Kashmir: Time for a Radical Approach?
Temporal March 31, 2003
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#367 Posted by sadna on April 7, 2003 4:28:26 pm
PM #whichever
India needs to answer to Kashmiris and other Indians, period.
Even if you keep repeating the same thing a 100 million more times than the half a dozen times you have repeated this already, in case you missed this harsh reality, read my lips:
India has ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST in convincing assorted murderers and religious bigots in Pakistan about its democratic or its human rights record. These murderers and religious bigots have been getting and will continue to get Indian answers in bullets.
pmishra2 #359
``The LOC is to be made an international border. ``
This solution was fine during Lahore 1999. I happen to think that now, it will be a mistake. The reason being, that the other party is dishonest enough to pretend to accept this as `final` solution and then carry on with the violence.
Do you really think Pakistan will shut down the 190-acre campus of LeT and its other institutions, or any other jihadi organisation and their widespread funding, recruiting and training activities? Do you really think its possible (or the Pakistani establishment even wants) to tell all these jihadi activists include our cho-chweet Hafiz idiot - go home and forget today the urgent need to kill Hindus for God which I invoked and convinced you about yesterday. That the Pakistani govt told me so today God says not to kill Hindus?
For this to ever happen(shutters on Muridke and everywhere else), there has to be a public movement in Pakistan against armed jihad which the Pakistani establishment can use to enforce end of jihad. Do you see any such public movement by Pakistanis for end of armed jihad for their own good? No. Will there be such a movement for the sake of peace with the Indians? Door ki baat. Does Pakistani establishment even want to? Any evidence it does? No, the MMA is a long time ally while liberals are enemies.
In summary, unless India is militarily prepared to enforce LOC and severely punish future violations, LOC=IB solution will be foolishly ascribing good faith to Pakistan with inadequate basis and giving them something for nothing. Which leads to the question, if India is militarily able to enforce LOC and severely punish future violations, why even talk to Pakistan about J&Kashmir?
We have to accept, there can be no peace with dishonest people, there can only be containment.
India needs to answer to Kashmiris and other Indians, period.
Even if you keep repeating the same thing a 100 million more times than the half a dozen times you have repeated this already, in case you missed this harsh reality, read my lips:
India has ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST in convincing assorted murderers and religious bigots in Pakistan about its democratic or its human rights record. These murderers and religious bigots have been getting and will continue to get Indian answers in bullets.
pmishra2 #359
``The LOC is to be made an international border. ``
This solution was fine during Lahore 1999. I happen to think that now, it will be a mistake. The reason being, that the other party is dishonest enough to pretend to accept this as `final` solution and then carry on with the violence.
Do you really think Pakistan will shut down the 190-acre campus of LeT and its other institutions, or any other jihadi organisation and their widespread funding, recruiting and training activities? Do you really think its possible (or the Pakistani establishment even wants) to tell all these jihadi activists include our cho-chweet Hafiz idiot - go home and forget today the urgent need to kill Hindus for God which I invoked and convinced you about yesterday. That the Pakistani govt told me so today God says not to kill Hindus?
For this to ever happen(shutters on Muridke and everywhere else), there has to be a public movement in Pakistan against armed jihad which the Pakistani establishment can use to enforce end of jihad. Do you see any such public movement by Pakistanis for end of armed jihad for their own good? No. Will there be such a movement for the sake of peace with the Indians? Door ki baat. Does Pakistani establishment even want to? Any evidence it does? No, the MMA is a long time ally while liberals are enemies.
In summary, unless India is militarily prepared to enforce LOC and severely punish future violations, LOC=IB solution will be foolishly ascribing good faith to Pakistan with inadequate basis and giving them something for nothing. Which leads to the question, if India is militarily able to enforce LOC and severely punish future violations, why even talk to Pakistan about J&Kashmir?
We have to accept, there can be no peace with dishonest people, there can only be containment.
#366 Posted by HisExcellency on April 7, 2003 4:28:26 pm
re: pmishra2
I refuse to enter into a battle of wits with you - its against my moral code to attack an unarmed person.
I refuse to enter into a battle of wits with you - its against my moral code to attack an unarmed person.
#365 Posted by pmishra2 on April 7, 2003 3:02:38 pm
#364 HisGreatFlatulence
[quote]
In my opinion, elections are only an eyewash or a short-term solution. All elected Chief Ministers soon find themselves being manipulated like puppets from New Delhi. And this irks the Kashmiri people.
[end-quote]
Good luck with your fantasy world. The absurdity of your statements is rising with each interaction.
