Forgive me, Danny

Sattar

You are a liar and a slanderer. You lie knowingly and therefore, lose respect with people. I oppose anti-ahmadi legislation and called it anti-Islamic and anti-constitutional and you know it. I do not support killing or death penalty for blasphemy as you must have read in my artcle on blasphemy law. As a matter of fact I oppose death penalty for any crime including that for a rapist and murderer of a 7 year old; and I have argued that in the article and in the debate that followed. I think one who lies is the one who practices hatred. May Lord cleanse your heart of this hatred for the people who do not share your belief and show you the light.



http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001344&channel=university%20ave&start=620&end=629&page=63&chapter=7#33

sattar2: Please excuse this interruption to the scholarly debate between you and urstruly. I happened to come across this post from our old (but young) friend anNy that was addressed to you on another board:

#113 by anNy on March 3, 2003 9:07am PT
excuse digression please
------
sattar2
can u please email me at annythedud@yahoo.com ASAP.
Thanks

Adnan Rafiq at # 30:

Your analysis is good since it departs from the blame game.

Just fyi, when I was referring to education as a competitive edge for Mohajirs, I had Sindh`s urban areas in my mind. There is no denying the fact that it was educated `Mohajirs` who were driving the economic prosperity of these areas and of Pakistan in general through their mid and senior management skills.

About Beharis, they settled in East Pakistan and should have become its citizens. Its like expecting Afghan Mohajirs settled in Pakistan to extend them our citizenship too. As it is, none of them wants to return. Hence, the incentivization by UN to send them back.

But I agree with you that a solution should have been found for their absorption by Pakistan-BD joint efforts.

UNDP and honour killings



The undersigned organizations are deeply disappointed by the response given by the UNDP representative to the open letter by Ms Faryal Gauhar. Several rights organizations have already registered their concern with the UNDP and the Planning Commission, Government of Pakistan, over the inclusion of Sarwar Khan Mohmand in the meeting organized by both these agencies in Islamabad on Feb 6.

Samia Sarwar`s murder put the spotlight on the practice of honour killing in Pakistan. International and national human rights forums, including human rights mechanisms of the United Nations, have voiced their condemnation and concern over this practice.

///The day that aisha dedicated this poem to the dead daniel pearl, in pakistan pak govt has appointed a person implicated in the killing of samia sarwar to a senior position in a fitting tribute to honour killing in pakistan. Aisha, you have the pulse of the pak people.

FORGIVE ME SAIMA,

i KNEW THAT you AN EDUCATED WOMAN sAIMA

was killed in the office of our

great human rights activist asma jahangir,

I know saima that our

elected reps refused to condemn the killings,
I know saima that you died in vain,

I know saima that the it is legal to kill women,

I know saima that all that you wanted aws
to get away from your lecherous husband,

I know saima that you died for something so simple,

But saima, I am an educated pakistani
education can make no change to the social values imbibbed through my mothers milk,

I am a proud pakistani and I cannot go against the book,
and I know that ny country is an islamic one,
please understand that I am a proud pakistani,
pl know that I respect the laws of pakistan
and no one was arrested for your killing and I feel no sorrow for you,
because that is the law and that is pakistan.

re: hxn

you guys hate everyone - the west, americans, indians, the jews, yourselves - you name it - and the problems of the muslims and pakistanis are everyone else`s fault but yours, right?//

Nope, don`t hate anyone...not the Americans, not the Jews and no, not even the Indians, though you`re very surprised to hear that, aren`t you? Because since I`m Pakistani and Muslim, YOU assume I hate everyone because that`s what you`re fed through your media and politicians. I think what`s happening to the Muslims all over the world is as much their fault as anyone`s. In fact, we’re more to blame and the sad reality is, we’re not doing anything about it. I also believe what`s happening to Pakistanis is also to a large part our own fault. But that`s not the point. The point is that there`s a proverb in Urdu: Jis ki laathi, uss ki bhains - the person who has the power rules the world. I`m not resenting anyone their power, but I don`t believe in justifying the ABUSE of power, as is seen time and again all over the world. And power IS abused when people die in other parts of the world and their deaths are not even worth a grain of salt, as compared to what happens to someone who happens to belong to the most powerful country in the world. The truth is that Danny Pearl got the coverage BECAUSE he was who he was. Any other person who had been killed this way would NOT have been given this much importance – again, power play. Who is downplaying Pearl’s murder? Not me. I don’t say he should’ve been killed, I don’t say his murder is justified. All I’m saying is there is NO justification for ANYONE’s killing, be it Pearl’s or someone in the Gaza strip. Now whether you understand what I’m trying to say or you keep on lambasting me is your prerogative.

Re: ahmedzai

If the Pakistanis being caught are innocent, the injustice will lose. Justice will win. Eventually, all of them will be free. Let us just swallow our pain for a while and prepare ourselves for the future.

