Forgive me, Danny

A lot of innocent people die in Karachi every day but the only person significant enough to merit the attention of Ms Sarwari was Dan Pearl. In my opinion Pearl did soething foolhardy..and he has my sympathies..but that was his problem..Besides when Jews and Christians persecute and humiliate Muslim Pakistanis in the UK and the US nowadays..they show them even less mercy Omar Sheikh showed Pearl...so what about us Pakistanis who have to lead a life full of lies and persection at the Hands of those who are our Allies in the war against Terror ? Why don`t we Pearl them all?

A lot of innocent people die in Karachi every day but the only person significant enough to merit the attention of Ms Sarwari was Dan Pearl. In my opinion Pearl did soething foolhardy..and he has my sympathies..but that was his problem..Besides when Jews and Christians persecute and humiliate Muslim Pakistanis in the UK and the US nowadays..they show them even less mercy Omar Sheikh showed Pearl...so what about us Pakistanis who have to lead a life full of lies and persection at the Hands of those who are our Allies in the war against Terror ? Why don`t we Pearl them all?

Very powerful Aisha, especially the ending.

There is much truth in your words here.

Have not heard from you on CHOWK much lately.

Life must br busy.


Ras

Now you are wiser

now you are wiser
dear danny up there
you time was up
you had to leave

now you are wiser
you know you were caught
in a storm of
not our own making
the vicious wheels of
injustice grind
and innocents are
as is writ in fate
caught in them again
and again ’n again

now you are wiser
and rid of all pains
but the injustice
and showers of death
come unabated
we wait in silence
sheep in abattoir
our turn will come soon


because we are the
silent, living dead.

well spoken ms.sarwari.....your tribute echoes the sentiments of many educated pakistanis...glad you took the initiative to write!

sarwari: I share your feelings about Pearl`s murder. His pregnant wife also showed true greatness when she was leaving Pakistan after the murder. She had not one word of self-pity (compare that to the routine whining of the likes of mansourhallaj), and had nothing but good words to say about Pakistan, and also mentioned and thanked the individual police officials assigned to keep her informed.

mansourhallaj #2 So, you read the poem and write a post to excuse the cold-blooded murder of Daniel Pearl. Individuals like you are scum, no better than the cowards who killed Pearl.

well written.

his death was an incident that caused much grief to me and my friends.

nobody who loves pakistan or islam could have done such a thing.

can`t believe its already been a year!

Howdy Sarwari,

Good stuff. Good to see you back.

Tahmed, Mansur,

Hmm, I can see where Mansur is coming from (regarding many people dying all the time - that`s all) but I agree with Tauheed that it is rude, wrong, insensitive, and callous (not to mention a bit wonky) to start talking of such things. When one discusses such sensitive topics, one should either keep shut or say good things. That`s the bottom line.

And now, as a British citizen, (member of the NATO) let me apologise wholeheartedly to the children of Southern Iraqis who are getting Fcuked left, right and centre with congenital birth defects due to the depleted Uranium shells we used to blow through their tanks` armour plating during Gulf War (and we say that Saddam is the only person with WOMD).

I apologise with all my heart and know that for now, I cannot do anything. But for now, I`ll say this: You don`t deserve the 300 tonnes of radioactive $hit we threw over your land just so that your tanks could be destroyed a little more easily. You don`t deserve your DNA strings, your most precious possessions, to be pi$$ed upon. You don`t deserve Leukaemia. You don’t deserve eyes on top of your heads or two heads sprouting from between your shoulders. You don’t deserve seven digits, 18 toes and three arms, all extending from the same side of your body. You don`t deserve tumours on your body. You don`t deserve to be expelled from your mothers` wombs whilst still developing. You don’t deserve to be disabled and a burden to your families for the rest of your short, miserable lives.

You don’t deserve the misery.

Alas, you`ll probably grow (if you ever reach growth) and seek death.

But you should have deserved a good life. I`m so sorry.

Umer M.

Taimur,

`can`t believe its already been a year!`

Yeah, a little scary isn`t it? Feels like as if it happeend last week.

Umer M.

Umer...#9
you are right...the Iraqi children do deserve more, as do their mothers, and many many more Iraqis, as well as our own soldiers who`ve been affected by it. And thank you for apologizing, because Bush and Blair won`t.

may Daniel Pearl`s memory be eternal.

--ana

MILLION MAN MARCH IN PAKISTAN - pictures

Those who were saying why there are no protests in Paksitan against colonial agression of United States and West against Iraq should now know. Those who call themselves liberal and enlightened specie must see how are leading this protest and be ashamed of themselves. And check the previous issues of this newspaper as far back as months and see that every day there is a protest. Government of Paksitan in collusion with press is trying to censor and suppress and downplay what the ``silent`` majority has to say. The majority has spoken.

http://akhbar.urdupoint.com/03/03/03/

There are certain things about Daniel Pearl case that stink and they are hard to swallow:

1. Those people who have been following the trial of Omar Sheikh might have noticed that the spokesperson of the investigation agencies used to hold press conferences regularly, during the investigation. He was usually tight lip about the investigation however, he had no problem feeding the media with “statements of accused under investigation”; and those statements were such that would incriminate anyone, be it winni the pooh.

Conclusion: GOP was conducting a media trial of the accused.

2. Nowhere in the world an accused is handed down a death penalty, even if he confesses of committing murder, unless the body of the murdered is found. In this case Omar Shiekh was handed a death sentence and the body of DP was found well over a month later.

3. Why hasn’t Omar Shiekh been handed over to FBI? Why he is not in Gitmo along with other alleged Al-Qaida operatives? Whereas, Pak police along with FBI along has kidnapped its own citizens by dragging them from their bedrooms and sent to undisclosed locations, tortured, investigated illegally. This is not only illegal but also unconstitutional (or whatever is left of constitution).

4. The verdict of Omar Shiekh was handed down in a closed court. Why, right after the verdict, the lawyer representing OS reads down a statement to the press, allegedly by his client, that would definitely incriminate him and compromise justice during the appellate process?

5. Why before the arrest of OS, his sisters, mother, and other members of family were picked up by police and held under police custody for several days. Under which law police or GOP can do that? It is strict violation of Pakistan Penal Code 220 to confine the relative of an accused and police officer committing such offence is liable to 7 years in prison.

I am not buying this shit unless government of Pakistan, and Courts in Pakistan tell people of Pakistan what the hell is going on. I demand to know when this b/c government of ours is gonna stop kidnapping its own citizens. The murder of DP is a heinous crime and as human beings we should feel sorrow and grief for his demise but as Pakistanis I refuse to accept the guilt trip that poetess is trying to lay on us. This fish stinks.

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UmerMurtaza

I hope some Iraqi will apologize to the Kurds against whom Iraqis used biological weapons.

Re Umer:
I am not buying this shit unless government of Pakistan, and Courts in Pakistan tell people of Pakistan what the hell is going on. I demand to know when this b/c government of ours is gonna stop kidnapping its own citizens

You expect this from a military dictator who bulldozed a democratically elected government and booted the PM out illegally? As it is Mushy darling is only doing what he`s getting paid for: he`s carying out the orders of Big Daddy and he ain`t stopping any time soon, no matter how hard and long you and I shout.

Urstrly wrote:
``5. Why before the arrest of OS, his sisters, mother, and other members of family were picked up by police and held under police custody for several days. Under which law police or GOP can do that? It is strict violation of Pakistan Penal Code 220 to confine the relative of an accused and police officer committing such offence is liable to 7 years in prison. ``

This is common practice in Pakistan. The police play with the `honor` aspect as even a criminal (or supposed criminal) has honor. Often, the sisters, mother and other females of the family of a criminal go into hiding as otherwise the police will put them behind bars forcing the criminal to turn himself in and save his family from humiliation.

the judicial system will always remain weak as long as there is interference in it and in the police set up. and when you have a criminal who was once a stooge of the gvt. that`s bound to answer more of your questions.

