Kashmir: Time for a Radical Approach?

re: #407

Ranjha is allowed up to four wives. And his present wife and children really love the old flame. They have already started calling her mommy. Ranjha got a new job in ``phoren`` with which he can support both the new wife and old one.

re. #403 by sadna
Nopes!
You have one try left. :)

#402 by HisExcellency on April 8, 2003 4:33pm PT

[Now that you are awake, arjun_m, let me also tell you that because of this problem, the subcontinent is at the verge of nuclear disaster. You can either choose to stay awake or go to sleep again.]

Hahahaha…funny how Pakis resort to the “nuclear disaster” gambit when they realize all other arguments have failed. If HE is so concerned about a nuclear disaster in the subcontinent, how about advising his leadership on the perils of a nuclear disaster and persuading the Paki leadership to rollback its nuclear program? For he can rest assured the Indians wouldn’t use nukes unless in retaliation as enunciated in its no-first-strike policy, but can he say the same about Pakistan, especially after Mush-whore-uff blatantly brandished the nuclear threat last year when India called its troops on to the border? And later, as an afterthought, or perhaps after a telephone call from his mastah Bush, he quickly fell in line, sheepishly saying that he had been misquoted and that no sane man would talk about using nukes. If HE could so cleverly sidestep this blatant threat while trying to express his noble concern for the wellbeing of the subcontinent, it seems he’s either indulging in intellectual dishonesty, or it is he who has been sleeping all this while.

re. Ralph #400:
``There is a lesson here for Indians who get too warm and fuzzy about Pakistan and Pakistanis. Going forward, India must frame policies keeping the thinking of average Pakistani in mind. It is not just a section of the Pakistani body politic that has rotted.``

Funny, Ralph, but I was thinking on the same lines... with nationalities reversed, of course.

Ralph, just in case you didn`t think i was serious in my last post, here`s a pointer:
from #398 by arjun_m:

``I dont give a pakis rear about the wishes of the Kashmiri people...Indian Kashmir is a part of India and the wishes of the 13 million Kashmiris are worth 1.3% of the will of the billion Indians. ``

This, IMHO is only slightly less odious than people suggesting that the Indian army go across the border and kill not just the terrorist (shades of Bushy?) but also their supporters (by whom I imagine the writer was referring to those offering moral support and perhaps those merely perceived to be)

Excellent stuff!

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Its obvious PM is spinning the Indians here at will....You all are only reacting to his various ``premises``. PM is focused on the sophistry of English language and Sadna et al on emotionalism.......

I`m kinda disappointed that nobody here could refute HisExcellency`s with Data and references which he used cleverly.

AlephNull #405, #406

I think you have put it well. J&K is a side-show in the big indian picture. The real challenge for india is elsewhere, and, inshallah, we have begun to address this challenge.

Politics and relationships between countries is based on the art of the possible. Was there a high moral ground for partition? The murder of a million people so that bickering Congress and Muslim League leaders could have their version of india and Pakistan? I don`t think so.

Yet these events have transpired and we must accept them as facts. A similar situation obtains about J&K. As I have stated on this list repeatedly, india must live up to its democratic ideals and provide transparency. Beyond that respond creatively with force to terror and violence. Mufti sahib is showing the way and we should support him.

States in India have quite distinct identity. A conservative Tamilian can live in Tamil Nadu in a completely tamil-centric world. Similarly for Bengalis in Calcutta wherein I grew up. Not surprisingly Kashmiri is only taught in Jammu and Kashmir University and not in Pakistan, writers using Kashmiri are found only in India. Their cultural and religous rights have always been safeguarded. If the J&K assembly feels it needs a flag or their CM should be called by some urdu name (??Sadar-e-Riyasat??), what is the big deal?

And yes, the pakistanis are welcome to go around the world describing this as oppression, genocide etc. etc. Mostly they will be asked: why don`t you have democracy? Why do you support jihad? Why don`t you have a proper educational system? Why are you so different from these hard-working and achieving indians? Why does your country lack positive goals?

Let them spend all their time on these pursuits. We cannot choose our neighbors and clearly we have a deranged neighbor next door.

