The New Jews

#172 Posted by Foxbat on December 1, 2005 6:32:40 am

SCREW THIS SUBJECT, LETS WRITE SOMETHING ABOUT LAHORE!

#171 Posted by mehnazhyder on November 2, 2005 12:04:05 pm

Excellent article, Bina, very well written. I can identify with it so much. As an American born woman of both Pakistani and Indian origin, and having lived as an American expat in Saudi, this pretty much describes my experiences as well. What am I? What am I not? I am everything and nothing, and yet, I am accountable for it all. Beautiful.

#170 Posted by Kulharee on March 18, 2005 5:30:22 pm

Bina, could it be that they are just interested in knowing what you really are? I think it is not very healthy reading more into it than it’s worth. As you yourself mentioned that you have been asked this question since you were a little girl, so why worry now? People are curious, and are now curious more than ever. Look at the bright side; more Americans now know where Pakistan is located on the map than they did on Sep 10, 2001. I am so impressed that Americans can be such quick learners. My colleagues in New York now know what part of Pakistan Dari is spoken and what happened to Mukhtaran Mai. There’s no such thing as bad publicity.

#169 Posted by Tipu on March 13, 2003 5:49:33 pm

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#168 Posted by tahmed32 on March 13, 2003 2:19:54 pm

Saminasha #167 you write ``Aaaaiiiieeeee!!!!!!!!! ``.

s-s-h-hhhhh, please no. The monkeys on chowk will run away howling and shrieking. And the pigs will develop wings and fly away.

#167 Posted by arjun_m on March 13, 2003 8:20:14 am

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#166 Posted by Saminasha on March 13, 2003 8:20:14 am

Tahmed and Harji,

re``...Great great great grand Uncle Genghis chased Jay`s monkey ancestors all the way to the southern tip of the India. What do you say, eh distant cousin?...``

1. That my maternal ancestor was not very nice
2. Some of his personality traits work for me as a teacher

Aaaaiiiieeeee!!!!!!!!!

#165 Posted by Tipu on March 13, 2003 7:37:13 am

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#164 Posted by Ralph on March 13, 2003 6:44:32 am

Kashmir Bus Blast Kills Four, Hurts 20
Associated Press

The new jews...killing and complaining.

#163 Posted by Ralph on March 13, 2003 6:44:32 am

Studebaker #159

India was the second-most corrupt country among the 12 countries that are deemed to follow ethical behavior

The twelve countries are -

Indonesia
India
Vietnam
China
Phillipines
Thailand
Malaysia
South Korea
Taiwan
Japan
Hongkong
Singapore

Some of the other countries such as Sri Lanka are considered to be less ocrrupt. Others - many whose names you would know - are beyond the pale. Such surveys are not conducted there.

#162 Posted by rsaxena on March 13, 2003 6:44:32 am

...abey 12-head, that survey doesn`t include pakistan, and still treats hong kong as separate from china...some credibility it has...about as much as your bhungee behind....

#161 Posted by arjun_m on March 13, 2003 6:44:31 am

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#160 Posted by tahmed32 on March 13, 2003 6:44:31 am

harish #158 I accept your apologies, even though I did not ask for them nor indeed did your reference to pigs in my ancestry bother me one bit, as I hope should be clear from my post. I did find your knee-jerk reference to the pig funny, since it shows you really think that because I am a muslim I would be insulted. Rest assured that I would not be on chowk if personal insults by anonymous writers bothered me. As for Jay, I think the man is beneath ridicule - his single-minded hatred for muslims in particular borders on the criminal in my view, and is totally unacceptable from a financially well off, educated individual that he is.

Trouble with so many individuals on chowk is that you see hindus and muslims and pakistanis and indians (and from your posts, I dont see you doing anything different). You people need to start seeing other posters as human beings first and last, and to respect the feelings they are bound to have for the community (hindu or muslim) that they grew up in. Then you can have some intelligent discussion, otherwise all you get is spitting contests between grown up men.
I am sorry if my posts hurt your feelings, but if I am ready to accept personal insults then I have a right to express my views freely as well.

#159 Posted by Tipu on March 12, 2003 11:23:37 pm

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#158 Posted by sadna on March 12, 2003 8:39:04 pm

temporal #147
``bush and company are mirror fundos to obl and am types``

Well I can`t make that comparison. Would you like to live in a country next to a country where obl was in power? Thats Canada according to this comparison..

Today Brian Lehrer on npr talked to one of the Iraqi Kurd province`s Prime Minister.
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/episodes/current

A level headed man, (for example when asked whether Kurds split between 3 countries deserve a separate nation-state, he said something like `history and geography have been cruel to the Kurdish people. But intead of leading Kurds into a course of action of which the outcome is wholly uncertain, we should accept this harsh fact of history and concentrate on developing our Kurdish society and culture as part of the federal republic of Iraq` (Approximate sense of what he said)).

This man when asked said that Saddam has killed 2 million people in 35 years. (Even if 1 million of those died in I-Iraq war, thats still 1 million people killed among a present population of 19 million?). He also said Saddam would never leave on his own.

My point is lets see all sides of the issue and have a proper perspective here.

#157 Posted by Tipu on March 12, 2003 8:39:04 pm

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#156 Posted by harish_hyd on March 12, 2003 8:39:04 pm

#150 by tahmed32 on March 12, 2003 6:48am PT

[You are so-o-o-o clever in choosing the pig to insult me, knowing I am a muslim. I am so deeply insulted that I am at a loss for words.]

tahmed, you shouldn`t be complaining since you were the one who began it by calling Jay`s ancestors monkeys. However, I apologize if I had indeed hurt your sentiments. It was an inadvertent slip and not an intentional attempt to hit you below-the-belt.

Thanks.

#155 Posted by tenaliramanna on March 12, 2003 10:11:08 am

ref #142 Bhitai

My intent was to comment on the rest(not Prophet). But the sentence doesn`t come out that way and needless to say it`s offended the followers. I apologise.

By the same token, how about being sensitive to my feelings ? My(our)Gods ? My religion ? My culture ? The other guys(Taimur, Ghazni etc) are no more than mere Bastar*s and yes there seems to be an air of reverene when some Pakistani speak of them. It`s only a psycho who will be proud of a Taimur ancestry - what do you call those Germans who worship Hitler ? No wonder Pervert Musharraf clearly said in an interview(wish I had the link) that our heroes are your villains and our villains are your heroes.

