Twilight Freedom

Farzana I have read you artical with keen intrest. Also have read some replies. People took this article in there own way. I the bignig I was also in doubt that you will have writen this article in same faminist way. But I am glad to read that it has been built up in a quie a natural way and you have been successfully saved to eshtablish as arthodox faminist. The question you have raised in you article are not even importan but also this is the right way on which men and women both think. Equallity is not that which is propogated by westren fiminist writers. Those desires you have been put in your article being a women quite possibly a man can wish these things from women parteners.Untill we cannot develop our own way of thinking we cannot establish harmony in our society. We have been doom to think on the lines of west which has developed on capitilist values. And where the Capital is only single value there hominity is not possible. Like many other movements faminism is also a way to earn money for west. Every society and culture has its own values and norms and the better way might be to establish the equality in own system of values. And try to remove the faults of the respective society. And try to think in orginal way. In this regard your artical was very though provoking.

``I am pushed on the defensive only because you men like watching a woman’s body. It is assumed that it is all you do, just as my ‘encouraging’ you becomes reason enough to berate me for letting down the cause. ``

I am sure that there are a lot of women out there who like to watch men`s bodies. Ever hear of Chip n Dales???

FZ, Godot, Slink, PM, etc,

Am continuing this discuss on Unplugged Politics thread. Hope to see you there!

re. Slink #4
``as i understand it, feminism is simply about championing female tendencies like compassion, empathy, understanding, love, sacrifice, pacifism etc over male ones like violence, confrontation, strife, competition etc. am i wrong?``

Probably. Too simplisitc. Too trapped in present circumstance. I don`t think it`s men who are solely responsile for characterizing the woman as potentially catty, Bltchy, scheming, patient for revenge, and outdoing hell`s fury when scorned.

re. ``...Feminists I know:
Lipstick feminists, no makeup but heel feminists, no makeup and married to a heel feminists, hijabi feminists, bald feminists, Orthodox and Jewish with a wig on feminist, crunchy granola feminists, started and run their own business feminists, veg. feminists, give me a steak on the side of that chicken feminists, poet feminists, microbiologist feminists, mother of 4 kids and has gone back to school at 56 feminists, 23 year old Puerto Rican, born again Pentecostal grad school feminists, lesbian houseowning feminists, African feminists working in ngos, feminists working in corporate drag...``
You forgot people who broaden terms so much they lose all significant meaning femisits.
:)

Re: Samina, #47

Samina,

Before you circle the globe and include women of all five continents using “feminism” as a base for them all, you first need to define what feminism is. Without a concrete definition of it, I don’t think I can apply it as a blanket to the entire planet as one-definition-fits-all.

Further, some of your very important statements are quite ambiguous, such as:

“The feminists in all of these hemispheres find that in many ways they are fighting similar issue and that they are linked in supporting each other in the respective responses to institutionalized, social, cultural, political and economic inequities.”

- What are those “similar issues”? Does a woman working as an investment banker on Wall Street who feels discriminated for getting into the “club” for being a woman have a similar issue as a South Asian woman living in a village, working on the field, and nursing seven children and who’s treated like dirt by men? How? What does a middle-class woman in Kansa City who spends half her time reading “People” and watching “Oprah” or a single African-American woman on welfare with three children in the Bronx have in common with a woman living in a village in interior Sind? And how are they “linked”?

“Western feminists tend to educate themselves on their biases because of this ongoing dialogue happening between the various schools of feminism/womanism.”

- The meaning of “tend” is lost on me in a deeper context. If Western women are inclined to learn of biases from other non-western women and have some kind of dialogue with them, how is it helping non-western women to achieve equality with men?

“many of these women are quite critical of the capitalist paradigm and how it socialises inequity.”

- How does capitalist system discriminate against women? How does this apply to non-western women? Are non-capitalist systems (or “local” systems) practiced in South Asia or elsewhere “more” equal to women?

“When you bring up bar burning and write that this action that took place in specific context and time and that it is incomprehensible to feminists globally”

- I did not say bra-burning was incomprehensible to all women (come to think of it, it probably is as many poor women don’t even know what a bra is.) I said given the milieu of western women, the idea of western feminism is incomprehensible to South Asian women and vice versa (and by South Asian women I did not mean women such as you or Farzana.)

“I wonder if you are keeping in mind a recent protest in which Nigerian women threatened to disrobe if their demands were not met. It was quite a standoff; the women wanted to change a policy that was affecting their community and they chose a device that would cause great shame in their community if they disrobed. It worked.”

