The Saffron Autumn

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Ref Paigham #36

[But then hypocrite ,unfair & prejudiced Hindians (Hindutva Indians)have no problem preserving Karan Sing of the Gulab Singh dynasty because of Kashmir .Doesn`t it .?]

So, tell us exactly what the Indian government has done to PRESERVE Karan Singh? He lost his Privy Purse along with the 550+ other Rajas back in the late 60s. If he continues to live, should the Government of India kill him?

What a pinhead!

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Hey 12-Head. You were complaining somewhere about the Indian government not recognizing Tipu`s heirs. Well, I thought I would add to your list of complaints about non-recognition of former dynasties. You might already be aware of the trials and tribulations of the descendants of the various kings of France, Bulgaria, Austria (Austro-Hungarian empire), Romania, Greece, Italy, Yugoslavia, Russia, China, Egypt, Iraq and Iran. Here is another dynasty whose fall you can lament:


Korean prince leading vagabond`s existence, hoping for royal respect
BY SANG-HUN CHOE
Associated Press

SEOUL, South Korea - One of Korea`s last princes lives out of a two-seat van packed with books, laundry and an electric range. He used to sing at nightclubs for American GIs and sleeps in flophouses.

Yet he`s so proud of his blood line that he never sheds his clothes in a public bathhouse when others are around.

Now Yi Seok, 62, has launched a one-man crusade to restore the lost dignity of his disgraced Yi Dynasty family, which ruled the Korean Peninsula for 518 years until colonial Japan took over in 1910.

``If I die, there will be no one left to tell the stories of the last royal family,`` Yi says.

South Korea is proud of its heritage, which includes the invention of the Korean alphabet during the Yi Dynasty. Historical dramas about romance and bloody coups at the ancient royal court are a TV staple. At royal palaces in Seoul, tourists watch a changing of the royal guard and hear court-music performances.

LOST TO HISTORY

But few in South Korea know the names or whereabouts of relatives of the Yi Dynasty`s last king.

Koreans accuse the dynasty`s last rulers of incompetence and blame them for Korea`s humiliating 35-year subjugation to Japanese rule.

``I am aware of the criticism,`` Yi Seok says. ``But with all its achievements and failures, the royal family deserves better treatment.``

Although a few hard-core supporters demand that South Korea switch to a monarchy, Yi considers such demands unrealistic. Instead, he believes the government should let him live in a palace, ``at least as a tourist attraction.``

The government is not considering Yi`s request, citing public skepticism.

Yi Seok also wants to build a museum where people can learn about the royal court.

Four years ago, he established a ``National Federation for Preserving the Great Korean Royal Court`` -- an organization operating mainly out of his van. He runs a website and claims thousands of members who are asked to pay the equivalent of 83 cents a month.

A member recently wrote: ``Your Highness, I have always wondered about you. . . . Now that I know you are alive, I am brimming with tears of happiness.``

``Some people call me crying,`` Yi says. ``An 80-year-old man called me the other day, offering to come up to Seoul just to bow before me.``

Most are unaware of Yi`s campaign.

``I both feel sympathy and anger at the last king and his family,`` said Kim Jae-chun, a taxi driver. ``I understand why people do not want to think about the subject. It`s embarrassing history.``

The Yi Dynasty crumbled during the reign of Yi Seok`s grandfather, King Ko Jong, when great nations jockeyed for control of Korea. Rival court factions shifted to Chinese, Russian and Japanese forces and the intrigue led to the assassination of the queen by Japanese troops.

Of Ko Jong`s dozens of grandchildren, Yi Seok is the only grandson living in South Korea. All his elder brothers are dead. Two younger brothers run auto repair and liquor shops in the United States. He also has two sisters in the United States and three in South Korea.

President Syngman Rhee, who founded South Korea in 1948 after Korea`s liberation from Japanese colonial rule, let Lee Seok`s family live in one of the several royal palaces in Seoul, but confiscated its vast assets.

When the military rulers in the 1960s deprived Yi`s family of financial allowances, he worked as a disk jockey. In 1962, he began singing at night clubs, entertaining American GIs with such songs as I Left My Heart In San Francisco.

