Kashmir: Time for a Radical Approach?

PM #346
``I was defending the text of the originally posted HS article ``at face value``, not, in fact, knowing of his association with the LeT, then well, may i suggest the first steps in remedial reading comprehension to you: First, READ! Second, slow down, don`t prejudge, and lose the sanctimoniousness. ``

If you didnot know who he is why were you arguing about him? Weren`t you the least bit curious who he was? A little bit less sanctimoniousness on YOUR side and a little more honesty toward the subject being discussed would have lead you to do a google and see who the guy was.

You speak on subjects you know nothing about, defend extremists you know nothing about, who turn out to be as good as mass murderers, but you make no effort to seek information and still go ahead and call others sanctimonious while doing so.

I for one remember clearly that I used to post articles on LeT and Hafiz Saeed, I have even posted their website as reference(after which the interactor stopped replying). At that time I would be called a hate mongerer with quite the same objectivity as you are displaying now. And you expect Indians to discuss J&Kashmir with you. You are just a bunch of dishonest hypocrites.

Hmm, all I can say is that after reading 329 plus posts, I have come to the conclusion that no radical approach is possible in terms of a solution to Kashmir. They will keep killing us and we will keep killing them on the battlefield. This has to carry on till one or the other is exhausted.

As an Indian, I feel that our countrymen who are killed are uniformed soldiers, people who are important for us; as opposed to Pakistanis who are mere canon fodder. The Pakistani nation does not care about their people who die but we certainly care about our people who die. That puts Pakistan at an advantage.

In order for us to regain our advantage, we must make the Pakistanis who sit back and run the Kashmir policy without getting their hands dirty, pay for their involvement. It means hitting the Pakistani middle class;making victims out of them. A conventional war is of advantage to India because it will allow us to make widows and orphans out of the wives and children of military officers of the Pakistan Army. They are doing this to our military but we are not doing it to them. Let the generals pay with their lives. In terms of counter-terrorism as well, the target should be victims that matter, not Jihadi scum that is a dime a dozen for their own country.

``That the ISI/military gang in Pakistan will render judgement on India and indian democracy?``

Why not? After all Patrick Masih is quite comfortable with the idea of the Jehadis passing a judgement on Pakistani Christians as well. Multiple times.

Hey Dumbass:

``Now I`m starting to not even blame you for ignoring the fact that Kashmir is NOT, according to US stipulation, Indian territory but ``disputed territory``.

According to the UN, the entire Kashmir territory is disputed. If the LeT has a moral right to enter Indian Kashmir to kill our people, then we too have the right to enter the ``Disputed by UN Pakistan Occupied Kashmir`` to kill as many Muslims as we want. Why then does Musharaf talk of nuclear war?

The UN may consider the Kashmir territory on both sides of the LOC as disputed. But it certainly does not recognize the rights of supra nationalist extra constitutional groups like the Lashkar e Taiba to mete out what they recognize as justice. For you to give the Jihadis a ``Moral perspective`` is laughable.

But hey, I`ll just wait around for divine justice..the next time you happen to pray at the wrong church at the wrong time. :)

#307 by PM on April 6, 2003 6:16am PT

Only someone as deluded as you would stupidly separate a common man from his government. Or it could be because in Pakistan, the common man has never really mattered, having been ruled continuously either by the Army or the feudals. But how did “pragmatic” Pakistan’s involvement in Afghanistan suddenly cease to serve its interests after just one telephone call from President Bush?

[The jihadis may be terribly misguided, but please give them their dues: they`re not mere oppportunists, as are some of teh most powerful folks in the world today (before whom perahps you perform puja).]

