Forgive me, Danny
Aisha Sarwari March 2, 2003
#65 Posted by pmishra2 on March 5, 2003 7:07:46 am
Perceptive comment from an Indian Express columnist. Syed Naqvi has also made similar points in his writing.
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Fighting Barista Brahminism?
The VHP and the rise and rise of ‘Shudra Hindutva’
Sagarika Ghose
When members of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad assembled in New Delhi last week they complained that they were treated with scorn. They said English-speaking secularists made fun of them. They said they were ridiculed by the ‘Macaulayist’ media.
The VHP-Bajrang Dal has, over the last decade, added a new enemy to their list of evil influences on Hindu rashtra. Not just the Muslim and the Christian, but also the ‘English speaking’ ‘western educated’ class, exemplified in the persona of the ‘secularist’. The secularist is not recognised merely by his stance on the Babri masjid or the Shah Bano case or on terrorism. Instead, a secularist is anyone who listens to western music, eats in Italian restaurants or does not sport a tilak and dhoti. A secularist is an upper caste individual employed in a corporate job or the private sector. As Pravin Togadia never tires of saying,‘‘Our enemies are the Three Ms: Muslims, Macaulayists and Marxists.’’ Togadia hates secularists but loves the fact that they exist because without them he would lose his “son of the soil” appeal. “Please argue with me,” he pleads.
Yet Togadia’s critique conceals the increasing class and caste anger of the VHP. The VHP’s new definition of ‘Brahminism’ is anyone who is urban, educated and drinks cappuccino at Barista. As a VHP worker said, “Today we may riot against Muslims, tomorrow we will fight against Brahmin dogs if the need arises.”
When the VHP was first formed in the sixties as a loose organisation to feed into the programmes of the RSS and strengthen Hindu feelings among the diaspora, among its founders were Brahmins like K.M. Munshi and Ramaprasad Mookerjee. Subsequently during the Ramjanmabhoomi movement, caste differences were suppressed in the overall mission of creating a Hindu monolith. But over the last decade, the VHP has become transformed from an organisation of traders, petty industrialists and provincial bureaucrats to a grouping whose cadres are made up predominantly of Other Backward Castes (OBCs). As Manjari Katju writes in the recently published Vishwa Hindu Parishad and Indian Politics, “with change in social composition, the VHP’s language of mobilisation changed from mild socio-religious criticism to a vitriolic attack on the entire social and political ideology of the state”.
As part of the deliberate campaign of ‘social engineering’ and bringing lower castes back to the Hindu fold, the VHP-BD is as much a party of Shudras as it is of Brahmins, for whom strident oratory is in fact a deliberate drama enacted to gain votes and social recognition.
Take a spot poll. Earlier generations of the VHP leadership may have been Kayastha like Giriraj Kishore or Bania like Ashok Singhal. But new generations are all OBCs or Shudras. Pravin Togadia? Patel, sometimes classed as ‘Backwards’. Narendra Modi? OBC. Uma Bharti? OBC. Vinay Katiyar of the Bajrang Dal? OBC. Acharya Dharmendra? OBC. Sadhvi Rithambhara? OBC. Kalyan Singh? OBC. The VHP is thus, today, a movement that has been described by a Dalit historian as a movement of ‘Shudra Hindutva’. VHP Hindutva was once obsessed with the aim of bridging caste divides in the creation of the Hindu vote. But now it increasingly sees itself as anti upper-caste, anti-English and anti-metropolitan. In the VHP’s terms, even BJP members like Jaswant Singh or Arun Jaitley or Arun Shourie or even Vajpayee himself are all the ‘secularist’ enemy.
Today certain VHP workers claim a self-image akin to the revolutionaries of the French revolution, who guillotined the elite on the street. “Why do you accuse us of being violent? Didn’t the French kill their rajas and ranis?” Some VHP members say that their hero is Parashuram, slayer of upper castes. They speak of the need to fight the “new Brahmins”, who must be “fought because of their monopoly on English-language education, employment and access to international careers”. While the RSS may be made of genteel Brahmin patriarchs, the Shudra Hindutva of the VHP is a violent protest movement against all elitism, a social revolution aimed to snatch power from the speakers of angrezi and the wearers of bell bottoms. “Shudra Hindutva” is not only fiercely competitive with Muslims but also enraged at being left out of the new economy.
In the anti-Muslim riots in north India in the eighties, Kurmis, Jats and other OBCs formed the main fighting force. The VHP cadres in Gujarat are predominantly OBC. It was the OBCs in the Gujarat Bajrang Dal, not Brahmins or Banias, who were the frontrunners of the attacks against Muslims. OBCs are seen to be more anti-Muslim than Brahmins precisely because their professions place them in direct competition. A Muslim artisan’s or a Muslim tailor’s main competitor is not the Hindu Brahmin or the Hindu Kshtriya but the Hindu OBC.
