Pakistan The Land of the pure - A Myth or Reality

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Pakistan To Name Al-Qaida A Terror Organization Soon -Min
DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

ISLAMABAD (AP)--Pakistan, which has been a key partner in U.S.-led war on terrorism, has decided to legally declare the al-Qaida network a terrorist organization, easing legal hurdles against suspected supporters, the interior minister said Monday.

Pakistan has surrendered more than 400 suspected al-Qaida operatives to U.S. law enforcement agencies, including two top lieutenants of Osama Bin Laden.

But the government wants to tighten the mechanism for bringing lower level supporters of the shadowy network to court, such as those who have harbored wanted al-Qaida fugitives but who haven`t committed terrorist actions themselves.

``We are in the process of declaring al-Qaida a terrorist organization,`` said Interior Minister Faisal Saleh Hayyat.

Cooperation between Pakistani authorities and agents of the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency and the Federal Bureau of Investigation led to the capture in March 2002 of Abu Zubaydah, once bin Laden`s top terror coordinator, and a year later of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in New York and Washington.

In 2002, under U.S. pressure to ease tensions with neighboring India, Pakistan outlawed two anti-Indian militant groups and three radical Islamic organizations. But until now, it hasn`t taken similar measures against al-Qaida since it wasn`t a Pakistani organization.

``Practically, and by all means al-Qaida is a terrorist organization, but we want to formally declare it so to avoid some legal complications,`` said Interior Ministry official Brig. Javed Iqbal Cheema.

``This decision will help prosecutors get those people punished whose cases are pending in the courts for hiding al-Qaida men, Cheema said.

The minister was briefing reporters after returning from talks in France, Algeria and Egypt on cooperation.

He said France had agreed to train Pakistani agents, and all three countries agreed to share intelligence with Pakistan to strengthen the anti-terrorist alliance.

Hayyat signed an agreement in Algiers to extradite a few Algerians suspected of having links with al-Qaida. An unknown number of Arabs and other supporters who fight with al-Qaida in Afghanistan fled across the unmarked border into Pakistan after the U.S.-led coalition ousted the Taliban regime in Kabul in late 2001.

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AlephNull
My thesis has been that the less we talk about India`s space program the better. Ignorant people cannot attack what they donot know even exists, if you know what I mean.

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#97 HisExcellency

{It might come as a surprise to you that Pakistan launched two parallel missile development programs as early as 1991. One was called Kahuta Research Lab (later renamed to Khan Research Lab). The other was called National Defence Complex, a subsidiary of Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission. There was quite a professional rivalry between the two programs.}

Oh puhleaze … Professional rivalry in screwdriver technology? I am quite aware of that farcical comic-book clown show starring Xerox Khan and Photocopier Mubarakmand. Useful no doubt for fooling gullible true believers in Pakistan.

It is not an easy matter to develop long-range ballistic missiles. You need to master several nontrivial technologies, such as propulsion, guidance and control, manufacture of solid fuel with the proper burn characteristics, etc. Even fabricating the casing of a solid rocket motor is more difficult than it might seem at first sight. Just assembling competent manpower to work on all this would require the better part of decade, unless you get a massive infusion of already trained manpower as the US and the USSR did after WW II.

All this generally goes hand in hand with a space program or as a logical outgrowth. That is what India did, over four decades, starting from scratch, learning by doing, through failures and setbacks, and slowly assembling homegrown capability in the process. All this has been thoroughly documented in the Indian media, including all the failures and ‘partial successes’ of launches and test firings, and that is what gives it solid credibility.