There is no country in the world in which democratic politics does not involve wheeling and dealing and compromise. There is no country in the world in which federal and state relations do not involve give and take.
You are basically saying that you don`t believe in that. You dont care about democratic elections (!!!), its no big deal (!!). I guess its natural for a person who lives in a military dictatorshop. I guess I now understand why Pakistan has spent 20 years under military dictators.
Well then, good luck, deal with the indian army and create jihad. Kill more civilians in J&K so that they can be saved. Explain to the world that democracy is too flawed for you, you want something else, something s-o-o special that no one else has it, but is only known to Pakistanis or maybe even only to you...
[quote]
In my opinion, elections are only an eyewash or a short-term solution. All elected Chief Ministers soon find themselves being manipulated like puppets from New Delhi. And this irks the Kashmiri people.
[end-quote]
Good luck with your fantasy world. The absurdity of your statements is rising with each interaction.
There is no country in the world in which democratic politics does not involve wheeling and dealing and compromise. There is no country in the world in which federal and state relations do not involve give and take.
You are basically saying that you don`t believe in that. You dont care about democratic elections (!!!), its no big deal (!!). I guess its natural for a person who lives in a military dictatorshop. I guess I now understand why Pakistan has spent 20 years under military dictators.
Well then, good luck, deal with the indian army and create jihad. Kill more civilians in J&K so that they can be saved. Explain to the world that democracy is too flawed for you, you want something else, something s-o-o special that no one else has it, but is only known to Pakistanis or maybe even only to you...
#364 Posted by HisExcellency on April 7, 2003 2:13:14 pm
re pmishra2
Once again you are demonstrating extremely poor reading abilities while responding to some of my posts.
First, your denials of Indian Army involvement in human rights abuses is only partially correct. During the first 5 years of insurgency, most of the atrocities were committed by Indian Army. This is evidenced by Amnesty International interviews with affected families. Now, being a true Indian, you may declare that Amnesty International is bogus and that these reports are lies. But rest of the world sincerely believes that Indian Army was part and parcel of the atrocities in Kashmir. The role of ITPF, SOG and BSF has become greater only during the latter half of this 13-year insurgency.
Nevertheless, this does not absolve the Indian government of any wrong doing. Whether it is a BSF officer who molests a Kashmiri woman or an ITPF jawan who tortures a Kashmiri to death.. both symbolise the brutality of Indian occupation. Administrative details such as ranks and organizations may matter to Indian chowkies, but not to rest of the world.
I appreciate your honesty in acknowledging that atrocities are being committed by the Indian security forces. At least we agree on some thing.
The disagreement between Indian chowkies and Kashmiri/Pakistani chowkies is over the solution to this problem. In my opinion, elections are only an eyewash or a short-term solution. All elected Chief Ministers soon find themselves being manipulated like puppets from New Delhi. And this irks the Kashmiri people.
Even if we pretend for a minute that Pakistan is not sincere with Kashmiri people, we must also accept that India`s central government too is not sincere with the Kashmiri people. I am not claiming that the average Indian is communal, anti-Muslim, anti-Kashmiri. The problem is with the Indian government... that is trying to justify its occupation of another nation by appealing to the ``nationalism`` of Indian people.
Isn`t this anomalous? A nation of 1 billion people is scared that its secularism is under threat from just 6 million Kashmiris. The Kashmiris never chose to be a part of India.. how can their land become a bone of contention for Indian nationalism? Is Indian nationalism external or internal?
Once again you are demonstrating extremely poor reading abilities while responding to some of my posts.
First, your denials of Indian Army involvement in human rights abuses is only partially correct. During the first 5 years of insurgency, most of the atrocities were committed by Indian Army. This is evidenced by Amnesty International interviews with affected families. Now, being a true Indian, you may declare that Amnesty International is bogus and that these reports are lies. But rest of the world sincerely believes that Indian Army was part and parcel of the atrocities in Kashmir. The role of ITPF, SOG and BSF has become greater only during the latter half of this 13-year insurgency.
Nevertheless, this does not absolve the Indian government of any wrong doing. Whether it is a BSF officer who molests a Kashmiri woman or an ITPF jawan who tortures a Kashmiri to death.. both symbolise the brutality of Indian occupation. Administrative details such as ranks and organizations may matter to Indian chowkies, but not to rest of the world.
I appreciate your honesty in acknowledging that atrocities are being committed by the Indian security forces. At least we agree on some thing.
The disagreement between Indian chowkies and Kashmiri/Pakistani chowkies is over the solution to this problem. In my opinion, elections are only an eyewash or a short-term solution. All elected Chief Ministers soon find themselves being manipulated like puppets from New Delhi. And this irks the Kashmiri people.
