Forgive me, Danny

Most of journalists work for different intlegence agencies, may be Dannial one of them , and all such type of jouranlists have to pay the price of their services

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A civilized ex President of MY civilized United States -- speaks out against the FOOLISH WAR -- about to be launched by our FOOLISH President -- at great PERILS to Peace and Security -- at home -- and RULE OF LAW -- abroad.

Here is an Op Ed column by President Jimmy Carter -- from todays New Yok Times:


a Just War -- or just a war?

By JIMMY CARTER


AATLANTA — Profound changes have been taking place in American foreign policy, reversing consistent bipartisan commitments that for more than two centuries have earned our nation greatness.

These commitments have been predicated on basic religious principles, respect for international law, and alliances that resulted in wise decisions and mutual restraint.

Our apparent determination to launch a war against Iraq, without international support, is a violation of these premises.

As a Christian and as a president who was severely provoked by international crises, I became thoroughly familiar with the principles of a just war, and it is clear that a substantially unilateral attack on Iraq does not meet these standards.

This is an almost universal conviction of religious leaders, with the most notable exception of a few spokesmen of the Southern Baptist Convention who are greatly influenced by their commitment to Israel based on eschatological, or final days, theology.

For a war to be just, it must meet several clearly defined criteria.

The war can be waged only as a last resort, with all nonviolent options exhausted.

In the case of Iraq, it is obvious that clear alternatives to war exist.

These options — previously proposed by our own leaders and approved by the United Nations — were outlined again by the Security Council on Friday.

But now, with our own national security not directly threatened and despite the overwhelming opposition of most people and governments in the world, the United States seems determined to carry out military and diplomatic action that is almost unprecedented in the history of civilized nations.

The first stage of our widely publicized war plan is to launch 3,000 bombs and missiles on a relatively defenseless Iraqi population within the first few hours of an invasion, with the purpose of so damaging and demoralizing the people that they will change their obnoxious leader, who will most likely be hidden and safe during the bombardment.

The war`s weapons must discriminate between combatants and noncombatants. Extensive aerial bombardment, even with precise accuracy, inevitably results in ``collateral damage.`` Gen. Tommy R. Franks, commander of American forces in the Persian Gulf, has expressed concern about many of the military targets being near hospitals, schools, mosques and private homes.

Its violence must be proportional to the injury we have suffered. Despite Saddam Hussein`s other serious crimes, American efforts to tie Iraq to the 9/11 terrorist attacks have been unconvincing.

The attackers must have legitimate authority sanctioned by the society they profess to represent.

The unanimous vote of approval in the Security Council to eliminate Iraq`s weapons of mass destruction can still be honored, but our announced goals are now to achieve regime change and to establish a Pax Americana in the region, perhaps occupying the ethnically divided country for as long as a decade.

For these objectives, we do not have international authority.

Other members of the Security Council have so far resisted the enormous economic and political influence (pressure) that is being exerted from Washington, and we are faced with the possibility of either a failure to get the necessary votes or else a veto from Russia, France and China.

Although Turkey may still be enticed into helping us by enormous financial rewards (bribes -- a crime) and partial future control of the Kurds and oil in northern Iraq, its democratic Parliament has at least added its voice to the worldwide expressions of concern.

The peace it establishes must be a clear improvement over what exists.

Although there are visions of peace and democracy in Iraq, it is quite possible that the aftermath of a military invasion will destabilize the region and prompt terrorists to further jeopardize our security at home.

Also, by defying overwhelming world opposition, the United States will undermine the United Nations as a viable institution for world peace.

What about America`s world standing if we don`t go to war after such a great deployment of military forces in the region?
__________________________________________________

The heartfelt sympathy and friendship offered to America after the 9/11 attacks, even from formerly antagonistic regimes, has been largely dissipated; increasingly unilateral and domineering policies have brought international trust in our country to its lowest level in memory.
______________________________________________________

American stature will surely decline further if we launch a war in clear defiance of the United Nations.

But to use the presence and threat of our military power to force Iraq`s compliance with all United Nations resolutions — with war as a final option — will enhance our status as a champion of peace and justice.(NYT)

arjun_m at # 110:


An average Abdul may not have to go to Madressa, but an average motooram or Gopinaath like you need to learn English first ;)

Read my reponses to Jay again. I was responding to him on intangible costs that he accuses Pakistan has incurred on the world through supporting Talibans.

The rest of your posts is out of the scope of the discussion that I had intended to undertake with Jay.

Btw, once again, are you and Jay twins?

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arjun_m at 105 and earlier post on the matter of costs:

Pakistan`s expenditure is proportionately higher, because of its attempt to reasonably match India`s expenditure. This is for its defense purposes. Note that my assumption is based on the fact that whereas India has made it known to the world that it aspires to become a global power, Pakistan has expressed no such desire.

And if Pakistan`s expenditure is proportionately higher, then you know another gamut of cost heads that India is adding through its unreasonably high defense related expense.

The rest of your taunts and complaints on numbers are ladyish and I have no desire to respond to them, unless you really want to lock horns on numbers game. But then, that will be another subject matter. The issue under discussion is `Costs`.

;)

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Tipu, Androscoggin # 104

Mohemmadan Anglo Oriental College, Aligarh had been formed by Muslims forty one years before BHU. It was renamed Aligarh Muslim University within five years of BHU establishment. If a person changes his name to Androscoggin, it doesn`t mean that he didnt exist before Androscoggin appeared, when he was called Tipu or other names.

Savarkar is not considered a cog. He was amongst the first Hindus to justify the use of religious violence against followers of other faiths for perceived injustices against Hindus. His doctrine led to a lot of bloodshed. Your article itself shows that he learnt this lesson from Islam. Can bloodshed be stopped without understanding and acknowledging this fact when Hindus and Muslims continue to live side by side in India and Pakistan?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


#97 by Manjit on March 6, 2003 9:32pm PT
Tipu,

As you noticed, Aligarh Muslim college had come into existence full four decades ahead of BHU.

Sarvarkar is just ONE cog in the wheel of vermin of communalism who think being Hindu entitles them to special rights!The other cogs are Shyama Prasad Mukherjee ,K.M. MUNSHI,Pt,Madan Mohon Malvia ,Business community of Dalmia & Birla (read thegrand daughters expose of grand father Dalmia)to most recent RETREAD of old tires by Koenrad Elstd(for being white german) Francis Gauthier (for being Whitre French)foolsHindutva still are impressed by Whites .Arun Shourie (only roped i b/c of Scathing criticizing Journalistic ability And Spewing venomin Koran translation ,Ramesh Rao ,Rajiv Malhotra ,etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.

What 4 decades before BHU ??Are you trying to pull fast one Manjit ?I know colleges even older than Aligarh Musl;im Oriental Colleges still there .DOnt compare COLLEGE with UNIVERSITY !

How many times Police made raid in BHU to investigate BJP VHP RSS etc.?



Even India Govts Raw or CID or BJP doesnt think Tableeq Jamaat is any org. Even if you want why you are suggesting as if Sarvarkar INVENTED Jan Sangh or Maha Sabha THAT WAS DONE BY others.

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#99 ahmadzai

[quote]
the cost of keeping 450-500 million of Indian population under poverty line through India`s unreasonable expenditure on defense.
[end-quote]

Indian expenditure on defense is under 3% of GNP. It is lower than the proportion spent by China (4.5%) and roughly a third of the proportion spent by Pakistan (somewhere between 8 and 15%, no one really knows). Most normal countries (I am not talking about Lichtenstien or Norway here) spend between 2 and 4 % of GNP on security-related expenses. So the only thing unreasonable here are your statements....