{India also relied intensively on Russian cooperation for its nuclear and missile programs, yet the hypocritical Indian chowkies don`t want to acknowledge that.}

India bought cryogenic engine technology from Russia for the GSLV. They have been developing their own version. They got the USSR to launch satellites a while back. Not much else. As for nuclear matters, there are ongoing deals for the Russian supply of pressurized (light) water reactors for Indian nuclear power plants in Tamil Nadu (most unsuitable for breeding weapons-usable fissile material, BTW). The Russians also loaned a nuclear-propelled submarine in the early 90s. There is no evidence that they helped India’s weapons program. If anything the Russian government has historically been more conservative on nuclear proliferation issues than the US – they learned their lesson 40 years ago with the Chinese. There are concrete instances of this in the past.

{India chowkies are just sore that while India sent billions of dollars down the drain to produce their Agnis and Prithvis, Pakistan zoomed past them in less time and with fewer resources spent.}

India spent all that money so that they could do it themselves starting from the nuts and bolts. If you have what India has you ought to be able to launch a satellite into orbit pronto. Such trivialities as staging technology should not deter you. Let me know when it happens, with full television coverage of the launch. Until then, keep buying CKD kits from the Chinese and North Koreans, and try fooling someone else.

#98 His Excellency

{Pakistan has several quality educational institutions. You better right this down some place just to jog your memory later. Aitchison College, Karachi Grammar School}

Ah yes, Aitchison College, alma mater of the celebrated jihadi Omar Saeed Sheikh. Or was it Karachi Grammar School? Please do jog my memory … so that I can ‘right’ it down.

And while you are mentioning exclusive secondary institutions for Pakistan’s kleptocrats, why not begin at the primary level with Montessori this and Froebel that and Pestalozzi the other for the brats of the ruling class?

{ LUMS, GIK, Agha Khan Medical College, UET, etc are quality institutions that send hundreds of graduates each year to American/British universities.}

Yet comparatively little is heard of the such graduates. Allegedly they are part of a clandestine stealth program to pick the brains of Dar-ul-Harb. What a laugh!

{India simply produces more graduates, not better graduates.}

Quite so … just like the US simply produces more athletes than India, not better athletes. Talk of a vacuous claim – it would be true even if Pakistan produced 0 graduates!

The bottom line is that it takes decades to create a viable scientific community, with enough critical mass that it becomes self-sustaining. The only way to speed up the process is a massive infusion of trained scientific manpower from elsewhere – as happened from Nazi-occupied Europe into an already strong US scientific establishment. I wish Pakistan luck starting from a very low base.

re: Pakistani science
Our good friend Pervez Hoodhbhoy puts Pakistani science in correct perspective:
http://www.mnet.fr/aiindex/bombsandScience.html
And offers a solution:
http://web.mit.edu/bilal/www/education/hoodbhoy_around.html
Excerpts:
1. ``India today has the largest reservoir of Ph.D scientists and teachers in the Third World, numbering in the tens of thousands. Institutions such as the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, Madras Institute for Mathematical Sciences, and the five Indian Institutes for Technology, and several others, are simply world-class. They have no counterparts in Pakistan``
2. ``Given the highly asymmetrical Pakistan–India situation, it will be to Pakistan’s advantage if high-level manpower is imported from India – under strict conditions to be specified by Pakistan – for staffing Pakistan’s universities, technical colleges, and teacher training institutions.``
Another article on Pakistani science:
http://www.pakistanlink.com/Opinion/2002/May/17/01.html
Let scientists in both countries work together for the greater benefit of the masses. It is often not realised that science can actually change people`s lives. It is not just something fashionable. It can bring prosperity to nations.
Sridhar

^
#99


So, you fell for this trap too!
The Pakistani establishment worked overtime to see to it that its institutes of technology and [various advanced sciences] didn`t get listed and attracted attention.

Pakistan didn`t want another Pressler or its uncle or brother or nephew. God, do you mean this thing remained a secret? Good show for the Pakistanis!!

The Plan was logical and rational. Regionally accepted students were trained in Groups of no more than thirty each [a section!]. No foreign students were encouraged or accepted. So, there was no need to advertise the Institutes. A few thousand every year was an optimum number.