Even if we pretend for a minute that Pakistan is not sincere with Kashmiri people, we must also accept that India`s central government too is not sincere with the Kashmiri people. I am not claiming that the average Indian is communal, anti-Muslim, anti-Kashmiri. The problem is with the Indian government... that is trying to justify its occupation of another nation by appealing to the ``nationalism`` of Indian people.
Isn`t this anomalous? A nation of 1 billion people is scared that its secularism is under threat from just 6 million Kashmiris. The Kashmiris never chose to be a part of India.. how can their land become a bone of contention for Indian nationalism? Is Indian nationalism external or internal?
#363 Posted by PM on April 7, 2003 1:25:45 pm
re pmishra2 #358
Now, pmishra, if you`d only stuck to facts and figures in the firt place (and stopped making outrightly idotic and misleading statements such as ``Hafiz Saeed [is being madeout to be] a Gandhi-like figure`` you`d have saved us all from a terrible amount on trouble of having to shoot down your silly knee jerk contentions earlier.
As mentioned in all earnestness earlier, I would fully understand (and, may I add, share) your consternation, for anyone going about committing acts of wanton cowardice killing innocents for political gain.
However (and I say this I know at the risk of jarring sensibiliites again), my beef was with anyone reacting to the postition expresssed in the article as being evil itself.
I am glad that an Indian had FINALLY -- some 340 posts into this -- interact, finally admitted to artrocities commited by their state machinery (ok, so you say not the army) against dissenting Muslims. While the murder of pundits in order to derail the transparency process is to be denounced in the strongest of terms, surely you cannot expect ordinary jihadis to be any impassioned by the fact that it is the the BSF, ITPF and SOG that carried out the execees and custodial killings (you didn`t mention rape and pillage, though.)
To my quote:
``Let me make it real simple for you: Merely holding tranparent elections was not the issue with any of the guerilla parties involved in the violence in Kashmir``
you reply:
``Wow ! I wonder why 600 people, mostly civilians were killed in the lead upto the elections? Why was a price placed on the head of every leader who contested the elections?``
Perhaps we understand the meaning of the word `merely` quite differently. The elections would seem to give legitimacy to a government that not all (not even all extremists) sought. And why would they want it after the excesses and killings by the agencies you mentioned (adn then some). To saner minds, the elections (and Vajpayees outlines) might indeed have been the best path. However, the ghosts of your past execesses seem to now come back to haunt you, admittedly aided by some devilish meddling by ISI.
Now, pmishra, if you`d only stuck to facts and figures in the firt place (and stopped making outrightly idotic and misleading statements such as ``Hafiz Saeed [is being madeout to be] a Gandhi-like figure`` you`d have saved us all from a terrible amount on trouble of having to shoot down your silly knee jerk contentions earlier.
As mentioned in all earnestness earlier, I would fully understand (and, may I add, share) your consternation, for anyone going about committing acts of wanton cowardice killing innocents for political gain.
However (and I say this I know at the risk of jarring sensibiliites again), my beef was with anyone reacting to the postition expresssed in the article as being evil itself.
I am glad that an Indian had FINALLY -- some 340 posts into this -- interact, finally admitted to artrocities commited by their state machinery (ok, so you say not the army) against dissenting Muslims. While the murder of pundits in order to derail the transparency process is to be denounced in the strongest of terms, surely you cannot expect ordinary jihadis to be any impassioned by the fact that it is the the BSF, ITPF and SOG that carried out the execees and custodial killings (you didn`t mention rape and pillage, though.)
To my quote:
``Let me make it real simple for you: Merely holding tranparent elections was not the issue with any of the guerilla parties involved in the violence in Kashmir``
you reply:
``Wow ! I wonder why 600 people, mostly civilians were killed in the lead upto the elections? Why was a price placed on the head of every leader who contested the elections?``
Perhaps we understand the meaning of the word `merely` quite differently. The elections would seem to give legitimacy to a government that not all (not even all extremists) sought. And why would they want it after the excesses and killings by the agencies you mentioned (adn then some). To saner minds, the elections (and Vajpayees outlines) might indeed have been the best path. However, the ghosts of your past execesses seem to now come back to haunt you, admittedly aided by some devilish meddling by ISI.