My post touched you somewhere to stir you up and react - hope the actions / words of your other co-religionoists or country men also stir you into action. Where there is a Allah, there can be Ram and Krishna and Buddha. An average Indian always is tolerant as compared to an average muslim who`s not influenced by other cultures(western, hinduism etc.,). Naipaul sure hit the nail on it`s head when he said Islam makes one reject their past. Sorry for digressing though.

In the partition, it`s a Hindu who lost most. It`s an Indian who lost most. The wounds are ours more than anybodyelse`s. Pakistan`s claim to Indian territory in the name of Islam is a cruel Joke.

#154 Posted by arjun_m on March 12, 2003 8:34:14 am

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#153 Posted by nasah on March 12, 2003 6:48:21 am

looks like the lap dog Blair is about to jump off the master Bush`s Titanic --

question is where will he land -- there is no land nearby -- on a Labor iceberg? --

Blair is doomed anyway -- ``nuh paaye maNdan nu jaaye ruftun`` -- trnslated in shudh vernacular -- dhobi ka kutta nu ghar ka nuh ghaat ka -

- should seve him well ...

#152 Posted by jay on March 12, 2003 6:48:12 am

Yousefkhan 130,

That is a pathetic apologistic post about abdus salam. If any of you have any respect for abdus salam, why cant you do something about it isted of mentioning it in a post on chowk.

Whay not the pakistanis ask the ``university avenue`` on chowk to be renamed salam avenue, why cant the pak associations in the US form a fund to give scholarship to a pakistani and call it abdus slam award, why cant a pakistani write an article on the birth anniverasary of abdus salam.

Finally why cant you accept that if any of you dared to do any of the things mentioned above, the iSI will see to it that you will not see another sunrise. Why cant you say that you could be charged under the blasphemy laws.

At least why cant you give a reason why no one dares to mention abdus salam in public.

#151 Posted by sadna on March 12, 2003 6:48:12 am

ahmadzai #145
``When the extremists in Indian Government keep war pressure on Pakistan externally and pressure on their Muslim population internally, fundamentalists in Pakistan do gain ground.So a little bit of sensibility on India`s part would have enabled us to focus on the issue.``

That fundamentalists gain ground with Musharraf is believable. When Musharraf has spent a large part of his career associated with the strategically important Afghan and Kashmir jihads, it has to be a personal setback to him if the returns on both fronts is zero. I suspect the pressure on Musharraf to comes from within his own corp commander circle with similar long associations.

That fundamentalists gain ground with Pakistani public is IMO, only a convenient argument, not a true one. The electoral success of MMA in Balochistan and NWFP and the sympathy in these regions for Taliban and Al Qaeda has nothing to do with India. And its hard for anyone to believe that the populace of NWFP is, for instance giving up music because of India.

#150 Posted by tahmed32 on March 12, 2003 6:48:12 am

harish: Great comeback, my two year old gentleman. You are so-o-o-o clever in choosing the pig to insult me, knowing I am a muslim. I am so deeply insulted that I am at a loss for words. ;-)
What do they feed you people anyway? Cant be the pill of eternal youth, since you and jay are I think grown up men. Must be the pill of eternal childishness.

#149 Posted by arjun_m on March 12, 2003 6:48:12 am

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#148 Posted by arjun_m on March 12, 2003 6:48:12 am

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#147 Posted by temporal on March 12, 2003 6:48:11 am

sadna#146:

“General point about Iraq`s WMD..”

:)

you know the answer!…

the coming holocaust is a naked grab…bush and company are mirror fundos to obl and am types...beards notwithstanding!

rgds,

...t

#146 Posted by Ahmadzai on March 11, 2003 9:17:12 pm

Sadna @ # 143:
Ÿou wrote:
``Good post, thanks. One person or the actions of India cannot rid you of fundamentalists, it will happen only through the Pakistani public`s own consensus. If Musharraf had not made a point out of excluding his political rivals who could rally public consensus unlike him, he wouldnot be in this predicament. ``

My response:

When the extremists in Indian Government keep war pressure on Pakistan externally and pressure on their Muslim population internally, fundamentalists in Pakistan do gain ground. So a little bit of sensibility on India`s part would have enabled us to focus on the issue. But hen Indian has its own internal compulsions.

Secondly, we could not have allowed the two corrupt leaders living outside of their own accord to come back and participate in elections. Do remember that almost all the Nawaz supporters are in PML Q now. Since elections in our constituencies are won by the powerful people belonging to those constituencies, even the presence of Nawaz and Benazir could not have helped.

In fact I believe that the presence of Nawaz or Benazir would have made it very difficult to address the problem under their populist agenda and need to win and retain public support in the two MMA provinces. For example, look what Imran Khan has done. He started with his own agenda, but joined hands with Islamists to keep going.

I think, Musharraf and the current Government under PML Q will be able to effectively tackle the problem.

#145 Posted by sadna on March 11, 2003 9:17:12 pm

General point about Iraq`s WMD. If the US knows where Iraq`s WMDs are, why don`t they tell the UN inspectors so that Saddam and Iraq can be disarmed?

If the US doesnot know where Iraq`s WMDs are, how will waging war on Iraq reveal them? Its more likely in the event of a war that remanants of the losing Iraqi regime will sell off the WMDs to interested parties like the Chechen rebels or Bin Laden sympathisers, and take the profits when they escape into exile(remember the Nazis who fled to S. America ).

So toppling a regime which has hidden WMDs where you donot know is more dangerous than not toppling the regime, esp in Iraq which can quite easily pass through a period of anarchy by splitting into 3 hostile pieces.

So celebrating Olympics in Baghdad may change into celebrating nuclear winter somewhere.

#144 Posted by harish_hyd on March 11, 2003 8:57:52 pm

#141 by tahmed32 on March 11, 2003 6:17pm PT

And what were your ancestors? Pigs?

#143 Posted by sadna on March 11, 2003 8:22:12 pm

ahmadzai #118
Good post, thanks. One person or the actions of India cannot rid you of fundamentalists, it will happen only through the Pakistani public`s own consensus.