I understand that your imagination only a pacifist india is a good india. I understad that for pakistanis the only role model for India (but not for pakistan) are the opinions of Mahatma Gandhi on militarized nation states. Of course, you will never apply these ideas to Pakistan or China. After all, the former is a proud islamic country and must be heavily armed to terrorize the kafir. The latter is a supplier of arms to Pakistan and so must be allowed to militarize heavily.

Sigh ! Talk about ignorant people in glass houses....

Urstruly at # 91:

You wrote:
``The inter-ethnic carnage went through several stages; first it was Mohajir-Pakhtoon, when all others remained neutral, the it became Mohajir vs. Punjabi-Pakhtoon where Punjabis and Pakhtoons made an alliance and then it was Mohajir-Sindhi, while PP alliance remained neutral. ``

Your writing is self-explanatory. It was Mohajir versus all others one by one. I would again refer you to read Adnan`s response to me on the matter. Mr. Altaf Hussain made it a Mohajir versus other ethnic war on purpose instead of making it a oppressed versus establishment.

Btw, Please do not take me as an anti-Mohajir person. I may be anti-MQM, but I believe that any single ethnic group that could have given a competitive edge to Pakistan on the basis of economic prowess would be Mohajiris.

You wrote:
``MQM was split very late after 4-5 years of this inter-ethnic civil war.``

While establishment might have some role in it, basically Amer-Afaq lead more radical faction of MQM provided them a reason to do so. Do recall that when these two decided to quit MQM-Altaf, banners were quickly posted to ban their entries from all MQM areas. If you recall, these banners had read,`` Yahan Ghadaron ka daakhla mamnoo hay.``

Finally you correctly mentioned:
``LFO is a constitutional issue. It is being dealt in constitutional manner, right in the assembly.... ``

I agree with you, but boycotting the sessions of national assembly won`t help. Let the opposition discuss the matter in NA and if ruling party does not give it due consideration, take it to the court. Also opposition has to remember that more important issues than LFO are fighting corruption, poverty, Iraq and Kashmir issues, revamping of our education system, water related problems, etc.

Jay at # 98:

``YLH, if have any patriotism, if as you say you are dealing with the pak reality, make a monument for Samia Sarwari as reminder to that pak people about the nature of law in pakistan, where a woman can be killed infron of a world renowned lawer and the killer is honoured by the president of the country...... ``

While YLH may take some time to respond to this excellent post of yours, now I don`t understand how does the above compare with an event in secular and democratic India.

The leader of the march on Babri Mosque, which brought it down, and killer of Muslims in the ensuing Bombay riots has been elected as a Minister in India. The same person has now been elevated to the position of Deputy Prime Minister. A state minister followed in his footsteps in Gujrat and continues to rule unblamed.

;)

Jay at # 87:

``I did dish out some numbers about the kashmiris killed by the indian troops. Now as a typical pakistani you do not want to give some numbers to the afghan and kashmir shaheeds of pakistan. This is really pathetic, theses are the true un-countables of pakistan. From the local papaers, from the mosques, from the jihadic organisation, pl do come up with a number.``

While Adnan may take his time in responding to this excellent post, let me reply to at least one part that you have been raising lately:

I will give you the cost of Pakistani support to Talibans incurred more on ourselves than anybody else and some what offset by Pakistani support to Afghan refugees, as soon as someone gives me (preferably you) the cost of keeping 450-500 million of Indian population under poverty line through India`s unreasonable expenditure on defense.

``About the holier than thou attitude of mine, well I has said befor, I am a professional paki-basher..(there are two full stops after that)``

Please recall that I had suggested that you replace the first letter of your name i.e. `J` by the letter `G` due to your passive behaviour in taking all the bashing from all the chowksters;)

PAK TRAGEDY ylh

``Great Poem to bring back something I had internalized... In my letter to Friday Times last year (back in the good old Rutgers` days), which Marianne Pearl was kind enough to quote in New York Times, I had proposed a monument... if that ever goes through maybe we can put this poem on it Inshallah. ``

So I was correct, Aisha is hoping for the poem to be picked up by some american, hopefully jewish publisher.

YLH, if have any patriotism, if as you say you are dealing with the pak reality, make a monument for Samia Sarwari as reminder to that pak people about the nature of law in pakistan, where a woman can be killed infron of a world renowned lawer and the killer is honoured by the president of the country.

At the memorial please write that the elected representatives of the people refused to cndemn the killing because the killing is in tune with the book, the sheria court did not demand the review of the honour killing legitimisation bill, as it asked for a review of riba.

Tipu,

As you noticed, Aligarh Muslim college had come into existence full four decades ahead of BHU.

Savarkar was 23 years old in 1906. By that year, Muslim League had been formed, and a formal demand for separate electorate for Muslims had been submitted to the British.

In 1911, when Tabliq-e-Jamaat had been founded, savarkar was only 28. Even then, throughout his life, Savarkar remained at the fringes. Indian masses were with the Congress. Although the Congress had had prominent and respectable Muslims, Muslim League had decided not to work with them. Syed Ahmed had propounded that policty much before there was any Savarkar.

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Tipu # 89

Benares Hindu University was established in 1916.

Mohammadan Anglo Oriental College (MAO) in Aligarh had been established in 1875. In 1920, Mohammadan Anglo Oriental College was renamed as Aligarh Muslim University.

That means, the Mohammadan Anglo Oriental College had been operating for 41 years before Malviya founded the BHU.

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Urstruly Sahib,

In the past you have supported declaration of Ahmadis as non-Muslims, and partly blamed them for violence against them. You failed to condemn your own mullahs who are at the root of this violence and propaganda … and instead continue to attempt to malign Ahmadis.

In your posts (#77 and now 82) instead of addressing the obvious barbarism of your Islam … you go on to criticize Ahmadis. Your type assumes that those who do not subscribe to your fanaticism are liars and traitors … and quickly move on to shouting abuses. Intellectual and moral degradation brought about by such behavior has become the hallmark of fundamentalist fanatics. Your failure to admit this will ensure that you will continue to live in the gutter you currently exist in.

Coming back to your Islamic fanaticism, here is a short, bitter, and telling quote from Maudoodi, which is often echoed by the fundamentalists of nowadays. Enjoy.

“In our domain we neither allow any Muslim to change his religion nor allow any other religion to propagate its faith” – Maudoodi, Murtad ki saza Islami qanoon mein (“Punishment for Apostates in Islamic Law”), Lahore: Islamic Publications Ltd, 1981, 8th edition, page 32.

ahmadzai #75

Your account is not accurate on several basis.

First of all the split in MQM was created in earl 90`s, probably, in 1991, whereas inter-ethnic carnage was going on since 1986 when Bushra Zaidi died in a bus accident. The inter-ethnic carnage went through several stages; first it was Mohajir-Pakhtoon, when all others remained neutral, the it became Mohajir vs. Punjabi-Pakhtoon where Punjabis and Pakhtoons made an alliance and then it was Mohajir-Sindhi, while PP alliance remained neutral. MQM was split very late after 4-5 years of this inter-ethnic civil war.

As far as involvement of government/military in the civil war is concerned, perhaps the names like Ghaus Ali Shah and Jam Sadiq, Jam Ma`ashooq and Co. ring a bell.

LFO is a constitutional issue. It is being dealt in constitutional manner, right in the assembly. The overwhelming majority of people has refused to accept the diktat of a dictator which he calls a constitution. If constitutions are made that way then no doubt every gun-totting chootya in our country is running a fiefdom of his own. People by nature are law abiding.