Patrick mate, you’re in dire need of psychiatric help. It’s not us, it’s you guys bending over backwards worshipping your new best friends, even as they ream your a**es regularly, carting off Paki nationals off to Guantanamo Bay, no questions asked, and insult you publicly on Paki soil by calling your country the platform for terrorism. What’s worse, you have to suffer the humiliation of being fingerprinted by the INS, despite being what you proudly like to refer as “the frontline ally”. But what do you do? Like an loyal lap dog, you have no choice but to suffer in silence, or Uncle Sam will turn the $$ tap off. Even a tiny Cuba has fared better, fending off the American threat.

[Some friendly advice: Don`t tune in to Sesame Street today. They`re doing the letter `J`. Wouldn`t want you getting convulsions and/or elileptic-like fits.]

Ah, there you show your true colors!! Are you trying to scare me into submission just in case you aren’t able to convince me with your post? Talk sense Patrick. Or get help.

sadna # 340

`` an attack in which 3-4 innocent people were killed, including civilians. ``

Following that attack, Cowasjee wrote an article basically accusing India of organizing the `drama.`

#332 by sadna on April 6, 2003 7:57pm PT
``PS: PM #338
I too would recommend reading comprehension classes to you. I was trying to tell you that Indians can be expected to retaliate when attacked by armed religious bigots( those who kill out of religious hatred are bigots where I come from).``

Where, dear lady, did you find me saying that I expected Indians to fight fire with anything but fire? (Like I said, remedial reading is now desperately needed, unless of course, you are deliberately putting words in my mouth. Consider it an open challenge to show where I have made the suggestion you contend I have. Pmishra2, the invitation extends to you too-- that is if you actually get off your high horse and current obsession with HS and L-i-T).

Oh and, btw, state machinery that supresses dissent or insurrection through the methods used by the Indian army in the 80s & 90s is called fascist where I come from.

re. #331 by sadna
``In case you missed other aspects of Hafiz Saeed`s deep comittment to justice and democratic values, let me mention...``
In case in your sactimonious torpor you missed the point I made (first to pmishra then to Ralph) that I was defending the text of the originally posted HS article ``at face value``, not, in fact, knowing of his association with the LeT, then well, may i suggest the first steps in remedial reading comprehension to you: First, READ! Second, slow down, don`t prejudge, and lose the sanctimoniousness.

re. #339 by pmishra2
``You haven`t answered Sadna`s main point: we are to believe that warlord and religous bigot like Hafiz Saeed is an individual to need to negotiate with?
Only if you can show me where i havesuggested the same. Otherwise... off to Reading Comprehension 101 with you too!!

``That the ISI/military gang in Pakistan will render judgement on India and indian democracy?``

Now I`m starting to not even blame you for ignoring the fact that Kashmir is NOT, according to US stipulation, Indian territory but ``disputed territory``. You see, coming from one who can post a 47,456-word article on the the Lashkar`s wrong doings without making so much as a single admission of Indian artrocities, I`m really not surpised at this lack of balance or judgement at all.

re. #339 by pmishra2
``You haven`t answered Sadna`s main point: we are to believe that warlord and religous bigot like Hafiz Saeed is an individual to need to negotiate with?``

Only if you can show me where i havesuggested the same. Otherwise... off to Reading Comprehension 101 with you too!!

``That the ISI/military gang in Pakistan will render judgement on India and indian democracy?``

Now I`m starting to not even blame you for ignoring the fact that Kashmir is NOT, according to US stipulation, Indian territory but ``disputed territory``. You see, coming from one who can post a 47,456-word article on the the Lashkar`s wrong doings without making so much as a single admission of Indian artrocities, I`m really not surpised at this lack of balance or judgement at all.

More information on the ``Gandhi`` of Pakistan, as proclaimed by HisFlatulence and by his great fan PM. A more nasty warlord, hatemonger and religous fanatic would be hard to imagine.
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The Lashkar e Taiba and its political wing called the Markaz Dawa Al Irshad have for many years been calling for the expansion of the so-called jihad to the rest of India from Jammu & Kashmir for creating two independent homelands for the Muslims of South and North India. As a first step in this jihad, it had in the past called for intensified activities in Hyderabad and Junagadh, which it looks upon as Pakistani territory. The Red Fort, as the seat of the Muslim rulers of the past, is an important symbol in its eyes. This paper is a backgrounder on the Lashkar e Taiba. It has been prepared out of extracts from past papers on various subjects written by the author.