If Musharraf had not made a point out of excluding his political rivals who could rally public consensus unlike him, he wouldnot be in this predicament.

#142 Posted by tahmed32 on March 11, 2003 6:17:27 pm

Saminasha #131 you write ``Hey...I thougth only my ma`s side came from Genghis Khan... ``
Great great great grand Uncle Genghis chased Jay`s monkey ancestors all the way to the southern tip of the India. What do you say, eh distant cousin?

#141 Posted by Bhitai on March 11, 2003 6:17:27 pm

tenaliramanna
#128
Your name-calling the Prophet of islam is totally uncalled-for. Then you go off quoting Vedas in the same breath, somehow trying to sound refined and tolerant. I have news for you Sir - respectable and educated people don`t exchange abuses! only hate-mongers do, or those suffering from some sort of inferiority complex. And I hope you won`t come back with the cliched and childish excuse of `he started it all`.

#140 Posted by harimau on March 11, 2003 3:04:58 pm

Just for laughs:

After getting nailed by a Daisy Cutter bomb blast at Tora Bora, Osama
makes his way to the pearly gates.

There, he is greeted by George Washington. ``How dare you attack the
nation I helped conceive!`` yells Washington, slapping Osama in the face.

Patrick Henry comes up from behind. ``You wanted to end the Americans`
liberty, so they gave you death!`` Henry punches Osama in the nose.

James Madison comes up next and says, ``This is why I allowed the
Federal government to provide for the common defense!`` He drops a large weight on Osama`s knee.

Osama is subject to similar beatings from John Randolph of Roanoke,
James Monroe, and sixty-five other people who have the same love for liberty and America.

As he writhes on the ground, Thomas Jefferson picks him up to hurl him
back toward the gate where he is to be judged.

As Osama awaits his journey to his final very hot destination, he
screams, ``This is not what I was promised!``

An angel replies, ``I told you there would be seventy-two Virginians
waiting for you. What did you think I said?``

#139 Posted by rsaxena on March 11, 2003 2:52:37 pm

re: urstruly

..don`t lie...you are the grandchild of your prophet`s 9-year-old wife...

#138 Posted by arjun_m on March 11, 2003 1:26:58 pm

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#137 Posted by nasah on March 11, 2003 12:41:34 pm

I know -- I know -- Sameerjb -- after the war -- Americans will say to Musharraf -- ``chalo ek baar phir se ajnabee bunn jaiN hum donoN``

#136 Posted by Urstruly on March 11, 2003 12:17:17 pm

stuka

I am a soorya vanshi rajput, Lord Ram`s great great grandchild. Do I count.

#135 Posted by Ahmadzai on March 11, 2003 12:17:17 pm

Stuka @ # 126:

``Why then are Pakis getting worked up but Indians do not really give a shit. ``

Two factors that I have been highlighting all this while:

1. Our religious parties, who live in a world of their own, and raise the feelings of an average Pakistani, who again is very emotional entity, on matters that do not relate to him. For example, burning American flags in the protest rallies in support of Saddam, who never had an Islamic agenda. He is a socialist and an anti-Arab and anti-Pakistani. But burning of flags earns negative reputation and gets repaid elsewhere.

2. The wars are being fought and won on economic and propaganda fields these days. In media, there is an emerging coalition of Indian and Israeli lobby, especially in the USA, where media does not have an independent policy. At best US Govt., establishment and media work together to form policies and get them accepted at people level. At worst, and this is what I believe, media actually influences policy formulation.

Pakistan will have to do something here on a war footing if it is to win the war that is being thrust on us at a lower level but will increase momentum as urstruly has pointed out in message # 125.

#134 Posted by tenaliramanna on March 11, 2003 12:17:17 pm

For the reading pleasure of ``rabid supporters of ISI`` a.k.a. Pakistani Majority on Chowk

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/news/news-attack-qaeda-video.html

---------------------------

Pakistan Accused of Staging Bin Laden Aide Arrest
By REUTERS

Filed at 6:36 a.m. ET

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - A grainy video purporting to show the arrest of two al Qaeda leaders has done little to deflect accusations that Pakistan may have staged this month`s raid to give it leeway to abstain in a U.N. vote on an Iraq war.

On Monday, the powerful military Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) held an unprecedented news conference to show foreign journalists what it said were images of a March 1 raid in Rawalpindi that netted al Qaeda kingpin Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

But few of journalists present were convinced the video -- which did not show Mohammed`s face nor any sign of a struggle -- was genuine. Many said it looked like a crude reconstruction.

On Tuesday, a former ISI chief said he believed Mohammed was actually arrested some time ago in a different city.

``They are trying to cover up,`` Lieutenant-General Hamid Gul told Reuters. ``I believe he was arrested before, probably in Karachi.``

One intelligence source said Mohammed had been arrested three days before, from the Tench Batta suburb of Rawalpindi.

Rumors of Mohammed`s arrest had circulated in Pakistan for months, but were consistently denied.

Gul said news of the arrest appeared to have been leaked at a critical time, just as Pakistan was facing huge U.S. pressure to support a U.N. Security Council vote authorizing war on Iraq.

On Monday night, a senior ruling party official told Reuters the government, under massive domestic pressure to oppose war on a fellow Muslim state, had decided to abstain in the vote, news that shocked British and American diplomats in Islamabad.

The ISI earlier said it had called its first news conference in Pakistan`s history to counter criticism in the Western media that it had not done enough in the war on terror.

Gul said the raid may have been staged -- and news of the arrest leaked -- for the same reason, against the backdrop of the U.N. vote.

Gul, who ran the ISI from 1987 to 1989, said the raid was conducted in far too casual a fashion to have been real, with police failing to properly surround or secure the house in a middle-class Rawalpindi suburb.

RELATIVES, NEIGHBORS CONTRADICT AUTHORITIES

Relatives of Ahmed Quddus, the son of the house owner, have maintained he was the only man in the house at the time of the raid. Neighbors said they heard no sound of gunfire -- contradicting the official account, which maintains that Mohammed shot one intelligence agent in the foot with an AK-47 rifle.

Within hours, news of the raid and arrest was leaked to foreign news agencies, something Gul also found incredible.

``He has to be questioned, before you present him to the public eye,`` he said. ``You don`t present news like that.``

In the video, an ISI officer is seen briefing half a dozen agents about the impending raid -- in English, as opposed to Pakistan`s Urdu mother tongue.