#397 by HisExcellency on April 8, 2003 1:33pm PT

[Pakistan never aske India to ``give away Kashmir``. Pakistan only asked for a plebiscite or self-determination for Kashmiris. By asking the question above, you have admitted that whenever Kashmiris exercise their right of self-determination, India will lose Kashmir.]

Oh really? If Pakis are so sincere about self-determination for Kashmiris, will you please answer why a few years ago when local elections were being held in ``Azad`` Kashmir authorities refused to allow JKLF leaders, prominent among them Amanullah Khan, to participate because they refused to sign a declaration in the nomination form that explicitly stated that they overwhelmingly supported Kashmir`s integration into Pakistan? Even today, any Kashmiri talking of an independent Kashmir falls out of favor with the establishment in Islamabad, with the result that the premier pro-independence movement the JKLF has paled into insignificance.

Right from the 1947-48 invasion, when it tried to hoodwink the world by claiming that it was the tribals of NWFP who had attacked J&K to liberate Kashmiris, when it was as clear as daylight that they were Army regulars, to 1999 in Kargil, when it tried to pass of its own Army personnel from the Northern Light Infantry as Mujahideen, we have been witness to Pakistan`s double dealings.

As regards the claim that India has consistently violated UN resolutions on holding a plebiscite, please go back to school. The UN resolutions clearly specified that Pakistan must first create the conditions in which a fair plebiscite could be held by withdrawing the ``tribal`` invaders. Far from it, Pakistan has instead resettled hordes of Pathans and Punjabis in PoK and completely altered the demographic character of that part of Kashmir so much so that Kashmiris are now a minority in ``Azad`` Kashmir. So much for Pakistan`s sincere intentions!!!! That is why the whole world no more regards plebiscite as a practical solution. Instead, they believe the best solution would be to accept the LoC as the de jure border.

While the Kashmir problem hasn`t prevented India from emerging as a potential world power, it has transformed Pakistan from the fastest growing economy in Asia under Ayub in the 60s to a basket case in the 90s.

AlephNull #405
Ranjha is actually a married man, who lets his children starve and appropriates his wife`s earnings to provide himself with comforts while he woos his old flame.

HisExcellency #404

{{But then Heer did wake up one day in 1989 to proclaim her love for Ranjha. Ever since Kaido has been beating her up. And tell the rest of the village, not to heed her sobs.

…

Basically Kaido is a moron, studying hard to become a rascal some day.}

I have little knowledge of and even less interest in rustic Punjabi folklore; I probably missed some of the intended connotations. I nevertheless gather that you’ve made some pathetically self-serving associations between the characters in that silly story and intrastate relations in the Indian subcontinent. You have fallen into the trap of being carried away by your own inappropriate metaphors.

I note that your parable leaves out any mention of 1971, where the self-proclaimed Ranjha received a tremendous battering and associated public humiliation that left him permanently psychically scarred and embittered, obsessed with dreams of revenge but with no constructive plans for the future.

I would also mention that women are notorious for reserving the right to change their minds. If the wannabe Ranjha/Romeo is down-and-out, neck-deep in debt and living on the dole, basically trying to hire himself out as a neighbourhood tough to whoever will pay him a pittance, instead of earning an honest livelihood, while his own home falls into disrepair, disorder and decay, he may not remain desirable for very long, even assuming he was at one time. He is unlikely ever to be a success at any worthwhile endeavour, let alone in love. Nor is he likely to prevail in a conflict with a more powerful and law-abiding neighbour. If in addition he harbours delusions of grandeur he becomes a public laughing-stock.

To spell it out, what you fail to take into account is that Pakistan as a country is going nowhere while it allows this obsession India and with capturing Kashmir to monopolise public discourse. Indians on the other hand regard the problems in Jammu and Kashmir as something to be resolved on their own terms, in good time. It might be nice if they would go away tomorrow, but if they don’t, we can wait this one out, for decades if need be. In the meanwhile the Indian economy is still growing at a healthy rate, and Indians are working on constructive things that will make them richer, stronger, with more friends, altogether more formidable in the years to come. Having to deal with Pakistani terrorism in Kashmir has not weakened us in any significant degree. The large disproportion in strength and resources between India and Pakistan is such that what is basically a sideshow and minor drag for us is crippling you. This ‘imbalance’ is growing with no end in sight.