EARNING HIS KEEP

``I sang at every U.S. military base in South Korea. I was a cross between Andy Williams and Pat Boone,`` he says. `An aunt learned about this and she wept and lamented that a Korean prince became a `clown,` but I had to make a living.``

Yi Seok enjoyed national fame with a 1970s hit, A House of Doves, a melodic song about a happy family. But he was forced to emigrate to the United States when Maj. Gen. Chun Doo-hwan took power in a coup in 1979 and evicted Yi`s family from the royal palace.

Overstaying his American visa, Yi mowed lawns, cleaned swimming pools and worked as an armed guard in a liquor store in the Los Angeles area. After securing a green card, he ran his own liquor store.

He returned home in 1989.

Recently a sympathetic landlord let Yi Seok temporarily use a small office. Scattered about are unpacked boxes. Downstairs, music throbs from the ``Don`t Tell Mama`` night club.

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Completely randomly

Many Indians seem to feel that Pakistanis are underestimating the broader issues of nationhood and precedence which make India prefer a long running bloody conflict in Kashmir to allowing it to separate from India. I`m thinking that we also underestimate the broader issues behind Pakistan being very unwilling to give up on Kashmir. Would a Pakistani care to confirm/deny/correct me on this? Regards

#13 ``Tsk, tsk, tsk. You don`t seem to understand the Islamic viewpoint on shahadad. Or the rules for counting the dead. So here is a primer for you.
Only Muslims can die a martyr`s death.
Even if a Muslim is executed for capital crimes by a non-Muslim government, he is automatically a martyr. etc etc etc

well if that is your gripe - we can tie you to a cannon and lite the fuse - in effect canonizing you : )
Nice article. I guess it really is as simple as that - you just wake up one morning decide and next day gone.

Studebaker:

``.Since Palestine etc. do not affect Indians Hindus directly you have to only concentrate on Kashmir . ``


How many Hindus have you seen in UP collecting money for the Yahood? Forget about Palestine, have you seen Hindus collect money in India for Hindus in Fiji? No. We care about our nation, our country. Pakis bleed for Palestenians, though I have yet to meet an Arab who`s heart bleeds for Pakistan.

``Honestly judge the Kashmiris on the basis of its merit of case .One thing for sure is that Kashmir is NOT another state of India like Gujrat & U.P and stop comparing incidents there with incidents in Kashmir

If you think no hindu can live in Muslim majority areas i would disagree because 140 million Indian muslims can live as minority in India not b/c of any special privelege but by the fact that they have been doing so 1000 yrs and Pundits have been doing so hundreds of years too. ``

Studebaker, the very fact that you condole about Pandits reveal you are Indian. Indian Muslims, having lived amongst non Muslims, have become used to a pluralistic society so u think of Hindis as human.

But the case of Kashmir Valley stands as a clear cut example of the inability of a non Muslim minority to live amongst Muslims in any sort of dignity.

Studebaker: I must say it is a pleasure to interact with you when you take the time to write coherent posts. But your Kamala posts are compeletely whacko.

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pmishra2 #22
Check out Mr Isa Daudpota. His article reduces to these few lines : ``We will kill you so you must be friendly and agree to our demands. If you don`t agree to do as we say its because you are unfriendly and jingoistic. Oh - and US must pay us and build us this and that so that we stop wanting to kill you``

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Studebaker:

I guess the point you are making is that Kashmiri Muslims are not monolithic identity. Agreed. Do you however believe in the concept of a dominant discourse?

To give you an example, if I didn`t know better, I would think TAhmed and Urstruly belong to two different religions. Though they both profess to be Muslim, the philosophies and concepts they stress upon are diametrically opposed to each other. Now, within Islamic society, one view will ultimately prevail, not in an absolutist sense, but as a dominant discourse.

How should non Muslims then react?

#20 sadna

The general idea is that muslims have special rights to get agitated and start blowing themselves up and killing everyone in sight. This is somehow natural and OK. Their oppression is so severe (forget the tibetans, the East Timorese, the Kashmiri pandits, ...) that they cannot help themselves.

Overall it is an astounding argument, specially when made by educated people. One gets the feeling that people who argue like this (not a large fraction of all muslims, of course) are more like murderous children than adults.

12-head
Again you are attributing to me what I didnot say. Where did I talk of all Kashmiris or all Muslims? I was talking of some Kashmiris and some Muslims, and this is clear if you read carefully.