The scholarship holders from East Africa or Arab States were put through the regular schools of Arts and Engineering and Medicine. Not through the six Institutions each for each gender in the country.

Students from these were put through scholarship programs and through such elite schools as Stanford, MIT. U of Mich., and Cal Tech. Their return was assured. In the fourteen years of the functioning of these sent-overs I do not know of a case but one in which there was a ``drop-out`` and even that is in the process of being concluded in resumption of research back in its mother institute.

You wouldn`t see those institutes listed ANYWHERE!

Of course, you know that I josh.

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re: #96 by AlephNull

You seriously need a lesson in history and some basic facts on Pakistan. Much of what you are saying is propaganda and disinformation printed by so-called objective reporters of Hindustan Times, Times of India and chauvinistic Indian press in general.

It might come as a surprise to you that Pakistan launched two parallel missile development programs as early as 1991. One was called Kahuta Research Lab (later renamed to Khan Research Lab). The other was called National Defence Complex, a subsidiary of Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission. There was quite a professional rivalry between the two programs. KRL focussed on liquid fuel rockets, NDC explored the solid-fuel rocket program.

The impact of Pressler Amendment on Pakistan is now an established fact. It is also well-known that Pakistan was still hopeful of getting its 71 F-16s back from the U.S. until 1994 when Benazir visited Washington.

If you are even slightly knowledgable about Pakistan`s missile program, you would surely know that America alleges that Pakistan took Nodong and M-11 missiles, then modified them considerably to increase their payload and ranges.

India chowkies are just sore that while India sent billions of dollars down the drain to produce their Agnis and Prithvis, Pakistan zoomed past them in less time and with fewer resources spent.

India also relied intensively on Russian cooperation for its nuclear and missile programs, yet the hypocritical Indian chowkies don`t want to acknowledge that. Do I smell selective amnesia??

re: #96 by AlephNull

As expected, you threw a rhetorical argument in response to a fact-based argument. Perhaps you don`t know enough about Pakistan to be able to response with facts.

Pakistan has several quality educational institutions. You better right this down some place just to jog your memory later. Aitchison College, Karachi Grammar School, LUMS, GIK, Agha Khan Medical College, UET, etc are quality institutions that send hundreds of graduates each year to American/British universities.

India simply produces more graduates, not better graduates.

[A country like Pakistan whose public discourse is dominated by a mixture of ignorance, lies and delusion will be a desert for science for the foreseeable future.]

Please spare us your delusions about Pakistan`s political discourse. Pakistanis are smart enough not to elect butchers and religious fanatics like Narendera Modi, Bal Thackeray and Advani into power. Religious extremists have always been marginalized in Pakistani politics whereas BJP is now the majority party in India.

HisExcellency #75

{Pakistan`s missile programme was kick-started in 1993 when U.S. refused to deliver our F-16s that were already paid for. Pakistan was relying on F-16s as the delivery mode for nuclear weapons in the event of a war. Pressler Amendment compelled Pakistan to consider medium-range missiles as delivery mechanism. Since American companies were not willing to sell us components, we had to turn to Chinese model once again.}

What `missile program`? Are you seriously claiming that Pakistan has developed any missiles on its own?

{Unlike India, Pakistan`s road to nuclear weapons was marked by numerous roadblocks and sanctions from the West. But we still did it, and that is a great achievement.

Indians will continue to claim this as a bogus achievement.. their criticism doesn`t matter because this criticism is based on prejudices, jealousy or perhaps disinformation.

Nevertheless, I believe Pakistan needs to apply the same determination to scientific and industrial arenas.}

In order to do any science, you need an unflinching commitment to the truth, and a rigorously skeptical attitude to even your own fondest wishes. There are no miracles or short cuts in nurturing a viable scientific community, or for that matter developing full-fledged technical capability. A country like Pakistan whose public discourse is dominated by a mixture of ignorance, lies and delusion will be a desert for science for the foreseeable future. If the mass of Pakistani Chowkies are representative of their country`s `educated` elite, Pakistani science has no hope at all.

