Kashmir: Time for a Radical Approach?

It is the Sindhi population, not the Pakistan Army or Punjabi elite that is opposing repatriation of Biharis. Prominent Sindhi politicians such as G.M. Syed (late), Dr.Nabi Bux Baluch and Mumtaz Bhutto oppose repatriation because they believe this will turn Sindhis into a minority in their own province.

Among the political parties, MMA and MQM favor repatriation. PPP and SNF oppose it. PML and otheres are simply neutral.

So much for conspiracy theories hatched by Indian chowkies!

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#172 doug

Excellent point. Let us start with Pakistan first. Separation of Sindh and Baluchistan should be your first goals. Let me know if you need my help.

re: nakhok

[Is HisExcellency trying to say that if ordinary Pakistanis were so averse to Pakistan Army`s dominance in politics, they would certainly have revolted in Pakistan?!! ]

and..

[When the peoples` representatives gain power in Pakistan, its government will inevitably have an agenda where the interests of the ordinary citizens comes before feathering the nests of military officers. And when that happens, Pakistan`s government will indeed ``perform a unilateral about turn on Kashmir`` to conform to the wishes of the ordinary citizens. ]

Your entire argument is based on the following assumptions:

(a) Pakistan Army is extremely unpopular in Pakistan.
(b) People of Pakistan do not consider Kashmir as an issue.

I challenge both these assumptions. Simply by reading Altaf Gauhar, Cowasjee, Ayaz Amir, M.B.Naqvi or a few websites, you cannot arrive at a true picture.

These professional writers express an informed opinion, not a fact. They have a right to express opinions and we lesser mortals have right to disagree.

Example: In the pre-election days, all these experts were predicting a clear cut victory of PPP in Sindh and Punjab, and a hung parliament in NWFP and Baluchistan. Election results proved them wrong. The PML won the most seats followed by the MMA. None of the experts could predict the rise of MMA in NWFP and Baluchistan.

Newspaper articles and op-ed pieces are not necessarily a true barometer of public opinion. I would suggest that you use the 2002 Election results instead.

In the 2002 elections, the pro-Musharraf parties collectively won 40% seats. The anti-Musharraf parties (PPP, MMA) won 42% seats. Clearly these results indicate that the Army is neither overwhelmingly popular, nor overwhelmingly unpopular. The electorate is divided almost evenly between pro-Musharraf and anti-Musharraf camps. This proves your assumption (a) wrong.

As for the second assumption, I am completely at a loss. Can you explain how you concluded that people of Pakistan don`t care about Kashmir and that it is the Army that is fueling this conflict? After all every argument needs a basis, right?

For stuka type mentality

There can never be peace when might usurps the rights of the right. There can never be peace when men malign one another and distort the truth to win over the desired goals. There can never be peace when men in authority enslave and imprison those who oppose or disagree with them. There can never be peace when nations take undue advantage of being strong against weak. In fact all these actions pose serious threat to humanity and peace. If peace has to prevail then the victors, the powerful and the mighty must learn to be magnanimous, merciful and benign.

Jamshed:

All the arguments u put have been repeated on Chowk ad nauseum on Chowk and elsewhere. All the arguments will not get you anywhere.

Know this, we are as bloody minded as you if not more in fighting to keep Kashmir.

If you want a solution, the Indian government, backed with the vast majority of the Indian people, will agree to the LOC as border solution, backed by autonomy if your side gives up its territorial claims and genuinely cuts down on terrorism.

If not, your side and our side can keep fighting. It has only been 14 years since the militancy started. It can carry on for a 140 years more.

We are prepared for the long haul. Are you?

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For last five decades, the people of the state of Jammu & Kashmir are demanding their inalienable right of self-determination by all peaceful means. But in return. The Government of India let loosed a reign of terror, and showered bullets on innocent people, whereby thousands upon thousands of people have been killed, injured and tortured

The atrocities, (torture, confinement, arson, loot. custodial deaths, inhuman & degrading treatment, killings) committed by Indian forces has not quelled the general uprising in favor of “AZADI” (Independence from Indian occupation).

The Government of India has responded to this situation in three ways:

Firstly India isolated the occupied State of Jammu & Kashmir from the rest of the world by denying access to international human rights monitoring groups

This isolation has been used to perpetrate systematic barbaric atrocities against the people of Kashmir in the form of collective punishment, mass killing, mass confinement, inhuman and degrading treatment, torture, enforced starvation, molestation, arson, loot and custodial killings.