Many OBC fortunes have been made by membership in the VHP or Bajrang Dal. The BJP’s trishul distribution campaigns in Rajasthan are taking place among OBCs, apart from Dalits and Adivasis, with the promise to hand them Kshtriya status and an avenue for upward mobility. Membership in the VHP thus provides a higher caste status in the Hindu hierarchy. Also, OBC youth who fail their school-leaving examinations or suffer academically because of the lack of English, can often find employment in the VHP. There are many instances of ABVP activists or Reddy businessmen not only becoming affluent through membership of the VHP but also acquiring liquor contracts, real estate and licences to set up private colleges.
The Congress has failed to understand OBC aspirations. The OBC parties led by Laloo Prasad Yadav and Mulayam Singh Yadav are in mutual competition with the VHP, but one only has to cast one’s eye at the chic Diggy Raja to the Scindia scion, to trendies like Aiyar, Soni, Alva and Nath, to realise that the leadership of the Congress is still suvarna and paternalistic. The restless new cadres powering their way into the VHP and the BJP cannot be won over by pointing them towards Kabir’s pluralism or the excellent bhajans of Mirabai. What they are looking for is a counter-identity that provides social status, seats in Parliament but, most importantly, the jobs and privileges of the English-speaking class. They may not ever get these jobs, but the VHP provides, at least, a place in the social sun. Togadia who grew up in an Ahmedabad chawl may never get to play tennis at the Delhi Gymkhana but being in the VHP has guaranteed him a place in a television studio
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fighting Barista Brahminism?
The VHP and the rise and rise of ‘Shudra Hindutva’
Sagarika Ghose
When members of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad assembled in New Delhi last week they complained that they were treated with scorn. They said English-speaking secularists made fun of them. They said they were ridiculed by the ‘Macaulayist’ media.
The VHP-Bajrang Dal has, over the last decade, added a new enemy to their list of evil influences on Hindu rashtra. Not just the Muslim and the Christian, but also the ‘English speaking’ ‘western educated’ class, exemplified in the persona of the ‘secularist’. The secularist is not recognised merely by his stance on the Babri masjid or the Shah Bano case or on terrorism. Instead, a secularist is anyone who listens to western music, eats in Italian restaurants or does not sport a tilak and dhoti. A secularist is an upper caste individual employed in a corporate job or the private sector. As Pravin Togadia never tires of saying,‘‘Our enemies are the Three Ms: Muslims, Macaulayists and Marxists.’’ Togadia hates secularists but loves the fact that they exist because without them he would lose his “son of the soil” appeal. “Please argue with me,” he pleads.
Yet Togadia’s critique conceals the increasing class and caste anger of the VHP. The VHP’s new definition of ‘Brahminism’ is anyone who is urban, educated and drinks cappuccino at Barista. As a VHP worker said, “Today we may riot against Muslims, tomorrow we will fight against Brahmin dogs if the need arises.”
When the VHP was first formed in the sixties as a loose organisation to feed into the programmes of the RSS and strengthen Hindu feelings among the diaspora, among its founders were Brahmins like K.M. Munshi and Ramaprasad Mookerjee. Subsequently during the Ramjanmabhoomi movement, caste differences were suppressed in the overall mission of creating a Hindu monolith. But over the last decade, the VHP has become transformed from an organisation of traders, petty industrialists and provincial bureaucrats to a grouping whose cadres are made up predominantly of Other Backward Castes (OBCs). As Manjari Katju writes in the recently published Vishwa Hindu Parishad and Indian Politics, “with change in social composition, the VHP’s language of mobilisation changed from mild socio-religious criticism to a vitriolic attack on the entire social and political ideology of the state”.
As part of the deliberate campaign of ‘social engineering’ and bringing lower castes back to the Hindu fold, the VHP-BD is as much a party of Shudras as it is of Brahmins, for whom strident oratory is in fact a deliberate drama enacted to gain votes and social recognition.
Take a spot poll. Earlier generations of the VHP leadership may have been Kayastha like Giriraj Kishore or Bania like Ashok Singhal. But new generations are all OBCs or Shudras. Pravin Togadia? Patel, sometimes classed as ‘Backwards’. Narendra Modi? OBC. Uma Bharti? OBC. Vinay Katiyar of the Bajrang Dal? OBC. Acharya Dharmendra? OBC. Sadhvi Rithambhara? OBC. Kalyan Singh? OBC. The VHP is thus, today, a movement that has been described by a Dalit historian as a movement of ‘Shudra Hindutva’. VHP Hindutva was once obsessed with the aim of bridging caste divides in the creation of the Hindu vote. But now it increasingly sees itself as anti upper-caste, anti-English and anti-metropolitan. In the VHP’s terms, even BJP members like Jaswant Singh or Arun Jaitley or Arun Shourie or even Vajpayee himself are all the ‘secularist’ enemy.