Officials explained this was a reconstruction of the original Urdu briefing, but said the rest of the video was genuine.

But many journalists were unconvinced as a calm cameraman shone his lights on the raiding party, and followed agents as they casually broke into the compound and the house, and walked up the stairs.

There was no sign of a struggle -- or of any urgency. The cameramen then focused on the back and neck of the man officials said was Mohammed, before the man was swiftly hooded.

The video has not been released to the media for broadcast.

Mohammed is identified by the United States as the mastermind of the September 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington. The ISI says the financier of the attacks, Saudi national Ahmed al-Hawsawi, was also arrested in the same raid.

But one Pakistani source said al-Hawsawi had been picked up at least one month before the announcement of his arrest, and that intelligence agents had voiced delight at the time.

On Tuesday, Quddus was remanded in judicial custody for 14 days, and lawyers said his trial could start this month on charges of possessing weapons, resisting arrest and terrorism.

The intelligence source said Quddus` family was suspected of having sent Mohammed food, and Mohammed was said to have visited the house four or five times.

Quddus is the son of an official in the Jamaat-e-Islami party, a key member of a religious alliance that opposes the military-backed government and has organized big street protests against war on Iraq.

Authorities say at least two other al Qaeda suspects have been arrested in houses linked to Jamaat-e-Islami members, but Gul said the party could be the victim of an official campaign to blacken their name.

``Jamaat has never had any contacts with the Arabs (al Qaeda),`` said Gul. ``They are at loggerheads with U.S. policy...and at this stage it would be an advantage to have them labeled as terrorists.``

#133 Posted by Tipu on March 11, 2003 12:17:16 pm

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#132 Posted by Saminasha on March 11, 2003 12:10:48 pm

Hey...I thougth only my ma`s side came from Genghis Khan...

#131 Posted by SameerJB on March 11, 2003 12:10:48 pm

Nasah: Pakistani and possibly Indian forces too will be part of peace-keeping forces in the new Iraq. In three or four decades all world will descend upon Baghdad for Baghdad Olympics where pakistani Hockey team will win gold medal beating Indian team. By the way, Indian Panjab regiment and Pakistani Panjab regiment will introduce kabaddi and BhangRa to Iraqis. Bari khol ke, bismillah + waheguru bol ke tainu akh mari aa.

Also after this war and possibly getting rid of UBL, US will no longer need Mushy. You know what it means? Pakistan and Iraq will have great relations, a counterweight to India-Iran axis of Aryans.

Pakistan will ask oil pipe line through Iran for Iraqi oil, in exchange for oil pipe line through Pakistan for Iranian oil. Afghanistan will get exclusive wagon rights on 105 and 120 routes in Islamabad and monoply over dry fruits in Aabpara market in exchange for Turkomen oil pipeline through Afganistan.

#130 Posted by tenaliramanna on March 11, 2003 12:10:47 pm

#127 stuka

This is true os all people. I have yet to meet a Kshatriya who does NOT think that he is the the progeny of Kings / Generals. The thought that they might be the descendant of those soldiers who wear Red Chaddis and hold spears outside the palace gate does not occur to them.
--------------------------------
I`m yet to see a paki muslim who thinks that Prophets / Saints can be born this side of the Arabic Sea and can achieve status higher than their own Prophet Muhammad. Just as this doesn`t occur to them, I guess stukas of the world think that all the Pakis are descendents of Prophet Muhammad, Gengiz Khan, Taimur ``THE LAME`` etc.,. Even if they did these war mongerers can best be described as barbarians. Well what does that make if you stuka ?

Truth (God) is one, the wise call it by various names - Rig Veda

Live and Let Live.

#129 Posted by rsaxena on March 11, 2003 12:10:47 pm

...saddam`s iraq is india`s friend, and i am glad that india has been very outspoken in opposing this war...if the US can befriend musharraf, why is it so horrible for india, france, germany, and russia to befriend saddam...

#128 Posted by yusafkhan on March 11, 2003 12:10:47 pm

Jay..you said >>Well, well, a little known fact, Ehdi is a maulana. If >>Maulana Abdus Salam were to win a nobel prize, it would have been a >>different story. This is the extend to which the educated have been >>brainwashed.
Edhi is not a maulana; in a recent interview he said that he has never read the Quran. Edhi never talks about religion and to the crazy fundos he says that the true Jihad is helping your fellow human beings, which obviously requires more work than bombing and killing people. He has donated to people without taking their race or religion into account(he donated to the WTC fund); the Edhi welfare stores are in some of the largest cities of the world (London, NY etc) serving the local people. You think every muslim with a beard is a maulana!
Regading your general comments about Dr. Abdus Salaam, many people in the Pakistani academic community lement the treatment accorded to him by our Government. This by no means dimishes the high regard many of us patriotic Pakistanis have for Dr. Abdus Salaam. Our feelings for Dr. Abdus Salam are by no means diluted due to his faith (that was his own business).
I have no qualms about admitting where our society or government has failed its people. You on the other hand should take a long and hard look at your society, starting with yourself, and see if you are doing yourself justice by blatently bad mouthing Muslims in general and Pakistanis in particular....people about whom you obviously dont have a clue.

#127 Posted by stuka on March 11, 2003 9:16:09 am

Harimau:

``You Pakistanis are all descended from either Prophet Mohammad, Gengiz Khan, Taimur Leng or Nadir Shah. Not a single one was born to a common soldier; everyone of you was born to a prince as most of you call yourself Baig. ``

This is true os all people. I have yet to meet a Kshatriya who does NOT think that he is the the progeny of Kings / Generals. The thought that they might be the descendant of those soldiers who wear Red Chaddis and hold spears outside the palace gate does not occur to them.

#126 Posted by stuka on March 11, 2003 9:15:47 am

Ahmadzai:

``Pakistan is blamed for assisting Talibans and Al Qaeda in the past and even now, cooperation for chemical weapons and unwanted arms comes out between Indian companies and Iraq. ``

True enough. Why then is Pakistan held suspect and India not mentioned even in passing. The difference is in motivation. If an Indian or German company does something wrong for money, the motivation of lucre is grasped at easily. Only the greed of an Individual entity is blamed.