Thirdly the Government of India has simultaneously resorted to distort the facts and malign the freedom movement of Kashmir. The Indian controlled media has helped to camouflage the brutal actions with lies, fabrications, excuses. blames, abuses, myths and tactful propaganda.

Ironically. Government of India calls its savage terrifying occupation forces as ‘Security” forces giving a false impression as if the forces are meant for security, whereas the huge army and paramilitary forces are used to coerce people into submission and silence. In the same manner, the acts of arbitrary arrest and detention are dubbed as “preventive detention”. Likewise, community raids and army operations accompanied with acute forms of harassment and inhuman treatment. Molestation, and degradation are described as “house to house searches”. Similarly systematic killings of civilians by way of summary execution and custodial deaths due to torture are portrayed as “encounter”, in which innocent persons including political opponents are taken into custody, tortured and then murdered. The death generally occurs as a result of brutality, whereupon the Government issues press releases, attributing the loss due to “encounter”. In such cases, the police claims as having fired in “self-defence”. Where the military and paramilitary forces open fire against unarmed masses, the killings are advertised as deaths in “cross flung”.

In the same manner, the freedom movement of Jammu and Kashmir is being labeled as “secessionist” or ~‘separatist” movement and the freedom fighters as “terrorists”, whereas the Jammu and Kashmir state is not a pail of India but an internationally disputed territory for which United Nations has passed numerous resolutions to the effect that the “the final disposition of the State of Jammu & Kashmir will be made in accordance with the will of the people expressed in the democratic method of a free and impartial plebescite conducted under the auspices of the United Nations. Accor4ingly the people of Jammu and Kashmir are within their tights to demand their promised tight of self-determination. Thus, this is the way the human rights violation is formally sanctioned and mercilessly perpetrated

The bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945 out rightly killed more than 1.00,000 people. They inflicted severe burns, blast injuries and radiation effects on another 125000. Still more deaths and injuries occurred in later years - continuing in till I980s- were attributed to radiation exposure from the two bombs

India also made a test of its nuclear Bomb in I 974. But India is the first country in the world which dubbed its nuclear Explosion Test a~ “Peaceful” Nuclear Explosion Test. It refuses to sign any international agreement to ban nuclear proleferation. The spring 1998 election in India have thrown up the winners of seats who demand manufacture of Nuclear arsenal. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs were small by comparison with the destructive power of the “peaceful” bomb exploded by India, the so-called secular second largest democracy

Instead of trying to settle the Kashmir issue with prudence and justice, the government of India ms misleading the world opinion on one hand and using brute force of all dimensions on the other. Some details of the atrocities and brutalization of human rights perpetrated by Indian forces have been duly recognized, registered and publicized by the International Human Rights Organizations like the Asia Watch, the Amnesty International. The ICHR. The violations have been so massive that even Human Rights organizations based in India have themselves equally identified and condemned these atrocities.

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#160 jamshed


The world does need murderous hate mongers like you either. I hope you or your family soon get ``liberated`` and move on to a another world.

Shame on those who support ethnic cleansing in support of their goals ! Shame on those who support murder of civilians in J&K ! Let us isolate these people and openly condemn them. Let us expose these creatures for what they really are: murderers and supporters of atrocity.

Here is jamshed`s criminal brother. We can see the sub-human level of these killers who dare to use words like ``freedom``.

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The founder and former head of the terrorist group Lashkar-e-Taiba has dismissed Pakistani efforts for talks with India over Jammu and Kashmir, saying ``killing Hindus`` was the best approach.

``The solution is not to kneel down before India and beg for dialogue... India has never been sincere in resolving issues through talks,`` Hafiz Saeed said on late Tuesday.

``Our policy of `Kashmir through jihad (holy war)` is absolutely right... India has shown us this path for jihad.

``We would like to give India a tit-for-tat response and reciprocate in the same way by killing the Hindus, just like it is killing the Muslims in Kashmir.``

Saeed, released from seven months` arrest in December, was speaking after addressing a conference of terrorists.

He was jailed in last May under a crackdown on terrorists, five months after President Pervez Musharraf banned his group.

