Kashmir: Time for a Radical Approach?

#124 by tahmed32:

{…You are preaching to the converted here. I dont think (except for a few paper warriors) anyone will seriously disagree that we need to end the feud over Kashmir….]

---where are they? Why don’t they speak up instead of these knee-jerkers?

[…Please direct your query to Musharaff…]

---you must be kidding suggesting querying President-General-god- Musharraf…in Unraveling Pakistan: Taming The Shrew-Mare I argued to throw the whole lot out if we have to have any chance…

rgds,

t

I AM THE CHEESE:

``musharrafs personal victory at agra was at the cost of pakistan as a nation ``

My point was that Musharaf considered his personal victory to be a victory for Pakistan and you all agreed with him at the time.

# 116

Jamshed wrote:
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``They were already protesting against the rule of Maharaja Hari Singh when Pundit Nehru sent in the Indian forces into Kashmir and got the accession of Kashmir by force.``
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Pakistani commentators are better informed than Jamshed.

It was Pakistan that violated the standstill agreement it had reached with the kingdom of Jammu & Kashmir by unleashing tribal militias on the kingdom.

Here`s how a DAWN article describes the genesis of the LoC:

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DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
27th July, 1999

Kargil - before and after

By Zafar Iqbal

``MILITARILY, the critical point which was supposed to have created the Kashmir problem was the hiatus in the tribesman`s march towards Srinagar when they stopped for a bit of ``rest and recreation`` (R&R) at Baramulla about a dozen miles from Srinagar airport. Their concept of recreation included a diversion into some looting and pillage and possibly a bit of rape on the side.``

``Anyway, whatever the truth, this window of opportunity permitted the Indians to capture Srinagar airport and bring in reinforcements; at least so the story is told. The ultimate result was the cease-fire line.``
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And this is what Altaf Gauhar (the powerful information secretary in the regime of ``Field Marshal`` Ayub Khan) writes about the same:

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The Nation
(Reprinted in Pakistan Link of 9/10/99)

Four Wars, one Assumption
Altaf Gauhar

``.....the Kashmir invasion, planned by hoardes of lawless tribesmen of the NWF, who indulged in murder and looting as they moved into the territory of Jammu and Kashmir. Khurshid Anwar, an ex-army officer, who was killed in the operation, was supposed to be the main organiser of this operation. The tribesmen were assured that the Indian army was too ill-organised to offer any counter offensive, so they could fight their war of freedom without fear. No one remembered that frontier rebels do not fight wars of freedom on behalf of other people. They settle their
tribal disputes through looting, murder and devastation.``
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Pandit Nehru promised a plebiscite in the UN general assembly only because he failed to convince the world community with the crap all these Indians are repeating again and again on this forum.

I don`t know why they still think that they`ll be able to convince Paks with all this nonsense. Their leaders know that they`re nothing but cheats that`s why they don`t dare to discuss this issue in a civilized manner. As a result, it`s them who are at the recieving end of the kicks Kashmiris and the laugh of the international community. Indians will keep getting it but Kashmir. Pakistan is loosing nothing.

#112

HisExcellency declared:
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``Therefore, I renew my challenge to you since you didn`t meet it first time: Is there any evidence or opinion to suggest that Pakistan army has ever made designs to conquer India?``
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I see no need to meet his renewed challenge - Chowkies are quite capable of judging if I met his challenge the first time or not. HisExcellency is most welcome to declare ``victory`` if that`s what it takes to soothe his heart-burn.

Here is a `face saving` solution to the Kashmir problem,

1. India & Pakistan agree that the current status of Kashmir is disputed.
2. India and Pakistan agree that the final status of Kashmir should be reached by negotiations betwee the peoples of Kashmir, India and Pakistan.
3. The people of Kashmir on each side of LOC agree to negotiate separately.
4. The people of Kashmir west of LOC negotiate with Pakistan only. The people of Kashmir east of LOC negotiate with India only.
5. India and Pakistan, respecting the wishes of the Kashmiri people do not interfere with negotiations in which they are not involved.

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[Yes, Pak Military`s case is really about real estate.]

What a hypocritical argument! A property snatcher accusing the victim`s attorney of land-grabbing. Hats off to this Indian chowkie for accurately depicting the Bharati mindset.

If Kashmiris were so averse to Pakistan Army`s dominance in politics, they would certainly have revolted in PoK. But this has never happened. What an irony! Kashmiris would rather be independent or part of military-dominated Pakistan than democratic India.