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Dear Aisha,

Great Poem to bring back something I had internalized... In my letter to Friday Times last year (back in the good old Rutgers` days), which Marianne Pearl was kind enough to quote in New York Times, I had proposed a monument... if that ever goes through maybe we can put this poem on it Inshallah.


It is amazing how some people are so motivated by hate as to use every possible board to spurt out their verbiage of hate ... jay being the case in point... I have ignored him for so long but he still doesn`t cease from taking pot shots at me ... usually his claims are based on half truths lies and misquotes... I mean how long has it been since I last mentioned `Wolpert`? 2 years? Maybe more? He was perhaps one of the many authors I quoted and perhaps the one I used the least... yet since I don`t pay attention to Jay`s barking anymore he has taken to attack me poetically now...

If one doesn`t boast about one`s activities must it be assumed that he isn`t doing anything. I have been called all sorts of names by people here because unlike the self proclaimed social workers I use this board for simple academic discussion ... Unlike the arm chair social activists on this board, thank God I am today actively involved (IN REALITY not in CYBERSPACE) in stamping out injustice from the Pakistani society which is dearer to me than anything else in the world. We the Pakistanis have been victims of a warped military machine called the Pakistan Army... which sadly knows how to conquer its own people but knows very little of beating India. Late Zia ul Haq through his gun institutionalized discrimination against women and minorities... it takes something to fight against this in person... unlike many I am not sitting in the west spurting out long monologues... I am doing my part where it makes a difference.

I for one am not oblivious to the faults of my country... and my people. Only a fool will be... For Pakistan to succeed, it will have to come face to face with the skeletons in its closet and when I am done with it, there would be no more for hate mongerers like Jay to point fingers to.


A Tolerant, Progressive and liberal Pakistan Zindabad!

-YLH

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#83 by Tipu on March 5, 2003 9:22pm PT

What a waste of words (and space)!! And NOW, will you please let us know what you`re trying to say?

adnan,

I did dish out some numbers about the kashmiris killed by the indian troops. Now as a typical pakistani you do not want to give some numbers to the afghan and kashmir shaheeds of pakistan. This is really pathetic, theses are the true un-countables of pakistan. From the local papaers, from the mosques, from the jihadic organisation, pl do come up with a number.
About the holier than thou attitude of mine, well I has said befor, I am a professional paki-basher..(there are two full stops after that)

The sources said that based on the information gleaned from the documents, Pakistani officials believe that Al-Zawahiri, an Egyptian doctor who is thought to be the brains of Al Qaeda, slipped back into Pakistan after fleeing Afghanistan in October 2001, and hiding for some time in the Middle East. But Al-Zawahiri and Osama are not together, the sources said.

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed fled from Karachi last September after another key Al Qaeda operative, Ramzi bin Al Shibh, was captured, and went to Quetta. He left Quetta last month after one of his team members, identified as Asadullah, an Egyptian by nationality, was picked up during a joint FBI-ISI raid. He moved first to Lahore, then to Rawalpindi, the sources said.

////adnan, take it easy, the above is from dawn, it is not holier than thou from me. This only shows the roots of taliban in pakistan, the sfe houses the links,

#76 adnan_rafiq

Thanks for your note. Now you are talking about ground realities and problem solving, not all kinds of one-sided ``historical injustice`` stories of which there is an infinite supply in South Asia.

You should be aware that Nawaz and Vajpayee came very close to making some kind of start at settlement of J&K issues. Post-Kargil and Musharraf there is very little room in India for adjustments, flexibility etc. With the indian general elections looming in 2004, there will be little or no room for maneuver. I do not think any indian leader will deal with Musharraf for the next few years anyway.

I think the best bet is to calm the situation down (no more jihadis) in the area and wait it out. The general indian offer in this space is also been clear for some time. Some kind of autonomy deal for Kashmir with stronger integration of Ladakh and Jammu within India, soft borders for Kashmiri residents on both sides of the LOC. I think the pakistanis can feel that helped the Kashmiris win ``azadi`` (autonomy), the indians can feel that J&K remains within the indian orbit and constitution.

None of this can happen while Kashmir liberation days are being celebrated in Pakistan and public support for jihad continues to be displayed. So for now the situation is hard to change. The best we can do is minimize suffering of the people of J&K.

#84 Tipu

Do you have a reading problem? Or maybe some kind of mental disorder? Your hate-ridden and racist statements towards brahmins have nothing to do with the article I posted.

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Sattar that does it……I told you I am against anti-Quadiani laws along with proof but you unnecessarily blasted me. For that Sattar…….. tujh peh khuda ki la’anat kay das laakh jootay barsaiN, 1 la’anat, 2 la’anat, 3 la’anat, 4 la’anat, 4 la’anat, ……200 la’anat, 201 la’anat, 202 la’anat, la’anat, la’anat, la’anat, la’anat, 204 la’anat, …… 578 la’anat, 579 la’anat, 580 la’anat, ……994 la’anat, 995 la’anat, 996 la’anat, 997 la’anat, la’anat, 998 la’anat, 999 la’anat, 1000 la’anat.

Urstruly Sahib,

You are displaying signs of hopelessness … and prolonged intellectual decay. You have given up on the defense of “Islamic” practices of killing people for apostasy, adultery, blasphemy … waging war on polytheists just because … and social benefits of persecuting innocent Ahmadis. Your Islam is dead and rotting … and making a big stink. And you are dealing with it by taking your frustration out on Ahmadis.

You suggest that … one should not criticize the hard liners since it will only make their attitude stricter. So should I write poetry in their praise? If you folks cannot accept your basic faults … then go jump off a cliff. The world is better off without idiots like you. You cannot hold a nation hostage and expect to be showered with sympathy and understanding.

Mirza Sahib’s words you quoted … are consistent with the spirit of Quran … that there was no Islamic basis for waging jihad against the British. This position was favored by several, not all, thinkers and scholars of his time … who supported the British for putting an end to oppression of Muslims at the hands of some fanatic Hindu and Sikh elements in some parts of India. Your mullahs were only interested in war mongering and hatred and were therefore upset with the Ahmadi-Muslim community. It is worth pointing out that … while claiming to be peaceful and loving folks … your mullahs advocate waging war against others for merely preaching their beliefs! It is clear who is a fanatic here.

It is this fundamentalist culture of hatred, oppression, and violence that is mainly responsible for the current conflict. My prayers and sympathies are always with the innocent folks … whoever or wherever they are. If I fail to show much sympathy for the rabid hate mongers of your kind … I claim innocence on grounds of sanity and civility.

+++++++++++++

Tahmed Sahib, thanks for the message … I am sure I would have missed it otherwise. Thanks, once again.

stuka #72 I wasnt thinking of people like you when I referred to to the ``educated specimen``. I was thinking of people young master arjun and jay.
Chowk is indeed time pass and no big deal. Some people pass time by discussing issues with a view to developing a better understanding, some joke around a bit, others share experiences, others share their knowledge. That is all fine.
The ``specimen`` I was referring to in my post to hxn are the ones, like Arjun and Jay whose posts reflect deep rooted hatreds that ooze through their posts, and who obviously suffer from inferiority complexes that they are constantly trying to compensate for by crowing on chowk.

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Urstruly at # 69:

``THe question is not whether 1 mohajir was killed by state or 10,000, the question is of extra-judicial murders. State has no authority .... In this case state has overstepped its authority under local constitution, law, and recognized international laws. ``

That was a particular event in which Genaral Nasirullah Khan Babar committed the excesses under the leadership of Benazir Bhutto. All the opposition parties, including the Pakhtoon Nationalist ANP, and the sucussive Governments have protested those excesses.