Today certain VHP workers claim a self-image akin to the revolutionaries of the French revolution, who guillotined the elite on the street. “Why do you accuse us of being violent? Didn’t the French kill their rajas and ranis?” Some VHP members say that their hero is Parashuram, slayer of upper castes. They speak of the need to fight the “new Brahmins”, who must be “fought because of their monopoly on English-language education, employment and access to international careers”. While the RSS may be made of genteel Brahmin patriarchs, the Shudra Hindutva of the VHP is a violent protest movement against all elitism, a social revolution aimed to snatch power from the speakers of angrezi and the wearers of bell bottoms. “Shudra Hindutva” is not only fiercely competitive with Muslims but also enraged at being left out of the new economy.
In the anti-Muslim riots in north India in the eighties, Kurmis, Jats and other OBCs formed the main fighting force. The VHP cadres in Gujarat are predominantly OBC. It was the OBCs in the Gujarat Bajrang Dal, not Brahmins or Banias, who were the frontrunners of the attacks against Muslims. OBCs are seen to be more anti-Muslim than Brahmins precisely because their professions place them in direct competition. A Muslim artisan’s or a Muslim tailor’s main competitor is not the Hindu Brahmin or the Hindu Kshtriya but the Hindu OBC.
Many OBC fortunes have been made by membership in the VHP or Bajrang Dal. The BJP’s trishul distribution campaigns in Rajasthan are taking place among OBCs, apart from Dalits and Adivasis, with the promise to hand them Kshtriya status and an avenue for upward mobility. Membership in the VHP thus provides a higher caste status in the Hindu hierarchy. Also, OBC youth who fail their school-leaving examinations or suffer academically because of the lack of English, can often find employment in the VHP. There are many instances of ABVP activists or Reddy businessmen not only becoming affluent through membership of the VHP but also acquiring liquor contracts, real estate and licences to set up private colleges.
The Congress has failed to understand OBC aspirations. The OBC parties led by Laloo Prasad Yadav and Mulayam Singh Yadav are in mutual competition with the VHP, but one only has to cast one’s eye at the chic Diggy Raja to the Scindia scion, to trendies like Aiyar, Soni, Alva and Nath, to realise that the leadership of the Congress is still suvarna and paternalistic. The restless new cadres powering their way into the VHP and the BJP cannot be won over by pointing them towards Kabir’s pluralism or the excellent bhajans of Mirabai. What they are looking for is a counter-identity that provides social status, seats in Parliament but, most importantly, the jobs and privileges of the English-speaking class. They may not ever get these jobs, but the VHP provides, at least, a place in the social sun. Togadia who grew up in an Ahmedabad chawl may never get to play tennis at the Delhi Gymkhana but being in the VHP has guaranteed him a place in a television studio
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#66 Posted by arjun_m on March 5, 2003 7:07:46 am
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#67 Posted by Ahmadzai on March 5, 2003 7:07:47 am
Adnan Rafiq at # 30:
``But, the attrocities committed by Benazir and Naseer-ullah Babar during the early nineties come very close to the definition of genocide. Extra-judicial killings, false arrests, harassement of family members, intimidation of local newspapers, etc. were the order of the day during their time. Perhaps, a more balanced approach would divide the blame equally between MQM and the establishment.``
I have problem with the over-utilized words of genocide (killing of an ethnic group) and ethnic cleansing. How do you campare targetted killing of less than 100 MQM activists (let us take a maximum of 1,000 or let us even go beyond that and take 5,000) with the following:
1. The killing of 700,000 Jews by Germans during the WW2 that is termed a genocide.
2. The killing of 200,000 Tootsies by Hootoes that has also been termed a genocide.
3. The death and destruction of Bosnians, Croats and others (well over 100,000 by Serbians that has been termed ethnic cleansing.
4. The report of NH parliamentarians that you have referred to arjun_m is also talking about genocide (take the usually quoted figure of 75,000 by Pakistanis).
IMHO, MQM`s killings cannot be termed either a genocide or an ethnic cleansing. But I agree that even this is not permissible.
``But, the attrocities committed by Benazir and Naseer-ullah Babar during the early nineties come very close to the definition of genocide. Extra-judicial killings, false arrests, harassement of family members, intimidation of local newspapers, etc. were the order of the day during their time. Perhaps, a more balanced approach would divide the blame equally between MQM and the establishment.``
I have problem with the over-utilized words of genocide (killing of an ethnic group) and ethnic cleansing. How do you campare targetted killing of less than 100 MQM activists (let us take a maximum of 1,000 or let us even go beyond that and take 5,000) with the following:
1. The killing of 700,000 Jews by Germans during the WW2 that is termed a genocide.
2. The killing of 200,000 Tootsies by Hootoes that has also been termed a genocide.
3. The death and destruction of Bosnians, Croats and others (well over 100,000 by Serbians that has been termed ethnic cleansing.
4. The report of NH parliamentarians that you have referred to arjun_m is also talking about genocide (take the usually quoted figure of 75,000 by Pakistanis).
