Twilight Freedom

Farzana I have read you artical with keen intrest. Also have read some replies. People took this article in there own way. I the bignig I was also in doubt that you will have writen this article in same faminist way. But I am glad to read that it has been built up in a quie a natural way and you have been successfully saved to eshtablish as arthodox faminist. The question you have raised in you article are not even importan but also this is the right way on which men and women both think. Equallity is not that which is propogated by westren fiminist writers. Those desires you have been put in your article being a women quite possibly a man can wish these things from women parteners.Untill we cannot develop our own way of thinking we cannot establish harmony in our society. We have been doom to think on the lines of west which has developed on capitilist values. And where the Capital is only single value there hominity is not possible. Like many other movements faminism is also a way to earn money for west. Every society and culture has its own values and norms and the better way might be to establish the equality in own system of values. And try to remove the faults of the respective society. And try to think in orginal way. In this regard your artical was very though provoking.

``I am pushed on the defensive only because you men like watching a woman’s body. It is assumed that it is all you do, just as my ‘encouraging’ you becomes reason enough to berate me for letting down the cause. ``

I am sure that there are a lot of women out there who like to watch men`s bodies. Ever hear of Chip n Dales???

FZ, Godot, Slink, PM, etc,

Am continuing this discuss on Unplugged Politics thread. Hope to see you there!

re. Slink #4
``as i understand it, feminism is simply about championing female tendencies like compassion, empathy, understanding, love, sacrifice, pacifism etc over male ones like violence, confrontation, strife, competition etc. am i wrong?``

Probably. Too simplisitc. Too trapped in present circumstance. I don`t think it`s men who are solely responsile for characterizing the woman as potentially catty, Bltchy, scheming, patient for revenge, and outdoing hell`s fury when scorned.

re. ``...Feminists I know:
Lipstick feminists, no makeup but heel feminists, no makeup and married to a heel feminists, hijabi feminists, bald feminists, Orthodox and Jewish with a wig on feminist, crunchy granola feminists, started and run their own business feminists, veg. feminists, give me a steak on the side of that chicken feminists, poet feminists, microbiologist feminists, mother of 4 kids and has gone back to school at 56 feminists, 23 year old Puerto Rican, born again Pentecostal grad school feminists, lesbian houseowning feminists, African feminists working in ngos, feminists working in corporate drag...``
You forgot people who broaden terms so much they lose all significant meaning femisits.
:)

Re: Samina, #47

Samina,

Before you circle the globe and include women of all five continents using “feminism” as a base for them all, you first need to define what feminism is. Without a concrete definition of it, I don’t think I can apply it as a blanket to the entire planet as one-definition-fits-all.

Further, some of your very important statements are quite ambiguous, such as:

“The feminists in all of these hemispheres find that in many ways they are fighting similar issue and that they are linked in supporting each other in the respective responses to institutionalized, social, cultural, political and economic inequities.”

- What are those “similar issues”? Does a woman working as an investment banker on Wall Street who feels discriminated for getting into the “club” for being a woman have a similar issue as a South Asian woman living in a village, working on the field, and nursing seven children and who’s treated like dirt by men? How? What does a middle-class woman in Kansa City who spends half her time reading “People” and watching “Oprah” or a single African-American woman on welfare with three children in the Bronx have in common with a woman living in a village in interior Sind? And how are they “linked”?

“Western feminists tend to educate themselves on their biases because of this ongoing dialogue happening between the various schools of feminism/womanism.”

- The meaning of “tend” is lost on me in a deeper context. If Western women are inclined to learn of biases from other non-western women and have some kind of dialogue with them, how is it helping non-western women to achieve equality with men?

“many of these women are quite critical of the capitalist paradigm and how it socialises inequity.”

- How does capitalist system discriminate against women? How does this apply to non-western women? Are non-capitalist systems (or “local” systems) practiced in South Asia or elsewhere “more” equal to women?

“When you bring up bar burning and write that this action that took place in specific context and time and that it is incomprehensible to feminists globally”

- I did not say bra-burning was incomprehensible to all women (come to think of it, it probably is as many poor women don’t even know what a bra is.) I said given the milieu of western women, the idea of western feminism is incomprehensible to South Asian women and vice versa (and by South Asian women I did not mean women such as you or Farzana.)

“I wonder if you are keeping in mind a recent protest in which Nigerian women threatened to disrobe if their demands were not met. It was quite a standoff; the women wanted to change a policy that was affecting their community and they chose a device that would cause great shame in their community if they disrobed. It worked.”

- So did the 5,000 Australian women to protest the looming war against Iraq. Is it going to work as a factor? You did not elaborate on as to what policy change it was that the Nigerian women were demanding and got their way. How Many South Asian women you think would resort to a tactic like that to bring equality vis-a-vis South Asian men? You think this tactic would work for eliminating the stigma of honor-killing in Pakistan?

“my second question to you is, as a man, how do you support the struggle for literacy in Pakistan?”