#362 Posted by PM on April 7, 2003 1:25:45 pm
re. AnotherMoronWithPoorComprehension #351:
``According to the UN, the entire Kashmir territory is disputed. If the LeT has a moral right to enter Indian Kashmir to kill our people, then we too have the right to enter the ``Disputed by UN Pakistan Occupied Kashmir`` to kill as many Muslims as we want. ``
Actually, I agree with you. If we heard of state machinery supressing dissent by Hindus in POK through the harshest of means (think rape & murder of Hindus) then well, I could well excuse the saffron brigade making it their life`s purpose to raise hell there in the manner in which the jehadis. Not that I`d condone the killing of innocents, but you know how these things have a horrible way of getting completely out of hand.
And, dumbo, aren`t you a journalist/one time journalist? Speaks volume of Indian journalistic standards when you have come to understand me as, effectively saying that it is ok for Pakistanis to enter IOK and kill as many Indians as they want (read your quote above). Or are your skills at analogy just so pitifully poor!
``The UN may consider the Kashmir territory on both sides of the LOC as disputed. But it certainly does not recognize the rights of supra nationalist extra constitutional groups like the Lashkar e Taiba to mete out what they recognize as justice. For you to give the Jihadis a ``Moral perspective`` is laughable. ``
For you to understand me as having given them the `moral highground` is eyond laughable. It`s disturbing, especailly if you`ve trained as a journalist. Listen, dodo, stating that ``Indians have lost the moral highground`` is not to grant the same to the jehadis. Not very strong on logical skills either, are we?
``But hey, I`ll just wait around for divine justice..the next time you happen to pray at the wrong church at the wrong time. :)``
Could do it easier: I could, like, don Muslim garb and move to Gujarat. :)
C`mon, surely you can do better than throw red herrings about. I mean, with all I`ve collected from Sadna in just the past two days, I could start a frikkin school!
``According to the UN, the entire Kashmir territory is disputed. If the LeT has a moral right to enter Indian Kashmir to kill our people, then we too have the right to enter the ``Disputed by UN Pakistan Occupied Kashmir`` to kill as many Muslims as we want. ``
Actually, I agree with you. If we heard of state machinery supressing dissent by Hindus in POK through the harshest of means (think rape & murder of Hindus) then well, I could well excuse the saffron brigade making it their life`s purpose to raise hell there in the manner in which the jehadis. Not that I`d condone the killing of innocents, but you know how these things have a horrible way of getting completely out of hand.
And, dumbo, aren`t you a journalist/one time journalist? Speaks volume of Indian journalistic standards when you have come to understand me as, effectively saying that it is ok for Pakistanis to enter IOK and kill as many Indians as they want (read your quote above). Or are your skills at analogy just so pitifully poor!
``The UN may consider the Kashmir territory on both sides of the LOC as disputed. But it certainly does not recognize the rights of supra nationalist extra constitutional groups like the Lashkar e Taiba to mete out what they recognize as justice. For you to give the Jihadis a ``Moral perspective`` is laughable. ``
For you to understand me as having given them the `moral highground` is eyond laughable. It`s disturbing, especailly if you`ve trained as a journalist. Listen, dodo, stating that ``Indians have lost the moral highground`` is not to grant the same to the jehadis. Not very strong on logical skills either, are we?
``But hey, I`ll just wait around for divine justice..the next time you happen to pray at the wrong church at the wrong time. :)``
Could do it easier: I could, like, don Muslim garb and move to Gujarat. :)
C`mon, surely you can do better than throw red herrings about. I mean, with all I`ve collected from Sadna in just the past two days, I could start a frikkin school!
#361 Posted by PM on April 7, 2003 1:25:45 pm
``Why not? After all Patrick Masih is quite comfortable with the idea of the Jehadis passing a judgement on Pakistani Christians as well. Multiple times. ``
Moron, we pass judgement, internally or otherwise, on matter all through the day, everyday. The issue is whether the judged situation merits our interference or not. Patrick Masih would quite understand if Muslim or Hindu/Sikh/Jain jehadis took up arms against Christian oppressors of Muslims/Hindus/Sikh/Jains.
Go ahead. Turn and twist those words again. Don`t do the nuance-stripping routine (like conveniently leaving out the word ``oppressors``) though. That`s been done to death already by pmishra and yourself.
Moron, we pass judgement, internally or otherwise, on matter all through the day, everyday. The issue is whether the judged situation merits our interference or not. Patrick Masih would quite understand if Muslim or Hindu/Sikh/Jain jehadis took up arms against Christian oppressors of Muslims/Hindus/Sikh/Jains.
Go ahead. Turn and twist those words again. Don`t do the nuance-stripping routine (like conveniently leaving out the word ``oppressors``) though. That`s been done to death already by pmishra and yourself.