While reporting the Red Fort attack on December 22, 2000, sections of the foreign media described the Lashkar as a Kashmiri militant organisation. It is not. It is a Pakistani organisation based in Pakistan and operating from there. It is a member of Osama bin Laden`s International Islamic Front For Jihad Against the US and Israel. The wrong perceptions abroad about this organisation need to be corrected vigorously.


The activities of Osama bin Laden and his announcement of an International Islamic Front For Jihad against the US and Israel assume ominous significance in the context of his past and continuing links with the Markaz Dawa Al Irshad (the Centre For Preaching) of Pakistan and the Lashkar-e-Toiba (the Army of the Pure), its militant wing. The Markaz and the Lashkar have been involved in acts of terrorism, not only in J & K, but also in other parts of India.

The Markaz was founded in 1987, at the inspiration of Osama bin Laden, by Zafar Iqbal and Hafiz Mohammad Saeed of the University of Engineering and Technology of Lahore and Abdullah Azam of the International Islamic University, which has been funded by bin Laden. Abdullah Azam was killed in an explosion at Peshawar in 1989 and, after his death, Zafar Iqbal and Hafiz Mohammad Saeed have been leading the Markaz while continuing to teach at the University.

The headquarters of the Markaz, occupying over 190 acres of land, are located at Muridke, about 45 kms from Lahore in Pakistani Punjab. Its vast campus contains a huge Jamia mosque for the construction of which bin Laden had reportedly contributed Rs.10 million, a garments factory, an iron foundry, a wood works factory, a swimming pool and three residential colonies for the inmates. A big Islamic University is also coming up.

The ``Herald``, the monthly journal of the prestigious ``Dawn`` group of publications of Karachi, reported as follows in January, 1998: ``While the Dawa is involved in various areas, including religious education and social welfare, it is mainly through its militant wing that it is well known throughout the country. The Lashkar-e-Toiba provides military training to its members and prepares them to wage jihad. Although the Lashkar was initially involved in Afghanistan as well, its activities are now restricted to Indian Kashmir. Today, it is Pakistan’s largest so-called jihadi organisation.``

It quoted an office-bearer of the Lashkar as stating as follows: `` There are many other jihadi groups operating inside Kashmir, but their members are mainly local men (Kashmiris), assisted by fighters from other countries, such as Pakistan and Afghanistan. Eighty per cent of the Mujahideen in other jihadi groups operating in Kashmir come from that area, but the case with the Lashkar is exactly the opposite. Eighty per cent of its soldiers belong to Pakistan.``

The ``Herald`` added: `` The Lashkar prefers not to reveal the exact number of men it has currently deployed in Kashmir. The Amir ( Hafiz Mohammad Saeed) decides how many Mujahideens should be sent to the (Kashmir) Valley. The decision depends on the number of deaths that have taken place. It also depends on the requirement and capacity of the organisation inside Kashmir to absorb the new fighters. What is known, however, is that the Lashkar recruits and trains many more men than it actually requires to fight in Kashmir at any given time.

`` Compared to other similar organisations, the Lashkar has proved to be a resounding success. Since its inception, it has managed to attract thousands of committed young men to its fold. The driving force behind its massive success in recruitment is deceptively simple. It uses its impressive organisational network, which includes schools, social service groups and religious publications, to create a passion for jihad.``

According to the ``Herald``, the Lashkar organises two kinds of military training – a 21-day basic course called ``Daura Aam`` and a three-months advanced course called ``Daura Khas``. The entire advanced course is geared towards guerilla warfare, with training in the use of arms and ammunition, ambush and survival techniques. Other Pakistani press reports after the arrest of Ramzi Yousef, (involved in the bombing of the New York World Trade Centre in February 1993) had also revealed that in the past some volunteers were also trained in aircraft-hijacking.