UNCONTABLES,

This poem is the sad reality of pakistan, only the colour of the skin counts, it has to be fair, white as the white man is supreme, very true for a pakistani female like sarwari.

The uncountables who were simply in a place of worship, shot by the jihadists does not count, they are the uncountables. The lone white man, deserves a poem. This peom sybolises the hopelessness of pakistan, an inability to think for themselves, to have an identity of their own. It is all for money, the values are for sale, hope this sarwaris ppoems finds it way to an american mag and some few dollars. Pathetic.

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In response to Urstruly at # 13 and Sobia at # 17:

It is the US Troika which is deciding the fate of the world at large. No matter where the so called Al Qaeda Terrorists are being caught, its FBI right behind the local police - Germany, UK, Yemen, you name it. But those countries are not making any noise. Why? Because they know their limitations. They know who has the power.

My sincere advice to people of Pakistani origin is to stop being emotional and do an analysis of the situation on the basis of reasoning and logic.

Is it better to keep harboring some idiots whose actions are only benefitting our enemies?

Is it reasonable to unnecessarily challenge the only super power to get destroyed within a week time?

Is it a moral thing to burn the flags of other countries?

Or do we really care for Pakistan and want to make it a role model on the basis of our economic and military strength. If yes, then we will have to bare the current wave of `injustice` with a little patience.

While Daniel Pearl`s gruesome murder is an unforgivable act of crime, the average number of Pakistanis killed in Karachi city alone is 700 a year. Does anyone care two hoots for them? This poem exemplifies the Pakistani fascination for anyone with a fair skin.

Soppy stuff...seems like the author`s trying too hard...

Daniel Pearl`s murder got worldwide coverage because the bad bad Muslims killed him.. and because he was white and Jewish...

I`m not saying what happened to Pearl is acceptable or should be condoned, but what is happening to the citizens of Pakistan when they are accosted every day by the FBI and the local polica gundas in the name of the War Against Terrorism is something we should be more concerned about.

...very poignant, aisha...may he r.i.p....

Sobia at # 22:

Please read my post at # 20.

FBI is accompanying local police all over the world, including all the Muslim countries. No body is making noise, because they know who they are pitted against. We are being unnecessarily emotional. If the Pakistanis being caught are innocent, the injustice will lose. Justice will win. Eventually, all of them will be free. Let us just swallow our pain for a while and prepare ourselves for the future.

If those caught are guilty, then we really don`t need to sympathise with them since their actions are not helping Pakistanis or the Muslims a bit.

Note that these troubling times will pass for the betterment.

Sarwari: Nice poem. Don`t worry about the saffron brigade trying to find faults in a sincere apology. These are the same people who accuse moderate Muslims of not speaking out against terrorism or the attrocities committed in the name of our religion. But, when someone does, its readily interpreted as appeasement. Damned if we do, damned if we don`t! Clearly, there is a much more deep-rooted insecurity and complex at work here which does not let our neighbors enjoy their recent success. Tsk, tsk, tsk...

As for the mullah brigade, how does mourning Pearl`s death suggest that the poet is disregarding the deaths of her fellow countrymen? Those who think that the poem was written because the victim was white are practicing racism themselves. Daniel Pearl was a human being and the horrendous circumstances surrounding his death should sadden anyone regardless of race, religion or nationality.

ahamadzai & sobia

Our country is in deep shit because we have been told since the day one, to shut up and bear the ``injustice`` for the good times that never comes. We lost half of the country because we were made to shut up at the injustices of haramzadas who rule us. The history of 1971, repeated itself and a 16 year long civil war is being fought in Karachi where people had to go through the worst ethnic cleansing and genocide (of Mohajirs) by the state, and we were told to shut up. How the hell is this country going to be better off, when we have turned it into Pinochet`s Chile where kidnapping and murder by state is business as usual. How the hell is our country better off, when it has no constitution and there hasn`t been any legislation for the past 4 years. Beats me. The only people who are better off are the military who are richer, have more land, and are more powerful then ever before. What about Paksitanis- yes they are better off committing suicides.

The people of US might be safe in their country with anti-Muslim discriminatory laws and turning their country into police state under department of homeland security, but what about us. They are fighting their wars in our countries. where is our homeland security? we don`t have resources to save us from our own government, Americans and the people who are fighting Americans- who the hell is going to save us? where do we turn to?

Human beings have rights, period. There is no compromise on that. ``Some idiots`` have rights too. Jeffery Dhamers, Milosovics, Modis, Vajpayees, advanis and Javed Iqbals have rights too. It is a right of fair trial in an open court of justice. That is what makes us civilized and them the terrorists - being civilized comes at a price; if we can`t pay the price we have no right to call ourselves civilized. People of Paksitan have rights too - to live like human beings and not like cattle, under constitution, which military has always used as a toilet paper; and which they swore that they would protect with their lives. There is no compromise on constitutional rights - what it means is that the haramzadas who are running our country have to work harder - instead of chewing on our juglars they should stand up for us (and not for US). That is what they swore that they would do. isn`t it?

It looks like the killing of Daniel Paarl was the biggest tragedy, poems are being written and numerous articles appearing in various vernaculars all over the world. Not surprising, there is a picture of Daniels Pearl’s wife holding a baby in the Time Special issue. Why is so much importance given to the death one human, whereas thousands of deaths, those who died under the carpet of US bombs in Afghanistan or Iraq or some other part of the world go unnoticed. Forgive me all those people who were killed by the US bombs, there is no poem written for you…

Urstruly:

Honestly speaking, the points you have raised have remarkable similarities with Indians` position on the interactive boards of this site when they are thrashing Pakistan. But no hard feelings, please.

Kindly note that:

1. Mohajirs never went through any genocide. Their two factions have killed more of the Mohajirs between them than all of them killed by any other party, including Hindus and Sikhs at the time of partition. Mohajirs were the most educated people and that was their competitive edge. Mr. Altaf Hussain thought to answer Jaheliet of arms toting groups with Jahiliet of his own, letting all Mohajir youngsters to take arms too. Having shunned their competitive edge, Mohajirs are the real loosers under the leadership of Mr. Altaf Hussain.

2. I see a good future of Mohajirs, because Mr. Hussain now has competition from MMA. Both parties have to deliver. And deliver they will. Competition for economic betterment is the name of the game.

3. Do you have real figures about suicides per capita for various countries of the region? Please tell me how many suicides took place in the entire of Pakistan in the year 2002 (or 2001 for that matter)? How many people do you know, who know some one, who know some one .... who has committed suicide ( I am referring to 6 degrees of separation).

4. If Americans are fighting their war on Pakistani soil, they are also fighting their war on many other countries` soils too. Are those countries making any noise? they have dictatorships. Amongst Muslim countries, only Malaysia and Pakistan are making enough noise.

5. The current PML Q Government has adequately stood up for Pakistanis` cause. Not a single other Muslim country worked so hard on INS registration law as did our leadership. This has been acknowledged by American newspapers too. Our leadership is also appropriately resisting American arm twisting on Iraq war. It has raised the issue of Kashmir at each and every forum of the world, has raised the issue of injustice to Pushtoons of Afghanistan, has clearly denied American military`s pursuance of terrorists into Pakistan, etc.

I hope you understand. Please acknowledge good deeds vis-a-vis other comparable Governments.