- What do you exactly mean by “support”? And how is this question related to western feminism and its application to South Asian women?

“Your easy red herrings notwithstanding”

- I don’t know what you mean by that.

Godot,

1. Western, Eastern, African, Asian and Latin feminisms find ways of connecting that may not be obvious to the surface understanding. The feminists in all of these hemispheres find that in many ways they are fighting similar issue and that they are linked in supporting each other in the respective responses to institutionalized, social, cultural, political and economic inequities. In addition Western feminists tend to educate themselves on their biases because of this ongoing dialogue happening between the various schools of feminism/womanism. The feminists I know and work with in various disciplines are quite respectful and open to keeping cultural contexts in mind and challenging their own interpretations- and remember, that many of these women are quite critical of the capitalist paradigm and how it socialises inequity.

When you bring up bar burning and write that this action that took place in specific context and time and that it is incomprehensible to feminists globally, I wonder if you are keeping in mind a recent protest in which Nigerian women threatened to disrobe if their demands were not met. It was quite a standoff; the women wanted to change a policy that was affecting their community and they chose a device that would cause great shame in their community if they disrobed. It worked.

Now, how would you respond to that?

Your easy red herrings notwithstanding, my second question to you is, as a man, how do you support the struggle for literacy in Pakistan?

Re: Jawahara, #44

What you said about western feminism is precisely my point. What the West considers to be ``freedom`` may not be digestible to other cultures. Although I can give credit to Steinem and Friedman for being among the forerunners of the movement, I don`t think bra-burning is what non-western women are looking for. Being from that region, our focus should be the plight of the South Asian women. The Western idea of equality by burning bras is not exactly the idea of feminism of downtrodden, intentionally-kept-illiterate, and treated-as-chattels women of South Asia. Like the fourth dimension, the concept of Western feminism is a completely different dimension for the South Asian women; it requires a different, non-western approach to equality. It`s a monumental task.

Not one but two men, Jawahara! Are they patiently waiting for me to beat me up or stick it to me? In either case they`re sure to be disappointed when I get there.


Re: Farzana, #45

Wishful thinking? Maybe, maybe not!

Btw, loved your Excavating India piece. You`ve thrown a bone and now watching the stray dogs attack it. Wonderful!!! You are one pissed-off woman, and justifiably so, I must say.

sajni: some women may prefer to stay at home but the concept of `losers` is thrust on them.

godot: wishful thinking?

samina: good to see you keeping a vigil :)

Wish most of you had appeared earlier; this Board has been booted out...by me! But if anyone feels like keeping the discussion going or sharing anecdotal material, it would still be lovely. I might need it...

And thanks for the insights everyone.

Regards,
Farzana

Godot, somewhere there are two men patiently waiting for you. You might start making your way there.

As for feminism being passe...it is as passe as well, women. Yes, it has evolved and moved beyond the old guard of the Steinems and Friedans and it`s has been claimed and molded into other incarnations by other women who are looking for a voice to put into words what they feel.

I do have a problem with western feminism`s quest to ``bring`` freedom to other women. What kind of freedom? Do the women in question (the hot topic these days being muslim and middle eastern women) want that kind of freedom anyway? Having freedom of a different kind thrust upon you is in its own way as oppressive as not having any, exchanging one cultural hegemony for another.

True freedom (even just the freedom to make choices) stems from the realization that you want it, want it so badly that you can think and feel nothing else. And of course we all chart our freedoms and needs and wants and desires according to what we want.

There is tremendous and exciting work being done by feminists outside of America in their own countries and among african-american feminists within this country that I find fascinating.

That said, it was American (Western?) feminist work that has brought us this far. It is now, as Samina said, a mature enough field where we can criticize and disagree with it and still be feminists.

Farzana i agree with a lot of points you have made :) and you are right true feminism is about being able to make choices. i just feel that in the present times any woman who prefers to stay at home, in other words be a regular housewife is now looked down upon. i try to explain to people that that is also a choice therefore must be respected just as a woman with a career is respected. but no, people see a housewife as someone who is best described as a `looser` having no confidence, which is not true :) some women simply prefer to stay at home.

godot: men and women even today are not equal anywhere in the world, so wake up and smell the coffee. and for your info gloria stienem got married a couple of years ago, and she never posed nude for playboy, she went to work in one of playboy clubs in the 70`s or 60`s as a bunny waitress as an undercover reporter to see what goes on in these clubs, and found out that women were treated badly there, they were paid less, had to wear skin tight playboy bunny outfits , these outfits were so tight that some of the girls, infact Gloria herself would start to bleed by the end of the day, they would have rashes on thier waists and stomachs. and men in the clubs would harass them and the important men , you know the rich guys were also allowed by the club owners to take the girl, any girl home if they wanted to, and if the girl refused she was fired.