``A report was published by the GOP in 2001, which admitted that since 1986, about 35,000+ people were killed in Karachi because of ethnic violence. The loss of property and productivity was in billions of rupees. The independent sources put the casualty figure into 50Ks.``

Most of them were killed by the two fighting factions of MQM. More Mohajirs were killed than any other ethnic group by these two factions. You only have to ask, for example, the widow of Mr. Azeem Tariq, who saw the escaping murderers and identified them as belonging to Mr. Hussain`s faction of MQM.

``As for your question of ethnic cleansing goes, I am a witness to the murder and a survivor...., who were fleeing in their own country to save their lives. ``

My friend, when I graduated from my school in the USA, I took my first job in Karachi with an evironmental organization. I am also a witness to the fracas. If some body tells me it was state apparatus, I would laugh at him/her. An interesting story: I was perhaps the only Pakistani Dulla who had to marry my sweet heart in almost a bald head due to 13 stitches on my head received by some MQM activists who were bent upon occupying a public park.

While organizing a function for the then girl heart-throb musical band the Arid Zone, I was almost killed by MQM Goondas, because they had demanded from me 300 free entrances in a hall that only housed 374 (FTC Building`s Auditorium). Since we had to raise funds, my wife and I, during the first days of our marriage, had to run to Alazam or Alkaram Plaza near Liaqatabad # 10 (I don`t recall the correct name now) to beg mercy. I still recall KK toting 16 to 20 year old boys very courteously guiding us to the meeting place of all the MQM parliamentarians, where a youngishg MQM provincial member from Gulshan e Iqbal (Saleem Shahzad, if I remember correctly) helped us out by accepting on behalf of MQM 20 passes. In the ensuing chaos he too disappeared as MQM activists turned against him.

``The murder of Mohajirs by state apparatus in early `90s qualifies as genocide if you look up the dictionary. ``

After the failure of the so called MQM rebellion, several of the young member leaders of the MQM changed their identities due to the threat from MQM diehards and are living happily ever since then. Some other fled to Australia and South Africa.

``The military establishment of Paksitan started this ethnic violence in `80s to break the political clout of PPP in rural sindh and that of JI in urban sindh......Mohajir group and sided with other to establish its government in sindh after lota elections. ``

I would refer you to Adnan`s response to me in this regard. Your solution seems to be to criticize Pakistani Government and its followers instead of focusing our attention on our enemies. Its like the MMA leaders who once said if Pakistan continued to side with the USA against Talibans then ``humm iss mulk ka jarain hilla day ga``. Wah bhai wah, yarra toom dushman ko berbaad karnay kay bajay mulk ka khana kharab kerta hay ;)

Where are are the constitutional rights of the people?

Constututional rights of the people can neither be won by getting UK citizenship and living comfortably in London, or in Dubai, or by avoiding struggle and settling for exile in Saudi Arabia, nor it can be won by raising non-issues like LFO, co-education, ban on liqor, etc as is being done by MMA.

You have to take the route taken by people like Nelson Mendela.

pmishra: I agree, Musharraf is a clown. If peace is to happen, it is going to be despite our armed forces or jehadis. There are a growing number of people in Pakistan who are equally tired of Kashmir (the fact that we celebrate Kashmir Day has more to do with taking the day off, trust me) and the role our military plays. We also understand that issue of Kashmir is kept alive to justify the massive military budget and the subsequent bungalows and expensive cars of our generals and brigadiers.

However, if peace is to take root in the sub-continent both of us have to meet in the middle somewhere. But, the Indians idea of peace is `my way or the highway`. I have seen three attitudes so far:

1 - Indians are too powerful and, as such, do not need peace with an insignificant Pakistan. Since, India now owns the laathi, it is completely ethical to own the bhains too. Compromise means that Pakistan should forget about Kashmir because its already occupied by India. No need for discussions or negotiations. This, I believe, is the view of Jay and arjun. Obviously, this line of reasoning leaves very little room for compromise from the Pakistani side.

2 - Indians are too benign and must act tough with Pakistan. All the internal troubles of India are a result of ISI intrigues. Vajpayee, after Lahore Yatra and the Kargil debacle, is now a firm believer of this approach. Obviously, this makes the hawks of BJP extremely happy.

3 - The `cross-border terrorism` theme is repeated ad nauseum and the goal is to get Pakistan declared a terrorist nation. If this is to happen, the consequences won`t be much different than Iraq, i.e. the military would grow stronger and its only the common Pakistani who would suffer. I understand that an average Indian is not happy with the Pak Army, but this course of action puts me, a common Pakistani, in the direct path of harm. If Indians understand this and still insist on following the `cross-border terrorism` route than obviously it becomes a matter of my survival, and there is no way in hell I would like to be friendly with them.

From the Indian perspective, I wish that they can cultivate an understanding that the real problem is Pak military (and its extension, i.e. the terrorist aka jehadis) not the common Pakistani. Up until the eighties I believe that was the case. However, with the success of BJP and a rise in fundamentalism in India, the country has lost the moral edge. Fundamentalism is a slippery rope. You`ll end up in the bowels of bigotry, hatred and violence before you know it. But, it seems that Indians are all too willing to slide down this rope because of their hatred for Muslims and Pakistan.

Sattar

I see that you are glad to see the basic human rights of Pakistanis being violated by their own government. I don’t think that your comments will help Quadiani cause, in any way or form. On the other hand it will make the work of moderates, who want to change the system from with in the system, more difficult because such comments are sure to make the attitude of hardliners stricter.

But if you are making such comments to offer your services as Northern Alliance on Pakistanis, then I am sorry to say that the job is already taken. Pakistan Army has offered their services first and they got the job. I am not surprised by your comments, because you are the descendent of one who offered his services to another colonial aggressor, in another time, the British Crown in these words:

``After the death of my father and brother I led a retired life. But nevertheless I have been employing my pen in the service of British Government. In all the works that I have written I have preached loyality to and sympathy with the British Government I have made effective speeches against Jehad. I wrote books in Arabic and Persian costing me thousands of rupees (Italics added) . All those books were disseminated in Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Egypt, Baghdad and Afghanistan. I am sure they will bear fruit some day...... wrote many works out of sincere loyality to the British Government otherwise I had little to gain by sending them in Arabia, Syria and Islamic world.”

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Tohafa-e-Qaisarya (A Present to the Queen ) Qadian, 1897 p. 27

Adnan:

``But, not a single Indian is willing to admit it...``

...to Pakistanis. No Indian thinks that everything in Kashmir is hunky dory. But admitting it to a Pakistani is tough because there is a territorial claim attached to it.

If Pakistan were to say, we give up claim on the land, just remove the army and enforce human rights, the situation would improve. Ofcourse, things would not be great, but that`s coz things are not great anywhere in India.

Beisdes, why do you waste time reading Jay`s posts in any case?

TAhmed:

``average person in the subcontinent has more sense than the ``educated specimen`` who visit chowk for purposes of engaging in India-Pakistan self-aggrandizement and mutual-insult competitions. ``

Oh c`mon...I am an educated ``specimen`` and I frequently take part in mutual insult competitions. But c`mon, it`s just time pass. I believe that most people in real life would remarkably be more sophisticated. God knows, I get on well with Pakistanis in real life, though, we still occaisionally trade insults. Its a guy thing. You shouldn`t take it too seriously.

Sattar2:

``Ground reality is that you mullahs are screaming for civil rights and due process … because you are now dealing with someone who carries a bigger stick. ``

Exactly, My dear Sir. Exactly!!! The hypocricy of the Mullahs is astounding. The Taliban did diddly squat for human rights, but cry and moan when theres are violated.

adnan_rafiq #64

[quote]
The fact remains that India has never honored Nehru`s promise to the U.N. for a plesbicite in Kashmir.
[/quote]

Do you have any knowledge of the conditions of this plebiscite? The very first condition is the complete withdrawal of all non-indian forces from ALL of J&K. Do you think this condition can ever be fulfilled? Why did Pakistan refuse to act on this from 1948 to 1971?