Again, no hard feelings, please:)

adnan_rafiq #24 you write ``Those who think that the poem was written because the victim was white are practicing racism themselves. Daniel Pearl was a human being and the horrendous circumstances surrounding his death should sadden anyone regardless of race, religion or nationality. ``
Your post provides a befitting response to posters who think that because Danny Pearl was white or jewish his death should not be mourned. To say that hundreds are killed every day and so one death should not be mourned, which is essentially what these people are saying, is the worst possible reasoning I can think of. As Umarmurtaza wrote earlier, if you cant say express sorrow at anyone`s death, then you should keep silent.

ahmadzai: I agree with your assessments regarding MQM and PML-Q`s efforts vis-a-vis the INS registration. Altaf Hussein has destroyed an entire generation while sitting pretty in London. His campaign was a perfect example of the saying that `violence only breeds violence.` However, one must not be too quick to put the blame entirely on the shoulders of MQM and Mohajirs. Many of their grievances were real, but instead of painting the fight as a fight against the establishment, Altaf pitted the Mohajirs against their fellow Pakistani brothers, especially the Punjabis. This is where the whole equation got corrupted IMO. But, the attrocities committed by Benazir and Naseer-ullah Babar during the early nineties come very close to the definition of genocide. Extra-judicial killings, false arrests, harassement of family members, intimidation of local newspapers, etc. were the order of the day during their time. Perhaps, a more balanced approach would divide the blame equally between MQM and the establishment.

The other thing that I do not agree with is your proclaimation that since Mohajirs were the most educated they had a competitive edge which they lost due to their leadership`s incompetence. This is akin to saying that a bullfighter has an edge in the arena because he plays excellent chess. Anyone who has been following our society and economy can testify that education is the last thing that provides any sort of edge in a society ruled by military, feudals and mullahs. In fact, education is an anathema to the survival of our privileged classes. No sir, in Pakistan, being educated is not an asset but a liability. That`s why the educated class always has been and will be persecuted. Altaf Hussein did not have the vision to see it as a war against the triumvirate of fedual, general and mullah. Instead, he filled his coffers by turning Mohajirs against Sindhis, Punjabis and Pathans and vice versa. Hopefully, the young generation of Karachi will realize the blunders made by their elders and work toward a common goal of harmony with other ethnicities instead of staying locked in a fruitless confrontation and an endless circle of violence.

On a side note: Although, not a Bihari myself, I am well aware of the plight of Biharis stranded in Bangladesh. These people, who still call themselves Pakistanis, have been in limbo for decades now. While our government spends millions of dollars in the name of Kashmir, none of us can find even a shred of sympathy for our unfortunate brothers rotting in Bangladeshi camps.

Urstruly Sahib (Re #26):

The expletives you used for the military dictatorship … also aptly describe the nature of your mullah. Let’s not forget the role of religious fanaticism in the current mess across the globe.

You plead your case on basis of human rights and civility … while you continue to support oppression and injustice … of course, in the name of Islam. This includes your support for anti-Ahmadi legislation, support for killings on grounds of apostasy and blasphemy, calls for jihad against polytheists, and much more.

It is foolish for one to practice hatred and oppression … and expect the outcome to be based on justice and civility. If you fail to appreciate this basic point … you’ll continue to degenerate intellectually, morally, and emotionally.

sobia #22

you just don`t get it, do you?...

pearl`s murder got worldwide coverage not b/c he`s white or jewish but b/c his slaying is emblematic of the hatred that is pakistan and, i`m sorry to say, 21st century islam. you guys hate everyone - the west, americans, indians, the jews, yourselves - you name it - and the problems of the muslims and pakistanis are everyone else`s fault but yours, right?

no atrocity is too horrific for you to minimize, right sobia? not 9/11, not pearl. all you have to say is ``palestine`` or ``everyone hates muslims.``

i don`t hate muslims...but people who can minimize pearl`s brutal slaughter? there`s something seriously wrong with their wiring...although when i think about the state pakistan is in, it explains a lot...

you see, pakistan is in the shape its in not b/c of corrupt politicians or military dictators or even muslim terrorists - it is the embodiment of human misery and failure precisely b/c of people like you

...who tolerate and embrace this hatred

...and who just don`t get it.

Sattar

You are a liar and a slanderer. You lie knowingly and therefore, lose respect with people. I oppose anti-ahmadi legislation and called it anti-Islamic and anti-constitutional and you know it. I do not support killing or death penalty for blasphemy as you must have read in my artcle on blasphemy law. As a matter of fact I oppose death penalty for any crime including that for a rapist and murderer of a 7 year old; and I have argued that in the article and in the debate that followed. I think one who lies is the one who practices hatred. May Lord cleanse your heart of this hatred for the people who do not share your belief and show you the light.



http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001344&channel=university%20ave&start=620&end=629&page=63&chapter=7#33

sattar2: Please excuse this interruption to the scholarly debate between you and urstruly. I happened to come across this post from our old (but young) friend anNy that was addressed to you on another board:

#113 by anNy on March 3, 2003 9:07am PT
excuse digression please
------
sattar2
can u please email me at annythedud@yahoo.com ASAP.
Thanks

Adnan Rafiq at # 30:

Your analysis is good since it departs from the blame game.

Just fyi, when I was referring to education as a competitive edge for Mohajirs, I had Sindh`s urban areas in my mind. There is no denying the fact that it was educated `Mohajirs` who were driving the economic prosperity of these areas and of Pakistan in general through their mid and senior management skills.

About Beharis, they settled in East Pakistan and should have become its citizens. Its like expecting Afghan Mohajirs settled in Pakistan to extend them our citizenship too. As it is, none of them wants to return. Hence, the incentivization by UN to send them back.

But I agree with you that a solution should have been found for their absorption by Pakistan-BD joint efforts.

UNDP and honour killings



The undersigned organizations are deeply disappointed by the response given by the UNDP representative to the open letter by Ms Faryal Gauhar. Several rights organizations have already registered their concern with the UNDP and the Planning Commission, Government of Pakistan, over the inclusion of Sarwar Khan Mohmand in the meeting organized by both these agencies in Islamabad on Feb 6.

Samia Sarwar`s murder put the spotlight on the practice of honour killing in Pakistan. International and national human rights forums, including human rights mechanisms of the United Nations, have voiced their condemnation and concern over this practice.

///The day that aisha dedicated this poem to the dead daniel pearl, in pakistan pak govt has appointed a person implicated in the killing of samia sarwar to a senior position in a fitting tribute to honour killing in pakistan. Aisha, you have the pulse of the pak people.

FORGIVE ME SAIMA,

i KNEW THAT you AN EDUCATED WOMAN sAIMA

was killed in the office of our

great human rights activist asma jahangir,

I know saima that our

elected reps refused to condemn the killings,
I know saima that you died in vain,

I know saima that the it is legal to kill women,

I know saima that all that you wanted aws
to get away from your lecherous husband,

I know saima that you died for something so simple,

But saima, I am an educated pakistani
education can make no change to the social values imbibbed through my mothers milk,

I am a proud pakistani and I cannot go against the book,
and I know that ny country is an islamic one,
please understand that I am a proud pakistani,
pl know that I respect the laws of pakistan
and no one was arrested for your killing and I feel no sorrow for you,
because that is the law and that is pakistan.

re: hxn

you guys hate everyone - the west, americans, indians, the jews, yourselves - you name it - and the problems of the muslims and pakistanis are everyone else`s fault but yours, right?//

Nope, don`t hate anyone...not the Americans, not the Jews and no, not even the Indians, though you`re very surprised to hear that, aren`t you? Because since I`m Pakistani and Muslim, YOU assume I hate everyone because that`s what you`re fed through your media and politicians. I think what`s happening to the Muslims all over the world is as much their fault as anyone`s. In fact, we’re more to blame and the sad reality is, we’re not doing anything about it. I also believe what`s happening to Pakistanis is also to a large part our own fault. But that`s not the point. The point is that there`s a proverb in Urdu: Jis ki laathi, uss ki bhains - the person who has the power rules the world. I`m not resenting anyone their power, but I don`t believe in justifying the ABUSE of power, as is seen time and again all over the world. And power IS abused when people die in other parts of the world and their deaths are not even worth a grain of salt, as compared to what happens to someone who happens to belong to the most powerful country in the world. The truth is that Danny Pearl got the coverage BECAUSE he was who he was. Any other person who had been killed this way would NOT have been given this much importance – again, power play. Who is downplaying Pearl’s murder? Not me. I don’t say he should’ve been killed, I don’t say his murder is justified. All I’m saying is there is NO justification for ANYONE’s killing, be it Pearl’s or someone in the Gaza strip. Now whether you understand what I’m trying to say or you keep on lambasting me is your prerogative.