Sorry for being cynical, but I don’t think justice wins all the time. In fact, more often than not, it doesn’t, especially when those in power don’t know the meaning of the word, and don’t care to find out – unfortunately!

Tahmed32:

because Danny Pearl was white or Jewish his death should not be mourned. To say that hundreds are killed every day and so one death should not be mourned, which is essentially what these people are saying, is the worst possible reasoning I can think of//

Because Pearl was white and Jewish is because his death got the coverage it did, which is lucky for him. If he had been a coal black African, it wouldn’t have made it to the back pages of the Daily Hicksville Times, Michigan. But it’s not about NOT mourning him…it’s about mourning JUST him and ignoring the rest of the world’s plight. There’s a difference.

#24 by adnan_rafiq on March 3, 2003 10:59am PT

[Don`t worry about the saffron brigade trying to find faults in a sincere apology. These are the same people who accuse moderate Muslims of not speaking out against terrorism or the attrocities committed in the name of our religion. But, when someone does, its readily interpreted as appeasement. Damned if we do, damned if we don`t! Clearly, there is a much more deep-rooted insecurity and complex at work here which does not let our neighbors enjoy their recent success]

My dear Adnan, what about your own countrymen who have expressed their disagreement over this ode to Daniel Pearl? Will you accuse them of being RAW agents?

Your own low self-esteem is exposed when you define terrorism committed in the name of religion as condemnable only when the victims are the goras, not the countless ordinary victims of terrorism that are commonplace in Pakistan.

re ahmedzai #38
[ ... About Beharis, they settled in East Pakistan and should have become its citizens. Its like expecting Afghan Mohajirs settled in Pakistan to extend them our citizenship too. As it is, none of them wants to return. Hence, the incentivization by UN to send them back. ...]

Hunh? I`m sorry but your argument makes no sense. Those Biharis were `Pakistani` citizens living in East Pakistan. Its not a question of whether we should extend them our citizenship or not - they already ARE citizens. On the other hand, Afghan Mohajirs were never Pakistani to being with, so you are really comparing apples to oranges here. And, they ALL want to return, thats why they are living in refugee camps in Bangladesh and not in Dhaka or Chittagong.

P.S. On a personal note, however, I am in favor of extending our citizenship to those Afghanis who have lived in Pakistan for more than ten years. Their children and families are well grounded in Pakistani cities and it would be cruel to send them back to a place where they have (at least for now) no future.

``And power IS abused when people die in other parts of the world and their deaths are not even worth a grain of salt, as compared to what happens to someone who happens to belong to the most powerful country in the world. The truth is that Danny Pearl got the coverage BECAUSE he was who he was.``

///Above is from a post by shobia, a pakistani. It is amzing that a pakistani should complain about deaths being not worth a grain of salt. It is pakistan and the muslims who created the jihadists, the fodder whose life is not worth anything, the un-countables of pakistan. Never have I seen a pakistani on chowk to mention the human cost of jihad to pakistan.

The hall mark of the jihadic attack is worthless ness of human life and rest of the world are apalled by it. It is this blinkered vsion, high lighted in the above post that is the bane of islam. A pakistani complaining about the worthlessness of human life, after several thousand ``martyred`` in afghanista, kashmir, chechniya, kenya.... It is the great poet, aisha who values the life of pearl and condemns the life of samia sarwar simply because in pakistan under the jihadic protocol pak life is not worth anything. Sobia..please have mercy on us.

apologise for this non-commerical interruption....this article in today`s rediff has some bearing on the poem and discussions:

________________________________________________________

The curious case of Khalid Sheikh

March 04, 2003


Khalid Sheikh Mohammad is being projected by US officials and the army of so-called non-governmental counter-terrorism experts, who have sprung up since 9/11, as if he is the Field Marshal Montgomery or General Patton or General Rommel of Al Qaeda, but his case is getting curiouser and curiouser. Just like the earlier case about the kidnapping and murder of US journalist Daniel Pearl.

Remember the Pearl case? Pakistan`s Inter-Services Intelligence claimed to have solved the case without recovering the dead body and prosecuted Sheikh Omar and his accomplices. The court was told they were the only plotters who deserved to be convicted and sentenced to death.

Even as the trial was mid-way, Pakistani security agencies, while investigating another case, fell upon a group of some other terrorists belonging to the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen (International). During the interrogation, they surprised Pakistani and US intelligence agencies by claiming it was they who had killed Pearl. They led the police to a spot on the outskirts of Karachi where Pearl`s remains were found buried. Forensic tests confirmed their finding and the remains were subsequently handed over to his widow.