IMHO, MQM`s killings cannot be termed either a genocide or an ethnic cleansing. But I agree that even this is not permissible.
#68 Posted by adnan_rafiq on March 5, 2003 7:48:27 am
jay #64:
Jay, those who live in glass houses don`t throw rocks at others. No one`s denying that Pakistan did not commit attrocities in the name of religion. No one`s denying our shameful role in Afghanistan and the support of terrorist activities in Kashmir or the way we treat our minorities. And, I am not stupid to expect a handful of New Hampshire lawmakers to put a dent in American foreign policy visavis Pakistan and India. But, the fact remains that they went there and saw something that runs contrary to all the claims made by Vajpayee and the rest of the saffron brigade. But, as usual not a single Indian has bothered to accept that perhaps there is some truth in it. Its complete denial as usual. As far as they are concerned the lawmakers are compulsive liars. Isn`t it?
I am not out here to prove that Pakistan is better or to support the policies of our armed forces. I don`t. I have said many times that Pakistan should get out of Kashmir immediately and focus on its internal problems (which seem to be growing exponentially) first. Also, given the size of India (in terms of size, population and economy) it is a suidical attempt for Pakistan to try to achieve parity. This competition will hurt Pakistan a lot more than India. But, given the stranglehold our military has on all aspects of Pakistani life, I am not holding my breath.
However, I do have a problem with the `holier than thou` attitude of many Indians. The fact remains that the Indian army has also committed crimes in Kashmir - murders, rapes, harassment, illegal arrests, etc. These facts are acknowledged by many international humanitarian agencies including Amnesty Internationa, and now the lawmakers. The fact remains that India has never honored Nehru`s promise to the U.N. for a plesbicite in Kashmir. The fact remains that Kashmiris are not happy with the current Indian government. Yes, they are not happy with the terrorists who cross over from Pakistan (please note that I am calling them terrorists not jehadis or freedom fighters), but that does not mean that all is hunky dory for Kashmiris. But, not a single Indian is willing to admit it. Instead of admitting the merciless slaughtering of Muslims or sikhs in the eighties, you guys are busy telling us about Taliban, Afghanistan and madrassas.
Jay, those who live in glass houses don`t throw rocks at others. No one`s denying that Pakistan did not commit attrocities in the name of religion. No one`s denying our shameful role in Afghanistan and the support of terrorist activities in Kashmir or the way we treat our minorities. And, I am not stupid to expect a handful of New Hampshire lawmakers to put a dent in American foreign policy visavis Pakistan and India. But, the fact remains that they went there and saw something that runs contrary to all the claims made by Vajpayee and the rest of the saffron brigade. But, as usual not a single Indian has bothered to accept that perhaps there is some truth in it. Its complete denial as usual. As far as they are concerned the lawmakers are compulsive liars. Isn`t it?
I am not out here to prove that Pakistan is better or to support the policies of our armed forces. I don`t. I have said many times that Pakistan should get out of Kashmir immediately and focus on its internal problems (which seem to be growing exponentially) first. Also, given the size of India (in terms of size, population and economy) it is a suidical attempt for Pakistan to try to achieve parity. This competition will hurt Pakistan a lot more than India. But, given the stranglehold our military has on all aspects of Pakistani life, I am not holding my breath.
However, I do have a problem with the `holier than thou` attitude of many Indians. The fact remains that the Indian army has also committed crimes in Kashmir - murders, rapes, harassment, illegal arrests, etc. These facts are acknowledged by many international humanitarian agencies including Amnesty Internationa, and now the lawmakers. The fact remains that India has never honored Nehru`s promise to the U.N. for a plesbicite in Kashmir. The fact remains that Kashmiris are not happy with the current Indian government. Yes, they are not happy with the terrorists who cross over from Pakistan (please note that I am calling them terrorists not jehadis or freedom fighters), but that does not mean that all is hunky dory for Kashmiris. But, not a single Indian is willing to admit it. Instead of admitting the merciless slaughtering of Muslims or sikhs in the eighties, you guys are busy telling us about Taliban, Afghanistan and madrassas.
#69 Posted by Urstruly on March 5, 2003 9:12:32 am
ahmadzai#67
THe question is not whether 1 mohajir was killed by state or 10,000, the question is of extra-judicial murders. State has no authority to use its apparatus to murder any citizen under absolutely no circumstances. Otherwise, it fails the purpose of having a judiciary or even of establishment of a civilized society. In this case state has overstepped its authority under local constitution, law, and recognized international laws.
A report was published by the GOP in 2001, which admitted that since 1986, about 35,000+ people were killed in Karachi because of ethnic violence. The loss of property and productivity was in billions of rupees. The independent sources put the casualty figure into 50Ks.