Re: ahmedzai

If the Pakistanis being caught are innocent, the injustice will lose. Justice will win. Eventually, all of them will be free. Let us just swallow our pain for a while and prepare ourselves for the future.

Sorry for being cynical, but I don’t think justice wins all the time. In fact, more often than not, it doesn’t, especially when those in power don’t know the meaning of the word, and don’t care to find out – unfortunately!

Tahmed32:

because Danny Pearl was white or Jewish his death should not be mourned. To say that hundreds are killed every day and so one death should not be mourned, which is essentially what these people are saying, is the worst possible reasoning I can think of//

Because Pearl was white and Jewish is because his death got the coverage it did, which is lucky for him. If he had been a coal black African, it wouldn’t have made it to the back pages of the Daily Hicksville Times, Michigan. But it’s not about NOT mourning him…it’s about mourning JUST him and ignoring the rest of the world’s plight. There’s a difference.

#24 by adnan_rafiq on March 3, 2003 10:59am PT

[Don`t worry about the saffron brigade trying to find faults in a sincere apology. These are the same people who accuse moderate Muslims of not speaking out against terrorism or the attrocities committed in the name of our religion. But, when someone does, its readily interpreted as appeasement. Damned if we do, damned if we don`t! Clearly, there is a much more deep-rooted insecurity and complex at work here which does not let our neighbors enjoy their recent success]

My dear Adnan, what about your own countrymen who have expressed their disagreement over this ode to Daniel Pearl? Will you accuse them of being RAW agents?

Your own low self-esteem is exposed when you define terrorism committed in the name of religion as condemnable only when the victims are the goras, not the countless ordinary victims of terrorism that are commonplace in Pakistan.

re ahmedzai #38
[ ... About Beharis, they settled in East Pakistan and should have become its citizens. Its like expecting Afghan Mohajirs settled in Pakistan to extend them our citizenship too. As it is, none of them wants to return. Hence, the incentivization by UN to send them back. ...]

Hunh? I`m sorry but your argument makes no sense. Those Biharis were `Pakistani` citizens living in East Pakistan. Its not a question of whether we should extend them our citizenship or not - they already ARE citizens. On the other hand, Afghan Mohajirs were never Pakistani to being with, so you are really comparing apples to oranges here. And, they ALL want to return, thats why they are living in refugee camps in Bangladesh and not in Dhaka or Chittagong.

P.S. On a personal note, however, I am in favor of extending our citizenship to those Afghanis who have lived in Pakistan for more than ten years. Their children and families are well grounded in Pakistani cities and it would be cruel to send them back to a place where they have (at least for now) no future.

``And power IS abused when people die in other parts of the world and their deaths are not even worth a grain of salt, as compared to what happens to someone who happens to belong to the most powerful country in the world. The truth is that Danny Pearl got the coverage BECAUSE he was who he was.``

///Above is from a post by shobia, a pakistani. It is amzing that a pakistani should complain about deaths being not worth a grain of salt. It is pakistan and the muslims who created the jihadists, the fodder whose life is not worth anything, the un-countables of pakistan. Never have I seen a pakistani on chowk to mention the human cost of jihad to pakistan.

The hall mark of the jihadic attack is worthless ness of human life and rest of the world are apalled by it. It is this blinkered vsion, high lighted in the above post that is the bane of islam. A pakistani complaining about the worthlessness of human life, after several thousand ``martyred`` in afghanista, kashmir, chechniya, kenya.... It is the great poet, aisha who values the life of pearl and condemns the life of samia sarwar simply because in pakistan under the jihadic protocol pak life is not worth anything. Sobia..please have mercy on us.

apologise for this non-commerical interruption....this article in today`s rediff has some bearing on the poem and discussions:

________________________________________________________

The curious case of Khalid Sheikh

March 04, 2003


Khalid Sheikh Mohammad is being projected by US officials and the army of so-called non-governmental counter-terrorism experts, who have sprung up since 9/11, as if he is the Field Marshal Montgomery or General Patton or General Rommel of Al Qaeda, but his case is getting curiouser and curiouser. Just like the earlier case about the kidnapping and murder of US journalist Daniel Pearl.

Remember the Pearl case? Pakistan`s Inter-Services Intelligence claimed to have solved the case without recovering the dead body and prosecuted Sheikh Omar and his accomplices. The court was told they were the only plotters who deserved to be convicted and sentenced to death.

Even as the trial was mid-way, Pakistani security agencies, while investigating another case, fell upon a group of some other terrorists belonging to the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen (International). During the interrogation, they surprised Pakistani and US intelligence agencies by claiming it was they who had killed Pearl. They led the police to a spot on the outskirts of Karachi where Pearl`s remains were found buried. Forensic tests confirmed their finding and the remains were subsequently handed over to his widow.

Under the law, when a confession made by a suspect leads to some material recovery such as a murder weapon or a dead body, there is an automatic presumption that the entire confession is correct. So, if the Pakistani and US agencies had followed the due process of law, they should have withdrawn the case from court, re-investigated it and submitted a fresh charge-sheet.

They did nothing of the sort. Instead, they kept away information about the recovery of Pearl`s remains and the arrests of the new suspects from the court. When the defence counsel for Sheikh Omar asked the court to take cognisance of media reports in this regard and order a re-investigation, the court declined to do so. It sentenced Sheikh Omar to death and the other accused to life imprisonment. Their appeals have not been disposed off because Pakistani officials have not yet sorted out the confusion created by the recovery of Pearl`s remains on information provided by some terrorists who had not been prosecuted in the case.

On March 1, 2003, a joint team of the ISI and US intelligence raided a house in Rawalpindi in an area where many retired officers of the Pakistan army and the ISI live and arrested three people, one of them a Pakistani. One of the arrested men was identified as Khalid Sheikh Mohammad and he was handed over to US intelligence officials, who flew him out to the US naval base on Diego Garcia, where a secret detention centre has been functioning since March 2002, away from the prying eyes of the media and international human rights organisations.

US officials and the Arthur Koestlers of the war on terrorism went to town with fanciful accounts of what a great catch it was, what a spectacular success for the US and Pakistani agencies etc. One ex-CIA official even claimed it was the greatest arrest ever made in the fight against terrorism since the second World War. Mohammad was made into a legend just as they had made Osama bin Laden into one after 9/11. They had earlier projected bin Laden as if he was one of those innumerable gods in Hindu mythology, with 10 heads, 20 arms and 20 legs, present anywhere and everywhere. Another similar god was created in the personage of Mohammad.

Even as this legend was filling up media space, the Pakistani authorities did a volte face within 24 hours and denied that Mohammad had been taken out of Pakistan. He was being interrogated in Pakistani territory by Pakistani officials, they maintained. Faisal Saleh Hayat, Pakistan`s interior minister, even denied that the US had requested his extradition. He added that Mohammad would first be tried in Pakistan for offences before considering his extradition. Hayat confounded the confusion by saying since Mohammad is a Kuwaiti national, if at all he is extradited, he would be sent to Kuwait and not to the US.