Jawahara,
Right on! It is imp. that we acknowledge that feminism has given us that privillege to explore different interpretations of feminism. And we need to remember that if it weren`t for those trailblazers with whom we disagree with in contemporary times-we`d have no credibility. It is a constantly expanding and intersecting dialogue. What I refuse to do is to claim that feminism is not relevant to every human being`s life.

Sajni,
Again, I`m struck by the pollyanna tone of your posts...its like you are not actually female, but the clever creation of the folks who brought us Mandani Sahib.

Urstruly,
See above. Have fun!

Pankaj,
Sadna I believe put it best when she noted that the front line of any hegemony confronting movement is intentionally militant as a tactical strategy. We know what we are doing, thank you.

Re: Farzana, #40

I should’ve known that I was a dead man jumping on a board graced by shandy, sammi, ferzoo and jawahara (sorry, jawahara, no nicky-nick for you yet, I suppose – or I may have missed it.)

As for the members of my gender, well, fyi, they don’t get “shriveled.” Like good old soldiers, they respectfully stay attention and erect and work tirelessly like a well-oiled machines till the very end. Kudos to Warren.

PS: Thank you for granting me the permission to get bored; sometimes it’s a privilege.

jawahara: ``being me`` is always the best, for no ism should walk all over individuality. But sometimes we all need the cocoon of family, friends and feminine bonding.

ana: interesting observation about Lalita Pawar; I had in fact once written about how the Bharatiya Naari was the real dominatrix. While we careerists were the obvious targets, it was that woman who twirled her chaabis and ruled the roost. And `pseudo feminists` is what others call us...we are just chilled out cats :)

godot: Now that you are on a board where a dead issue on a dead article is being discussed, you are dead too. Thanks for letting us ``carry on``...we give you the permission to get bored too.
Re. no intelligent person giving a damn about feminism in the 21st century because both genders are treated equally, do you mind looking at your own comment?
[Gloria Steinem is an old woman knitting somewhere in her rocking chair, gazing at her boobs in Playboy she posed long time ago (don`t want to speculate as to what they look like now.)]
Hah...if you care about equality please do make a mention about the possibility of Warren Beatty`s shriveled member as well...but no, he is the guy who can stand up against all odds :)

pankaj: I don`t know the reasons :)

urstruly: more like eent ka jawaab patthar se.

I remember I was in class 12 and wrote an essay, entitled, ``I Am a Woman Not a Feminist,`` and thought myself very clever and liberated and of course, tickled pink at calling myself a woman at 17.

In retrospect ,I was of course, reacting to the way I had heard the word used. To this day I meet women who are reaping the benefits of feminism in every way who act all coy and declare they are not feminists and do not agree with ``their`` agenda, without being aware of what the agenda(s) are.

Then, of course, arises the question of the WASP feminist and the decided slant that womens studies have. Each woman from each ethnic group and color has her own issues to deal with. There is now a schism between the academic, largely caucasian feminists and those among us who are dealing with issues outside of the WASP experience.

To me this a sign of new growth and maturation in the field. And of course, the freedom for us to embrace the labels or to denounce them, in favor of, I am just me.

Interesting article, Farzana.

Discussing a dead issue on a dead article. Feminism is a passe. It`s like a 60 year old hippy left over from the 60s. Gloria Steinem is an old woman knitting somewhere in her rocking chair, gazing at her boobs in Playboy she posed long time ago (don`t want to speculate as to what they look like now.) No intelligent person living in the twentyfirst century cares about feminsim anymore. For today`s men and women, both genders are equal. This is one boring board there ever was. But never mind! Carry on!!!

Farzoo,
finally i make it here after what seems like weeks. this particular `-ism` like a lot of `-isms` is a tough one to grapple with and i`ve done my share of grappling. As I was reading this, I couldn`t help but think of Mr. and Mrs. 55, woh yaad hay na, the awful role Lalita Pawar took on of being the `feminist`.
In the end, as you yourself ask, does it really matter? The lesbians think feminism should mean something, the marxists something completely different, the western feminists more often than not have tried to impose something they call a `universal ideology` on women in Asia and Africa. Feminists have male partners and children, others may want to, but their independence turns many men off....kya kaha jaye? In the final analysis, it doesn`t matter whether you are a feminist or not...what matters i guess is how you`ve lived your life, what you`ve stood up for (or against), more encompassing than limiting. Am I not a feminist because I oppose abortion? I would hope that`s not the case, but like I said, I`ve grappled with this issue a long long time.
am tired and not making any sense...but lovely to read you as always!
love,
a pseudo feminist.

