The Saffron Autumn

12-head
Again you are attributing to me what I didnot say. Where did I talk of all Kashmiris or all Muslims? I was talking of some Kashmiris and some Muslims, and this is clear if you read carefully.

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12-head #18
``How many time the same person in frustration adopts the first option.

If we want to maintain peace in this world --- has to take responsibility to SOME thing adressing that frustration. ``

I don`t understand your point, but ``Laaton ke bhoot batoon se nahin mante`` was exactly the philosophy practised by Taliban and Saddam towards their Muslim populations.

But there is no commensurate frustration about this, in people raising their voices in favor of these regimes simply for being `Muslim governments`.

There were no funds raised for suicide bombings against Taliban or Saddam for their brutality, no funds were raised for their victims. Those who now threaten suicide and other attacks in the name of defending these regimes didnot take responsibility when these regimes were committing excesses against Muslims.

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Studebaker:

Your first point is valid and I accept it.

the second point is not valid. Jaswant Singh released the hostages under duress. Personally I disagree with that step because it was the cowardly thing to do. Too often India has given under when faced by the bullet.

Regardless, the price in Afghanistan was the release of a few terrorists. A price that at worst could be paid.

The price of negotiating with Hizb or Pakistan or Lashkar is at best another religion based partition of India and at worst the green flag of Islam flying over our parliament. Both alterntives are unacceptable. Therefore there is no choice but to carry on fighting.

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stuka #14
``So Kasmiris made bad choices and there fore like children should be denied all choices??? ``

12-head has dishonestly imputed to me something I didnot say or think.

Let me attempt to answer my own question since the author is missing.

Perhaps the most burning issue in important parts of the `Muslim world` including the Arab world is one of sovereignty- starting from the lack of Palestinian sovereignty. In defence the sovereignty principle which is perceived under threat, even Muslim-on-Muslim misrule of the horrendous kind is acceptable.

In those regions on the edges of the Muslim world where Muslims have to `share` sovereignty, like S.Asia, an apparent contradiction arises.

Here while winning Muslim-over-Muslim sovereignty is considered by some to be the panecea for misgovernance, at the same time within the Muslim world, even worse misgovernance and oppression is found acceptable to uphold the principle of Muslim-over-Muslim sovereignty.

This apparent contradiction leads people like Imam Bukhari and some in J&K, to support the Taliban and Saddam regimes as `Muslim governments` under attack, while not protesting the horrendous excesses of either - and at the same time, judging their own local governments by different standards.

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Ref Simba #10

[What is the actual figure of Kashmiris dead so far ,70,000 or 30,000 ?

I am not talking of Muslims or Mujahdin only but Pundits & hindus too]

Tsk, tsk, tsk. You don`t seem to understand the Islamic viewpoint on shahadad. Or the rules for counting the dead. So here is a primer for you.

Only Muslims can die a martyr`s death.

Even if a Muslim is executed for capital crimes by a non-Muslim government, he is automatically a martyr.

Only Muslims are victimized by kaffir governments.

Muslims can never be oppressed by a Muslim government.

Kaffirs don`t count as humans so their deaths need not be included in any body counts. On the other hand, when international organizations include the kaffirs in the body counts, the devout Muslim repeats the numbers without mentioning the fact that the number includes kaffirs. This is done so that the number of the Muslim dead would look larger and Muslim sacrifices for their cause bigger.

Rape of kaffir women is to be counted under the previous rule.

Kaffir women are never raped by Muslims. They merely happen to be war booty approved by Al-Kitab.

Throwing hand grenades into crowded bazaars is an acceptable act of freedom struggle.

Killing kaffir women and children is an act of mercy since they no longer lead sinful lives (i.e., by not worshipping Allah).

Throwing acid into the faces of women for not wearing the burqa is mentioned approvingly somewhere in the Koran, Sunnah or the Hadiths. It is right next to the section on cutting off limbs for stealing and stoning adulterers to death.

If you have any doubts about these or any other rules, please visit fatwa-online.com and post your questions there. Maulvis with degrees from Al-Azhar University are ready to give out answers and guide the flock.

Still, some Kashmiris inspite of suffering under `oppression` took out demonstrations in support of both brutal regimes - which is rather puzzling. ``

So Kasmiris made bad choices and there fore like children should be denied all choices???

Umm, yes. If they can support oppression in other countries, why are they so desirous of liberty themselves?


``What about the most INTELLIGENT IITian govt of India .Foreign Minister Yaswant Singh made deal with Taleban to let go Murderer of Katial and hijacker of A.I. in 1999 dec. ``

A deal that was made under duress. You think it was fondness for Taliban that made Jaswant Singh do a deal? Is anyone holding a gun to the head of Kashmiris making them support Taliban and Saddam?

#11 by Studebaker on May 5, 2003 9:04pm PT

[In fact the same butcher of Baghdad Saddam Hussain has more backer in Delhi than in Islama Bad]

You guys are pissed off because both Saddam and Yasser Arafat have traditionally supported India`s position on Kashmir and not Pakistan`s. Just because you hate them doesn`t automatically mean we love them. But Saddam deserves respect at least for one reason: he was the most secular of all Arab leaders unlike the Saudis whose most famous exports after petroleum are the 19 Sep 11 hijackers and Wahabism.

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Sorry friend for because i am indian and giving my views regarding your fantastic story, The story is really nice. you have a great potential channel it in a positive way.. for betterment of the society.

Been a while since I been to chowk.... not a bad read, but just another of those justified terrorist stories... sorry being born Indian, can`t identify.

But Asif has potential, which is a heartening thing. Write baout ``nice`` things, and you`ll have all of chowk rooting fr you. Right guys? :))

``But how many Pakistanis have to die before they realize that we will not give up Kashmir``

......... that doesn`t sound a whole lot different from what a wild-eyed jihadi might say ......... you guys deserve each other ...... ``

Big difference.

1. Tomorrow if the nation decides, either by consensus or majority, to give up Kashmir, we will all fall in line.

2. We are defending what is ours. Unlike your wild eyed Jihadis, we are not interested in changing the world or exporting revolution. But that does not mean we will surrender and roll over dead.