Indian democracy is quite an oxymoron. It is simply ``government of the Hindus, for the Hindus, by the Hindus``. History has proven this in Punjab and Kashmir. A long as J&K Chief Ministers are pliant lackeys of New Delhi, they are hailed as ``Sher-e-Kashmir``. The moment they show some guts and represent their constituents, it`s jail time baby!

A democracy that can`t prevent politico-religious mobs from razing a mosque despite a court order... is a joke. And it is not just Pakistanis who are laughing, the Americans are also joining in. Both US and European governments are questioning the ability of Indian governments to respect human rights of minorities.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/2003/Apr/01/181_225541,00050002.htm

re: nakhok

[Given the fact that the mainstream columnists in Pakistan seem overwhelmingly in favor of of what HisExcellency is dismissing as ``unilateral policy change``, it shouldn`t be difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff.]

Do you sensibly believe that Pakistan will ever perform a unilateral about turn on Kashmir? Doesn`t the experience of India`s vain mobilization last year teach you anything?

Despite the Indian mobilization and repeated US/UK pressure, Pakistan didn`t budge an inch on the Kashmir policy itself. Infiltration was brought down for a few weeks in August/September to call the Indian bluff, but then resumed again.

American pressure and Indian threats are subject to the ``law of diminishing returns`` when it comes to Kashmir. Unless India reciprocates and negotiates, Pakistan won`t do any unilateral about-turn on Kashmir.

Only a descendant of Rip Van Winkle will believe otherwise.

Rin Van Winkle 137

>Only a descendant of Rip Van Winkle will believe otherwise

Don`t we all know where all Rip Van Winkles exist?

This Rip Van Winkle is right. Jinnah declared that Kashmir is the jugular vein of Pakistan. Instead of complaining that Pakistanis stabbed them in the back, Indians should accept that they will be stabbed everytime they agree to talk to Musharraf Sena. They should devise alternate methods for the liberation of Pakistan from the rule of Rip Van Winkles.

Isn`t this Indians` duty? After all this used to be the land of Hindus. Don`t wait too long. Rip Van Winkles have done all they could.

temporal #128 I havent read all the posts on this board, but if you say so it would seem the paper warriors are having a field day. And of course I am kidding. Finding a solution is not the problem. Finding the problem is the problem. (Hope this does not obfuscate my point even more).

re: #138

[Instead of complaining that Pakistanis stabbed them in the back, Indians should accept that they will be stabbed everytime they agree to talk to Musharraf Sena.]

What were you expecting? India would break its promises made before UN Security Council, reject all UN resolutions, interfere in Pakistan`s internal affairs in 1971, violate Simla Agreement by snatching Siachin, provoke terrorist activities in Karachi through RAW and Pakistan would do nothing? India is better off adopting the Gujral Doctrine of pacifying itse neighbours instead of picking fights with them.

[Isn`t this Indians` duty? After all this used to be the land of Hindus. Don`t wait too long. Rip Van Winkles have done all they could. ]

So finally you spelled out the real reason for Indian transigence on Kashmir i.e. the intense hatred for Pakistan`s existence. Well the lands west of Wagah belong to no Hindu.. No point in asserting rights that never existed.

Now Rest In Peace!

The land of Pakistan and Kashmir never used to be a Hindu land in history. Hindus tried their best for more than 4000 years but failed to dominate the people of this land. They, recently, succeeded in getting Kashmir and east Punjab by cheating Kashmiris and decieving Sikhs. They cannot hold on this area for long. They`re already loosing. Their days are numbered.

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#132 by arjun_m

In your rush to bash Pakistan, you swtiched some dates. Here is the corrected chronology:

9/11: Terrorists attack WTC

9/12: India offers bases. US rejects. Vajpayee refuses to eat for one week.

9/12: Pakistani security agencies start brainstorming sessions to deal with the emerging scenarios. The Pakistani response is ready before Colin Powell makes the telephone call. (I know this because my dad was in those meetings in Islamabad).

9/13: Colin Powell tells Musharraf that ``American people will not understand if Pakistan refuses to cooperate``. Musharraf is already prepared with his answer and tells Powell that Pakistan is on board.

9/13: Powell conveys Musharraf`s decision to Bush. The Americans rejoice. Far away in New Delhi, Jaswant Singh informs Advani of Musharraf`s decision. Advani has a nervous breakdown.

9/16: Bush calls Musharraf and thanks him for making the right decision. Advani`s doctor advises him to take a day off from work.

12/13: India stages an attack on its Parliament in desperate bid to equate Kashmir movement with terrorism. India accuses Pakistan of Parliament attack even before an inquiry is completed.

12/15: FBI offers to assist in investigation of Parliament attack. Naturally, India refuses because the entire episode smacks of Indian foulplay.

The rest as they say is history :)