Farzana

``Debonair and Fantasy...I think Deb is better; the articles are more interesting :) ``

I choose to disagree... for the reaosns that you probably know :-)

Urstruly: just meet me outside :)

Hey that is what bullys tell others. No one ever told me that before cuz, (I ashamedly admit now), it was me all along telling others to meet me outside. jaisi karni vaisi bharni

dialogue: How can you equate feminism with mullahism? The latter is about control, the former about freedom. And what do you mean by skewed perspective? Most women can think and see straight, which is why they get into trouble.

sajni: your posts in fact reveal the conflicts inherent in any movement. But your first post lays the blame on feminists for putting women out in the cruel world of work. I don`t agree there. If I may make personal references, I think that my mother, who does not work outside, is a feminist and my late grandma was an even bigger feminist. Because they defined the parameters of what could be done within the roles THEY had circumscribed for themselves. We all have our limitations, but taking the responsibility for what we can and cannot do reveals how independent we are; laying the blame on fellow travellers won`t take us very far.
PS: appreciate your input, though.

Urstruly: just meet me outside :)

pankaj: Between ``sane`` and ``pesky``, women do travel a wide spectrum, and both these qualties become evident based on the stimuli before them. I agree that issues of literacy and debunking stereotypes are important, but there are several layers for women on top to deal with.
Re. Debonair and Fantasy...I think Deb is better; the articles are more interesting :)

Dilshad: Whatever it is you were saying sounded like fun...lunacy, loneliness, love are all aspects of seeking.

pakfin: ``Does feminism mean that a woman loses her feminity?`` Does a sensitive man lose his virility? The answer, my friend, is blowin` in the wind...tell me when you catch it :)

Ras: Thanks! Debonair is as debonair does...

Now this article is beginning to make sense. I would like to see the feminist perspective on the issues raised in post #26 & #31. Please try to avoid quoting Western feminists, thank you.

sajni#31

The comment was made in the context of males deciding what their wives should do. If she chooses to stay at home, it is her prerogative. I was only opposing thrusting of a particular alternative upon her by her husband or his family. As a personal observation, however, I have seen that most of the well educated women ( at least in India) prefer to do some work else they feel that their educational qualifications were wasted. Moreover, in nuclear families there is not enough work to keep oneself occupied for the whole day. So cultivating some hobby or working part time in a field of interest may also serve to overcome the sheer boredom of having to spend the entire day alone. Note that these are purely subjective opinions and I am not generalizing.

#28: ` It is important for woman to work to gain confidence in her abilities and realize her self-worth. Males may find confident and self assured females to be ``cooler`` as a pleasant surprise`

so does the above comment made by one of fellow chowky means that the only way to feel confident is when women work in a professional job???? why can`t a woman feel good about herself if she works at home, is a mother, a wife??? whats wrong with that. and then again the last sentence implies that women should work because ``males find women who work `cooler` which cooler is that `water cooler` why should women always care about what men find cooler or not??????

RE: Farzana #7

Very much a compliment

from one who cannot claim to be ``Debonair``.


Ras

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The feminist movement should take up issues relevant to the subcontinental females such as,

1) Promotion of literacy amongst the rural female population. It is a known fact that population control and the overall adult literacy is a very strong function of the female literacy.

2) Subcontinental males will have to rid themselves of the ``ghar kee bahu baahar kaam nahin karegee`` mentality. It is important for woman to work to gain confidence in her abilities and realize her self-worth. Males may find confident and self assured females to be ``cooler`` as a pleasant surprise.

However, the confrontationist attitude of some pesky feminists needs to balanced by more sane women. But let me say this to the credit of the Indian feminist movements that they have by and large steered clear of everything-male-is-bad and we-are-victims mentality. But then, most of the feminist movements in India have somehow frittered their initial energy in useless kity parties. They are not ready to go out and do the groundwork for bringing any constructive change in the plight of the women at large. This may not be true for all feminists though.


PS BTW, which is better? Debonair or Fantasy. Any opinions ???

Does being a feminist mean that a woman loses her feminity?

feminism is definately a dirty word today, and i have known very few people who would be proud to be called `feminists` and there is a reason for that. feminists have done nothing but create more trouble for us women out there. they have taken, snatched women out of thier comfortable and warm and loving homes and flung them out the window in a cold, mean and hard world of work. now what is a woman to do these days, where is she to go???? not every woman is talented enough to be a doctor or a lawyer is she??? so women who are not that intelligent become waitresses or end up in other not very respectable jobs such as `escort services` and the like so that they can be `independent` since men have given up thier responsiblity toward taking care of thier wives or daughters, atleast most of the men in the west, but soon it might happen in pakistan as well. many women have been disappointed with feminism and what it has to offer. there is even more pressure to look good for a woman these days, she cant even get a job if she does not fit the strict standards of beauty set by beauty magazines .i.e cosmopolitan etc etc. by throwing women out in the cold , today women have to more than ever rely on thier looks to get a job or to get a man for that matter, is this what feminism has achieved for us????

many women are disaapointed and that is why `feminism` has become a dirty word today, women are simply just too ashamed of it. we should fight for human rights and respect the differences between the nature of a man and woman, and not fight what is natural otheriwse we will end up in a big mess not that we haven`t already.

work and all the independence that comes with it is not all that it is cracked up tp be. Getting to the top is difficult. Once she arrives, the treadmill accelerates. The higher up she goes, the less personal power a woman has for enjoying her life. Experience, competition, high-intensity drive in the cold, cold world makes housewifery look cool by comparison.