We can all selectively pick up bits of history and fling it in each others faces. This propaganda is the trademark of forces like the VHP which emphasize only one incomplete aspect of history in terms of hindu-muslim relations. You are doing exactly the same thing with respect to J&K.

The solution to J&K has been on offer since Vajpayee`s brave trip to Lahore. But the pakistani military and jihadis cannot accept it. Hence Kargil, hence the public affirmations of the Kashmir jihad, the ludicrous Agra summit in which reasonable people all over india concluded that Musharraf was an irresponsible clown.

You can keep going with your victim complex and tours to naive and uninformed parties. You can keep on funding murder and terrorism (and then wonder why there is extremist violence in your society!!). Or you can work for a practical solution which respects ground realities.

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ahmadzai#67

THe question is not whether 1 mohajir was killed by state or 10,000, the question is of extra-judicial murders. State has no authority to use its apparatus to murder any citizen under absolutely no circumstances. Otherwise, it fails the purpose of having a judiciary or even of establishment of a civilized society. In this case state has overstepped its authority under local constitution, law, and recognized international laws.

A report was published by the GOP in 2001, which admitted that since 1986, about 35,000+ people were killed in Karachi because of ethnic violence. The loss of property and productivity was in billions of rupees. The independent sources put the casualty figure into 50Ks.

As for your question of ethnic cleansing goes, I am a witness to the murder and a survivor. I have survived this civil war through four years and lived to tell, when rest of the country is in denial and suffering from collective amnesia. I have seen mass migrations of Pathans, Punjabis, Sindhis, and Mohajirs from each others areas. I have witnessed the trains full of families leaving from Karachi to Punjab and upper Sindh. There were camps established in Sadiqabad and Bahawalpur to give relief to those refugees, who were fleeing in their own country to save their lives.

The murder of Mohajirs by state apparatus in early `90s qualifies as genocide if you look up the dictionary.

The military establishment of Paksitan started this ethnic violence in `80s to break the political clout of PPP in rural sindh and that of JI in urban sindh. They are the one who have occupied the major resources of this land. Because of this the economic disparity and unconstitutional distribution of revenues has created discontent between the provinces. This situation has not gotten any better. This government has not done any different. They have again used state apparatus against one Mohajir group and sided with other to establish its government in sindh after lota elections.

Where are the constitutional rights of the people?

jay #64:
Jay, those who live in glass houses don`t throw rocks at others. No one`s denying that Pakistan did not commit attrocities in the name of religion. No one`s denying our shameful role in Afghanistan and the support of terrorist activities in Kashmir or the way we treat our minorities. And, I am not stupid to expect a handful of New Hampshire lawmakers to put a dent in American foreign policy visavis Pakistan and India. But, the fact remains that they went there and saw something that runs contrary to all the claims made by Vajpayee and the rest of the saffron brigade. But, as usual not a single Indian has bothered to accept that perhaps there is some truth in it. Its complete denial as usual. As far as they are concerned the lawmakers are compulsive liars. Isn`t it?

I am not out here to prove that Pakistan is better or to support the policies of our armed forces. I don`t. I have said many times that Pakistan should get out of Kashmir immediately and focus on its internal problems (which seem to be growing exponentially) first. Also, given the size of India (in terms of size, population and economy) it is a suidical attempt for Pakistan to try to achieve parity. This competition will hurt Pakistan a lot more than India. But, given the stranglehold our military has on all aspects of Pakistani life, I am not holding my breath.

However, I do have a problem with the `holier than thou` attitude of many Indians. The fact remains that the Indian army has also committed crimes in Kashmir - murders, rapes, harassment, illegal arrests, etc. These facts are acknowledged by many international humanitarian agencies including Amnesty Internationa, and now the lawmakers. The fact remains that India has never honored Nehru`s promise to the U.N. for a plesbicite in Kashmir. The fact remains that Kashmiris are not happy with the current Indian government. Yes, they are not happy with the terrorists who cross over from Pakistan (please note that I am calling them terrorists not jehadis or freedom fighters), but that does not mean that all is hunky dory for Kashmiris. But, not a single Indian is willing to admit it. Instead of admitting the merciless slaughtering of Muslims or sikhs in the eighties, you guys are busy telling us about Taliban, Afghanistan and madrassas.

Adnan Rafiq at # 30:

``But, the attrocities committed by Benazir and Naseer-ullah Babar during the early nineties come very close to the definition of genocide. Extra-judicial killings, false arrests, harassement of family members, intimidation of local newspapers, etc. were the order of the day during their time. Perhaps, a more balanced approach would divide the blame equally between MQM and the establishment.``

I have problem with the over-utilized words of genocide (killing of an ethnic group) and ethnic cleansing. How do you campare targetted killing of less than 100 MQM activists (let us take a maximum of 1,000 or let us even go beyond that and take 5,000) with the following:

1. The killing of 700,000 Jews by Germans during the WW2 that is termed a genocide.
2. The killing of 200,000 Tootsies by Hootoes that has also been termed a genocide.
3. The death and destruction of Bosnians, Croats and others (well over 100,000 by Serbians that has been termed ethnic cleansing.
4. The report of NH parliamentarians that you have referred to arjun_m is also talking about genocide (take the usually quoted figure of 75,000 by Pakistanis).

IMHO, MQM`s killings cannot be termed either a genocide or an ethnic cleansing. But I agree that even this is not permissible.

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Perceptive comment from an Indian Express columnist. Syed Naqvi has also made similar points in his writing.
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Fighting Barista Brahminism?


The VHP and the rise and rise of ‘Shudra Hindutva’


Sagarika Ghose




When members of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad assembled in New Delhi last week they complained that they were treated with scorn. They said English-speaking secularists made fun of them. They said they were ridiculed by the ‘Macaulayist’ media.

The VHP-Bajrang Dal has, over the last decade, added a new enemy to their list of evil influences on Hindu rashtra. Not just the Muslim and the Christian, but also the ‘English speaking’ ‘western educated’ class, exemplified in the persona of the ‘secularist’. The secularist is not recognised merely by his stance on the Babri masjid or the Shah Bano case or on terrorism. Instead, a secularist is anyone who listens to western music, eats in Italian restaurants or does not sport a tilak and dhoti. A secularist is an upper caste individual employed in a corporate job or the private sector. As Pravin Togadia never tires of saying,‘‘Our enemies are the Three Ms: Muslims, Macaulayists and Marxists.’’ Togadia hates secularists but loves the fact that they exist because without them he would lose his “son of the soil” appeal. “Please argue with me,” he pleads.


Yet Togadia’s critique conceals the increasing class and caste anger of the VHP. The VHP’s new definition of ‘Brahminism’ is anyone who is urban, educated and drinks cappuccino at Barista. As a VHP worker said, “Today we may riot against Muslims, tomorrow we will fight against Brahmin dogs if the need arises.”

When the VHP was first formed in the sixties as a loose organisation to feed into the programmes of the RSS and strengthen Hindu feelings among the diaspora, among its founders were Brahmins like K.M. Munshi and Ramaprasad Mookerjee. Subsequently during the Ramjanmabhoomi movement, caste differences were suppressed in the overall mission of creating a Hindu monolith. But over the last decade, the VHP has become transformed from an organisation of traders, petty industrialists and provincial bureaucrats to a grouping whose cadres are made up predominantly of Other Backward Castes (OBCs). As Manjari Katju writes in the recently published Vishwa Hindu Parishad and Indian Politics, “with change in social composition, the VHP’s language of mobilisation changed from mild socio-religious criticism to a vitriolic attack on the entire social and political ideology of the state”.