#360 Posted by PM on April 7, 2003 1:25:45 pm
re. #358:
``Amusing to hear the dishonesty and crude attempts to side-track the discussion on J&K. One respondent started by praising Hafid Saeez as a Gandhi-like figure.``
What is REALLY amusing is that you`ve actaully got the gall to ``utter`` those two sentences in one breath!
``Amusing to hear the dishonesty and crude attempts to side-track the discussion on J&K. One respondent started by praising Hafid Saeez as a Gandhi-like figure.``
What is REALLY amusing is that you`ve actaully got the gall to ``utter`` those two sentences in one breath!
#359 Posted by HisExcellency on April 7, 2003 12:04:55 pm
It doesn`t make sense why Indian chowkies are elevate Hafiz Saeed as the ``Gandhi`` of Kashmir movement. Gandhi was never the leader of Indian freedom struggle. He was a Hindu leader who didn`t enjoy the support of Muslims and Scheduled Castes.
Similarly Kashmir cause doesn`t have one leader but several. Some are violent, some nonviolent. Hafiz Saeed, Salahuddin, Maulana Azhar, Abdul Majid Dar, etc represent just one side of the Kashmir struggle. The other side comprises Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Ali Shah Jeelani, Abdul Ghani Lone, Yasin Malik, Shabbir Shah, etc.
Since this is a collective struggle, individual opinions cannot be used to describe the Kashmir cause. This struggle is represented by a host of bodies, not just one person, as pmishra2 is desperately begging us to believe.
Similarly Kashmir cause doesn`t have one leader but several. Some are violent, some nonviolent. Hafiz Saeed, Salahuddin, Maulana Azhar, Abdul Majid Dar, etc represent just one side of the Kashmir struggle. The other side comprises Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, Ali Shah Jeelani, Abdul Ghani Lone, Yasin Malik, Shabbir Shah, etc.
Since this is a collective struggle, individual opinions cannot be used to describe the Kashmir cause. This struggle is represented by a host of bodies, not just one person, as pmishra2 is desperately begging us to believe.
#358 Posted by pmishra2 on April 7, 2003 12:04:55 pm
Amusing to hear the dishonesty and crude attempts to side-track the discussion on J&K. One respondent started by praising Hafid Saeez as a Gandhi-like figure. On being presented with compelling evidence that Hafiz was a warlord, a hate-monger, a hindu-phobe and involved in Jihad to ``liberate`` all indian muslims this individual quickly turned to the topic of indian army excesses in J&K.
As a honest person, and indeed as a person who as spend time in the valley, I am certainly aware of excesses and custodial killings associated with the goverment forces. In keeping the poor state of information by HisFlatulence and his side-kick PM who incorrectly identify these as linked to the army, these do not originate from the indian army but usually from the BSF, ITPF and SOG. These are various internal security groups that have a poor to moderate record on transparency. One of the strong things that CM Mufti Sayeed is trying to do is to achieve greater transparency and control in this space. He has disbanded the SOG. For this, he was rewarded by the mass murder of 24 pandits. Needless to say, murderers like Hafiz Saeed and his cohort are trying their best to de-rail this effort.
Another piece of crude-disinformation is an attempt to deligitimize the fair and free elections that threw out the Abdullahs and brought in the Mufti`s goverment. We are now informed that:
[quote]
Let me make it real simple for you: Merely holding tranparent elections was not the issue with any of the guerilla parties involved in the violence in Kashmir
[end-quote]
Wow ! I wonder why 600 people, mostly civilians were killed in the lead upto the elections? Why was a price placed on the head of every leader who contested the elections? What was the law minister killed in Sodepore? Isn`t it amazing that if no one cared about the elections, so much violence and terror was used in an attempt to derail them?
Please explain to us retarded indians why the state assembly was attacked (30 civilians dead --- thank you Mahatma Hafiz Saeed) and why the election was also attacked. The elections helped deligitimize the paid agents of Pakistan by demonstrating that the indian goverment was serious about political change in J&K. Hence the violence and killings to derail it. It also helped the international community understand that while India has not always fulfilled the aspirations of people in J&K, it has the institutional structures that could be used to fulfill them.
I would recommend that people who fund mass murders should avoid phrases like ``moral high ground``. Polictics involves compromise, negotiation and working together to resolve problems. Until pakistanis understand this there will be no solution and the innocent people of J&K will suffer from jihadis and too many trigger-happy paramilitaries.