A growing number of women want a different kind of power in their lives, power to control their time, to feel safe and to reduce tension. They want to enjoy the civilized aesthetic, not the windowless rooms in a high-rise office tower that aspiring bankers, lawyers and editors live in on the way up.

Women understand well the difficulty of finding a good man. There`s always a new generation of nubile young women coming on. They listen closely to the ticking of their biological clocks as they watch their older sisters struggling to get pregnant. They dread confronting the deadline of fertility. not every women wants a job or career or whatever, feminists think that they do, which is not true at all. feminism is an elitist ideology, it suits the rich women. many poor women or women who are happy to stay at home, and protected from the outside world, have sufffered because of feminism. such women have no one to protect them, love them or care for them.

You can hear a woman`s yearning expressed plaintively by Gwen Stefani, the pink-haired sultry songbird of the punk-pop group No Doubt: ``I always thought I`d be a mom,`` she laments with piercing lyricism on her newest album:

``How`d I get so faithful to my freedom?

A selfish kind of life. . .

When all I ever wanted was the simple things . . .

A simple kind of life.``

What would happen if one woman told the truth about her life?
The world would split open. ---Muriel Rukeyser

Ansari Sahib,

Hey mister...whats so funny?

:)

``We are not victims; men are...of their little minds.``

You`ve become victim of what you fight most - the most primitive of
sexist hypocrites...

FZ,
You are def. on the list that will follow :)

Most men have a great admiration, fascination, obsession or even fetish for thinking, writing and an anaylyzing women. This drastically adds to their personality and has a mutipliar effect on their weightage as a person. Such women`s relationship with man is based on a far sounder, solid and stable factors.

So there is absolutely nothing lost by the intellectual pursuits which give an innate satisfaction of self-actualization. And such an endeavour pretty much covers the loss in terms of minor elements such as `sagging`.

`sagging` itself is a uni-sex issue and applies to men as well.

``...Feminists I know:
Lipstick feminists, no makeup but heel feminists, no makeup and married to a heel feminists, hijabi feminists, bald feminists, Orthodox and Jewish with a wig on feminist, crunchy granola feminists, started and run their own business feminists, veg. feminists, give me a steak on the side of that chicken feminists, poet feminists, microbiologist feminists, mother of 4 kids and has gone back to school at 56 feminists, 23 year old Puerto Rican, born again Pentecostal grad school feminists, lesbian houseowning feminists, African feminists working in ngos, feminists working in corporate drag...``

LOL!

Replying Slink #4

``as i understand it, feminism is simply about championing female tendencies like compassion, empathy, understanding, love, sacrifice, pacifism etc over male ones like violence, confrontation, strife, competition etc. am i wrong? who decides what ideal feminism is?``

behain, who is d ecide what ideal male/female is? genderingo ftendenciesi sup to you.

Salaam!

ferz:

...not `every`...just a select few;)

...t

nazarhayatkhan (#5):
[The feminist move is required in the West because the woman is constantly under pressure and is over worked. She works during the day to make that extra buck, has also to look after her home and children and finally has the obligation to fulfil her congugal rights at night.

And the men are very fussy about their physical state.

The South Asian women have the best of both worlds. They do not want to be freed. The man earns. She relaxes at home. Their is plenty of help at hand to do the chores.

And the men are not very fussy about their physical state. ]

Only at night?? The S.Asian woman has to be ready at all times, to increase the population in the subcontinent. And why restrict feminism only to being able to balance work and home? Then what about the wild cats in the jungle who kill while their `shauhars` sit back and eat? Who says we do not wish to be freed? I have agreed that there is help at home, but that is not to `relax`.

And who cares whether the men are fussy or not about the `physical state`. We are. About ours and that of our men.

freesoul (#10):
[Yes, men like to check out women because they want to spread their seeds. But when we have done that and are recreating the lost seeds within (that small window of time), we do like to appreciate intellectual worth of our beloved one. Any objection?]

None whatsoever...in fact it would be rather nice if men `checked out` women without worrying about spreading their seeds. This is anti-feminist. Man surveys woman, finds her attractive, thinks, gee, this looks like something that can help me make another ME...and then when his stuff is cooking, he starts thinking of the wonder machine that is the microwave-woman.

We are not victims; men are...of their little minds.

aamir (#6):
I am a bit worried about the ``cool kid``. Could this be a whitewash job? We had to suffer through something like this in the Ameena case i Hyderabad, India. But yes, the fact must be highlighted that a woman can add clauses in the nikaahnama, which most people are unaware of.

temp:
You, a ``likeable mcp``? After you say you do the dishes, get into a discourse about feminism and call every woman/girl you know `yaar`? Define MCP? I have decided that you are a feminist, and that is where the matter ends :)

Baaki I have said a lot in my post.

samina:
Will wait, but this might not be where it is supposed to be! Loved your `feminists I know` list, but you kept me out :( never mind...we shall prevail and rave and rant...aha...perhaps that is what I am??!