As part of the deliberate campaign of ‘social engineering’ and bringing lower castes back to the Hindu fold, the VHP-BD is as much a party of Shudras as it is of Brahmins, for whom strident oratory is in fact a deliberate drama enacted to gain votes and social recognition.

Take a spot poll. Earlier generations of the VHP leadership may have been Kayastha like Giriraj Kishore or Bania like Ashok Singhal. But new generations are all OBCs or Shudras. Pravin Togadia? Patel, sometimes classed as ‘Backwards’. Narendra Modi? OBC. Uma Bharti? OBC. Vinay Katiyar of the Bajrang Dal? OBC. Acharya Dharmendra? OBC. Sadhvi Rithambhara? OBC. Kalyan Singh? OBC. The VHP is thus, today, a movement that has been described by a Dalit historian as a movement of ‘Shudra Hindutva’. VHP Hindutva was once obsessed with the aim of bridging caste divides in the creation of the Hindu vote. But now it increasingly sees itself as anti upper-caste, anti-English and anti-metropolitan. In the VHP’s terms, even BJP members like Jaswant Singh or Arun Jaitley or Arun Shourie or even Vajpayee himself are all the ‘secularist’ enemy.

Today certain VHP workers claim a self-image akin to the revolutionaries of the French revolution, who guillotined the elite on the street. “Why do you accuse us of being violent? Didn’t the French kill their rajas and ranis?” Some VHP members say that their hero is Parashuram, slayer of upper castes. They speak of the need to fight the “new Brahmins”, who must be “fought because of their monopoly on English-language education, employment and access to international careers”. While the RSS may be made of genteel Brahmin patriarchs, the Shudra Hindutva of the VHP is a violent protest movement against all elitism, a social revolution aimed to snatch power from the speakers of angrezi and the wearers of bell bottoms. “Shudra Hindutva” is not only fiercely competitive with Muslims but also enraged at being left out of the new economy.

In the anti-Muslim riots in north India in the eighties, Kurmis, Jats and other OBCs formed the main fighting force. The VHP cadres in Gujarat are predominantly OBC. It was the OBCs in the Gujarat Bajrang Dal, not Brahmins or Banias, who were the frontrunners of the attacks against Muslims. OBCs are seen to be more anti-Muslim than Brahmins precisely because their professions place them in direct competition. A Muslim artisan’s or a Muslim tailor’s main competitor is not the Hindu Brahmin or the Hindu Kshtriya but the Hindu OBC.

Many OBC fortunes have been made by membership in the VHP or Bajrang Dal. The BJP’s trishul distribution campaigns in Rajasthan are taking place among OBCs, apart from Dalits and Adivasis, with the promise to hand them Kshtriya status and an avenue for upward mobility. Membership in the VHP thus provides a higher caste status in the Hindu hierarchy. Also, OBC youth who fail their school-leaving examinations or suffer academically because of the lack of English, can often find employment in the VHP. There are many instances of ABVP activists or Reddy businessmen not only becoming affluent through membership of the VHP but also acquiring liquor contracts, real estate and licences to set up private colleges.

The Congress has failed to understand OBC aspirations. The OBC parties led by Laloo Prasad Yadav and Mulayam Singh Yadav are in mutual competition with the VHP, but one only has to cast one’s eye at the chic Diggy Raja to the Scindia scion, to trendies like Aiyar, Soni, Alva and Nath, to realise that the leadership of the Congress is still suvarna and paternalistic. The restless new cadres powering their way into the VHP and the BJP cannot be won over by pointing them towards Kabir’s pluralism or the excellent bhajans of Mirabai. What they are looking for is a counter-identity that provides social status, seats in Parliament but, most importantly, the jobs and privileges of the English-speaking class. They may not ever get these jobs, but the VHP provides, at least, a place in the social sun. Togadia who grew up in an Ahmedabad chawl may never get to play tennis at the Delhi Gymkhana but being in the VHP has guaranteed him a place in a television studio

adnan 45

``And never have I seen an Indian to mention the human cost of oppression at the hand of their armed forces in Kashmir and the human cost of Muslims slaughtered in Gujrat as the police and other authorities stood at the side lines.``

Pl read dawn, the daily report to the jihadic supporters in various parts of the world. There are 70,000 killed in kashmir, 800,000 troops in srinagar, 8000 muslims killed in gujarat.

Now can you tell me how many shaheeds in pakistan, the type that left the madrassa, went looking for the kafirs to kill, the archetypal homo erectus pakistanicus. Tell me adnan, how many killed, sorry, martyred in afghanistan, how many in kashmir. As a pakistani, no one keeps count, they are the un-countables of pakistan, the men driven by the species specific urge to kill homo sapiens. There is no ther country in the world today where men have gone of their own volition, no ecnomic incentives, but the raw urge to kill in the promise of a heaven. Adnan, pakistan is singular in this achievement to the extent that anthropologists have coined a new term, hono erectus pakistanicus.

FORGIVE ME SAMIA SARWAR,

I know my name is similar to yours,
only an ``i`` is missing
Stll I cannot remeber your name
It is strange that a man cross the border
That too a horrible hindoo
Keeps your name alive

I talked to tahmed about you
And he said that your were no-innocent
And according to tahmed
That is certain jihadic death

I talked to YLH about you
He quoted from wolpert
He quoted from one speach
And he kept quoting, I left him alone.

I still cannot remeber you
Many like you are dead
Why should you be special
Because I could be you tomorrow.

A poem NOt by Ayesha Sarwari

Urstruly …

While you are working on explaining the peaceful aspects of your Islam … feel free to also shed light on the peaceful aspects of killing people for apostasy and adultery …

I know hotel California is one thing … and its unplugged version was a bad idea … but must we drag this nonsense into real life … and hunt people down like hound dogs … if, after once flirting with the idea of waiting for 70 chicks in the hereafter, they decided that a bird in hand is better than two in the bush?

So they get to pick … either do the nasty and get killed for adultery … or revoke their pledge to the Almighty and get killed for apostasy. I know a choice between coke and pepsi is always good … but isn’t this death-fatwa thing pushing the limits too far? And besides, what good has your Islam done to your goat-screwing Arab leaders anyway … they cannot even hold a f#%king summit on Iraq … without shouting obscenities and death threats to each other. The live telecast was taken off the air … I read recently.

I know you got angry when Junior warned … “either you are with us, or against us” … but he was probably quoting from your Quran or a book on ahadith. After all … you are the one to tell us that Mohammad had people killed for merely making fun of him … and that Quran commands us to wage jihad against those worshipping cows and kangaroos.