Your chances of forcing a resolution to Kashmir that is acceptable to your rapacious elite will be even poorer in the future than they are now. Nobody of any consequence has the desire let alone the capability to force India into any deal that does not suit us. Indians know all this, which is precisely why they’re in absolutely no hurry for talks. You are stuck fighting a war of attrition with a country five to ten times your size with no face-saving exit and only calamity looming ahead. Good luck to you. You’ll need it.

HisExcellency #404

I note that you did not reply to my pointed questions in #399. Let me repeat:

{{Pakistan is prepared to talk about Kashmir at any time, any place and at any level.}}

I am continually amazed by this ceaseless repetition of the ``talk about Kashmir at any time, any place and at any level`` refrain by the Pakistani establishment and its lackeys. What do you think this is buying you? Do you suppose that the so-called ``international community`` has been watching these developments with bated breath and regards these frantic pleas for dialogue as evidence of Pakistani good faith? Do you regard it as good PR for Pakistan`s Kashmir cause? Do you believe that you are embarrassing India? Do you imagine that India is under the slightest pressure to respond or even take more than perfunctory notice of these farcical calls for dialogue? If Indians for their own reasons don`t think their purpose is served by talks, how exactly do you plan to impose your will on them?

re: AlephNull

I concede that the Kashmiri Heer did not love the Pakistani Ranjha in 1965. The Pakistani Ranjha ended up fighting with the Indian Kaido without the Heer`s blessings. For the same reason, Ranjha and Kaido made peace at Tashkent and confined the Heer-Ranjha romance to rusting file covers.

But then Heer did wake up one day in 1989 to proclaim her love for Ranjha. Ever since Kaido has been beating her up. And tell the rest of the village, not to heed her sobs.

Unfortunately, the Ranjha and Kaido possess a nuclear danda that can not only vaporize each other, but also half the village and the crops. Fearing such a flare up, the village panchayat (elders) are advising to mediate between Ranjha and Kaido but Kaido takes that as an offense. Ranjha offers to negotiate with Kaido but Kaido refuses that as well. In the meantime, Ranjha is slipping in weapons and money to Heer through cracks in the window.. so that she may fight for her freedom herself. Kaido calls this terrorism.

Basically Kaido is a moron, studying hard to become a rascal some day.

PM #394
Perhaps what you meant was that Kofi Annan and the UN organisation donot endorse theaverage abdul jihadi`s murder lust, Kofi Annan and the UN organisation endorse only Hafiz Saeed and his call to kill Hindus.

re: arjun_m

[Indian Kashmir is a part of India and the wishes of the 13 million Kashmiris are worth 1.3% of the will of the billion Indians. ]
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This just confirms my suspicions. You have indeed been hibernating in some cave in the Deccan for the last 60 years! Welcome to the world, arjun_m. The British have left, the Raj is no more. And 2/3rds of Kashmir has been usurped by India without asking the Kashmiris whether they want to be a part of India or not. Pakistan has ceded some virtually uninhabited territory to China. However, not one Kashmiri voice protested this action. To the contrary, thousands of Kashmiris have been protesting against Indian invasion of their land since 1947, and especially since 1989.

Now that you are awake, arjun_m, let me also tell you that because of this problem, the subcontinent is at the verge of nuclear disaster. You can either choose to stay awake or go to sleep again.


re: arjun_m

[Any person, Kashmiri or otherwise, is free to go to Pakistan(or China) is he so chooses]
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That`s like a land-grabber snatching somebody`s house and telling him that he is free to go to the neighbour`s house... Hey arjun_m, the people from your cave just called. They want their idiot back!

re: arjun_m

I am waiting eagerly for Indian chowkies to respond to the plebiscite channel. It seems they have all disappeared. As Oscar Wilde said, some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go.