Feminism seems somewhat like Mullah ism. The first and fundamental commonality is that both are extreme and tilted views of life - not without reason but tilted non the less. Those who support tilted views tend to lose the ability to think straight, Mullah or Feminists or some other genre. If you are wearing green shades, everything seems green.

Rights abuse, wherever it happens, very rarely discriminates based on gender. The intensity and magnitude of abuse may differ. The common people, stomach-hungry because they have no food and soul-hungry hurt because they have no respect/love act in a manner which is inconsistent with humans. And instead of fixing the root cause of this, we tend to propose tilted ideas as solutions. But extreme views is what caused these troubles in the first place.

The solution may lie elsewhere? We may see that wen we take off our shades!!

What is so wrong with ``men like watching a woman’s body``? Most men can appreciate the brains, just as well ;-)

Feminism seems somewhat like Mullah ism. The first and fundamental commonality is that both are extreme and tilted views of life - not without reason but tilted non the less. Those who support tilted views tend to lose the ability to think straight, Mullah or Feminists or some other genre. If you are wearing green shades, everything seems green.

Rights abuse, wherever it happens, very rarely discriminates based on gender. The intensity and magnitude of abuse may differ. The common people, stomach-hungry because they have no food and soul-hungry hurt because they have no respect/love act in a manner which is inconsistent with humans. And instead of fixing the root cause of this, we tend to propose tilted ideas as solutions. But extreme views is what caused these troubles in the first place.

The solution may lie elsewhere? We may see that wen we take off our shades!!

What is so wrong with ``men like watching a woman’s body``? Most men can appreciate the brains, just as well ;-)

Have to say this is the most enjoyable discussion I`ve had in a while...

Chowk Editors,
Please don`t push this board into the old articles section too quicky; theres a lot to be discussed here. Thanks!

FV,

I agree and I dont agree!

re: Bill
Actually, no-one round here gives two tosses...Hillary is perfectly content being a wishy washy and annoying senator over here in New York, and Bill seems to be off of his lease...the only peep I heard around here lately was when Bill was on a newsshow called 60 minutes and was debating Bob Dole (ex. Sen, ran for the preseidency) the other night and in one of his replies the average viewer heard 5 ideas in a row. Sleazy he may be, but a himbo he aint. After the intellectual bread and water we`ve been getting from Mr. Bush Jr., we were ready to forgive all....granted, if he were a himbo and sleazy we wouldnt be having this conversation :)...
But, I`d like to get back to you on the gender and creativity/productivity/etc in relationships issue tom or Wed., and would love to continue this in a not too rushed manner ...

Shandana,
Whats that James Brown song; ``Its your thing/do what you want to do/I aint telling you/who to sock it to...
Feminists I know:
Lipstick feminists, no makeup but heel feminists, no makeup and married to a heel feminists, hijabi feminists, bald feminists, Orthodox and Jewish with a wig on feminist, crunchy granola feminists, started and run their own business feminists, veg. feminists, give me a steak on the side of that chicken feminists, poet feminists, microbiologist feminists, mother of 4 kids and has gone back to school at 56 feminists, 23 year old Puerto Rican, born again Pentecostal grad school feminists, lesbian houseowning feminists, African feminists working in ngos, feminists working in corporate drag...
there is most certainly a brilliant writer who models feminist space open, hain na? Is Alex Wek considered a feminist`s model more than the next model?
re: feminist positions, will answer tom or Wed.; feeling too good right now with this discourse given that FV has raised the bar... :)

ferzi:

being a somewhat likeable mcp must confess never had to publicly ponder over issues raised by feminist of different hues…therefore here is my light-weight musing…;)

…feminists will have issues and will have to define them (for themselves and for others) in comparison to the male behaviour and attitudes…and their (men`s) lot is suspect in third world itself...which leads to a double whammy...

(am not familiar with the layout of debonair...but here at chowk perhaps you should have offered your definition of feminism)

shandy: you write “as i understand it, feminism is simply about championing female tendencies like compassion, empathy, understanding, love, sacrifice, pacifism etc over male ones like violence, confrontation, strife, competition etc. am i wrong?”

...well, you could be right, yours is highly personal defintion…the ones i have encountered in their most simplistic sense would be

feminism:

---Belief in the socio-cultural, political, and economic equality of the sexes and the movement organized around this belief.

or

---the belief that women should be allowed the same rights, power and chances as men and be treated in the same way, or the set of activities intended to achieve this state

(back to ferz)

…perhaps we (am a journeyman in most righteous struggles) should start from a uniform definition and then find our individual interpretations and nuances…i would not isolate, differentiate or demean the struggles of the ordinary desi women and the educated desi women…

…and this definition should be open to interpretation in different parts of the world…not all men….or their societies…are (created) equal!…

...some more digressions…

…in a way as i have said above not all men…nor all societies are ‘equal’…hence the needs for UN declaration of human rights…and in a way…the feminist struggles is vis a vis men…in their immediate domain (countries) as well as universal…

sammi:

“And who the heck does the dishes after dinner?”