The Markaz and the Lashkar are extremely secretive organisations and take great care to conceal the real identities of their office-bearers except the Amir and their fighters. For this purpose, they emulate the Palestinian organisations in the use of ``Kuniat``, which are Arabic pseudonyms adopted from the ``Kuniats`` of the Companions of the Prophet and later Islamic heroes.

Whereas in the Palestinian organisations, the ``Kuniats`` die with the holder and the same ``Kuniat`` is not allotted to any other fighter, in the Markaz and the Lashkar, the ``Kuniat`` does not die with the holder. The same ``Kuniat`` is allotted to another fighter. It is not unusual to come across two individuals with the same or similar ``Kuniats``.

Past reports on the activities of the Markaz and the Lashkar had referred to two heroes of the organisation who had reportedly played a legendary role in assisting the Bosnian Muslims in their fight against the Serbs.. One of them used to be referred to as Abu Aziz and the other as Abu Abdul Aziz.

Abu Abdul Aziz, who is suspected to be none other than Osama Bin Laden, is a leading financier of the Markaz and the Lashkar and had contributed Rs.10 million for the construction of a mosque and another sum for the construction of a special guest house inside the Muridke complex of these organisations. This guest house was initially built by bin Laden as a house for his stay during his visits to Pakistan, but, after 1992, the Pakistani authorities do not allow him to stay in Pakistani territory for fear of annoying the US, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. He has, therefore, converted it into a guest house for his associates from Saudi Arabia and elsewhere visiting Pakistan.

It is reported that this guest house was also used as a hide-out for Ramzi Yousef and Mir Aimal Kansi, a Pathan from Balochistan, who was arrested and taken to the US last year and subsequently convicted and sentenced to death for murdering two CIA officers outside the CIA’s headquarters in Washington in January, 1993.

While Osama bin Laden no longer attends the annual gatherings of the Markaz and the Lashkar at Muridke, he addresses them over the conference phone. Till 1995, he used to address the gathering from his hide-out in the Sudan and, since 1996, he has been doing so from Afghanistan. Addressing the last annual conference at Muridke in November, 1997, over phone from Kandahar, bin Laden said: `` Those who oppose jihad are not true Muslims..``

There is some confusion about the real identity of Abu Aziz. He used to attend the annual conferences at Muridke till 1993 and was introduced to the gatherings as a Saudi Muslim of Indian origin who was co-ordinating the flow of assistance to the Bosnian Muslims. He has not been heard of since then. It needs to be checked up whether bin Laden’s parents or other ancestors had, by any chance, migrated to Yemen from India before proceeding from there to Saudi Arabia. If this was so, there could be a possibility that Abu Abdul Aziz and Abu Aziz are one and the same person—Osama bin Laden.

There are some distinguishing characteristics about the operational methods of the Lashkar militants. They do not shave or have a hair- cut and allow their beard and hair to grow long and are taught to employ extremely cruel methods such as beheading and disembowelling their victims from the security forces and non-Muslim communities. Like fighters of many other jihadi organisations, they generally wear shalwars, which do not cover the ankle.

As regards ideology, the Markaz, an Ahle Hadith organisation of Wahabi orientation, was initially very close to Saudi Arabia, but seems to have developed differences with it because of its proximity to Osama bin Laden and of its contention that even Saudi Arabia does not have an ideal Islamic society. Its criticism of the stationing of US and other Western troops in Saudi Arabia also contributed to this. It describes the Hindus and Jews, in that order, as the main enemies of Islam and India and Israel as the main enemies of Pakistan. Its Amir is a strong opponent of Western-style democracy.