The indian goverment has been completely clear on the plan for J&K (all credit to Vajpayee, who went to Lahore in `98 and made it clear that a stable and secure Pakistan was in Indias interest). The LOC is to be made an international border. Some part of J&K (probably Kashmir valley) will be given an enhanced charter of autonomy along the lines stated in the instrument of accession of the Maharaja. Kashmiris on both sides of the border will have rights to travel and visit family freely in Pakistan and India. All of this has been on offer since Vajpayee`s trip but is clearly not enough for murderer Hafiz Saeed and his hypocritical supporters (oops, I meant Mahatma). None of this can take place till stability and some peace returns to J&K.
As a honest person, and indeed as a person who as spend time in the valley, I am certainly aware of excesses and custodial killings associated with the goverment forces. In keeping the poor state of information by HisFlatulence and his side-kick PM who incorrectly identify these as linked to the army, these do not originate from the indian army but usually from the BSF, ITPF and SOG. These are various internal security groups that have a poor to moderate record on transparency. One of the strong things that CM Mufti Sayeed is trying to do is to achieve greater transparency and control in this space. He has disbanded the SOG. For this, he was rewarded by the mass murder of 24 pandits. Needless to say, murderers like Hafiz Saeed and his cohort are trying their best to de-rail this effort.
Another piece of crude-disinformation is an attempt to deligitimize the fair and free elections that threw out the Abdullahs and brought in the Mufti`s goverment. We are now informed that:
[quote]
Let me make it real simple for you: Merely holding tranparent elections was not the issue with any of the guerilla parties involved in the violence in Kashmir
[end-quote]
Wow ! I wonder why 600 people, mostly civilians were killed in the lead upto the elections? Why was a price placed on the head of every leader who contested the elections? What was the law minister killed in Sodepore? Isn`t it amazing that if no one cared about the elections, so much violence and terror was used in an attempt to derail them?
Please explain to us retarded indians why the state assembly was attacked (30 civilians dead --- thank you Mahatma Hafiz Saeed) and why the election was also attacked. The elections helped deligitimize the paid agents of Pakistan by demonstrating that the indian goverment was serious about political change in J&K. Hence the violence and killings to derail it. It also helped the international community understand that while India has not always fulfilled the aspirations of people in J&K, it has the institutional structures that could be used to fulfill them.
I would recommend that people who fund mass murders should avoid phrases like ``moral high ground``. Polictics involves compromise, negotiation and working together to resolve problems. Until pakistanis understand this there will be no solution and the innocent people of J&K will suffer from jihadis and too many trigger-happy paramilitaries.
The indian goverment has been completely clear on the plan for J&K (all credit to Vajpayee, who went to Lahore in `98 and made it clear that a stable and secure Pakistan was in Indias interest). The LOC is to be made an international border. Some part of J&K (probably Kashmir valley) will be given an enhanced charter of autonomy along the lines stated in the instrument of accession of the Maharaja. Kashmiris on both sides of the border will have rights to travel and visit family freely in Pakistan and India. All of this has been on offer since Vajpayee`s trip but is clearly not enough for murderer Hafiz Saeed and his hypocritical supporters (oops, I meant Mahatma). None of this can take place till stability and some peace returns to J&K.
#357 Posted by PM on April 7, 2003 7:19:41 am
re. #348: harish_hyd
``Only someone as deluded as you would stupidly separate a common man from his government. ``
Ok.. so lemme see if I get you: The ever growing public protests against the war, in the streets of LA, NYC, and London are acutally demonstrations of the common man`s support of and identification with their governments` foreign policy.
And I`m the one in serious need of psychiartic help? hmmm... Interesting...
Tell you what mate... once you`re done with the customary, tired, see-how-Pakis-are-so-denigrated-by-the-US spiel, and decide you actually want to engage in debate, as opposed to escape it with your own oil-smoke tactics, we`ll get back to well, debating the issue at hand. Till then, keep performing your puja to Uncle Sam dutifully. Oh, and keep seeing me as upholder/defender of Pak foreign policy too. It would be quite un-Indian of you to do otherwise anyway. Like you said, it`s stupid to think the common man can think differently from his government? Right?
(...As Rachel Corrie turns in her grave....)
``Only someone as deluded as you would stupidly separate a common man from his government. ``
Ok.. so lemme see if I get you: The ever growing public protests against the war, in the streets of LA, NYC, and London are acutally demonstrations of the common man`s support of and identification with their governments` foreign policy.
And I`m the one in serious need of psychiartic help? hmmm... Interesting...