…you will be surprised when you break bread with us…there is a neat division of labour in our household…M does the cooking i do the dishes…specially when we have guests…much to the consternation of that endangered species called desi males…

bspnd,

t

Okay…here we go…
I was asked to do this column for ‘Debonair’, an Indian version of ‘Playboy’. It has some of the best writers and the most respected people are featured in it. The first installment as indeed the column is of a serious nature, yet I started getting the jitters. How could my byline appear in a magazine where there were pictures of topless women? So many thoughts were running through my head…so I decided to put them down. Which is what this is about…

I had earlier done an ‘agony’ column for a similar magazine and my feminist friends had reacted badly to it. My argument was that if I could, through my replies, make men see things from the changing perspective of today’s woman, it would be a step forward. I kept at it and the feedback I got was heartening. However, I was invited for a TV panel discussion as the ‘opposite’, almost ‘pro male’ point of view; the other two were editors of women’s magazines, and what I found ironical was that while one of them started the beauty contests where women were paraded as objects, the other blatantly exploited emotionally scarred women to ‘bare their soul’. I opted out as I was the ‘other’ but not as the TV channel people envisaged.

shandana:
[as i understand it, feminism is simply about championing female tendencies like compassion, empathy, understanding, love,
sacrifice, pacifism etc over male ones like violence, confrontation, strife, competition etc. am i wrong? who decides what ideal feminism is?]

No one can decide on an ideal, though every ideology does strive for a certain path to follow. There may be a standard version of machismo because it is behaviour, but feminism is essentially internalised much as humanism is. I agree with you in your definition, but there may be many who might not. It depends to a great degree on our environment, upbringing and the values we decide to make our own based on past experiences and ability to conceptualise new ones.

When your friend thought you were letting down the cause by modeling, she was going by the baggage she carried. We must also remember that it is male patterns of behaviour that often decide such things. I was once sitting with an editor discussing a serious issue when he suddenly decided to make a silly comment, “Hey, what colour is that nail polish you are wearing…violet or pink?” What made it worse was when a male writer entered the room and handed the Ed a chocolate bar (yes! “Your favourite, sir”) and he was made to feel like an authority on the subject we were discussing, although he had managed to sneak into the field by playing the guy from nowhere.

And then there are the readers. You could be just screwing up Narendra Modi’s politics and it is assumed you must be a tigress in bed…yes, I get such letters. I have given these examples, and they are just the tip of the iceberg, to highlight how and why there cannot be an ideal feminism. For, there will be many women who might indeed say that there is no need to discuss such topics at all; they are private matters. I think they are afraid of facing up to the fact that having found a voice through someone else, their expectations might increase, not to be met.

Like when a very close friend of mine told me reluctantly that when her boyfriend returned home, she liked to wash his feet in a tub of warm water. I had a feeling she was testing me. She was surprised when I told her I was sure he did something special for her too. “Yes, he massages my feet,” she said. Now if these two have a foot fetish and are happy with it, why must it make anyone hot and bothered? But yes, I would never state that washing a man’s feet is a woman’s job. It isn’t. Two people make their choices in a relationship and one can only hope it is equitable; striving for equality in every sphere defeats the purpose and becomes calculative.

samina:
As I have already conveyed, feminism is several things. As my last sentence to shandana reveals, practice and preaching may at times be at odds, but this is not hypocrisy. It is a reaction to specific situations. A Gandhian in today’s times may beat up a man if he does something terribly wrong, rather than boycott him.

[I write this because doubtless there will be readers who will look at your piece and start banging out reactions like, ``Those crazy westerners...`` ``Women are as confused as I thought they were..``]
Why would they refer to crazy westerners? I have taken on the Indian libber as well. Re. Confusion, I think men are as confused, perhaps more so…the only advantage they have is that they have not had to develop an ideology for being men; we have had to. I see the confusion of feminists as dynamic, if you see the transformation and development of Greer and Steinem.

[``what would a ``real`` feminist do if Bill got caught in the cookie jar yet another time``]
Here again we come to the question of ‘real’ and its definition. I might say a real feminist would not have a Bill at all to deal with! Some might say men become Bills because of feminists…I would like to know the prevailing thinking among people in the West. I mean among your circle of friends, relatives…what you hear at the workplace or relaxing with them socially.

[re: Simone de Beavoir
Good goddess that woman should have taken off with her virile lover-what was his name?-and not nursed Sartre Sahib who has done very little for the modern world than write a few good works and a lot of crap that each one of us seems to pass through when we are insufferable and existentialist college sophomores.]
If we look at some of the most talented women, you will find a similar reluctance to let go. It is difficult to pinpoint the reason, but some of us are suckers for what we perceive as love…perhaps there is some insecurity as well. Yes, “in artistic relationships, the female half tends to credit/nurture the male half`s work more”, but ‘more’ in what respect? Malcolm Lowry’s wife would end up typing all his work while he drank himself silly and threw up, but then would an Anais Nin, readily exploited and therefore exploiting, say that the men contributed to her creativity?