As for your question of ethnic cleansing goes, I am a witness to the murder and a survivor. I have survived this civil war through four years and lived to tell, when rest of the country is in denial and suffering from collective amnesia. I have seen mass migrations of Pathans, Punjabis, Sindhis, and Mohajirs from each others areas. I have witnessed the trains full of families leaving from Karachi to Punjab and upper Sindh. There were camps established in Sadiqabad and Bahawalpur to give relief to those refugees, who were fleeing in their own country to save their lives.
The murder of Mohajirs by state apparatus in early `90s qualifies as genocide if you look up the dictionary.
The military establishment of Paksitan started this ethnic violence in `80s to break the political clout of PPP in rural sindh and that of JI in urban sindh. They are the one who have occupied the major resources of this land. Because of this the economic disparity and unconstitutional distribution of revenues has created discontent between the provinces. This situation has not gotten any better. This government has not done any different. They have again used state apparatus against one Mohajir group and sided with other to establish its government in sindh after lota elections.
Where are the constitutional rights of the people?
#70 Posted by arjun_m on March 5, 2003 9:12:33 am
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#71 Posted by pmishra2 on March 5, 2003 9:12:33 am
adnan_rafiq #64
[quote]
The fact remains that India has never honored Nehru`s promise to the U.N. for a plesbicite in Kashmir.
[/quote]
Do you have any knowledge of the conditions of this plebiscite? The very first condition is the complete withdrawal of all non-indian forces from ALL of J&K. Do you think this condition can ever be fulfilled? Why did Pakistan refuse to act on this from 1948 to 1971?
We can all selectively pick up bits of history and fling it in each others faces. This propaganda is the trademark of forces like the VHP which emphasize only one incomplete aspect of history in terms of hindu-muslim relations. You are doing exactly the same thing with respect to J&K.
The solution to J&K has been on offer since Vajpayee`s brave trip to Lahore. But the pakistani military and jihadis cannot accept it. Hence Kargil, hence the public affirmations of the Kashmir jihad, the ludicrous Agra summit in which reasonable people all over india concluded that Musharraf was an irresponsible clown.
You can keep going with your victim complex and tours to naive and uninformed parties. You can keep on funding murder and terrorism (and then wonder why there is extremist violence in your society!!). Or you can work for a practical solution which respects ground realities.
[quote]
The fact remains that India has never honored Nehru`s promise to the U.N. for a plesbicite in Kashmir.
[/quote]
Do you have any knowledge of the conditions of this plebiscite? The very first condition is the complete withdrawal of all non-indian forces from ALL of J&K. Do you think this condition can ever be fulfilled? Why did Pakistan refuse to act on this from 1948 to 1971?
We can all selectively pick up bits of history and fling it in each others faces. This propaganda is the trademark of forces like the VHP which emphasize only one incomplete aspect of history in terms of hindu-muslim relations. You are doing exactly the same thing with respect to J&K.
The solution to J&K has been on offer since Vajpayee`s brave trip to Lahore. But the pakistani military and jihadis cannot accept it. Hence Kargil, hence the public affirmations of the Kashmir jihad, the ludicrous Agra summit in which reasonable people all over india concluded that Musharraf was an irresponsible clown.
You can keep going with your victim complex and tours to naive and uninformed parties. You can keep on funding murder and terrorism (and then wonder why there is extremist violence in your society!!). Or you can work for a practical solution which respects ground realities.
#72 Posted by stuka on March 5, 2003 9:42:45 am
Sattar2:
``Ground reality is that you mullahs are screaming for civil rights and due process … because you are now dealing with someone who carries a bigger stick. ``
Exactly, My dear Sir. Exactly!!! The hypocricy of the Mullahs is astounding. The Taliban did diddly squat for human rights, but cry and moan when theres are violated.
``Ground reality is that you mullahs are screaming for civil rights and due process … because you are now dealing with someone who carries a bigger stick. ``
Exactly, My dear Sir. Exactly!!! The hypocricy of the Mullahs is astounding. The Taliban did diddly squat for human rights, but cry and moan when theres are violated.
#73 Posted by stuka on March 5, 2003 9:42:45 am
TAhmed:
``average person in the subcontinent has more sense than the ``educated specimen`` who visit chowk for purposes of engaging in India-Pakistan self-aggrandizement and mutual-insult competitions. ``
Oh c`mon...I am an educated ``specimen`` and I frequently take part in mutual insult competitions. But c`mon, it`s just time pass. I believe that most people in real life would remarkably be more sophisticated. God knows, I get on well with Pakistanis in real life, though, we still occaisionally trade insults. Its a guy thing. You shouldn`t take it too seriously.
``average person in the subcontinent has more sense than the ``educated specimen`` who visit chowk for purposes of engaging in India-Pakistan self-aggrandizement and mutual-insult competitions. ``
Oh c`mon...I am an educated ``specimen`` and I frequently take part in mutual insult competitions. But c`mon, it`s just time pass. I believe that most people in real life would remarkably be more sophisticated. God knows, I get on well with Pakistanis in real life, though, we still occaisionally trade insults. Its a guy thing. You shouldn`t take it too seriously.