Tell you what mate... once you`re done with the customary, tired, see-how-Pakis-are-so-denigrated-by-the-US spiel, and decide you actually want to engage in debate, as opposed to escape it with your own oil-smoke tactics, we`ll get back to well, debating the issue at hand. Till then, keep performing your puja to Uncle Sam dutifully. Oh, and keep seeing me as upholder/defender of Pak foreign policy too. It would be quite un-Indian of you to do otherwise anyway. Like you said, it`s stupid to think the common man can think differently from his government? Right?
(...As Rachel Corrie turns in her grave....)
#356 Posted by PM on April 7, 2003 7:19:01 am
further...
``
[Some friendly advice: Don`t tune in to Sesame Street today. They`re doing the letter `J`. Wouldn`t want you getting convulsions and/or elileptic-like fits.]
Ah, there you show your true colors!! Are you trying to scare me into submission?... Talk sense... ``
Wow! Didn`t know you scared that easily! Is it BIgBird? Or is talking nonsense and accusing others of eactly the faults you are committing just a new Indian pastime? Please be more specific.
``
[Some friendly advice: Don`t tune in to Sesame Street today. They`re doing the letter `J`. Wouldn`t want you getting convulsions and/or elileptic-like fits.]
Ah, there you show your true colors!! Are you trying to scare me into submission?... Talk sense... ``
Wow! Didn`t know you scared that easily! Is it BIgBird? Or is talking nonsense and accusing others of eactly the faults you are committing just a new Indian pastime? Please be more specific.
#355 Posted by PM on April 7, 2003 7:19:01 am
correction:
In 347, ``...US stipulation,`` should have been ``UN stipulation``
In 347, ``...US stipulation,`` should have been ``UN stipulation``
#354 Posted by PM on April 7, 2003 7:19:01 am
Ralph,
I`m seriously starting to think there is something terribly wrong in your school system that leads to this general malaise in reading comprehension. For, despite my various posts in which I repeatedly claim that I do not necessarily condone eye-for-eye ethics you still write that:
``I still disagree with your condoning of killings for `revenge`, as you say, but we can agree to disagree about that.``
I also ``think that is an extremely dangerous doctrine`` but one that can be expected to be practised when there is no recourse to law.
And interestingly, despite my repeatedly pointing out that -- whatever the ethics of such a practice-- it is far less heinous than killing for, say oil, or to supress dissent (ring any bells?). But not a single statement from any Indian here has admitted to this mitigating factor. (I guess there is the fear that the house could start to crumble.) On the contrary, the only reaction I`ve met with are suggestion to psychotherapy, leading me to assume that the blind spot in the average Indian consciousness is much hugher than anticipated.
``If we begin to accept people`s moral prerogative to kill followers of other religions in `revenge` for perceived oppression of coreligionists then incidents like Gujrats seem completely normal.``
Hold it right there! First, no one has accepted any such moral prerogative. Saying that cirucumstances mitigate the evil is not the same as saying condoning it. Surely, even as an Indian, you can see more than just black and white on the issue?
Second, the indiscriminate GENOCIDE of Muslims in Gujarat, fully orchestrated by the government and local adminstration, is hardly the same as the tit-for-tat killings that Hafiz Saeed seemed clearly to be TALKING about in the article.
Please note the distinction. It should be clear enough.
``To make the point that there is state government in Gujrat and not in Kashmir (there is) seems to be just sophistry.``
Not really! (--and in case you haven`t noticed, you`ve just shot yourself in the foot, my friend.) Or are you now contending that the state government of Kashmir (and later the federal, when it took over) was not engaged in human rights artorocities in Kashmir, which, de facto, obviated any recourse to law? But even in Gujarat, are you sugesting that it would be morally unacceptable for Muslims to employ the offence-as-best-form-of-defense-principle? --and mere sophistry to suggest so??
Perhaps you have a more just, equitable solution to the these admittedly complex issues. Would love to hear.
Before you end up muddying the waters any more, please remember the qualification I made when `defending` the posted interview of HS, for a lot of the morality of the issue is predicated on just that.
I`m seriously starting to think there is something terribly wrong in your school system that leads to this general malaise in reading comprehension. For, despite my various posts in which I repeatedly claim that I do not necessarily condone eye-for-eye ethics you still write that:
``I still disagree with your condoning of killings for `revenge`, as you say, but we can agree to disagree about that.``
I also ``think that is an extremely dangerous doctrine`` but one that can be expected to be practised when there is no recourse to law.
And interestingly, despite my repeatedly pointing out that -- whatever the ethics of such a practice-- it is far less heinous than killing for, say oil, or to supress dissent (ring any bells?). But not a single statement from any Indian here has admitted to this mitigating factor. (I guess there is the fear that the house could start to crumble.) On the contrary, the only reaction I`ve met with are suggestion to psychotherapy, leading me to assume that the blind spot in the average Indian consciousness is much hugher than anticipated.