Ground reality is that you mullahs are screaming for civil rights and due process … because you are now dealing with someone who carries a bigger stick. You started this mess … now deal with it. Or better yet … with one hand holding your shalwar above the ankles … grab a talwar in the other hand … yell takbeer … and make a dash towards that big white building. You’ll become famous overnight … and will immediately get to make out with 70 chicks all at once!

hxn #59 I think we have had a reasonable discussion, even if we have somewhat different views on the situation regarding religious extremism in India vs. Pakistan.
I think we both agree that religious extremism is a problem in both countries. Whether religious extremism is a bigger problem in India than in Pakistan, and whether there is broader based support for religious extremism than in India than in Pakistan is something we could debate ad nauseum, but it would be a bit like debating which of the two ugly sisters is uglier.
Instead, I think let us both wish all the best to the future of this armpit of the world we call home (i.e. the subcontinent), and let us both be thankful that the average person in the subcontinent has more sense than the ``educated specimen`` who visit chowk for purposes of engaging in India-Pakistan self-aggrandizement and mutual-insult competitions.
Cheers :-)

Correction to #58
In 1999 clemency petitions were filed with the President of India. In 2001, and after Sonia Gandhi`s appeal to award clemency, the death sentence of one of them who was a woman with a child was commuted to life imprisonment. The other 3 have not been hanged yet.

tahmed # 55

i`ll concede that point.

the brutal murder of the christian missionaries and his children was absolutley sick and a huge blot on india, as has been all the communal violence in recent years including Gujurat.

and i also concede that these events are related to larger trends in indian society.

i hope that the slow march to market reform and greater freedom that pluralistic india has embarked on will allow us to overcome these evils.

i might be on shakier ground here and few pakis on this board may believe me, but as you, even when i put ``the ritual`` indo-pak contest aside, i do feel pakistan is in worse shape. the pearl murder is directly linked to sept. 11, to kashmir, and the fundamental muslim resentments/inferiority complexes about other religions and peoples that led to the creation of the country in the first place - just an ever downward spiraling whirlwind of hate. but hey, that`s just my take.

temporal
GOI failed royally? They were in jail, thats the maximum punishment one usually gets in India. People donot get death sentences arbitrarily in India like in Pakistan. Death sentenceas are handed out only in the rarest of the rare cases. Even Rajiv Gandhi`s killers/conspirators went through very long court and clemency process. One of them was finally granted clemency and the others were executed only last year or so.

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hxn #54 And so, would you extend your logic and attribute the murders of the christian missionaries in India, or the Gujrat burnings of families, to the fundamental hatreds of Indians?
Murderers roam free in Pakistan, and that is bad indeed. But let me humbly point out that criminals win elections and become Chief Ministers in India, as in case of Modi. And that is very very bad indeed.

Having performed the ritual India-Pakistan contest, let me say seriously that as a Pakistani I am angry that the Pakistan government has allowed known murderers from India go free in Pakistan. We should these criminals back to India - we have enough criminals of our own polluting society, we dont need any more.

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PS: apologies!...the post # is 42.

sobia #35

``All I’m saying is there is NO justification for ANYONE’s killing``

don`t agree there either. the people who murdered Danny Pearl should be killed. the people who murdered 3,000 americans on sept 11, 2001 should be killed. the people who killed 200 in bali should be killed. and those that minimize the actions of these groups? talk about ``root causes`` and ``freedom struggles``? something should be done about them too b/c they allow these murderers to thrive...

tahmed

when someone talks about pearl`s murder, its understandable that you as a pakistani, might get defensive (like sobia). but the fact remains, his murder is tied to fundamental pakistani hatreds.

the evidence?

1.) as sadna pointed out in a previous post, omar sheikh was released from an indian jail through an airline hijacking a few years ago. pakistan let him roam free. why? b/c he was a terrorist in kashmir, killing foreigners and indians, and even ``law abiding`` pakistanis are sympathetic to this cause (not to mention willing to sell pakistan to anyone who`ll get kashmir - including al qaeda). if omar sheikh wasn`t killing people in kashmir, do you think you pakistanis would`ve let him go free?

2. people like sobia. look at the way she minimizes pearl, saying that people only care about him b/c he`s white and jewish. if that isn`t pakistani hatred, then what is? you, admirably, disavowed those views, but come on yaar, do you seriously think her views are in the minority amongst pakis...

truth hurts, doesn`t it?

sobia:

...to gain a better perspective i hope you have read # 47 in full…specially where it mentions shaikh omar...

....some other random thoughts that come to mind:

---think it was last year when mushy came to address the UN session...shaikh omar had already surrendered to isi the week before...but mushy was not informed of this...and he kept assuring his hosts that daniel`s murderer would soon be caught…it appeared that isi is a power unto itself…

---this shaikh omar character alongwith ‘maulana’ azhar of Jaish infamy languished in indian jails for years...the GOI failed royally to prosecute or bring charges against him...

…t

Sobia #47 Sorry if I sounded more nasty than I meant to be (I must remember to be more precise in the level of nastiness in my post). :-) But seriously, isnt it sad that we cannot remember and mourn the appalling murder of a person who was a father, a husband, and son, and a brother without someone explaining that we are wrong in doing so?
And you are wrong in assuming that I am calling all Indians ``Lowlife`` on this board - please re-read carefully what I wrote, and you will see that I am referring to two individuals and putting you in their company. if you had been on chowk as long as I have been, I dont think you would disagree on my assessment of Jay. The only rational assessment I can think of is that the man has been driven mad by his hatred for Pakistan. But I did injustice to you and hxn (or whatever his name is) in lumping you with Jay. I have the pleasure of knowing many fine people from India, and Jay bears no relationship to them (other than in his own demented mind).

adnan_rafiq #45

This hilarious news item has gotten quite a lot of play in the paki press.

Do you even have any idea what the New Hampshire Legislator`s actual job function is? It is local issues like hunting and education in the state of New Hampshire. They have not the slightest relationship to any foreign policy issue. Besides, after this the local indians will be all over them like flies over honey. So it may be the least you hear from them on this issue.

I think you should get in contact with some other groups as well. They would all be happy to have a junket out to Pakistan or elsewhere. Here are some others:

Traffic Police in Toledo, OH
Mayor of SomeZeroTown, CA
Sanitation Workers Union of NY

Please have them issue statements about US foreign policy and even take them to Pakistan (oops, some of the infidel may not make it back!).

Sobia
The reason why Pearl`s death was a significant event for some Indians was that Omar Shiekh, one of the conspirators in Pearl`s kidnapping had kidnapped foreigners in India before and had been arrested when those kidnapped were freed(one Indian police officer was killed during the rescue).

The group Harkat Mujahiddeen which hijacked an Indian Airline to get Omar Shiekh freed from Indian jail a few years later had also kidnapped other foreigners in J&K in early 90s and even beheaded one of them. One of the rest escaped, the others are still missing and their wives used to make yearly visits to India to appeal to militant groups(they even met Omar Shiekh in jail) to give any news of their husbands. So what Ms Daniel Pearl wnet through, other women had already been put through by this same group.

And all this was known to the Pakistani govt. all along, but they not only refused to extradite to India Omar Shiekh and his group, guilty of kidnappings, multiple murders, hijacking of an airline(and killing a newly married Indian passenger during the hijack), but also allowed them to walk free and operate freely in Pakistan and as consequence they could do what they pleased with Daniel Pearl. Even when Omar Shiekh was arrested by Pakistani police, it was only after he had spent a week with the Pakistani intelligence agencies after surrendering to them.

At the time of his death, Daniel Pearl was on the trail of jihadi groups and had just written an article from Bahawalpur about how the Pakistani govt. had done nothing about the increasing jihadi activities of Jaish-e-Mohammad, a group started by another guy, former HuM, also released in the Indian Airlines hijack.

The Daniel Pearl murder was certainly not just any random murder. Its in Pakistanis own interests that the full truth comes out.

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re #43 jay:
[ ... Above is from a post by shobia, a pakistani. It is amzing that a pakistani should complain about deaths being not worth a grain of salt. It is pakistan and the muslims who created the jihadists, the fodder whose life is not worth anything, the un-countables of pakistan. Never have I seen a pakistani on chowk to mention the human cost of jihad to pakistan. ...]