The Amir said in an interview to the ``Herald``: ``Democracy is among the menaces we inherited from an alien government. It is part of the system we are fighting against. Many of our brothers feel that they can establish an Islamic society by working within the system. They are mistaken. It is not possible to work within a democracy and establish an Islamic system. You just dirty your hands by dealing with it. If God gives us a chance, we will try to bring in the pure concept of an Islamic Caliphate.``

The ``News`` of Pakistan (November 23,1997) reported as follows on the ideology and beliefs of the Markaz Amir as reflected during its annual conference of November, 1997: ``The Markaz is trying to take advantage of the growing public discontent with the political system and widespread corruption. Using explicit references to the hardline Taliban in Afghanistan, it is making growing references to ending the democratic system in Pakistan. Prof.Saeed calls for a jihad to turn Pakistan into a pure Islamic state.

`` He rejects democracy saying that ``the notion of the sovereignty of the people is anti-Islamic. Only Allah is sovereign.`` The whole venue of the congregation was full of signboards with the slogan ``Jamhooriat ka jawab, grenade and blast (the answer to democracy, grenade and blast)``. Saeed was categorical in saying that his organisation had no immediate designs in Pakistan, even though the present system in Pakistan was not Islamic..

``He stated: ``In fact, there is no Islamic government in the world. Not even in Saudi Arabia, where the system is closer to Islamic teaching, but still not fully Islamic.`` He expressed his happiness over the success of the Taliban in Afghanistan.

``He said his organisation’s main interest in Pakistan was to pick people and train them to wage jihad in countries where an unislamic government was in power.``

The paper quoted him as saying as follows: ``God has ordained every Muslim to fight until His rule is established. We have no option but to follow God’s order. We continue to support other Islamic organisations in the world. This is a very long battle.``

The paper concluded as follows: `` The thumping success of the Muridke gathering took the government and the intelligence agencies by surprise…...Observers say the failure of the political government and growing poverty have turned Pakistan into a breeding ground of organisations carrying out jihad in various countries. Most intelligence officers interviewed by the daily view the unchecked military training of youngsters in the name of launching a jihad outside Pakistan as the most serious threat to the integrity and security of the country in the very near future.``

Even though the Pakistani authorities are concerned over the impact of the organisation on Pakistani youth which could, in the long run, lead to the Talibanisation of Pakistan with a Pakistani version of the Taliban possibly getting its finger on the nuclear trigger, they continue to use the Markaz and the Harkat-ul-Ansar, categorised as a terrorist organisation by the US last year, in their proxy war against India and leaders like Mr.Mushahid Hussain, Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s Information Minister, continue to openly flirt with the organisation and bless its activities against India.

When the Markaz was started in 1987, it had a two-fold objective: to assist the Afghan Mujahideen and to rid Islam in Pakistan of what it projected as the corrupting influence of Hinduism. It continues to wage a sustained campaign against what it sees as the evil influence of sufism and Kashmiriyat. As it looks upon Kashmiriyat as the expression of the evil Hindu mind, many of its operations in J & K are directed against the Hindus.

Unlike the Kashmiri extremist organisations which describe their aim as the right of self-determination for the Kashmiris, the Markaz describes its objective as the liberation of the Muslims of J & K from the control and influence of the Hindus followed by the liberation of the Muslims of the rest of India. It describes Kashmir as the gateway to India and calls for the creation of three Pakistans or Muslim homelands—with Pakistan and J & K constituting one, the Muslims of North India forming the second and the Muslims of South India, the third.

Addressing the Lahore Press Club on February 18,1996,Amir Saeed said: ``The jihad in Kashmir would soon spread to entire India. Our Mujahideen would create three Pakistans in India.``

In an interview to the ``Takbeer`` of Pakistan (October 9,1997), he said: `` We feel that Kashmir should be liberated at the earliest. Thereafter, Indian Muslims should be aroused to rise in revolt against the Indian Union so that India gets disintegrated.``

Amongst other leading office-bearers of the Markaz are Yusuf Taibi, who is in charge of external relations, and Amir Hamza, Editor of its journal called `` Majla Al Dawa``, which claims to have a circulation of 70,000 (Rs.12 per copy). The Markaz describes photo cameras, TV sets and movie films as unIslamic. It carries out periodic campaigns for the destruction in public of cameras and TV sets and appeals to the public not to see films.

The Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) of Pakistan and the CIA made full use of the Markaz against the Soviet troops in Afghanistan. After the withdrawal of the Soviet troops, the CIA cut off its links with the organisation, but the ISI has been continuing to use it to instigate acts of terrorism not only in Kashmir, but also in other parts of India. The Markaz’s objective of radicalising sections of the Muslim community in North and South India and setting them up against the Hindus and the Union of India suits the operational aims of the ISI.

At the same time, the Pakistani authorities have been concerned over the Markaz’s links with Osama bin Laden and other anti-monarchy Saudi dissidents. Their discomfiture is likely to increase with the announcement by bin Laden of the formation of an International Islamic Front against the US and Israel.

The threat posed to regional peace and stability by the Markaz and the Lashkar needs to be adequately highlighted in international fora.

PM #338
``we wouldn`t happen to be trying to get off the subject, now would we?`` Or are you suggesting that a man`s odious values in one area renders his actions (and motives) in all other areas equally odious? ``

In case you missed other aspects of Hafiz Saeed`s deep comittment to justice and democratic values, let me mention his organisation has repeatedly proclaimed its intention to fly their flag on Red Fort, Delhi, and on the Jamat Dawa website, an attack by its jihadis on the Red Fort in Delhi was celebrated for months together after the event, an attack in which 3-4 innocent people were killed, including civilians.

PS: PM #338
`` armed religious folks (I didn`t say `bigots`!) can be expected to retaliate when their co-religionists --separated in nationality by a mere one-and-a-half generations-- are reportedly being raped, killed and otherwise persecuted. Now, why was that so difficult to comprehend? ``

I too would recommend reading comprehension classes to you. I was trying to tell you that Indians can be expected to retaliate when attacked by armed religious bigots( those who kill out of religious hatred are bigots where I come from).

In Jihadi worldview, there are two kinds of people: good people and evil people. Muslims are good, non-Muslims are evil. However, the definition of Muslim is quite constrained in a Jihadi`s dictionary.

Since most Jihadis are Wahhabites, they consider Shias, Ismailis, and Barelvis as quasi-Muslims. If any quasi-Muslim collaborates with a non-Muslim, he becomes evil too.

The definition of a Muslim, according to Jihadis, is someone who:

a) Doesn`t drink.
b) Has a beard long enough to fit in one fist below the chin.
c) Offers 5 prayers daily. The ankles must be bare at all times.
d) Does not have any non-Muslim friends
e) Strives 24/7, 365 days a year for the glory of his brand of Islam. In pursuit of this goal, it is his duty to order his fellow brethren to offer nimaz, to fast, etc. If he sees anyone committing a sin, he must walk up to that person and scold him regardless of age, level of familiarity, relationship or other conditions.

Jihadis believe in a black & white world in which they define black and white. However, once a Jihadi has been oriented, he behaves like a ``Terminator``. You can let him loose on anything. He will not rest until he dies or the mission is accomplished.

To be fair, the Jihadis played a crucial role in bringing USSR to its knees. Of course American arms and Saudi money helped, but somebody had to face the Soviet bullets.

In 1989, when Kashmir suddenly erupted, it took both ISI and RAW by surprise. Nobody in Pakistan was expecting this, although the cavalier Hameed Gul tried to take credit for this. Yet this set the Pakistan Army thinking.

In the initial years of Kashmir insurgency, most of the fighters were Kashmiris. JKLF was in the lead followed by Harkat-ul-Ansar. In the meantime, Jihadis were busy fighting the Afghan Civil War.