A Pakistani court ordered Saeed`s release in December last year on the grounds of insufficient evidence.

Saeed said Lashkar followers were still fighting in Kashmir. ``The Lashkar is still active in Kashmir,`` he said.

In Pakistan, Lashkar has reincarnated under a new name: Jamaat-ud Dawa.

Lashkar has claimed responsibility for some 200 attacks on Indian forces in Jammu and Kashmir between 1999 and 2002.

jamshed, looks like your family members have brought more freedom to people ! I am sure you are very proud. The rest of us mourn the death of innocents.

Militants gun down couple, infant daughter in J-K

Srinagar, April 3: In a gruesome incident, militants shot dead a couple and their three-year-old daughter in Kupwara district in North Kashmir, official sources said in Srinagar on Thursday.

Militants intruded into the house of one Mohammad Yousuf Sheikh and fired indiscriminately on the inmates at Dollipora village in Vilgam late on Wednesday night, the sources said, adding Sheikh, his wife Rafeeqa and daughter Asma Yousuf were killed on the spot.

The prevalent situation in Indian Occupied Kashmir, as depicted by India is:-



The dispute over Kashmir is a territorial dispute

The movement is a terrorist movement

The movement is a fundamentalist movement

The movement is a secessionist movement

The movement is all sponsored and supported by Pakistan

With the passage of time, the UN resolutions on Kashmir have become ineffective

India would disintegrate if Kashmir issue was resolved in accordance with UN resolutions

Kashmiris have acceded to India and are participating in State Legislative Assembly Elections

The Indian misleading phrases, slogans and claims have been refuted by Barrister Sultan Mahmood Chaudhry. the Prime Minister of the State of Azad Jammu & Kashmir so that people may come to the right conclusion about the Kashmir issue.

Q-1: The dispute over Kashmir is a territorial dispute.

Ans: Kashmir is not a territorial dispute. It involves the inalienable right of the Kashmiri people to self-­determination. This fact is recognized by the UN Security Council resolutions

The principles embodied in the UN Security Council resolutions 47 (1948) of 21 April 1948,51(1948) of 3 June, 1948, 80(1950) of 14 March 1950 and 91(1951) of 30 March 1951, and the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan resolutions of 13 August 1948 and 5 January 1949 expressly state that the final disposition of the State of Jammu and Kashmir will be made in accordance with the will of the people expressed through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite conducted under the auspices of the United Nations

On October 31, 1947, just four days after forcible occupation, the Prime Minister of India sent a telegram to the Prime Minister of Pakistan

Our assurance that we shall withdraw our troops from Kashmir as soon as peace and order is restored. And leave the decision regarding the future of the State to the people of the State, is not merely a promise to your Government, but also to the people of the Kashmir and to the world.

(Jawahar Lal Nehru, Telegram No. 25, October 31, 1947).

In a broadcast, Indian Prime Minister said

We have declared that the fate of Kashmir is ultimately to be decided by the people. That pledge we have given not only to the people of the Kashmir but to the world. We will not and cannot back out of it.

(Jawahar Lal Nehru, Statement, New Delhi: All India Radio, November 3, 1947).

Before the UN Security Council, speaking through its representative, India repeated its aforementioned stand saying

The question of the future status of Kashmir vis-à-vis her neighbors and the world at large and a further question, namely, whether she would withdraw from her accession to India and either accede to Pakistan or remain Independent, with a right to claim admission as a Member of United Nations- all this we have recognized to be a matter for unfettered decision by the people of Kashmir, after normal life is restored to them

(Gopalaswami Ayyanger, “United Nations Security Council Official Records”, 227th Meeting, January 15, 1948).

Again on February 23, 1948, Indian representative declared before the Security Council

As the Security Council is aware, the Government of India is fully committed to the view that after peace is restored and all people belonging to the State have returned there, a free plebiscite should be taken and the people should decide whether they wish to remain with India, go over to Pakistan or to remain Independent if they choose to do so

(Gopalaswami Ayvanger, “UN Security Official Records”, 23 9th Meeting).

Q-2: The movement is terrorist movement.