And never have I seen an Indian to mention the human cost of oppression at the hand of their armed forces in Kashmir and the human cost of Muslims slaughtered in Gujrat as the police and other authorities stood at the side lines. The only reason US is quiet in such cases is because of its huge economic interest in India. One can argue that US and India have every right to look after their national interests first. And, I am okay with this line of reasoning, but don`t give me your moral superiority bullshit and lose that holier than thou attitude of yours. Finally, some lawmakers in the US are beginning to call a spade a spade. Read on:

=====================================
US lawmakers flay Indian atrocities

NEW YORK, March 3: A six-member US legislators group from New Hampshire charged the Indian government with committing atrocities in occupied Kashmir and called it a ``genocide and nothing less than holocaust.``

Speaking at a press conference here on Sunday after its return from a fact-finding tour of Kashmir, Representative Robert J. Giuda, who is the Deputy Majority Leader of the New Hampshire assembly, said: ``I would very much like Prime Minister Vajpayee and the Indian government to proof me wrong by letting us visit held Kashmir.``

Mr Giuda complained about the silence from Embassy of India and said: ``I have personally written two letters to the ambassador of India in Washington to grant my delegation visas so that we can visit the Indian side of Kashmir but unfortunately I have received no letter.``

He asked the Indian government to let the UN inspectors, human rights activist, and journalists visit the occupied territory.

New Hampshire Senator Frank V. Sapareto talking about his visit said: ``It is a pure genocide, nothing less then a holocaust - unfortunately by the second largest democracy in the world.``

Mr Sapereto further said: ``Children are being killed by Indian army, this has to stop.``

Rep. Henry W. McElroy Jr. agreeing with the conclusions of his colleagues, said that he had no questions or doubt that the planned and structured genocide was being carried out by the Indian government.

He said: ``We have taken pictures and we will provide this along with our fact-finding sheet to the businesses that deal with Indian companies and ask them to stop doing business with India.

``There is no doubt that there is a systematic rape of women in the valley and systematic killing of children by the Indian government,`` McElroy said.

Rep. Michael Albert said that he would write to the US president and the congress to press India to open talks with Pakistan over the Kashmir dispute.

The delegation comprised representatives Robert J. Guide, Saghir A. Tahir, Michael Albert, Henry McElroy, Kimberley Dionne and Senator Frank V. Sapareto.

Urstruly Sahib (Re #32)

You are talking from both sides of your mouth.

In the past you have supported declaration of Ahmadis as non-Muslims as ways for society to maintain order … while partly blaming Ahmadis for violence against them. You have ignored the role of you mullah in anti-Ahmadi violence … who have held hostage the limited legal resources of Pakistan … while Ahmadi mosques, businesses, and houses are attacked and destroyed. The simple point is that … it is your mullahs who are also the instigators of violence and oppression.

The blasphemy law article you wrote … was squarely aimed at justifying blasphemy laws. While attempting to argue on basis of “Islam” and “civility”, you clearly sided with oppression and fanaticism on this issue.

You have also argued … that Islam demands jihad against polytheists … for merely preaching polytheism! Absurdity of such a position should require no explanation.

It is foolish to practice hatred and oppression … and expect the outcome to be based on justice and civility. Your failure to accept this shows that … you Sahib, are the problem.

//Skip this board if Pearl`s death means nothing to you. But dont try to provide explanations on why his death should not be mourned. //

I won`t skip this board because I have as much a right to express my point of view here as you do. If you don`t agree with it, kindly express your opinion and get on with it. Besides, I don`t need to score points with anyone, least of all our neighbors who just kicked our asses in the cricket ground! :-)

//The truth is that many of us are too small minded to be able to relate to people outside our own community and to see others as human beings like us.//

Nice to hear you say these things and then go ahead and call Indians ``low lives``. Hahaha...at least I`m not a hypocrite. I guess people can`t have a civil conversation on Chowk anymore without lambasting others and calling them names. I was better off when I just used to listen and not write back. Take care.

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Sobia #35 You write ``But it’s not about NOT mourning him (Pearl)…it’s about mourning JUST him and ignoring the rest of the world’s plight. There’s a difference. ``
What you are saying is that because we cannot mourn every single tragedy that takes place in the world, we should not mourn any tragedy at all. I hope you will realize the absurdity in what you are saying. Again, I repeat Umarmurtaza`s advice earlier on this board: If you cannot speak any good about someone who has died, it is best to remain silent. Skip this board if Pearl`s death means nothing to you. But dont try to provide explanations on why his death should not be mourned.
Also, dont use it to score points about how bad Pakistanis are (as Hxh and that Hindutva Jay and some other lowlife from India have done on this board).
The truth is that many of us are too small minded to be able to relate to people outside our own community and to see others as human beings like us. You (and Jay and Hxh) see Pearl as white and jewish. Most people see Pearl as the father of an unborn child who leaves behind a young widow, and a brave man who was smiling in pictures that came out of his captivity and who was murdered in a particularly cold-blooded and brutal manner.

apologise for this non-commerical interruption....this article in today`s rediff has some bearing on the poem and discussions:

________________________________________________________

The curious case of Khalid Sheikh

March 04, 2003


Khalid Sheikh Mohammad is being projected by US officials and the army of so-called non-governmental counter-terrorism experts, who have sprung up since 9/11, as if he is the Field Marshal Montgomery or General Patton or General Rommel of Al Qaeda, but his case is getting curiouser and curiouser. Just like the earlier case about the kidnapping and murder of US journalist Daniel Pearl.

Remember the Pearl case? Pakistan`s Inter-Services Intelligence claimed to have solved the case without recovering the dead body and prosecuted Sheikh Omar and his accomplices. The court was told they were the only plotters who deserved to be convicted and sentenced to death.

Even as the trial was mid-way, Pakistani security agencies, while investigating another case, fell upon a group of some other terrorists belonging to the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen (International). During the interrogation, they surprised Pakistani and US intelligence agencies by claiming it was they who had killed Pearl. They led the police to a spot on the outskirts of Karachi where Pearl`s remains were found buried. Forensic tests confirmed their finding and the remains were subsequently handed over to his widow.

Under the law, when a confession made by a suspect leads to some material recovery such as a murder weapon or a dead body, there is an automatic presumption that the entire confession is correct. So, if the Pakistani and US agencies had followed the due process of law, they should have withdrawn the case from court, re-investigated it and submitted a fresh charge-sheet.

They did nothing of the sort. Instead, they kept away information about the recovery of Pearl`s remains and the arrests of the new suspects from the court. When the defence counsel for Sheikh Omar asked the court to take cognisance of media reports in this regard and order a re-investigation, the court declined to do so. It sentenced Sheikh Omar to death and the other accused to life imprisonment. Their appeals have not been disposed off because Pakistani officials have not yet sorted out the confusion created by the recovery of Pearl`s remains on information provided by some terrorists who had not been prosecuted in the case.

On March 1, 2003, a joint team of the ISI and US intelligence raided a house in Rawalpindi in an area where many retired officers of the Pakistan army and the ISI live and arrested three people, one of them a Pakistani. One of the arrested men was identified as Khalid Sheikh Mohammad and he was handed over to US intelligence officials, who flew him out to the US naval base on Diego Garcia, where a secret detention centre has been functioning since March 2002, away from the prying eyes of the media and international human rights organisations.

US officials and the Arthur Koestlers of the war on terrorism went to town with fanciful accounts of what a great catch it was, what a spectacular success for the US and Pakistani agencies etc. One ex-CIA official even claimed it was the greatest arrest ever made in the fight against terrorism since the second World War. Mohammad was made into a legend just as they had made Osama bin Laden into one after 9/11. They had earlier projected bin Laden as if he was one of those innumerable gods in Hindu mythology, with 10 heads, 20 arms and 20 legs, present anywhere and everywhere. Another similar god was created in the personage of Mohammad.

Even as this legend was filling up media space, the Pakistani authorities