In Pakistan`s case, the motivation seems to be a feeling of religious affiliation; a feeling not understood by the secular west. As far as I know Iraq has never supported Pakistan or given money or aid. If anything, India has had way deeper relation with Saddam`s Iraq than Pakistan. Why then are Pakis getting worked up but Indians do not really give a shit.

#125 Posted by Urstruly on March 11, 2003 9:14:55 am

#123

Pakistan has just done that today. GOP is already anticipating an attack from India in April-May time frame as a consequence.

#124 Posted by stuka on March 11, 2003 9:14:36 am

In my previous post, the term secular refers to essentially an irreligious society, not the respect for all religions bullshit the Indian gov`t bandies about.

#123 Posted by nasah on March 11, 2003 8:17:55 am

IT`S TIME FOR PAKISTAN TO SHOW SOME SELF RESPECT AND DIGNITY IN THE SECURITY COUNCIL --

IF PAKISTAN CANNOT SAY THE WORD -- NO -- TO THE AMERICANS -- IT MUST and MUST -- at least say -- PAKISTAN ABSTAINS

Pakistan signed with the Americans to fight TERRORISM -- and has DONE ADMIRABELY WELL so far --

Pakistan DID NOT SIGN with Americans -- to fight -- BUSH`S PERSONAL WAR --

Therefore -- Pakistan is under NO OBLIGATION to participate in -- BUSH`S CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY. Period.

Can Musharraf say THAT?

#122 Posted by Ahmadzai on March 11, 2003 6:37:30 am

Sadna @ # 98:

You wrote:
``Check out Syed Munawar Husain of JeI on PTV:
http://live.pibc.com:7070/ramgen/pv/smil/ptvnews/primetime.smil

He says if you arrest the last 5 ISI chiefs, you will have control over entire Al Qaeda. He says many other things too :). ``

My point of view:

I would say that 4 of the last 5 Chiefs contributed. One of them has his own rationale that we can discuss later i.e. if it is of your interest.

In addition, I think at least one of our Chief of the Army Staff viz. General (Retd) Mohammad Aslam Baig should be publicly hanged on his role of speaking in support of Saddam during the 1st Iraq war.

The ISI `s policy was wrong from the inception. First of all, the reasoning that Afghanistan provided strategic depth to Pakistan was based on the false premise. It is a friendly Iran that provides a natural strategic depth to Pakistan.

In Afghanistan, after the US and Russia had left, Pakistanis should have worked with Iran to form a coalition Government comprising Pashtoons, Hazaras and pro-Islam Tajiks (Maulana Burhanuddin faction) and then left that country on its own. As it turned out, that country became an extra baggage for us.

Also, the role of Islamic parties like Jamaat-e-Islami and others is hypocritical. They are capitalizing on our emotionalism by painting OBL and Saddam as saviors of Muslims. The hypocrisy comes from Saddam`s party being a socialist (Ba`ath means socialist) and cowardly OBL`s actions only harming Muslim interests.

On the contrary, these parties should have educated their supporters on how dangerous are these two people to Muslims themselves. It is their failure on this count that during anti-war marches, their people lift high photographs of OBL and Saddam. Just imagine the stupidity from a purely Islamist`s point of view - he is supporting the two rogues who are in fact responsible for bringing misery on Islamic movements of Palestine, Kashmir, Chechniya, Central Asian Republics, Moro Liberation Front, etc. (not that I support such a view. My views on Kashmir are known to you through another series of exchange).

It is simply because of these two parties i.e. ISI and Islamists that have failed us that people like me tend to support General Pervaiz Musharraf. The problem is that due to his role in Kargil, another enemy sees us face to face on our eastern border, who is refusing to forget history and extend a friendly arm to him so that he concentrates on finishing off extremist elements in Pakistan once for all. So the person who can deliver us from our failures has enemies all around him - Al Qaeda, Islamists, Indians, remnants of Talibans, opposition parties of Nawaz and Benazir who have their own axes to grind, etc.

#121 Posted by Ahmadzai on March 11, 2003 6:37:30 am

Jay at # 117:

That Indian posters quote excerpts from Pakistani newspapers and media (ref. Sadna at # 98) is a proof that our media is free and all type of issues get discussed.

Fyi, Professor Abdul Salam`s Nobel anniversary comes, the day is celebrated in at least 3 following Universities:

1. NED Engg. University, Karachi
2. University of Karachi
3. Quaid-e-Azam University, Islamabad.

Moreover, if you want to read good articles from a Qadiani writer, read Mr. Kunwar Idrees in Dawn and News.

Mr. Kunwar Idrees has served as Chief Secretary of Sindh, Chairman of Pakistan Automobile Corporation, Chief Executive of Bankers Equity Limited, etc.

More than TNT (which I believe is a non-issue just like every Pakistani married to 4 wives and waiting for 72 houris), it is living in a closed environment like a frog in a well that adversely impacts Pakistanis. We falsely believe that the whole world revolves around us and that we are the thaikaydars of Islam and of Ummah. An average Pakistani should be brought on orientation to here in Europe for at least 1 week to see in what kind of under-development we are living back home to open up our minds and thinking faculties.

#120 Posted by arjun_m on March 11, 2003 6:37:30 am

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#119 Posted by arjun_m on March 11, 2003 6:37:30 am

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#118 Posted by arjun_m on March 11, 2003 6:37:30 am

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#117 Posted by jay on March 10, 2003 11:17:33 pm

Ahmedzai,

What you have reproduced from the indian news papers is the strength of india.
The issues about pakistan that I post here are never to be found in pak media. I agree most of the pakistanis disagree with it even on the chowk, but here is an example, a day to honour abdus salam. People like YLH have written about shers sha suri, ayesh has written about daniel pearl, but no one writes a an article about abdus salam, a comemmorative article on his birth day, 28 January. The reason is simple, the TNT education has gone so deep in the pak psyche that no one wants to hear about abdus salam.
I have seen this every year on chowk, when the nobel season comes, all pakistanis will be talking about nobel prize for Ehdi for the great work he has done. People who refuse t honour a existing winner in an ahmadia wants are arguing for a new one for a pakistani. Well, well, a little known fact, Ehdi is a maulana. If Maulana Abdus Salam were to win a nobel prize, it would have been a different story. This is the extend to which the educated have been brainwashed.