With the spectacular success of Taliban in 1996, Afghanistan finally saw some peace. Now the Jihadis were like a hammer, looking for nails. The Northern Alliance had been pushed to a small enclave. There were no more ``evil people`` to be killed.

So the Jihadis returned home to Pakistan, and started killing Shias. Several top ranking bureaucrats were gunned down in broad daylight. Pakistan government panicked. It was time to do something fast.

So they decided to pump some Jihadis into Azad Kashmir. It was politically tough for Pakistan to jail or kill these Jihadis because of their Mullah overlords. By sending them into Kashmir, Pakistan could kill two birds with one stone. If Jihadis fall to Indian bullets, good riddance. Otherwise if the Jihadis kill some Indian soldiers, Kashmir issue will stay ``hot``.

As a result of this clever policy, India started feeling the heat in Kashmir. The casualty ratio on Indian side rose drastically between 1996 and 2001. Between 1990 and 1996, most of freedom fighters were Kashmiri. After 1996, the % of outsiders (Chechen, Punjabi, Pathan, Arab) fighters registered a drastic increase. Nevertheless, Kashmiris still form a majority of freedom fighters. Outsiders brought with them, their brand of militant Islam, which is quite different from anything practised in Kashmir (or Pakistan for that matter).

Now in the aftermath of 9/11, Pakistan Army is finding it hard to deprogram these ``Terminators``. The Jihadis have granted an honorary membership to Musharraf in the ``Evil club``. He is now a dead-man-walking because of his betrayal of Taliban and decision to curb militant activities.

In my opinion, Pakistan should distance itself from the Jihadis and support the Kashmiri freedom fighters instead. A better step would be to pump the Jihadis into IoK so that Indian Army gets some target practise.

You haven`t answered Sadna`s main point: we are to believe that warlord and religous bigot like Hafiz Saeed is an individual to need to negotiate with? That the ISI/military gang in Pakistan will render judgement on India and indian democracy?


hah, hah ! What a clown ! What is next? Maybe we should also read Mein Kampf to understand Jewish culture? Maybe we should ask the hoodlums of the VHP and Bajrang Dal on the correct model for indian minorities?

I guess this is a good introduction to the ``Alice-in-Wonderland`` world of Pakistani ``intellectual`` (stop laughing back there!). No wonder independent commentators leave the country wondering not if but only when the apocalypse will arrive there.

re. #328 by Ralph
The Turkish-kurd-aiding-Iraqi-Kurd-against-Ba`ath analogy was made in #307.
You`re welcome.

PM #333
You say:
``It is interesting to hear from Sadna, apparently an Indian, that Hafiz Saeed and other leaders, in not making public their financial books, or failing to criticize the absence of democracy in their neck of the wood, should somehow lose the moral prerogative to desire to avenge the oppression (even if exaggerated) of their brothers in faith in a UN-defined disputed territory``

You bet they lose their moral prerogative. Hafiz Saeed can keep claiming the moral prerogative, its not incumbent on Indians to grant it. What is interesting is Pakistanis like you choose to grant religious bigots like him and drug traffickers that moral prerogative wrt an issue like Kashmir which you claim to hold dear. What will you grant to them next, your grandmothers?

You say:
`` Examples of such obfuscation are (i) the demand for independent human rights` observers (especially when the reported state-sponsored oprresson was at its peak, creating extremisits where there may have been none) being presented as having the same magnitude of import as the holding of tansparent elections, which, in any case, is not the issue with anyone. ``


Are you on something strong? You seem to be changing your story and your opinion or your personality as you go along. This was indeed an issue with you only a few posts ago. Here is your own post #305 among others to which I posted my reply:

``Amen, to that, brother! --though I don`t think, obsession or not, it would be easy or realistic-- given our history -- for mullahs, or even the common Pakistani, to forget the K issue as long as there are reports from there of gross human rights violations. India should, to this end, ensure transparency not only of state elections but its handling of dissent/ insurrection``.