Why this confusion? No credible answer is available. There is speculation galore in Pakistan, uncorroborated by evidence. Amongst the speculation are:


When the Americans took Mohammad to Diego Garcia, they realised they had identified him incorrectly. They handed him back to the ISI and asked it to handle the mess as best as it can.
An ISI official brought to the notice of his seniors that after the encounter in Karachi on September 11, 2002, in which Ramzi Binalshibh was captured, the officer in charge of the raid had submitted a report to the headquarters claiming to have killed Mohammad and buried his body without informing the Americans about it.

Sheikh Omar`s defence counsel has drawn the attention of the appeals court to reports in the foreign media that it was Mohammad who masterminded Pearl`s kidnapping and murder and pointed out that handing him over to the US without trying him in Pakistan vitiated the case against his client.

Pakistani officials have further tied themselves into knots by stating that Mohammad is in their custody. If so, his friends and relatives are entitled to move a writ of habeas corpus to produce him before a court. Officials of the Jamaat-e-Islami have already announced their intention to do so and the ISI has been trying frantically to pressurise them not to do so.

The Pakistani supreme court, while pronouncing judgment in a different case on March 3, 2003, has added to the confusion by ruling that Al Qaeda is not a terrorist organisation under Pakistani laws since the Musharraf government has not so far declared it to be so.

On August 14, 2001, Musharraf declared the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and the Shia extremist Sipah Mohammad as terrorist organisations. On January 15, 2002, he added the Lashkar-e-Tayiba, the Jaish-e-Mohammad, the Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan, the Tehrik Jaffria Pakistan and an organisation active in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas to this list. But, till today, he has not declared Al Qaeda, the Taliban, the HUM and the Harkat-ul-Jihad-al-Islami as terrorist organisations. The supreme court has ruled that Al Qaeda could not be called a terrorist organisation in Pakistan till the government issued a notification under the Anti Terrorist Act of 1997 to declare it to be so.

What is happening in Pakistan would make a good case study of how not to wage a war on terrorism.

Sobia #35 You write ``But it’s not about NOT mourning him (Pearl)…it’s about mourning JUST him and ignoring the rest of the world’s plight. There’s a difference. ``
What you are saying is that because we cannot mourn every single tragedy that takes place in the world, we should not mourn any tragedy at all. I hope you will realize the absurdity in what you are saying. Again, I repeat Umarmurtaza`s advice earlier on this board: If you cannot speak any good about someone who has died, it is best to remain silent. Skip this board if Pearl`s death means nothing to you. But dont try to provide explanations on why his death should not be mourned.
Also, dont use it to score points about how bad Pakistanis are (as Hxh and that Hindutva Jay and some other lowlife from India have done on this board).
The truth is that many of us are too small minded to be able to relate to people outside our own community and to see others as human beings like us. You (and Jay and Hxh) see Pearl as white and jewish. Most people see Pearl as the father of an unborn child who leaves behind a young widow, and a brave man who was smiling in pictures that came out of his captivity and who was murdered in a particularly cold-blooded and brutal manner.

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//Skip this board if Pearl`s death means nothing to you. But dont try to provide explanations on why his death should not be mourned. //

I won`t skip this board because I have as much a right to express my point of view here as you do. If you don`t agree with it, kindly express your opinion and get on with it. Besides, I don`t need to score points with anyone, least of all our neighbors who just kicked our asses in the cricket ground! :-)

//The truth is that many of us are too small minded to be able to relate to people outside our own community and to see others as human beings like us.//

Nice to hear you say these things and then go ahead and call Indians ``low lives``. Hahaha...at least I`m not a hypocrite. I guess people can`t have a civil conversation on Chowk anymore without lambasting others and calling them names. I was better off when I just used to listen and not write back. Take care.

Urstruly Sahib (Re #32)

You are talking from both sides of your mouth.

In the past you have supported declaration of Ahmadis as non-Muslims as ways for society to maintain order … while partly blaming Ahmadis for violence against them. You have ignored the role of you mullah in anti-Ahmadi violence … who have held hostage the limited legal resources of Pakistan … while Ahmadi mosques, businesses, and houses are attacked and destroyed. The simple point is that … it is your mullahs who are also the instigators of violence and oppression.

The blasphemy law article you wrote … was squarely aimed at justifying blasphemy laws. While attempting to argue on basis of “Islam” and “civility”, you clearly sided with oppression and fanaticism on this issue.

You have also argued … that Islam demands jihad against polytheists … for merely preaching polytheism! Absurdity of such a position should require no explanation.

It is foolish to practice hatred and oppression … and expect the outcome to be based on justice and civility. Your failure to accept this shows that … you Sahib, are the problem.

re #43 jay:
[ ... Above is from a post by shobia, a pakistani. It is amzing that a pakistani should complain about deaths being not worth a grain of salt. It is pakistan and the muslims who created the jihadists, the fodder whose life is not worth anything, the un-countables of pakistan. Never have I seen a pakistani on chowk to mention the human cost of jihad to pakistan. ...]

And never have I seen an Indian to mention the human cost of oppression at the hand of their armed forces in Kashmir and the human cost of Muslims slaughtered in Gujrat as the police and other authorities stood at the side lines. The only reason US is quiet in such cases is because of its huge economic interest in India. One can argue that US and India have every right to look after their national interests first. And, I am okay with this line of reasoning, but don`t give me your moral superiority bullshit and lose that holier than thou attitude of yours. Finally, some lawmakers in the US are beginning to call a spade a spade. Read on:

=====================================
US lawmakers flay Indian atrocities

NEW YORK, March 3: A six-member US legislators group from New Hampshire charged the Indian government with committing atrocities in occupied Kashmir and called it a ``genocide and nothing less than holocaust.``

Speaking at a press conference here on Sunday after its return from a fact-finding tour of Kashmir, Representative Robert J. Giuda, who is the Deputy Majority Leader of the New Hampshire assembly, said: ``I would very much like Prime Minister Vajpayee and the Indian government to proof me wrong by letting us visit held Kashmir.``

Mr Giuda complained about the silence from Embassy of India and said: ``I have personally written two letters to the ambassador of India in Washington to grant my delegation visas so that we can visit the Indian side of Kashmir but unfortunately I have received no letter.``

He asked the Indian government to let the UN inspectors, human rights activist, and journalists visit the occupied territory.

New Hampshire Senator Frank V. Sapareto talking about his visit said: ``It is a pure genocide, nothing less then a holocaust - unfortunately by the second largest democracy in the world.``

Mr Sapereto further said: ``Children are being killed by Indian army, this has to stop.``

Rep. Henry W. McElroy Jr. agreeing with the conclusions of his colleagues, said that he had no questions or doubt that the planned and structured genocide was being carried out by the Indian government.

He said: ``We have taken pictures and we will provide this along with our fact-finding sheet to the businesses that deal with Indian companies and ask them to stop doing business with India.

``There is no doubt that there is a systematic rape of women in the valley and systematic killing of children by the Indian government,`` McElroy said.

Rep. Michael Albert said that he would write to the US president and the congress to press India to open talks with Pakistan over the Kashmir dispute.

The delegation comprised representatives Robert J. Guide, Saghir A. Tahir, Michael Albert, Henry McElroy, Kimberley Dionne and Senator Frank V. Sapareto.

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Sobia
The reason why Pearl`s death was a significant event for some Indians was that Omar Shiekh, one of the conspirators in Pearl`s kidnapping had kidnapped foreigners in India before and had been arrested when those kidnapped were freed(one Indian police officer was killed during the rescue).