#116 Posted by Tipu on March 10, 2003 10:14:03 pm

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#115 Posted by harish_hyd on March 10, 2003 9:16:19 pm

#111 by semipreciousme on March 10, 2003 2:28pm PT

[...i also hope you happened to read the letters in the mail section lambasting dawn for letting such idiocy go into print...]

No one is disputing the fact that a lot of people complained, but the fact remains that there ARE substantial numbers of people in Pakistan who subscribe to such disgusting theories. Urdu newspapers, that have much higher subscriptions than English newspapers, endlessly talk of a joint American-Zionist-Hindu plot to take control of Pakistan`s nukes and such fairy tales. Columnists like Hamid Gul, the notorious ISI chief and the pioneer of the strategic depth BS constantly lament the inability of their leaders to stand up to the Western threat, and openly urge the government to unleash a storm of nukes on Indian cities. Why does such crap have to go into print at all?

#114 Posted by Tipu on March 10, 2003 6:22:59 pm

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#113 Posted by harimau on March 10, 2003 6:21:18 pm

Ref arjun_m #104

[12-head..stop talking out of your rear..One could become a computer engineer without reading a single book written by a muslim(or a hindu)...try doing that by boycotting books written by jewish authors.]

Since 12-Head is a doctor, perhaps he could stop using the Jewish vaccine for polio. As his co-religionists in India already believe, polio vaccination is some sort of Hundu-fundoo conspiracy against The True Believers. Just tell them that Jonas Salk and Albert Sabin were Jewish doctors who developed the polio vaccines and they would be convinced that the Jew-Hindu conspiracy is for real.

#112 Posted by Tipu on March 10, 2003 4:59:22 pm

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#111 Posted by semipreciousme on March 10, 2003 2:28:41 pm

...bina...good, incisive article...could relate to so much of what you said...

ssdhillon

``A couple of days ago a columnist tore into Richard Pybus wondering why the board hired a jew!!!. ``

...i also hope you happened to read the letters in the mail section lambasting dawn for letting such idiocy go into print...

#110 Posted by pmishra2 on March 10, 2003 1:03:11 pm

#109 Tipu

So this is the great problem with jews: that some poor rural jews, on immigrating to USA, have difficulty moving forward with their traditions. And that they beat their wives and use physical discipline on their children.

And this is the same as flying planes into building? As praising suicide bombings? As legitimizing mass murder of civilians in the name of `freedom struggle``? As attacking legislatures and parliament buildings with explosive weapons? As issuing fatwas which say anyone who votes will be killed?

All your message proves is that you are unable to understand and function in a democracy. That you feel that the normal struggles of a community, honestly reported, are equivalent to the horrific islamist extremism that infects ``countries`` like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

#109 Posted by Tipu on March 10, 2003 11:31:40 am

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#108 Posted by arjun_m on March 10, 2003 11:31:03 am

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#107 Posted by Tipu on March 10, 2003 10:52:25 am

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#106 Posted by Bhitai on March 10, 2003 9:42:41 am

#83
jayjay
let me repeat what I said earlier, lest you may try putting words in my mouth again. `Their non-violence didn`t help them, till they finally decided to take up militancy`!

no where do you read any blames hurled at the victim here?

frankly speaking you didn`t understand an iota of what I wrote, esp. Iqbal`s line that pointed to Moses`s *active* struggle against tyranny, and a comparion of `laakh hakeems` with `one Kaleem`!

want me to elaborate further, Mr. ex-pakistani?

#105 Posted by rsaxena on March 10, 2003 9:42:41 am

...so what have we concluded after 104 posts on this thread?...indians proved pakistanis are jackasses...pakistanis proved indians are jackasses...the goras think we`re all jackasses....

#104 Posted by Tipu on March 10, 2003 9:25:07 am

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#103 Posted by arjun_m on March 10, 2003 9:25:07 am

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#102 Posted by Tipu on March 10, 2003 9:08:18 am

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#101 Posted by adnan_rafiq on March 10, 2003 8:11:31 am

ahmedzai: I do learn a lot from the posts of stuka, veeresh, prem and other Indians with a balanced perspective. My last post was in reference to the closet-modis such as jay, arjun, harimau, etc. It seems that every time Pakistanis are trying to be introspective these guys jump in and deliberately start a fire. From that point onward, the whole thing turns into a contest involving mud slinging and name calling.

I never deny the fact that much is wrong with the Pakistani society and how we deal with our religion. However, there are times when I wish that the above mentioned Indians would give us a little space to get some sense of direction. Its one thing to have a rational debate and quite another to simply insult and stereotype Pakistanis in the most crass manner.

#100 Posted by bat on March 10, 2003 7:57:09 am

alas we find ourselves in an India Vs. Pakistan debate again!
Pakistanis should accept that their govt. and people(and i refer to the extremists here) are seriously warped. Somethign needs to be done about these people who not only preach hatred against nonmuslims but as said before against anyone thats nonwahabi - shias, ahmadiyas,boris,agakhani`s etc ie their fellow pakistanis. And India has its share of extremists too. We are just a minority in our countries.The illiteracy of the masses has further encouraged the fundoos to brainwash them with their flawed theories of jehad etc.its about time we did something.Noone protests the shia killings or the ostrasizing of the ahmedis.we just sit apathetic and despondent

#99 Posted by sadna on March 10, 2003 7:05:28 am

Sameer, adnan, ahmadzai
Check out Syed Munawar Husain of JeI on PTV:
http://live.pibc.com:7070/ramgen/pv/smil/ptvnews/primetime.smil

He says if you arrest the last 5 ISI chiefs, you will have control over entire Al Qaeda. He says many other things too :).

#98 Posted by rsaxena on March 10, 2003 7:05:28 am

re: yusafkhan

{Is that because you and others of your ilk (RSS, VHP etc) were instrumental in the rape and murder Indian muslims in Gujarat? }

...maybe he was...but then don`t forget, you and your ilk were instrumental in burning a train load of hindus in gujarat to set it all off...

#97 Posted by Godot on March 10, 2003 6:54:24 am

Re: Sameer, #64

“How often did you hear Bina mentioning Sindhi in any article which is rightfully her proud identity.”