- So did the 5,000 Australian women to protest the looming war against Iraq. Is it going to work as a factor? You did not elaborate on as to what policy change it was that the Nigerian women were demanding and got their way. How Many South Asian women you think would resort to a tactic like that to bring equality vis-a-vis South Asian men? You think this tactic would work for eliminating the stigma of honor-killing in Pakistan?

“my second question to you is, as a man, how do you support the struggle for literacy in Pakistan?”

- What do you exactly mean by “support”? And how is this question related to western feminism and its application to South Asian women?

“Your easy red herrings notwithstanding”

- I don’t know what you mean by that.

Godot,

1. Western, Eastern, African, Asian and Latin feminisms find ways of connecting that may not be obvious to the surface understanding. The feminists in all of these hemispheres find that in many ways they are fighting similar issue and that they are linked in supporting each other in the respective responses to institutionalized, social, cultural, political and economic inequities. In addition Western feminists tend to educate themselves on their biases because of this ongoing dialogue happening between the various schools of feminism/womanism. The feminists I know and work with in various disciplines are quite respectful and open to keeping cultural contexts in mind and challenging their own interpretations- and remember, that many of these women are quite critical of the capitalist paradigm and how it socialises inequity.

When you bring up bar burning and write that this action that took place in specific context and time and that it is incomprehensible to feminists globally, I wonder if you are keeping in mind a recent protest in which Nigerian women threatened to disrobe if their demands were not met. It was quite a standoff; the women wanted to change a policy that was affecting their community and they chose a device that would cause great shame in their community if they disrobed. It worked.

Now, how would you respond to that?

Your easy red herrings notwithstanding, my second question to you is, as a man, how do you support the struggle for literacy in Pakistan?

Re: Jawahara, #44

What you said about western feminism is precisely my point. What the West considers to be ``freedom`` may not be digestible to other cultures. Although I can give credit to Steinem and Friedman for being among the forerunners of the movement, I don`t think bra-burning is what non-western women are looking for. Being from that region, our focus should be the plight of the South Asian women. The Western idea of equality by burning bras is not exactly the idea of feminism of downtrodden, intentionally-kept-illiterate, and treated-as-chattels women of South Asia. Like the fourth dimension, the concept of Western feminism is a completely different dimension for the South Asian women; it requires a different, non-western approach to equality. It`s a monumental task.

Not one but two men, Jawahara! Are they patiently waiting for me to beat me up or stick it to me? In either case they`re sure to be disappointed when I get there.


Re: Farzana, #45

Wishful thinking? Maybe, maybe not!

Btw, loved your Excavating India piece. You`ve thrown a bone and now watching the stray dogs attack it. Wonderful!!! You are one pissed-off woman, and justifiably so, I must say.

sajni: some women may prefer to stay at home but the concept of `losers` is thrust on them.

godot: wishful thinking?

samina: good to see you keeping a vigil :)

Wish most of you had appeared earlier; this Board has been booted out...by me! But if anyone feels like keeping the discussion going or sharing anecdotal material, it would still be lovely. I might need it...

And thanks for the insights everyone.

Regards,
Farzana

Godot, somewhere there are two men patiently waiting for you. You might start making your way there.

As for feminism being passe...it is as passe as well, women. Yes, it has evolved and moved beyond the old guard of the Steinems and Friedans and it`s has been claimed and molded into other incarnations by other women who are looking for a voice to put into words what they feel.

I do have a problem with western feminism`s quest to ``bring`` freedom to other women. What kind of freedom? Do the women in question (the hot topic these days being muslim and middle eastern women) want that kind of freedom anyway? Having freedom of a different kind thrust upon you is in its own way as oppressive as not having any, exchanging one cultural hegemony for another.

True freedom (even just the freedom to make choices) stems from the realization that you want it, want it so badly that you can think and feel nothing else. And of course we all chart our freedoms and needs and wants and desires according to what we want.

There is tremendous and exciting work being done by feminists outside of America in their own countries and among african-american feminists within this country that I find fascinating.

That said, it was American (Western?) feminist work that has brought us this far. It is now, as Samina said, a mature enough field where we can criticize and disagree with it and still be feminists.