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12-head #18
``How many time the same person in frustration adopts the first option.

If we want to maintain peace in this world --- has to take responsibility to SOME thing adressing that frustration. ``

I don`t understand your point, but ``Laaton ke bhoot batoon se nahin mante`` was exactly the philosophy practised by Taliban and Saddam towards their Muslim populations.

But there is no commensurate frustration about this, in people raising their voices in favor of these regimes simply for being `Muslim governments`.

There were no funds raised for suicide bombings against Taliban or Saddam for their brutality, no funds were raised for their victims. Those who now threaten suicide and other attacks in the name of defending these regimes didnot take responsibility when these regimes were committing excesses against Muslims.

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Studebaker:

Your first point is valid and I accept it.

the second point is not valid. Jaswant Singh released the hostages under duress. Personally I disagree with that step because it was the cowardly thing to do. Too often India has given under when faced by the bullet.

Regardless, the price in Afghanistan was the release of a few terrorists. A price that at worst could be paid.

The price of negotiating with Hizb or Pakistan or Lashkar is at best another religion based partition of India and at worst the green flag of Islam flying over our parliament. Both alterntives are unacceptable. Therefore there is no choice but to carry on fighting.

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stuka #14
``So Kasmiris made bad choices and there fore like children should be denied all choices??? ``

12-head has dishonestly imputed to me something I didnot say or think.

Let me attempt to answer my own question since the author is missing.

Perhaps the most burning issue in important parts of the `Muslim world` including the Arab world is one of sovereignty- starting from the lack of Palestinian sovereignty. In defence the sovereignty principle which is perceived under threat, even Muslim-on-Muslim misrule of the horrendous kind is acceptable.

In those regions on the edges of the Muslim world where Muslims have to `share` sovereignty, like S.Asia, an apparent contradiction arises.

Here while winning Muslim-over-Muslim sovereignty is considered by some to be the panecea for misgovernance, at the same time within the Muslim world, even worse misgovernance and oppression is found acceptable to uphold the principle of Muslim-over-Muslim sovereignty.

This apparent contradiction leads people like Imam Bukhari and some in J&K, to support the Taliban and Saddam regimes as `Muslim governments` under attack, while not protesting the horrendous excesses of either - and at the same time, judging their own local governments by different standards.

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Ref Simba #10

[What is the actual figure of Kashmiris dead so far ,70,000 or 30,000 ?

I am not talking of Muslims or Mujahdin only but Pundits & hindus too]

Tsk, tsk, tsk. You don`t seem to understand the Islamic viewpoint on shahadad. Or the rules for counting the dead. So here is a primer for you.

Only Muslims can die a martyr`s death.

Even if a Muslim is executed for capital crimes by a non-Muslim government, he is automatically a martyr.

Only Muslims are victimized by kaffir governments.

Muslims can never be oppressed by a Muslim government.

Kaffirs don`t count as humans so their deaths need not be included in any body counts. On the other hand, when international organizations include the kaffirs in the body counts, the devout Muslim repeats the numbers without mentioning the fact that the number includes kaffirs. This is done so that the number of the Muslim dead would look larger and Muslim sacrifices for their cause bigger.

Rape of kaffir women is to be counted under the previous rule.

Kaffir women are never raped by Muslims. They merely happen to be war booty approved by Al-Kitab.

Throwing hand grenades into crowded bazaars is an acceptable act of freedom struggle.

Killing kaffir women and children is an act of mercy since they no longer lead sinful lives (i.e., by not worshipping Allah).

Throwing acid into the faces of women for not wearing the burqa is mentioned approvingly somewhere in the Koran, Sunnah or the Hadiths. It is right next to the section on cutting off limbs for stealing and stoning adulterers to death.

If you have any doubts about these or any other rules, please visit fatwa-online.com and post your questions there. Maulvis with degrees from Al-Azhar University are ready to give out answers and guide the flock.

Still, some Kashmiris inspite of suffering under `oppression` took out demonstrations in support of both brutal regimes - which is rather puzzling. ``

So Kasmiris made bad choices and there fore like children should be denied all choices???

Umm, yes. If they can support oppression in other countries, why are they so desirous of liberty themselves?