#74 Posted by stuka on March 5, 2003 9:43:14 am
Adnan:
``But, not a single Indian is willing to admit it...``
...to Pakistanis. No Indian thinks that everything in Kashmir is hunky dory. But admitting it to a Pakistani is tough because there is a territorial claim attached to it.
If Pakistan were to say, we give up claim on the land, just remove the army and enforce human rights, the situation would improve. Ofcourse, things would not be great, but that`s coz things are not great anywhere in India.
Beisdes, why do you waste time reading Jay`s posts in any case?
``But, not a single Indian is willing to admit it...``
...to Pakistanis. No Indian thinks that everything in Kashmir is hunky dory. But admitting it to a Pakistani is tough because there is a territorial claim attached to it.
If Pakistan were to say, we give up claim on the land, just remove the army and enforce human rights, the situation would improve. Ofcourse, things would not be great, but that`s coz things are not great anywhere in India.
Beisdes, why do you waste time reading Jay`s posts in any case?
#75 Posted by Urstruly on March 5, 2003 12:48:25 pm
Sattar
I see that you are glad to see the basic human rights of Pakistanis being violated by their own government. I don’t think that your comments will help Quadiani cause, in any way or form. On the other hand it will make the work of moderates, who want to change the system from with in the system, more difficult because such comments are sure to make the attitude of hardliners stricter.
But if you are making such comments to offer your services as Northern Alliance on Pakistanis, then I am sorry to say that the job is already taken. Pakistan Army has offered their services first and they got the job. I am not surprised by your comments, because you are the descendent of one who offered his services to another colonial aggressor, in another time, the British Crown in these words:
``After the death of my father and brother I led a retired life. But nevertheless I have been employing my pen in the service of British Government. In all the works that I have written I have preached loyality to and sympathy with the British Government I have made effective speeches against Jehad. I wrote books in Arabic and Persian costing me thousands of rupees (Italics added) . All those books were disseminated in Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Egypt, Baghdad and Afghanistan. I am sure they will bear fruit some day...... wrote many works out of sincere loyality to the British Government otherwise I had little to gain by sending them in Arabia, Syria and Islamic world.”
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Tohafa-e-Qaisarya (A Present to the Queen ) Qadian, 1897 p. 27
#76 Posted by adnan_rafiq on March 5, 2003 12:48:25 pm
pmishra: I agree, Musharraf is a clown. If peace is to happen, it is going to be despite our armed forces or jehadis. There are a growing number of people in Pakistan who are equally tired of Kashmir (the fact that we celebrate Kashmir Day has more to do with taking the day off, trust me) and the role our military plays. We also understand that issue of Kashmir is kept alive to justify the massive military budget and the subsequent bungalows and expensive cars of our generals and brigadiers.
However, if peace is to take root in the sub-continent both of us have to meet in the middle somewhere. But, the Indians idea of peace is `my way or the highway`. I have seen three attitudes so far:
1 - Indians are too powerful and, as such, do not need peace with an insignificant Pakistan. Since, India now owns the laathi, it is completely ethical to own the bhains too. Compromise means that Pakistan should forget about Kashmir because its already occupied by India. No need for discussions or negotiations. This, I believe, is the view of Jay and arjun. Obviously, this line of reasoning leaves very little room for compromise from the Pakistani side.
2 - Indians are too benign and must act tough with Pakistan. All the internal troubles of India are a result of ISI intrigues. Vajpayee, after Lahore Yatra and the Kargil debacle, is now a firm believer of this approach. Obviously, this makes the hawks of BJP extremely happy.
3 - The `cross-border terrorism` theme is repeated ad nauseum and the goal is to get Pakistan declared a terrorist nation. If this is to happen, the consequences won`t be much different than Iraq, i.e. the military would grow stronger and its only the common Pakistani who would suffer. I understand that an average Indian is not happy with the Pak Army, but this course of action puts me, a common Pakistani, in the direct path of harm. If Indians understand this and still insist on following the `cross-border terrorism` route than obviously it becomes a matter of my survival, and there is no way in hell I would like to be friendly with them.
From the Indian perspective, I wish that they can cultivate an understanding that the real problem is Pak military (and its extension, i.e. the terrorist aka jehadis) not the common Pakistani. Up until the eighties I believe that was the case. However, with the success of BJP and a rise in fundamentalism in India, the country has lost the moral edge. Fundamentalism is a slippery rope. You`ll end up in the bowels of bigotry, hatred and violence before you know it. But, it seems that Indians are all too willing to slide down this rope because of their hatred for Muslims and Pakistan.