The group Harkat Mujahiddeen which hijacked an Indian Airline to get Omar Shiekh freed from Indian jail a few years later had also kidnapped other foreigners in J&K in early 90s and even beheaded one of them. One of the rest escaped, the others are still missing and their wives used to make yearly visits to India to appeal to militant groups(they even met Omar Shiekh in jail) to give any news of their husbands. So what Ms Daniel Pearl wnet through, other women had already been put through by this same group.

And all this was known to the Pakistani govt. all along, but they not only refused to extradite to India Omar Shiekh and his group, guilty of kidnappings, multiple murders, hijacking of an airline(and killing a newly married Indian passenger during the hijack), but also allowed them to walk free and operate freely in Pakistan and as consequence they could do what they pleased with Daniel Pearl. Even when Omar Shiekh was arrested by Pakistani police, it was only after he had spent a week with the Pakistani intelligence agencies after surrendering to them.

At the time of his death, Daniel Pearl was on the trail of jihadi groups and had just written an article from Bahawalpur about how the Pakistani govt. had done nothing about the increasing jihadi activities of Jaish-e-Mohammad, a group started by another guy, former HuM, also released in the Indian Airlines hijack.

The Daniel Pearl murder was certainly not just any random murder. Its in Pakistanis own interests that the full truth comes out.

adnan_rafiq #45

This hilarious news item has gotten quite a lot of play in the paki press.

Do you even have any idea what the New Hampshire Legislator`s actual job function is? It is local issues like hunting and education in the state of New Hampshire. They have not the slightest relationship to any foreign policy issue. Besides, after this the local indians will be all over them like flies over honey. So it may be the least you hear from them on this issue.

I think you should get in contact with some other groups as well. They would all be happy to have a junket out to Pakistan or elsewhere. Here are some others:

Traffic Police in Toledo, OH
Mayor of SomeZeroTown, CA
Sanitation Workers Union of NY

Please have them issue statements about US foreign policy and even take them to Pakistan (oops, some of the infidel may not make it back!).

Sobia #47 Sorry if I sounded more nasty than I meant to be (I must remember to be more precise in the level of nastiness in my post). :-) But seriously, isnt it sad that we cannot remember and mourn the appalling murder of a person who was a father, a husband, and son, and a brother without someone explaining that we are wrong in doing so?
And you are wrong in assuming that I am calling all Indians ``Lowlife`` on this board - please re-read carefully what I wrote, and you will see that I am referring to two individuals and putting you in their company. if you had been on chowk as long as I have been, I dont think you would disagree on my assessment of Jay. The only rational assessment I can think of is that the man has been driven mad by his hatred for Pakistan. But I did injustice to you and hxn (or whatever his name is) in lumping you with Jay. I have the pleasure of knowing many fine people from India, and Jay bears no relationship to them (other than in his own demented mind).

sobia:

...to gain a better perspective i hope you have read # 47 in full…specially where it mentions shaikh omar...

....some other random thoughts that come to mind:

---think it was last year when mushy came to address the UN session...shaikh omar had already surrendered to isi the week before...but mushy was not informed of this...and he kept assuring his hosts that daniel`s murderer would soon be caught…it appeared that isi is a power unto itself…

---this shaikh omar character alongwith ‘maulana’ azhar of Jaish infamy languished in indian jails for years...the GOI failed royally to prosecute or bring charges against him...

…t

sobia #35

``All I’m saying is there is NO justification for ANYONE’s killing``

don`t agree there either. the people who murdered Danny Pearl should be killed. the people who murdered 3,000 americans on sept 11, 2001 should be killed. the people who killed 200 in bali should be killed. and those that minimize the actions of these groups? talk about ``root causes`` and ``freedom struggles``? something should be done about them too b/c they allow these murderers to thrive...

tahmed

when someone talks about pearl`s murder, its understandable that you as a pakistani, might get defensive (like sobia). but the fact remains, his murder is tied to fundamental pakistani hatreds.

the evidence?

1.) as sadna pointed out in a previous post, omar sheikh was released from an indian jail through an airline hijacking a few years ago. pakistan let him roam free. why? b/c he was a terrorist in kashmir, killing foreigners and indians, and even ``law abiding`` pakistanis are sympathetic to this cause (not to mention willing to sell pakistan to anyone who`ll get kashmir - including al qaeda). if omar sheikh wasn`t killing people in kashmir, do you think you pakistanis would`ve let him go free?

2. people like sobia. look at the way she minimizes pearl, saying that people only care about him b/c he`s white and jewish. if that isn`t pakistani hatred, then what is? you, admirably, disavowed those views, but come on yaar, do you seriously think her views are in the minority amongst pakis...

truth hurts, doesn`t it?

PS: apologies!...the post # is 42.

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hxn #54 And so, would you extend your logic and attribute the murders of the christian missionaries in India, or the Gujrat burnings of families, to the fundamental hatreds of Indians?
Murderers roam free in Pakistan, and that is bad indeed. But let me humbly point out that criminals win elections and become Chief Ministers in India, as in case of Modi. And that is very very bad indeed.

Having performed the ritual India-Pakistan contest, let me say seriously that as a Pakistani I am angry that the Pakistan government has allowed known murderers from India go free in Pakistan. We should these criminals back to India - we have enough criminals of our own polluting society, we dont need any more.

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temporal
GOI failed royally? They were in jail, thats the maximum punishment one usually gets in India. People donot get death sentences arbitrarily in India like in Pakistan. Death sentenceas are handed out only in the rarest of the rare cases. Even Rajiv Gandhi`s killers/conspirators went through very long court and clemency process. One of them was finally granted clemency and the others were executed only last year or so.

tahmed # 55

i`ll concede that point.

the brutal murder of the christian missionaries and his children was absolutley sick and a huge blot on india, as has been all the communal violence in recent years including Gujurat.

and i also concede that these events are related to larger trends in indian society.

i hope that the slow march to market reform and greater freedom that pluralistic india has embarked on will allow us to overcome these evils.

i might be on shakier ground here and few pakis on this board may believe me, but as you, even when i put ``the ritual`` indo-pak contest aside, i do feel pakistan is in worse shape. the pearl murder is directly linked to sept. 11, to kashmir, and the fundamental muslim resentments/inferiority complexes about other religions and peoples that led to the creation of the country in the first place - just an ever downward spiraling whirlwind of hate. but hey, that`s just my take.

Correction to #58
In 1999 clemency petitions were filed with the President of India. In 2001, and after Sonia Gandhi`s appeal to award clemency, the death sentence of one of them who was a woman with a child was commuted to life imprisonment. The other 3 have not been hanged yet.

hxn #59 I think we have had a reasonable discussion, even if we have somewhat different views on the situation regarding religious extremism in India vs. Pakistan.
I think we both agree that religious extremism is a problem in both countries. Whether religious extremism is a bigger problem in India than in Pakistan, and whether there is broader based support for religious extremism than in India than in Pakistan is something we could debate ad nauseum, but it would be a bit like debating which of the two ugly sisters is uglier.
Instead, I think let us both wish all the best to the future of this armpit of the world we call home (i.e. the subcontinent), and let us both be thankful that the average person in the subcontinent has more sense than the ``educated specimen`` who visit chowk for purposes of engaging in India-Pakistan self-aggrandizement and mutual-insult competitions.
Cheers :-)

Urstruly …

While you are working on explaining the peaceful aspects of your Islam … feel free to also shed light on the peaceful aspects of killing people for apostasy and adultery …

I know hotel California is one thing … and its unplugged version was a bad idea … but must we drag this nonsense into real life … and hunt people down like hound dogs … if, after once flirting with the idea of waiting for 70 chicks in the hereafter, they decided that a bird in hand is better than two in the bush?

