefully what I wrote, and you will see that I am referring to two individuals and putting you in their company. if you had been on chowk as long as I have been, I dont think you would disagree on my assessment of Jay. The only rational assessment I can think of is that the man has been driven mad by his hatred for Pakistan. But I did injustice to you and hxn (or whatever his name is) in lumping you with Jay. I have the pleasure of knowing many fine people from India, and Jay bears no relationship to them (other than in his own demented mind).
And you are wrong in assuming that I am calling all Indians ``Lowlife`` on this board - please re-read carefully what I wrote, and you will see that I am referring to two individuals and putting you in their company. if you had been on chowk as long as I have been, I dont think you would disagree on my assessment of Jay. The only rational assessment I can think of is that the man has been driven mad by his hatred for Pakistan. But I did injustice to you and hxn (or whatever his name is) in lumping you with Jay. I have the pleasure of knowing many fine people from India, and Jay bears no relationship to them (other than in his own demented mind).
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- Naqshbandi: quin: thanks for your... Translation of a (Love)
- quin: I don't know why... Translation of a (Love)
- Naqshbandi: I wrote 'love' in... Translation of a (Love)
- Naqshbandi: Tahir, I apologise for calling... Translation of a (Love)
- chaltahai: masadi, how would you... Translation of a (Love)
- mullah_toofani: Masadi baitay, You seem like... Translation of a (Love)
- masadi: g'night... Translation of a (Love)
- masadi: In #22 "facing" not... Translation of a (Love)