[And who the heck does the dishes after dinner?]
Aha, the blessings of living in India! We have the trusted ‘bai’, a sturdy woman who earns and often, much to my chagrin, sponsors her husband’s booze. But she is often the backbone of most households here and it has freed many middle class women to explore career options they might never have considered. So, in an interesting manner it is women who are giving women more options.

Regards,
Farzana

sucks

``I am pushed on the defensive only because you men like watching a woman’s body. It is assumed that it is all you do,``


I am not sure y feminists nurse their victim mentality by stressing this `fact` again and again? Why lack of appreciarion for any women`s `intellectual worth` automatically translates to `objectifying her`??

Yes, men like to check out women because they want to spread their seeds. But when we have done that and are recreating the lost seeds within (that small window of time), we do like to appreciate intellectual worth of our beloved one. Any objection?

I didn`t get it.

samina/shandana:
Great...just what i wanted to start discussing... give me some time, trying to cope with some c*** right now.

Ras: I hope ``entertaining`` is a compliment :)

The feminist move is required in the West because the woman is constantly under pressure and is over worked. She works during the day to make that extra buck, has also to look after her home and children and finally has the obligation to fulfil her congugal rights at night.

And the men are very fussy about their physical state.

The South Asian women have the best of both worlds. They do not want to be freed. The man earns. She relaxes at home. Their is plenty of help at hand to do the chores.

And the men are not very fussy about their physical state.

they had a women`s day seminar at AKU today (though we take our time with these things, niyat naik hai) with a panel of luminaries presiding, including haseena moin and the federal minister anita ghulam ali. the minister sahiba told us of this fifth grader in khairpur somewhere whose parents wanted to marry her off to a grown man. initially she refused to marry him but when coerced into the thing, insisted that there be a clause in her nikah naama that allowed her to study after her marriage.
the minister`s ``team`` verified this as did a news-crew.
cool kid!

hey farzana,

interesting piece...a fellow writer on chowk once suggested that my having been a model for a brief period of time made my feminist credentials somewhat suspect. this threw me because her definition of feminism was obviously different from mine. as i understand it, feminism is simply about championing female tendencies like compassion, empathy, understanding, love, sacrifice, pacifism etc over male ones like violence, confrontation, strife, competition etc. am i wrong? who decides what ideal feminism is?

samina. your input on the above is also solicited.

shandana

Interesting use of sexual symbolism in this writing.

Once again FV rains a large number (Ten?) of shots here on the

topic at hand.

Still one of the most entertaining writers on CHOWK.

Ras

Farzana,
sorry to intrude here but......


hamidm where are you man?

I am proposing the consumption of only FRENCH wine (for those who

indulge in such a disgusting activity) amongst CHOWK readers.


Any seconds?


Ras

FZ,

You`ve given us much to mull over...just some quick thoughts:

Feminism like any interpretive system is comprised of many discourses, artistic practices and theories and that surveying the breadth of these discourses is to understand the complexities and contradictions when thinking about feminism or disagreeing about feminism or contextualizing feminisms or practicing feminism. I write this because doubtless there will be readers who will look at your piece and start banging out reactions like, ``Those crazy westerners...`` ``Women are as confused as I thought they were..`` ``As Cleopatra once said to Anthony as she stepped over the body of her sister...`` blahblahblah... without acknowledging that feminism is all of what you or I or scout or anNy or semi or bina or sadna or shanzeh etc. write and more.

What I find interesting is that the idea of disagreement or dissent facilliated a more complex thinking of ``what would a ``real`` feminist do if Bill got caught in the cookie jar yet another time`` led to a writing that acknowledged that it wasnt as easy as being a martyr or setting his clothes and car on fire a la Terry MacMillan...given your discourse community: your friends, (female and male) your colleagues, feminist writers and the ensuing dissent when you applied your questions to some well known feminist paradigms, you came up with a deeper understanding that feminism is not glorifying exploitative gender labor practices, etc. That is what I think is extremely imp. And if I know my feminist friends as I think, the interrogation as the party is just beggining...

re: Simone de Beavoir

Good goddess that woman should have taken off with her virile lover-what was his name?-and not nursed Sartre Sahib who has done very little for the modern world than write a few good works and a lot of crap that each one of us seems to pass through when we are insufferable and existentialist college sophomores. But she didnt....she was ``in love`` with that fairly bright but thats about it little man...at least Courtney Love had the good sense to scrape her life together after putting out a brilliant record...but again, can you deny that in these artistic relationships, the female half tends to credit/nurture the male half`s work more?

And who the heck does the dishes after dinner?