The Kashmiri struggle for self-determination is an indigenous movement and is a manifestation of the Kashmiris desire to break free from the yoke of Indian rule. India is trying its best to project to the international community that the Kashmiri freedom fighters are terrorists. But in reality it is India itself which is indulging in the worst possible form of state terrorism through the imposition of’ draconian laws and the unbridled use of brute force

Why does India not allow India not allow independent verification. No red crescent, No red cross, No visitors - like independent News agencies etc

Some details of atrocities and systematic human rights violations have been duly registered, recognized and publicized by various Human Rights Monitoring groups including Asia Watch, Amnesty International, ICHR, etc

According to Human Rights watch

Violations of human rights and humanitarian law by regular security forces - the army, the Border Security Force (BSF) and the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) - have also continued. These violations include deliberate killing of detainees in the custody of the security forces in Kashmir and reprisal killings of civilians.... Indian Security personnel in Indian Held Kashmir (IHK) have also been responsible for rape as a counter-insurgency tactics. In mid-1992, the Indian government launched a catch and kill” policy, to execute captured Kashmiri freedom fighters. That policy together with the January 1993 massacre of at least forty civilians by BSF troops in Sopore, focused international attention on human rights violations in Kashmir.

(Human Rights Watch/Asia “India‘s Secret army in Kashmir, New Patterns of Abuse Emerge in the Conflict,” Washington: May, l996).

Q­­- 3: It is a fundamentalist movement.

Ans: The word ~‘fundamentalism” is being misinterpreted by west as label of sorts that means wrong doing. The advanced learner’s Oxford dictionary says that the word “fundamentalism means (I) (in Christian thought) the belief that every thing in the Bible is true and should form the basis of religious thought or practice. (2) The strict following of the basic teaching of any religion

The indigenous movement in Kashmir, where the Kashmiris are asking for settlement of their fate as per commitment of India and Pakistan according to UN resolutions: how can that movement be termed as fundamentalist movement? Is strict following of the basic teachings of any religion a crime? The west at large somehow is prejudiced against the word Islam”, which means “Peace”

In Kashmir, the Kashmiri people~ irrespective of their religion are demanding the right of self-determination. This inherent right of the people of Kashmir is recognized by the international community since it is based on the relevant UN Security Council resolutions

Q- 4: It is a secessionist movement.

Ans. Kashmir was never a part of India according to the cannons of international law. It is not recognized as such by the international community. Therefore, the question is not that the Kashmiris want to secede from India. The issue at stake is the exercise of the right of self-determination by the Kashmiris under United Nations auspices in accordance with the UN Security Council resolutions.

Q- 5: The movement is all sponsored and supported by Pakistan

Ans. Such ideas are being spread by India in its campaign to mislead international public opinion and to divert attention from the indigenous Kashmir freedom struggle. Pakistan continues to support the Kashmiris politically, morally and diplomatically. Indian claims of material assistance being given by Pakistan to the Kashmiris are baseless. If India truly believed in this case, it should accept proposals to station UN or neutral observers on both sides of the Line of Control in Kashmir to verify their claim. If Indians had allowed independent eyewitnesses to watch the struggle the factual position would have favored them, if Pakistan was supporting it.

Q- 6: With passage of time, the UN resolutions on Kashmir have become ineffective

Ans.: UN resolutions on Kashmir continue to be as valid today as at the time on which they were passed. The need to implement these resolutions has become even greater today as is evidenced by the realities on the ground. For the last eight years the Kashmiris have been struggling for their light to self-determination and have borne the burnt of India’s atrocities. Claims to sovereignty over an illegally occupied territory are null and void under international law

That the statute of limitations is not applicable to the Kashmir dispute is borne out by the fact that the issue remains on the agenda of the UN Security Council and the United Nations Military Observers Group in India and Pakistan continue to monitor the situation

Q- 7: India would disintegrate if Kashmir issue is resolved in accordance with UN resolution.

Ans.: Kashmir was never a part of India. Therefore, the .question is without reference to history or law, illegal occupation of territory by means of force does not make that territory part of any state.