{Pakistan`s population is more than that of Russia, yet the number of PhDs, MBAs and engineering graduates is half that of Russia. This is something to focus on.}

You need to learn to roll, then crawl before you can think of taking baby steps, let alone walk or run. I seriously doubt that the number of PhDs Pakistan produces is even a tenth of Russia`s, even ignoring considerations of quality. Unless, of course, diplomas from the Haqqania madarsa are considered the equivalent of PhDs.

Russia is a genuine scientific powerhouse, even in its post-Soviet decline. It has regularly been producing world-class scientists, mathematicians and the like for at least one hundred and thirty years. It may make more sense for Pakistan to match the scientific output of the pint-sized European countries like the Netherlands before thinking of comparing themselves with giants like Russia.

ahmadzai # 89

``Even if they were in third rate madrassas, they would not have graduated to become equals of Advanis, Joshis and Modis in extremism ;)``

Advani, Joshi and Modi are not in the crosshairs of American and European intelligence agencies. I am sure a lot of folks who graduated from Pakistani madrasas are.

``Did it occur to your head that other Muslim coutries do not have many illegal immigrants in USA ? why make a rumpus on the INS registration ?
It is not like the INS was deporting people left and right.``

``OK forget about Muslims, because the word is irritant to our honorable Indian friends. How about Mexicans and Cubans? Why did the US Troika did not deport them?``

There are no illegal Cubans in USA. Any Cuban entering USA is granted political assylum automatically. It is the law of the land. Don`t ask me why Cubans deserve special treatment. Ask the people who write these laws.

Meicans are too numerous and being courted by both political parties.

``But let us get back to the issue. The point under discussion was in response to arjum_m`s or perhaps it was Jay or may be m_souza that Pakistan Government is keeping silent on unfair treatment to our citizens. I was arguing against that allegation.``

I would not say Pakistani government is silent. The Pakistani government has lesser clout and lesser moral standing to protect its citizens abroad than the Indian government. The lesser moral standing is due to some misguided policies of the Pakistani military establishment.

Please somebody get me deliverance from the pointers to the Dilli`s way!

I know where it is. Almost 145 million have bpointed to it

I want to see and join forces with the one[s] who will buy the ticket for it!!

Romair @ # 76:

Thank you for taking time out to respond to my posts.

You might be right about Canada and I think the line adopted by it may be because of their pre-dominantly French speaking Qubeck (spell?) province. During our last travel to Canada, I noticed that it now has a huge immigrant population. Many Pakistanis have made it their home. However, I am skeptical of its economics. It is a beautiful country though. We were able to explore a lot of off the map locations all over Ontario. We had a marvelous time there (if at all we would like to have our 2nd home, it would be in Cambridge near the Lion Safari ;)) People were friendly and really wanted to discuss Afghanistan situation and European destinations.

I am a bit skeptical of Imran Khan`s PTI. Unfortunately, in order to build his vote bank, he has decided to tow the line of MMA and is increasingly indulging in emotionalism. For example, in one of his interviews over European ARY Digital, he kept criticizing the Government on FBI`s involvement in Pakistan and on Iraq, as if we are super power of some sort that America will beg us deliverance if we took charge at them.

Behind all operations against alleged Al Qaeda operatives in Europe, FBI is omni-present and the local agencies are working with it in tandem. Countries like Germany, France, UK, Spain, Italy, etc. are silent knowing fully well who is All Powerful here. But Imran and MMA want Pakistani Government to go and grab US` by the balls as if we have the military and economic might that USA will be scared of us.

Imran Khan and MMA leadership need to be sensible and rational in their approach.

The other two groups - PML Nawaz and PPP have their own hidden agenda. they would like this Government to fail so that elections are held again and they could score some points. Hence, they are verbally supporting MMA.

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