Bina’s proud identity, as it appears from her writings, is Pakistani. She also appears to be a proud Sindhi (which she has mentioned on occasions – that’s how we know about it.) She seems to realize that being a Pakistani and a Sindhi is not mutually exclusive, and also that she is a Pakistani first and a Sindhi second. She does not place undue and excessive emphasis on her ethnicity. She is secure enough to know that identifying herself as a Pakistani does not take away her being a Sindhi. Not only Pakistanis like Bina, but all wise, bright, and sensible people think that way.

#96 Posted by aquaris on March 10, 2003 6:28:24 am

..its not just being a Paki..

Its the whole Muslim Ummmah..

I would say....God always...tried to Lure Bani Israel to his folds...and they always lets say showed Nakharas....

and still..

So Muslims were His second choice....Only to Make Jews jeleous and then return back to God..

He still favours them More then any other Nation..or Ummah or whatever..

So rest assured you are a second choice even of God...and then On the Judgement day You will have the right to Question ...His choice if he is Just..

#95 Posted by harimau on March 10, 2003 6:28:24 am

Ref PaagalInsaan #8

[Let us be Humans, let the whole world be our homeland.]

If so, why don`t you move to Rwanda? You want the freedom, money and the comforts that the US and the West offer. You want a Green Card.

You don`t like Rwanda? Try Equatorial Guinea or Liberia.

Want to be among the Ummah? Move to Sudan.

#94 Posted by veeresh on March 10, 2003 6:28:24 am

Pakistan & Israel . . . two countries ``created`` with active participation by the Brits in the recent past on the basis of religion, and at the epicentre of all upheavals now. Thus, abhee bhee time hai, bun jao Vedic Islamic Socialist Secular and Liberal Republic Democracy of Pakistan.

We shall support you, don`t worry!!

#93 Posted by harimau on March 10, 2003 6:28:24 am

Ref arjun_m #18

[Pakis have a tendency to assume Pakistan = Islam and Islam = Pakistan..Call a paki names and you automatically become an islam basher...]

King Faroukh of Egypt is supposed to have remarked that, hearing the Pakistanis talk, one would think that Islam was invented on Aug 14, 1947.

#92 Posted by harimau on March 10, 2003 6:28:24 am

Ref yusafkhan #19

[SameerJB....whats the JB for?...BJ sounds better....dude I grew up in Pakistan and knew quite a few Pakistani and non Pakistani Christians and have never heard the name ChohRa given to them. You must have been a sick pup to spend your days hating Christians and calling them ChohRa`s. Lets get the facts straight boy; you probably spent your days looking for sex in Islamabad and when failed you started calling them ChohRa`s.]

So, YOUR idea is that Christian women are loose and available for sex or are easy prey.

And you want to lecture Sameer.

#91 Posted by JayJay on March 10, 2003 6:28:24 am

#47 by adnan_rafiq on March 9, 2003 1:33pm PT

[P.S. This post is only aimed at a small minority of Indians who suffer from phobias that inflict the likes of arjuns, jays and jayjays, etc.]

[It is you and your fellow Indians (some openly hostile and some with double standards) who is desperately trying to prove to the Western world that there is no difference between moderate Muslims and fanatics and that all of us must be dealt with in the same manner.]

Whether you believe it or not, I am a Paki and ashamed to be one because of characters like you, who so easily condemn everyone with a diverging view to be the enemy (Indian, Jew etc). Your Islamic “tolerance” is clearly on display in your message.

From your messages I am finding it very hard how to differentiate a “moderate” Muslim from a fanatic one. I believe the term “moderate Muslim” is an oxymoron as even moderate Muslims are not ready to question irrelevant and outdated dogmas of Islam. They cannot be called moderate in any sense of the word unless they are ready to replace blind faith with a reformed religion based on reason and rationality. (BTW I am a Sunni-Muslim by birth)

#90 Posted by harimau on March 10, 2003 6:28:24 am

Ref jay #34

[being a pakistani, it might be better to call yorself, the new ahmadia, having known the treatment meted out to ahmadias.]

Right on target.

Just last week, ``The Hindu``, a newspaper published from Madras, which has a column named ``50 Years Ago Today``, reported that Zafrullah Khan, Foreign Minister of Pakistan, reportedly had submitted his resignation after being hounded for being an Ahmadi.

This is the man who argued Pakistan`s case on Kashmir brilliantly in the UN.

These wahhabi namak-harams are now claiming victimhood! What a joke!

#89 Posted by harimau on March 10, 2003 6:28:12 am

Ref yusafkhan #19

[did you get the Islam for Dummies from your local Borders?]

I didn`t find that title but I found another one called `Bomb-making for Dummies`. Would that be the book you are referring to?

#88 Posted by JayJay on March 10, 2003 6:28:12 am

#41 by Bhitai on March 9, 2003 8:42am PT

[So Fyi, the founding fathers of israel, even their current `man of peace` were labeled `terrorist` by none but the British themselves.]

The persecution of Jews was systematically carried out since the Roman rule of Israel some 2000 years back until the Holocaust before and during the World War II, when estimated 6 millions lost their lives. My comparison only referred to the period of Jewish persecution as Bina’s article is trying to compare the plight of two people.

[It seems that the eons of jewish `non-violence` didn`t pay off aterall, it in fact landed them at Austchwitz!]

Mr/Ms Bhitai, please do not blame the victim for the crime. The Holocaust (especially Auschwitz) was a deplorable act by all means, which cannot be justified in any way.

#87 Posted by harimau on March 10, 2003 6:28:12 am

Ref hrrehman #52

[Nothing offends me more than an Indian implying that we Pakistanis are the same race as Indians. I wouldn`t mind any other insult except for being called an Indian. We are from the land of the pure and not from the land where people Pray to Amitab Bachan drink cow urine and eat rat`s s**t and consider it holy. You people are so disgusting.]

No. You Pakistanis are all descended from either Prophet Mohammad, Gengiz Khan, Taimur Leng or Nadir Shah. Not a single one was born to a common soldier; everyone of you was born to a prince as most of you call yourself Baig. This is completely believable since we know that these various sultans had harems reaching about 300 women who were guarded by eunuchs, so every single one of you was fathered in some way by these conquerors. I am sorry if I missed out on Mohammad Ghauri or Muhammad Ghaznavi. I am not sure if any of you are descended from them.