Farzana i agree with a lot of points you have made :) and you are right true feminism is about being able to make choices. i just feel that in the present times any woman who prefers to stay at home, in other words be a regular housewife is now looked down upon. i try to explain to people that that is also a choice therefore must be respected just as a woman with a career is respected. but no, people see a housewife as someone who is best described as a `looser` having no confidence, which is not true :) some women simply prefer to stay at home.

godot: men and women even today are not equal anywhere in the world, so wake up and smell the coffee. and for your info gloria stienem got married a couple of years ago, and she never posed nude for playboy, she went to work in one of playboy clubs in the 70`s or 60`s as a bunny waitress as an undercover reporter to see what goes on in these clubs, and found out that women were treated badly there, they were paid less, had to wear skin tight playboy bunny outfits , these outfits were so tight that some of the girls, infact Gloria herself would start to bleed by the end of the day, they would have rashes on thier waists and stomachs. and men in the clubs would harass them and the important men , you know the rich guys were also allowed by the club owners to take the girl, any girl home if they wanted to, and if the girl refused she was fired.

Jawahara,
Right on! It is imp. that we acknowledge that feminism has given us that privillege to explore different interpretations of feminism. And we need to remember that if it weren`t for those trailblazers with whom we disagree with in contemporary times-we`d have no credibility. It is a constantly expanding and intersecting dialogue. What I refuse to do is to claim that feminism is not relevant to every human being`s life.

Sajni,
Again, I`m struck by the pollyanna tone of your posts...its like you are not actually female, but the clever creation of the folks who brought us Mandani Sahib.

Urstruly,
See above. Have fun!

Pankaj,
Sadna I believe put it best when she noted that the front line of any hegemony confronting movement is intentionally militant as a tactical strategy. We know what we are doing, thank you.

Re: Farzana, #40

I should’ve known that I was a dead man jumping on a board graced by shandy, sammi, ferzoo and jawahara (sorry, jawahara, no nicky-nick for you yet, I suppose – or I may have missed it.)

As for the members of my gender, well, fyi, they don’t get “shriveled.” Like good old soldiers, they respectfully stay attention and erect and work tirelessly like a well-oiled machines till the very end. Kudos to Warren.

PS: Thank you for granting me the permission to get bored; sometimes it’s a privilege.

jawahara: ``being me`` is always the best, for no ism should walk all over individuality. But sometimes we all need the cocoon of family, friends and feminine bonding.

ana: interesting observation about Lalita Pawar; I had in fact once written about how the Bharatiya Naari was the real dominatrix. While we careerists were the obvious targets, it was that woman who twirled her chaabis and ruled the roost. And `pseudo feminists` is what others call us...we are just chilled out cats :)

godot: Now that you are on a board where a dead issue on a dead article is being discussed, you are dead too. Thanks for letting us ``carry on``...we give you the permission to get bored too.
Re. no intelligent person giving a damn about feminism in the 21st century because both genders are treated equally, do you mind looking at your own comment?
[Gloria Steinem is an old woman knitting somewhere in her rocking chair, gazing at her boobs in Playboy she posed long time ago (don`t want to speculate as to what they look like now.)]
Hah...if you care about equality please do make a mention about the possibility of Warren Beatty`s shriveled member as well...but no, he is the guy who can stand up against all odds :)

pankaj: I don`t know the reasons :)

urstruly: more like eent ka jawaab patthar se.

I remember I was in class 12 and wrote an essay, entitled, ``I Am a Woman Not a Feminist,`` and thought myself very clever and liberated and of course, tickled pink at calling myself a woman at 17.

In retrospect ,I was of course, reacting to the way I had heard the word used. To this day I meet women who are reaping the benefits of feminism in every way who act all coy and declare they are not feminists and do not agree with ``their`` agenda, without being aware of what the agenda(s) are.

Then, of course, arises the question of the WASP feminist and the decided slant that womens studies have. Each woman from each ethnic group and color has her own issues to deal with. There is now a schism between the academic, largely caucasian feminists and those among us who are dealing with issues outside of the WASP experience.

To me this a sign of new growth and maturation in the field. And of course, the freedom for us to embrace the labels or to denounce them, in favor of, I am just me.

Interesting article, Farzana.

Discussing a dead issue on a dead article. Feminism is a passe. It`s like a 60 year old hippy left over from the 60s. Gloria Steinem is an old woman knitting somewhere in her rocking chair, gazing at her boobs in Playboy she posed long time ago (don`t want to speculate as to what they look like now.) No intelligent person living in the twentyfirst century cares about feminsim anymore. For today`s men and women, both genders are equal. This is one boring board there ever was. But never mind! Carry on!!!