``What about the most INTELLIGENT IITian govt of India .Foreign Minister Yaswant Singh made deal with Taleban to let go Murderer of Katial and hijacker of A.I. in 1999 dec. ``

A deal that was made under duress. You think it was fondness for Taliban that made Jaswant Singh do a deal? Is anyone holding a gun to the head of Kashmiris making them support Taliban and Saddam?

#11 by Studebaker on May 5, 2003 9:04pm PT

[In fact the same butcher of Baghdad Saddam Hussain has more backer in Delhi than in Islama Bad]

You guys are pissed off because both Saddam and Yasser Arafat have traditionally supported India`s position on Kashmir and not Pakistan`s. Just because you hate them doesn`t automatically mean we love them. But Saddam deserves respect at least for one reason: he was the most secular of all Arab leaders unlike the Saudis whose most famous exports after petroleum are the 19 Sep 11 hijackers and Wahabism.

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Sorry friend for because i am indian and giving my views regarding your fantastic story, The story is really nice. you have a great potential channel it in a positive way.. for betterment of the society.

Been a while since I been to chowk.... not a bad read, but just another of those justified terrorist stories... sorry being born Indian, can`t identify.

But Asif has potential, which is a heartening thing. Write baout ``nice`` things, and you`ll have all of chowk rooting fr you. Right guys? :))

``But how many Pakistanis have to die before they realize that we will not give up Kashmir``

......... that doesn`t sound a whole lot different from what a wild-eyed jihadi might say ......... you guys deserve each other ...... ``

Big difference.

1. Tomorrow if the nation decides, either by consensus or majority, to give up Kashmir, we will all fall in line.

2. We are defending what is ours. Unlike your wild eyed Jihadis, we are not interested in changing the world or exporting revolution. But that does not mean we will surrender and roll over dead.

[quote]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How many more Kashmiris have to die before their valley is peaceful.
[end-quote]

Great question. Why not take a little tour of Pakistan, Britain and the Gulf states and ask this question? Why not meet some of the people who are raising $100M US PER YEAR for training ``freedom fighters``?

Please ask them: when a grenade is thrown in a kashmiri market and a 2 year-old is killed, is that freedom struggle? Please ask them how the murders of families of legislators, policeman and innocent bystanders is a form of freedom struggle?

Please ask: when 10 pilgrims are killed within Raghunath mandir, is that freedom struggle? Please ask them: when a community colludes in ethnic cleansing its minorities in Gujarat, it is called murder and genocide --- but when the same happens in Kashmir for the last 15 years, how is it a form of freedom struggle?

Good luck with your trip. Let me know if you need some funds. My advice would be purchase a bullet-proof vest and a good life insurance policy first.

Make love not war.....

For 50 Plus years we Desis have been used against one another.

Maybe, just maybe things are about to change.

Keep hoping.......


Ras

Just curious, about something, perhaps the author can shed some light. The Taliban`s regime granted no civic rights and ran zero growth economy, invited an alien army and foreign fighters to fight a civil war against fellow Afghans, while Saddam during his rule caused the deaths of a million-odd Iraqis in war and genocide. Still, some Kashmiris inspite of suffering under `oppression` took out demonstrations in support of both brutal regimes - which is rather puzzling.

stuka

``But how many Pakistanis have to die before they realize that we will not give up Kashmir``

......... that doesn`t sound a whole lot different from what a wild-eyed jihadi might say ......... you guys deserve each other ......

Typical Paki romanticism of Jihad.

This is the punch line..

``How many more Kashmiris have to die before their valley is peaceful.``

Answer: None. If they want to live in peace, they are welcome to.

But how many Pakistanis have to die before they realize that we will not give up Kashmir. How many Mullahs of the Lashkar e Tayyaba and the Hizbul Mujahideen need to die before they gove up on global jihad?

Do the Pakistanis need more reminders of how the throats of their co-nationalists were slit by Afghans after the fall of the Taliban to realize that they should mind their own business? Or maybe some random bombins in Karachi?

Cry for Pakistan before you start crying for Kashmir. Or you will cry for both.

Asif; you`ve got some great ideas but you need to develop them; things are moving too rapidly to register with the reader. The story needs to be fleshed out.

Aamir