So they get to pick … either do the nasty and get killed for adultery … or revoke their pledge to the Almighty and get killed for apostasy. I know a choice between coke and pepsi is always good … but isn’t this death-fatwa thing pushing the limits too far? And besides, what good has your Islam done to your goat-screwing Arab leaders anyway … they cannot even hold a f#%king summit on Iraq … without shouting obscenities and death threats to each other. The live telecast was taken off the air … I read recently.

I know you got angry when Junior warned … “either you are with us, or against us” … but he was probably quoting from your Quran or a book on ahadith. After all … you are the one to tell us that Mohammad had people killed for merely making fun of him … and that Quran commands us to wage jihad against those worshipping cows and kangaroos.

Ground reality is that you mullahs are screaming for civil rights and due process … because you are now dealing with someone who carries a bigger stick. You started this mess … now deal with it. Or better yet … with one hand holding your shalwar above the ankles … grab a talwar in the other hand … yell takbeer … and make a dash towards that big white building. You’ll become famous overnight … and will immediately get to make out with 70 chicks all at once!

FORGIVE ME SAMIA SARWAR,

I know my name is similar to yours,
only an ``i`` is missing
Stll I cannot remeber your name
It is strange that a man cross the border
That too a horrible hindoo
Keeps your name alive

I talked to tahmed about you
And he said that your were no-innocent
And according to tahmed
That is certain jihadic death

I talked to YLH about you
He quoted from wolpert
He quoted from one speach
And he kept quoting, I left him alone.

I still cannot remeber you
Many like you are dead
Why should you be special
Because I could be you tomorrow.

A poem NOt by Ayesha Sarwari

adnan 45

``And never have I seen an Indian to mention the human cost of oppression at the hand of their armed forces in Kashmir and the human cost of Muslims slaughtered in Gujrat as the police and other authorities stood at the side lines.``

Pl read dawn, the daily report to the jihadic supporters in various parts of the world. There are 70,000 killed in kashmir, 800,000 troops in srinagar, 8000 muslims killed in gujarat.

Now can you tell me how many shaheeds in pakistan, the type that left the madrassa, went looking for the kafirs to kill, the archetypal homo erectus pakistanicus. Tell me adnan, how many killed, sorry, martyred in afghanistan, how many in kashmir. As a pakistani, no one keeps count, they are the un-countables of pakistan, the men driven by the species specific urge to kill homo sapiens. There is no ther country in the world today where men have gone of their own volition, no ecnomic incentives, but the raw urge to kill in the promise of a heaven. Adnan, pakistan is singular in this achievement to the extent that anthropologists have coined a new term, hono erectus pakistanicus.

Perceptive comment from an Indian Express columnist. Syed Naqvi has also made similar points in his writing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Fighting Barista Brahminism?


The VHP and the rise and rise of ‘Shudra Hindutva’


Sagarika Ghose




When members of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad assembled in New Delhi last week they complained that they were treated with scorn. They said English-speaking secularists made fun of them. They said they were ridiculed by the ‘Macaulayist’ media.

The VHP-Bajrang Dal has, over the last decade, added a new enemy to their list of evil influences on Hindu rashtra. Not just the Muslim and the Christian, but also the ‘English speaking’ ‘western educated’ class, exemplified in the persona of the ‘secularist’. The secularist is not recognised merely by his stance on the Babri masjid or the Shah Bano case or on terrorism. Instead, a secularist is anyone who listens to western music, eats in Italian restaurants or does not sport a tilak and dhoti. A secularist is an upper caste individual employed in a corporate job or the private sector. As Pravin Togadia never tires of saying,‘‘Our enemies are the Three Ms: Muslims, Macaulayists and Marxists.’’ Togadia hates secularists but loves the fact that they exist because without them he would lose his “son of the soil” appeal. “Please argue with me,” he pleads.


Yet Togadia’s critique conceals the increasing class and caste anger of the VHP. The VHP’s new definition of ‘Brahminism’ is anyone who is urban, educated and drinks cappuccino at Barista. As a VHP worker said, “Today we may riot against Muslims, tomorrow we will fight against Brahmin dogs if the need arises.”

When the VHP was first formed in the sixties as a loose organisation to feed into the programmes of the RSS and strengthen Hindu feelings among the diaspora, among its founders were Brahmins like K.M. Munshi and Ramaprasad Mookerjee. Subsequently during the Ramjanmabhoomi movement, caste differences were suppressed in the overall mission of creating a Hindu monolith. But over the last decade, the VHP has become transformed from an organisation of traders, petty industrialists and provincial bureaucrats to a grouping whose cadres are made up predominantly of Other Backward Castes (OBCs). As Manjari Katju writes in the recently published Vishwa Hindu Parishad and Indian Politics, “with change in social composition, the VHP’s language of mobilisation changed from mild socio-religious criticism to a vitriolic attack on the entire social and political ideology of the state”.

As part of the deliberate campaign of ‘social engineering’ and bringing lower castes back to the Hindu fold, the VHP-BD is as much a party of Shudras as it is of Brahmins, for whom strident oratory is in fact a deliberate drama enacted to gain votes and social recognition.

Take a spot poll. Earlier generations of the VHP leadership may have been Kayastha like Giriraj Kishore or Bania like Ashok Singhal. But new generations are all OBCs or Shudras. Pravin Togadia? Patel, sometimes classed as ‘Backwards’. Narendra Modi? OBC. Uma Bharti? OBC. Vinay Katiyar of the Bajrang Dal? OBC. Acharya Dharmendra? OBC. Sadhvi Rithambhara? OBC. Kalyan Singh? OBC. The VHP is thus, today, a movement that has been described by a Dalit historian as a movement of ‘Shudra Hindutva’. VHP Hindutva was once obsessed with the aim of bridging caste divides in the creation of the Hindu vote. But now it increasingly sees itself as anti upper-caste, anti-English and anti-metropolitan. In the VHP’s terms, even BJP members like Jaswant Singh or Arun Jaitley or Arun Shourie or even Vajpayee himself are all the ‘secularist’ enemy.

Today certain VHP workers claim a self-image akin to the revolutionaries of the French revolution, who guillotined the elite on the street. “Why do you accuse us of being violent? Didn’t the French kill their rajas and ranis?” Some VHP members say that their hero is Parashuram, slayer of upper castes. They speak of the need to fight the “new Brahmins”, who must be “fought because of their monopoly on English-language education, employment and access to international careers”. While the RSS may be made of genteel Brahmin patriarchs, the Shudra Hindutva of the VHP is a violent protest movement against all elitism, a social revolution aimed to snatch power from the speakers of angrezi and the wearers of bell bottoms. “Shudra Hindutva” is not only fiercely competitive with Muslims but also enraged at being left out of the new economy.

In the anti-Muslim riots in north India in the eighties, Kurmis, Jats and other OBCs formed the main fighting force. The VHP cadres in Gujarat are predominantly OBC. It was the OBCs in the Gujarat Bajrang Dal, not Brahmins or Banias, who were the frontrunners of the attacks against Muslims. OBCs are seen to be more anti-Muslim than Brahmins precisely because their professions place them in direct competition. A Muslim artisan’s or a Muslim tailor’s main competitor is not the Hindu Brahmin or the Hindu Kshtriya but the Hindu OBC.

Many OBC fortunes have been made by membership in the VHP or Bajrang Dal. The BJP’s trishul distribution campaigns in Rajasthan are taking place among OBCs, apart from Dalits and Adivasis, with the promise to hand them Kshtriya status and an avenue for upward mobility. Membership in the VHP thus provides a higher caste status in the Hindu hierarchy. Also, OBC youth who fail their school-leaving examinations or suffer academically because of the lack of English, can often find employment in the VHP. There are many instances of ABVP activists or Reddy businessmen not only becoming affluent through membership of the VHP but also acquiring liquor contracts, real estate and licences to set up private colleges.