Under the law, when a confession made by a suspect leads to some material recovery such as a murder weapon or a dead body, there is an automatic presumption that the entire confession is correct. So, if the Pakistani and US agencies had followed the due process of law, they should have withdrawn the case from court, re-investigated it and submitted a fresh charge-sheet.

They did nothing of the sort. Instead, they kept away information about the recovery of Pearl`s remains and the arrests of the new suspects from the court. When the defence counsel for Sheikh Omar asked the court to take cognisance of media reports in this regard and order a re-investigation, the court declined to do so. It sentenced Sheikh Omar to death and the other accused to life imprisonment. Their appeals have not been disposed off because Pakistani officials have not yet sorted out the confusion created by the recovery of Pearl`s remains on information provided by some terrorists who had not been prosecuted in the case.

On March 1, 2003, a joint team of the ISI and US intelligence raided a house in Rawalpindi in an area where many retired officers of the Pakistan army and the ISI live and arrested three people, one of them a Pakistani. One of the arrested men was identified as Khalid Sheikh Mohammad and he was handed over to US intelligence officials, who flew him out to the US naval base on Diego Garcia, where a secret detention centre has been functioning since March 2002, away from the prying eyes of the media and international human rights organisations.

US officials and the Arthur Koestlers of the war on terrorism went to town with fanciful accounts of what a great catch it was, what a spectacular success for the US and Pakistani agencies etc. One ex-CIA official even claimed it was the greatest arrest ever made in the fight against terrorism since the second World War. Mohammad was made into a legend just as they had made Osama bin Laden into one after 9/11. They had earlier projected bin Laden as if he was one of those innumerable gods in Hindu mythology, with 10 heads, 20 arms and 20 legs, present anywhere and everywhere. Another similar god was created in the personage of Mohammad.

Even as this legend was filling up media space, the Pakistani authorities did a volte face within 24 hours and denied that Mohammad had been taken out of Pakistan. He was being interrogated in Pakistani territory by Pakistani officials, they maintained. Faisal Saleh Hayat, Pakistan`s interior minister, even denied that the US had requested his extradition. He added that Mohammad would first be tried in Pakistan for offences before considering his extradition. Hayat confounded the confusion by saying since Mohammad is a Kuwaiti national, if at all he is extradited, he would be sent to Kuwait and not to the US.

Why this confusion? No credible answer is available. There is speculation galore in Pakistan, uncorroborated by evidence. Amongst the speculation are:


When the Americans took Mohammad to Diego Garcia, they realised they had identified him incorrectly. They handed him back to the ISI and asked it to handle the mess as best as it can.
An ISI official brought to the notice of his seniors that after the encounter in Karachi on September 11, 2002, in which Ramzi Binalshibh was captured, the officer in charge of the raid had submitted a report to the headquarters claiming to have killed Mohammad and buried his body without informing the Americans about it.

Sheikh Omar`s defence counsel has drawn the attention of the appeals court to reports in the foreign media that it was Mohammad who masterminded Pearl`s kidnapping and murder and pointed out that handing him over to the US without trying him in Pakistan vitiated the case against his client.

Pakistani officials have further tied themselves into knots by stating that Mohammad is in their custody. If so, his friends and relatives are entitled to move a writ of habeas corpus to produce him before a court. Officials of the Jamaat-e-Islami have already announced their intention to do so and the ISI has been trying frantically to pressurise them not to do so.

The Pakistani supreme court, while pronouncing judgment in a different case on March 3, 2003, has added to the confusion by ruling that Al Qaeda is not a terrorist organisation under Pakistani laws since the Musharraf government has not so far declared it to be so.

On August 14, 2001, Musharraf declared the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and the Shia extremist Sipah Mohammad as terrorist organisations. On January 15, 2002, he added the Lashkar-e-Tayiba, the Jaish-e-Mohammad, the Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan, the Tehrik Jaffria Pakistan and an organisation active in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas to this list. But, till today, he has not declared Al Qaeda, the Taliban, the HUM and the Harkat-ul-Jihad-al-Islami as terrorist organisations. The supreme court has ruled that Al Qaeda could not be called a terrorist organisation in Pakistan till the government issued a notification under the Anti Terrorist Act of 1997 to declare it to be so.

What is happening in Pakistan would make a good case study of how not to wage a war on terrorism.

Sobia #35 You write ``But it’s not about NOT mourning him (Pearl)…it’s about mourning JUST him and ignoring the rest of the world’s plight. There’s a difference. ``
What you are saying is that because we cannot mourn every single tragedy that takes place in the world, we should not mourn any tragedy at all. I hope you will realize the absurdity in what you are saying. Again, I repeat Umarmurtaza`s advice earlier on this board: If you cannot speak any good about someone who has died, it is best to remain silent. Skip this board if Pearl`s death means nothing to you. But dont try to provide explanations on why his death should not be mourned.
Also, dont use it to score points about how bad Pakistanis are (as Hxh and that Hindutva Jay and some other lowlife from India have done on this board).
The truth is that many of us are too small minded to be able to relate to people outside our own community and to see others as human beings like us. You (and Jay and Hxh) see Pearl as white and jewish. Most people see Pearl as the father of an unborn child who leaves behind a young widow, and a brave man who was smiling in pictures that came out of his captivity and who was murdered in a particularly cold-blooded and brutal manner.