However, if peace is to take root in the sub-continent both of us have to meet in the middle somewhere. But, the Indians idea of peace is `my way or the highway`. I have seen three attitudes so far:
1 - Indians are too powerful and, as such, do not need peace with an insignificant Pakistan. Since, India now owns the laathi, it is completely ethical to own the bhains too. Compromise means that Pakistan should forget about Kashmir because its already occupied by India. No need for discussions or negotiations. This, I believe, is the view of Jay and arjun. Obviously, this line of reasoning leaves very little room for compromise from the Pakistani side.
2 - Indians are too benign and must act tough with Pakistan. All the internal troubles of India are a result of ISI intrigues. Vajpayee, after Lahore Yatra and the Kargil debacle, is now a firm believer of this approach. Obviously, this makes the hawks of BJP extremely happy.
3 - The `cross-border terrorism` theme is repeated ad nauseum and the goal is to get Pakistan declared a terrorist nation. If this is to happen, the consequences won`t be much different than Iraq, i.e. the military would grow stronger and its only the common Pakistani who would suffer. I understand that an average Indian is not happy with the Pak Army, but this course of action puts me, a common Pakistani, in the direct path of harm. If Indians understand this and still insist on following the `cross-border terrorism` route than obviously it becomes a matter of my survival, and there is no way in hell I would like to be friendly with them.
From the Indian perspective, I wish that they can cultivate an understanding that the real problem is Pak military (and its extension, i.e. the terrorist aka jehadis) not the common Pakistani. Up until the eighties I believe that was the case. However, with the success of BJP and a rise in fundamentalism in India, the country has lost the moral edge. Fundamentalism is a slippery rope. You`ll end up in the bowels of bigotry, hatred and violence before you know it. But, it seems that Indians are all too willing to slide down this rope because of their hatred for Muslims and Pakistan.
#77 Posted by Ahmadzai on March 5, 2003 12:48:25 pm
Urstruly at # 69:
``THe question is not whether 1 mohajir was killed by state or 10,000, the question is of extra-judicial murders. State has no authority .... In this case state has overstepped its authority under local constitution, law, and recognized international laws. ``
That was a particular event in which Genaral Nasirullah Khan Babar committed the excesses under the leadership of Benazir Bhutto. All the opposition parties, including the Pakhtoon Nationalist ANP, and the sucussive Governments have protested those excesses.
``A report was published by the GOP in 2001, which admitted that since 1986, about 35,000+ people were killed in Karachi because of ethnic violence. The loss of property and productivity was in billions of rupees. The independent sources put the casualty figure into 50Ks.``
Most of them were killed by the two fighting factions of MQM. More Mohajirs were killed than any other ethnic group by these two factions. You only have to ask, for example, the widow of Mr. Azeem Tariq, who saw the escaping murderers and identified them as belonging to Mr. Hussain`s faction of MQM.
``As for your question of ethnic cleansing goes, I am a witness to the murder and a survivor...., who were fleeing in their own country to save their lives. ``
My friend, when I graduated from my school in the USA, I took my first job in Karachi with an evironmental organization. I am also a witness to the fracas. If some body tells me it was state apparatus, I would laugh at him/her. An interesting story: I was perhaps the only Pakistani Dulla who had to marry my sweet heart in almost a bald head due to 13 stitches on my head received by some MQM activists who were bent upon occupying a public park.
While organizing a function for the then girl heart-throb musical band the Arid Zone, I was almost killed by MQM Goondas, because they had demanded from me 300 free entrances in a hall that only housed 374 (FTC Building`s Auditorium). Since we had to raise funds, my wife and I, during the first days of our marriage, had to run to Alazam or Alkaram Plaza near Liaqatabad # 10 (I don`t recall the correct name now) to beg mercy. I still recall KK toting 16 to 20 year old boys very courteously guiding us to the meeting place of all the MQM parliamentarians, where a youngishg MQM provincial member from Gulshan e Iqbal (Saleem Shahzad, if I remember correctly) helped us out by accepting on behalf of MQM 20 passes. In the ensuing chaos he too disappeared as MQM activists turned against him.
``The murder of Mohajirs by state apparatus in early `90s qualifies as genocide if you look up the dictionary. ``
After the failure of the so called MQM rebellion, several of the young member leaders of the MQM changed their identities due to the threat from MQM diehards and are living happily ever since then. Some other fled to Australia and South Africa.
``The military establishment of Paksitan started this ethnic violence in `80s to break the political clout of PPP in rural sindh and that of JI in urban sindh......Mohajir group and sided with other to establish its government in sindh after lota elections. ``
I would refer you to Adnan`s response to me in this regard. Your solution seems to be to criticize Pakistani Government and its followers instead of focusing our attention on our enemies. Its like the MMA leaders who once said if Pakistan continued to side with the USA against Talibans then ``humm iss mulk ka jarain hilla day ga``. Wah bhai wah, yarra toom dushman ko berbaad karnay kay bajay mulk ka khana kharab kerta hay ;)
Where are are the constitutional rights of the people?