``If we begin to accept people`s moral prerogative to kill followers of other religions in `revenge` for perceived oppression of coreligionists then incidents like Gujrats seem completely normal.``
Hold it right there! First, no one has accepted any such moral prerogative. Saying that cirucumstances mitigate the evil is not the same as saying condoning it. Surely, even as an Indian, you can see more than just black and white on the issue?
Second, the indiscriminate GENOCIDE of Muslims in Gujarat, fully orchestrated by the government and local adminstration, is hardly the same as the tit-for-tat killings that Hafiz Saeed seemed clearly to be TALKING about in the article.
Please note the distinction. It should be clear enough.
``To make the point that there is state government in Gujrat and not in Kashmir (there is) seems to be just sophistry.``
Not really! (--and in case you haven`t noticed, you`ve just shot yourself in the foot, my friend.) Or are you now contending that the state government of Kashmir (and later the federal, when it took over) was not engaged in human rights artorocities in Kashmir, which, de facto, obviated any recourse to law? But even in Gujarat, are you sugesting that it would be morally unacceptable for Muslims to employ the offence-as-best-form-of-defense-principle? --and mere sophistry to suggest so??
Perhaps you have a more just, equitable solution to the these admittedly complex issues. Would love to hear.
Before you end up muddying the waters any more, please remember the qualification I made when `defending` the posted interview of HS, for a lot of the morality of the issue is predicated on just that.
#353 Posted by PM on April 7, 2003 7:19:01 am
MORE EVIDENCE OF DISMAL COMPREHENSION SKILL
re. Sadna:
You quote me thus:
``... being presented as having the same magnitude of import as the holding of tansparent elections, which, in any case, is not the issue with anyone. ``
and then write:
``Are you on something strong? You seem to be changing your story and your opinion or your personality as you go along. This was indeed an issue with you only a few posts ago. Here is your own post #305 among others to which I posted my reply:
[PM #305]:
``Amen, to that, brother! --though I don`t think, obsession or not, it would be easy or realistic-- given our history -- for mullahs, or even the common Pakistani, to forget the K issue as long as there are reports from there of gross human rights violations. India should, to this end, ensure transparency not only of state elections but its handling of dissent/ insurrection``
``
Err... which part of ``not only of state elections but...`` did you fail to understand, Sadna?
Let me make it real simple for you: Merely holding tranparent elections was not the issue with any of the guerilla parties involved in the violence in Kashmir. They are driven by intense distrust arising from past (and perhaps continuing artocities) committed by Indian forces (oh, i forgot, Indian forces don`t do such evil things, right?) and unless the same transparency/accountability extends to those issues it is fatuous to expect the jihadis to stop their activities. Also you lose the moral highground.
Of course, no one is suggesting that you are expected to `listen` to them. They are quite willing to die anyway, and for my money, we`d be better off, on the whole, without them.
But puh-leez, don`t try and tell us their actions and attitudes have been spawned in a moral vacuum. That just doesn`t wash, thank you.
re. Sadna:
You quote me thus:
``... being presented as having the same magnitude of import as the holding of tansparent elections, which, in any case, is not the issue with anyone. ``
and then write:
``Are you on something strong? You seem to be changing your story and your opinion or your personality as you go along. This was indeed an issue with you only a few posts ago. Here is your own post #305 among others to which I posted my reply:
[PM #305]:
``Amen, to that, brother! --though I don`t think, obsession or not, it would be easy or realistic-- given our history -- for mullahs, or even the common Pakistani, to forget the K issue as long as there are reports from there of gross human rights violations. India should, to this end, ensure transparency not only of state elections but its handling of dissent/ insurrection``
``
Err... which part of ``not only of state elections but...`` did you fail to understand, Sadna?
Let me make it real simple for you: Merely holding tranparent elections was not the issue with any of the guerilla parties involved in the violence in Kashmir. They are driven by intense distrust arising from past (and perhaps continuing artocities) committed by Indian forces (oh, i forgot, Indian forces don`t do such evil things, right?) and unless the same transparency/accountability extends to those issues it is fatuous to expect the jihadis to stop their activities. Also you lose the moral highground.
Of course, no one is suggesting that you are expected to `listen` to them. They are quite willing to die anyway, and for my money, we`d be better off, on the whole, without them.
But puh-leez, don`t try and tell us their actions and attitudes have been spawned in a moral vacuum. That just doesn`t wash, thank you.
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