Q- 8: Kashmiris have acceded to India and are participating in State Legislative Assembly Elections

Ans.: The State Assembly elections held by India since 1947 have been farcical and illegal. These elections were boycotted by the Kashmiri people and their true representatives

Resolution 122 (195) Adopted by the Security Council at its 765 the Meeting on 24, January, 1957 states

Reaffirms the affirmation in its resolution 9I (195I) and declares that the convening of a Constituent Assembly as recommended by the General Council of the “All Jammu and Kashmir National Conference” and any action that Assembly may have taken or might attempt to take to determine the future shape and affiliation of the entire state or any part thereof, or action by the parties concerned in support of any such action by the Assembly, would not constitute a disposition of the state in accordance with the above principle

MUSHIES RADICAL APPROACH,

There are reports that 200,000 jihadists are lined up in pok ready to attack kashmir. At last all of the taliban version of pakistanis have found a path to heaven and 72 houris.

A country on its path to the deserts of 1400 yers ago appear to be taking a break at 1947, the tribal invasion of kashmir. Good part is that it is not really a delay, it is only a short cut to heaven.

It is hearteneing to see the ruling party sharing the plat forms with jaish mohemmed and laskers in their call for iraqi jihad.

What kashmir needs is the classical solution, consistant with the creation of pakistan as a pure land for islam, straight from the book.

Hurriyat urges Hindus not to flee Valley
Agence France-Presse
Srinagar, April 1

Jammu and Kashmir`s separatist alliance on Tuesday urged Hindus not to leave the the Kashmir valley following the massacre of 24 Hindus.
``We have been disturbed by the reports that the members of minority community have decided to leave the valley after the Nadimarg massacre,`` the All-Party Hurriyat Conference (APHC) said in a statement.

Some 24 Hindus -- 11 men, 11 women and two children -- were lined up and sprayed with bullets by unidentified gunmen in the village of Nadimarg on the evening of March 23.

Kashmiri Pandits have demanded they be moved to the Hindu-dominated Jammu region of J&K or other parts of India.

More than 200,000 Hindus have left fled the valley since 1989. Some 10,000 have stayed behind, but many now want to leave.

``The Hurriyat, on behalf of the Muslims of Kashmir, makes a passionate appeal to our Kashmiri Pandit brothers to reconsider their decision (to leave),`` a statement said.

``The Hurriyat want the lives and properties of all residents of Kashmir to be secure. But that is only possible when an impartial enquiry is held into the gruesome massacres of the members of the minority communities in Kashmir, to expose the ruthless killers once for all.``

Many Kashmiri Hindu leaders have asked the separatists to guarantee their safety.

``The Hurriyat understands that providing security is the jurisdiction of the government,`` the statement said.

///One can see the true nature of huriat in the above report. Since the killing is that of kahirs, like the tahmeds, cannot say that it is not jihad. Pakistan, when it was created had 10 percent non muslims, like pakistan huriat also wants some to be left for ethnic cleansing. Now that all of kafirs of pakistan are finished, the ahmadias and shias have taken the kafirian role. I do feel that kashmir should be given to pakistan with as many hindus as possible so that the pak jihadists will not have to travle far. The humanists like tahmed would support it in the name of religious freedom.

#150 by nomani on April 2, 2003 5:02pm PT

[I don`t know why they still think that they`ll be able to convince Paks with all this nonsense.]

Who’s trying to convince you? Like a worn out gramophone record you’re the ones whining endlessly about how Indians have forcibly occupied Kashmir and denied Kashmiris the right to self-determination.

[As a result, it`s them who are at the recieving end of the kicks Kashmiris and the laugh of the international community. Indians will keep getting it but Kashmir. Pakistan is loosing nothing.]

Sure..is that why the US Ambassador to Pakistan Nancy Powell publicly advised you Pakis to stop being the platform for terrorism in the heart of the Paki capital Islamabad? Is that why President Bush and Secretary Colin Powell keep calling you every other day and warn you about rising infiltration levels? Is that why just a couple of days back British and US officials issued a joint statement in which they asked you Pakis to rein in the Jihadis? I could go on but I’m sure this will take some figuring out, so I’ll wait for your response.

There`s no doubt that it`s time for a soultion to the Kashmir issue; but no solution is possible when the Indian Government doesn`t want to discuss this issue. It`s willing to waste its millitary might in Kashmir instead of thinking wisely. People of Pakistan can`t change its attitude by posting arguments on the forums. Only Indians can do that. Unfortunately, they don`t know the issue more than what Indian govt wants them to know. If they use their brains then they can find out the facts from the decisions of the international community as well as they can find it from the attitude of their own leadership which don`t want to resolve this issue through peaceful arguments on the table.

stuka
so?