The Congress has failed to understand OBC aspirations. The OBC parties led by Laloo Prasad Yadav and Mulayam Singh Yadav are in mutual competition with the VHP, but one only has to cast one’s eye at the chic Diggy Raja to the Scindia scion, to trendies like Aiyar, Soni, Alva and Nath, to realise that the leadership of the Congress is still suvarna and paternalistic. The restless new cadres powering their way into the VHP and the BJP cannot be won over by pointing them towards Kabir’s pluralism or the excellent bhajans of Mirabai. What they are looking for is a counter-identity that provides social status, seats in Parliament but, most importantly, the jobs and privileges of the English-speaking class. They may not ever get these jobs, but the VHP provides, at least, a place in the social sun. Togadia who grew up in an Ahmedabad chawl may never get to play tennis at the Delhi Gymkhana but being in the VHP has guaranteed him a place in a television studio

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Adnan Rafiq at # 30:

``But, the attrocities committed by Benazir and Naseer-ullah Babar during the early nineties come very close to the definition of genocide. Extra-judicial killings, false arrests, harassement of family members, intimidation of local newspapers, etc. were the order of the day during their time. Perhaps, a more balanced approach would divide the blame equally between MQM and the establishment.``

I have problem with the over-utilized words of genocide (killing of an ethnic group) and ethnic cleansing. How do you campare targetted killing of less than 100 MQM activists (let us take a maximum of 1,000 or let us even go beyond that and take 5,000) with the following:

1. The killing of 700,000 Jews by Germans during the WW2 that is termed a genocide.
2. The killing of 200,000 Tootsies by Hootoes that has also been termed a genocide.
3. The death and destruction of Bosnians, Croats and others (well over 100,000 by Serbians that has been termed ethnic cleansing.
4. The report of NH parliamentarians that you have referred to arjun_m is also talking about genocide (take the usually quoted figure of 75,000 by Pakistanis).

IMHO, MQM`s killings cannot be termed either a genocide or an ethnic cleansing. But I agree that even this is not permissible.

jay #64:
Jay, those who live in glass houses don`t throw rocks at others. No one`s denying that Pakistan did not commit attrocities in the name of religion. No one`s denying our shameful role in Afghanistan and the support of terrorist activities in Kashmir or the way we treat our minorities. And, I am not stupid to expect a handful of New Hampshire lawmakers to put a dent in American foreign policy visavis Pakistan and India. But, the fact remains that they went there and saw something that runs contrary to all the claims made by Vajpayee and the rest of the saffron brigade. But, as usual not a single Indian has bothered to accept that perhaps there is some truth in it. Its complete denial as usual. As far as they are concerned the lawmakers are compulsive liars. Isn`t it?

I am not out here to prove that Pakistan is better or to support the policies of our armed forces. I don`t. I have said many times that Pakistan should get out of Kashmir immediately and focus on its internal problems (which seem to be growing exponentially) first. Also, given the size of India (in terms of size, population and economy) it is a suidical attempt for Pakistan to try to achieve parity. This competition will hurt Pakistan a lot more than India. But, given the stranglehold our military has on all aspects of Pakistani life, I am not holding my breath.

However, I do have a problem with the `holier than thou` attitude of many Indians. The fact remains that the Indian army has also committed crimes in Kashmir - murders, rapes, harassment, illegal arrests, etc. These facts are acknowledged by many international humanitarian agencies including Amnesty Internationa, and now the lawmakers. The fact remains that India has never honored Nehru`s promise to the U.N. for a plesbicite in Kashmir. The fact remains that Kashmiris are not happy with the current Indian government. Yes, they are not happy with the terrorists who cross over from Pakistan (please note that I am calling them terrorists not jehadis or freedom fighters), but that does not mean that all is hunky dory for Kashmiris. But, not a single Indian is willing to admit it. Instead of admitting the merciless slaughtering of Muslims or sikhs in the eighties, you guys are busy telling us about Taliban, Afghanistan and madrassas.

ahmadzai#67

THe question is not whether 1 mohajir was killed by state or 10,000, the question is of extra-judicial murders. State has no authority to use its apparatus to murder any citizen under absolutely no circumstances. Otherwise, it fails the purpose of having a judiciary or even of establishment of a civilized society. In this case state has overstepped its authority under local constitution, law, and recognized international laws.

A report was published by the GOP in 2001, which admitted that since 1986, about 35,000+ people were killed in Karachi because of ethnic violence. The loss of property and productivity was in billions of rupees. The independent sources put the casualty figure into 50Ks.

As for your question of ethnic cleansing goes, I am a witness to the murder and a survivor. I have survived this civil war through four years and lived to tell, when rest of the country is in denial and suffering from collective amnesia. I have seen mass migrations of Pathans, Punjabis, Sindhis, and Mohajirs from each others areas. I have witnessed the trains full of families leaving from Karachi to Punjab and upper Sindh. There were camps established in Sadiqabad and Bahawalpur to give relief to those refugees, who were fleeing in their own country to save their lives.

The murder of Mohajirs by state apparatus in early `90s qualifies as genocide if you look up the dictionary.

The military establishment of Paksitan started this ethnic violence in `80s to break the political clout of PPP in rural sindh and that of JI in urban sindh. They are the one who have occupied the major resources of this land. Because of this the economic disparity and unconstitutional distribution of revenues has created discontent between the provinces. This situation has not gotten any better. This government has not done any different. They have again used state apparatus against one Mohajir group and sided with other to establish its government in sindh after lota elections.

Where are the constitutional rights of the people?

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adnan_rafiq #64

[quote]
The fact remains that India has never honored Nehru`s promise to the U.N. for a plesbicite in Kashmir.
[/quote]

Do you have any knowledge of the conditions of this plebiscite? The very first condition is the complete withdrawal of all non-indian forces from ALL of J&K. Do you think this condition can ever be fulfilled? Why did Pakistan refuse to act on this from 1948 to 1971?

We can all selectively pick up bits of history and fling it in each others faces. This propaganda is the trademark of forces like the VHP which emphasize only one incomplete aspect of history in terms of hindu-muslim relations. You are doing exactly the same thing with respect to J&K.

The solution to J&K has been on offer since Vajpayee`s brave trip to Lahore. But the pakistani military and jihadis cannot accept it. Hence Kargil, hence the public affirmations of the Kashmir jihad, the ludicrous Agra summit in which reasonable people all over india concluded that Musharraf was an irresponsible clown.

You can keep going with your victim complex and tours to naive and uninformed parties. You can keep on funding murder and terrorism (and then wonder why there is extremist violence in your society!!). Or you can work for a practical solution which respects ground realities.

Sattar2:

``Ground reality is that you mullahs are screaming for civil rights and due process … because you are now dealing with someone who carries a bigger stick. ``

Exactly, My dear Sir. Exactly!!! The hypocricy of the Mullahs is astounding. The Taliban did diddly squat for human rights, but cry and moan when theres are violated.

TAhmed:

``average person in the subcontinent has more sense than the ``educated specimen`` who visit chowk for purposes of engaging in India-Pakistan self-aggrandizement and mutual-insult competitions. ``

Oh c`mon...I am an educated ``specimen`` and I frequently take part in mutual insult competitions. But c`mon, it`s just time pass. I believe that most people in real life would remarkably be more sophisticated. God knows, I get on well with Pakistanis in real life, though, we still occaisionally trade insults. Its a guy thing. You shouldn`t take it too seriously.