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//Skip this board if Pearl`s death means nothing to you. But dont try to provide explanations on why his death should not be mourned. //

I won`t skip this board because I have as much a right to express my point of view here as you do. If you don`t agree with it, kindly express your opinion and get on with it. Besides, I don`t need to score points with anyone, least of all our neighbors who just kicked our asses in the cricket ground! :-)

//The truth is that many of us are too small minded to be able to relate to people outside our own community and to see others as human beings like us.//

Nice to hear you say these things and then go ahead and call Indians ``low lives``. Hahaha...at least I`m not a hypocrite. I guess people can`t have a civil conversation on Chowk anymore without lambasting others and calling them names. I was better off when I just used to listen and not write back. Take care.

Urstruly Sahib (Re #32)

You are talking from both sides of your mouth.

In the past you have supported declaration of Ahmadis as non-Muslims as ways for society to maintain order … while partly blaming Ahmadis for violence against them. You have ignored the role of you mullah in anti-Ahmadi violence … who have held hostage the limited legal resources of Pakistan … while Ahmadi mosques, businesses, and houses are attacked and destroyed. The simple point is that … it is your mullahs who are also the instigators of violence and oppression.

The blasphemy law article you wrote … was squarely aimed at justifying blasphemy laws. While attempting to argue on basis of “Islam” and “civility”, you clearly sided with oppression and fanaticism on this issue.

You have also argued … that Islam demands jihad against polytheists … for merely preaching polytheism! Absurdity of such a position should require no explanation.

It is foolish to practice hatred and oppression … and expect the outcome to be based on justice and civility. Your failure to accept this shows that … you Sahib, are the problem.

re #43 jay:
[ ... Above is from a post by shobia, a pakistani. It is amzing that a pakistani should complain about deaths being not worth a grain of salt. It is pakistan and the muslims who created the jihadists, the fodder whose life is not worth anything, the un-countables of pakistan. Never have I seen a pakistani on chowk to mention the human cost of jihad to pakistan. ...]

And never have I seen an Indian to mention the human cost of oppression at the hand of their armed forces in Kashmir and the human cost of Muslims slaughtered in Gujrat as the police and other authorities stood at the side lines. The only reason US is quiet in such cases is because of its huge economic interest in India. One can argue that US and India have every right to look after their national interests first. And, I am okay with this line of reasoning, but don`t give me your moral superiority bullshit and lose that holier than thou attitude of yours. Finally, some lawmakers in the US are beginning to call a spade a spade. Read on:

=====================================
US lawmakers flay Indian atrocities

NEW YORK, March 3: A six-member US legislators group from New Hampshire charged the Indian government with committing atrocities in occupied Kashmir and called it a ``genocide and nothing less than holocaust.``

Speaking at a press conference here on Sunday after its return from a fact-finding tour of Kashmir, Representative Robert J. Giuda, who is the Deputy Majority Leader of the New Hampshire assembly, said: ``I would very much like Prime Minister Vajpayee and the Indian government to proof me wrong by letting us visit held Kashmir.``

Mr Giuda complained about the silence from Embassy of India and said: ``I have personally written two letters to the ambassador of India in Washington to grant my delegation visas so that we can visit the Indian side of Kashmir but unfortunately I have received no letter.``

He asked the Indian government to let the UN inspectors, human rights activist, and journalists visit the occupied territory.

New Hampshire Senator Frank V. Sapareto talking about his visit said: ``It is a pure genocide, nothing less then a holocaust - unfortunately by the second largest democracy in the world.``

Mr Sapereto further said: ``Children are being killed by Indian army, this has to stop.``

Rep. Henry W. McElroy Jr. agreeing with the conclusions of his colleagues, said that he had no questions or doubt that the planned and structured genocide was being carried out by the Indian government.

He said: ``We have taken pictures and we will provide this along with our fact-finding sheet to the businesses that deal with Indian companies and ask them to stop doing business with India.

``There is no doubt that there is a systematic rape of women in the valley and systematic killing of children by the Indian government,`` McElroy said.

Rep. Michael Albert said that he would write to the US president and the congress to press India to open talks with Pakistan over the Kashmir dispute.

The delegation comprised representatives Robert J. Guide, Saghir A. Tahir, Michael Albert, Henry McElroy, Kimberley Dionne and Senator Frank V. Sapareto.

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