Constututional rights of the people can neither be won by getting UK citizenship and living comfortably in London, or in Dubai, or by avoiding struggle and settling for exile in Saudi Arabia, nor it can be won by raising non-issues like LFO, co-education, ban on liqor, etc as is being done by MMA.
You have to take the route taken by people like Nelson Mendela.
``THe question is not whether 1 mohajir was killed by state or 10,000, the question is of extra-judicial murders. State has no authority .... In this case state has overstepped its authority under local constitution, law, and recognized international laws. ``
That was a particular event in which Genaral Nasirullah Khan Babar committed the excesses under the leadership of Benazir Bhutto. All the opposition parties, including the Pakhtoon Nationalist ANP, and the sucussive Governments have protested those excesses.
``A report was published by the GOP in 2001, which admitted that since 1986, about 35,000+ people were killed in Karachi because of ethnic violence. The loss of property and productivity was in billions of rupees. The independent sources put the casualty figure into 50Ks.``
Most of them were killed by the two fighting factions of MQM. More Mohajirs were killed than any other ethnic group by these two factions. You only have to ask, for example, the widow of Mr. Azeem Tariq, who saw the escaping murderers and identified them as belonging to Mr. Hussain`s faction of MQM.
``As for your question of ethnic cleansing goes, I am a witness to the murder and a survivor...., who were fleeing in their own country to save their lives. ``
My friend, when I graduated from my school in the USA, I took my first job in Karachi with an evironmental organization. I am also a witness to the fracas. If some body tells me it was state apparatus, I would laugh at him/her. An interesting story: I was perhaps the only Pakistani Dulla who had to marry my sweet heart in almost a bald head due to 13 stitches on my head received by some MQM activists who were bent upon occupying a public park.
While organizing a function for the then girl heart-throb musical band the Arid Zone, I was almost killed by MQM Goondas, because they had demanded from me 300 free entrances in a hall that only housed 374 (FTC Building`s Auditorium). Since we had to raise funds, my wife and I, during the first days of our marriage, had to run to Alazam or Alkaram Plaza near Liaqatabad # 10 (I don`t recall the correct name now) to beg mercy. I still recall KK toting 16 to 20 year old boys very courteously guiding us to the meeting place of all the MQM parliamentarians, where a youngishg MQM provincial member from Gulshan e Iqbal (Saleem Shahzad, if I remember correctly) helped us out by accepting on behalf of MQM 20 passes. In the ensuing chaos he too disappeared as MQM activists turned against him.
``The murder of Mohajirs by state apparatus in early `90s qualifies as genocide if you look up the dictionary. ``
After the failure of the so called MQM rebellion, several of the young member leaders of the MQM changed their identities due to the threat from MQM diehards and are living happily ever since then. Some other fled to Australia and South Africa.
``The military establishment of Paksitan started this ethnic violence in `80s to break the political clout of PPP in rural sindh and that of JI in urban sindh......Mohajir group and sided with other to establish its government in sindh after lota elections. ``
I would refer you to Adnan`s response to me in this regard. Your solution seems to be to criticize Pakistani Government and its followers instead of focusing our attention on our enemies. Its like the MMA leaders who once said if Pakistan continued to side with the USA against Talibans then ``humm iss mulk ka jarain hilla day ga``. Wah bhai wah, yarra toom dushman ko berbaad karnay kay bajay mulk ka khana kharab kerta hay ;)
Where are are the constitutional rights of the people?
Constututional rights of the people can neither be won by getting UK citizenship and living comfortably in London, or in Dubai, or by avoiding struggle and settling for exile in Saudi Arabia, nor it can be won by raising non-issues like LFO, co-education, ban on liqor, etc as is being done by MMA.
You have to take the route taken by people like Nelson Mendela.
#78 Posted by arjun_m on March 5, 2003 2:00:48 pm
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#79 Posted by arjun_m on March 5, 2003 2:00:48 pm
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#80 Posted by tahmed32 on March 5, 2003 2:00:48 pm
stuka #72 I wasnt thinking of people like you when I referred to to the ``educated specimen``. I was thinking of people young master arjun and jay.
Chowk is indeed time pass and no big deal. Some people pass time by discussing issues with a view to developing a better understanding, some joke around a bit, others share experiences, others share their knowledge. That is all fine.
The ``specimen`` I was referring to in my post to hxn are the ones, like Arjun and Jay whose posts reflect deep rooted hatreds that ooze through their posts, and who obviously suffer from inferiority complexes that they are constantly trying to compensate for by crowing on chowk.
Chowk is indeed time pass and no big deal. Some people pass time by discussing issues with a view to developing a better understanding, some joke around a bit, others share experiences, others share their knowledge. That is all fine.
The ``specimen`` I was referring to in my post to hxn are the ones, like Arjun and Jay whose posts reflect deep rooted hatreds that ooze through their posts, and who obviously suffer from inferiority complexes that they are constantly trying to compensate for by crowing on chowk.
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