As to the eating habits, I must point out to you that the US Government specifically allows a certain quantity of rat feces (rat s**t) in processed cereal. So if you have eaten Kellogg`s Corn Flakes, you have eaten rat feces. On the other hand, you might have been raised exclusively on Fauji cereal so you might have eaten only roach feces.

Regarding prayer to Amitabh Bachchan, I believe you are misinformed. The only temple ever raised to a movie star is that of Khushbhoo who is of the Islamic persuasion and thus might meet your approval.

Yours in the interest of truth,

Harimau

#86 Posted by Ahmadzai on March 10, 2003 6:28:12 am

Adnan Rafiq at # 71:

It is a good post. However, I still feel that at least I am learning a lot from Indians` posts. It always pays to hear your adversary. One, it tells us where our adversary stands with respect to us and two, it helps us look and accept some of our own weaknesses.

#85 Posted by Ahmadzai on March 10, 2003 6:28:12 am

Jay @ # 77: ``Take heart, there can be no smoke with out fire, accept what you are and what 50 years of TNT has done to you.``

harish_hyd @ # 71: ``Now that poor Ahmadzai isn`t able to defend his fellow-Jihadis anymore, he`s resorting to comedy.``

In response to your excellent post, please note meta-physics at work:

1. Children attend seminaries in Pakistan and become my fellow-Jihadis, but its Indians who have sent extremists like Advanis, Joshis and Modis into the Government.

2. Pakistan is blamed for assisting Talibans and Al Qaeda in the past and even now, cooperation for chemical weapons and unwanted arms comes out between Indian companies and Iraq.

3. Pakistanis have been taught TNT for last 50 years, but look who has made a u-turn:

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20030317&fname=Column+Anita+%28F%29&sid=1

Writes the author, `` When the rest of the world is discussing war, GDP and jobs, in India we are talking about beef and cow, its urine and dung. If ever we needed proof that Hindutva is a phenomenon that is out of sync with reality, modernity and sanity, this is it. And if you thought Hindutva was the worst thing to happen to Indian politics, think again. Far worse is ``competitive Hindutva`` which is plunging Indian politics to the pits. When fishing for votes, politicians stoop to unimaginable depths. After all, this is India. ``We are like this only.``

Indians bent upon thrashing Pakistan, please come to your senses. Pakistanis have nothing to rant against Indians. Indians are doing wonderful job and while acknowleding their remarkable feats, in many areas we are just trying to mend our ways. So kindly discuss issues in positive frame of mind.

This is a request :)

Otherwise, more comedy can always follow hahaha.

#84 Posted by yusafkhan on March 10, 2003 6:28:12 am

arjun....Kuwait DOES hand out citizenships in certain cases and used to more openly about 20 years ago when I assume Khalid Sheikh Mohammad`s father would have been there. Get your facts right
before you crawl back under that rock.
Hey didn`t the Indian army name a tank after you? Is that because you and others of your ilk (RSS, VHP etc) were instrumental in the rape and murder Indian muslims in Gujarat?

#83 Posted by rsaxena on March 10, 2003 6:28:12 am

re: spout

{and ur point is? }

...my point is that there are pakis like hrrehman who take offence to being identified with the `indian race` but as soon as their behinds are being hauled off by the INS, they jump up and down to point out how goras cannot tell the difference between an indian and a paki...i want to know which is it?....they are either fair, tall and blonde, or they are the same race as the short, dark, and weak indians who gave them an ass whupping on march 1st on the cricket field...

#82 Posted by Saminasha on March 10, 2003 6:28:12 am

You guys really pissed Rafiq Sahib off...

and he never loses it....

Lively article, Bina. Will respond tom.

#81 Posted by mohar11 on March 10, 2003 6:28:11 am

#71 by adnan_rafiq
//..Its my party and I can cry if I want to...//

What`s the matter - can`t take a little criticism?

And are you sure it is still your ``party``? All around I see a bunch of horrible hindoos. But that`s what makes chowk an interesting ``party``, isn`t it?

#80 Posted by arjun_m on March 10, 2003 6:28:11 am

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#79 Posted by wajahat on March 10, 2003 6:28:11 am

#71 Bravo, Adnan Rafiq...well said.

We are facing a tough time in this world simply because within us there is chaos and from the outside we are now the the collective enemy of the freeworld, i guess it had to happen once the red socialist demon had faltered. For the Indians this is perfect timing, I mean the Indian contributors to this site are just raring to be rude and abusive. I am sure a lot of Pakistanis will respond in a similiar manner, but it is another catch 22 of the provocation game. The Indians need to start looking at how irrelevant their own social and political structures are becoming. The Hate mongering against minorities in India is more excessive than anywhere else in the world.

#78 Posted by bbabu on March 9, 2003 11:47:18 pm

the whole premise is flawed. comparing Muslims to Jews is ridiculous. Jews are a microscopic minority compared to 1 billion plus Muslims. Jews were very good at finance, science and arts. Other than sitting upon world`s oil reserves Muslims have achieved squat on the whole.

#77 Posted by jay on March 9, 2003 10:59:54 pm

Groom 2002 programme

Last July the Pakistan Software Export Board launched a programme, Groom 2002, to promote IT students to the software development industry. For this, they held an entry test and selected 500 students from all over the country. Those selected were sent to various software houses in August 2002 for three-month internship. It was said that for those three months, the PSEB would pay us Rs3,000 stipend a month.

They got our bank account numbers and other required information and said that first month, stipend would be transferred within the next few days. We waited for two months, but later we were informed that we would get the stipend after the completion of our internship (November 2002). After the completion of the internship, we sent them internship completion certificates so that we could get our stipend, but they made us fool and continue to do so till now.

///At last pakistan is focussing on IT education. Well did bina say that pakistanis are visa cheaters, well here is the example of your own govt cheating the young. Take heart, there can be no smoke with out fire, accept what you are and what 50 years of TNT has done to you.

#76 Posted by Ansari on March 9, 2003 10:53:31 pm

scout,

``how many Jews and Christians do we see answering the question of `what are you` with a religious identity?``

i was always under the impression that there was a whole discipline of Jewish Studies constructed to answer that question.

#75 Posted by Tipu on March 9, 2003 10:52:54 pm

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#74 Posted by Tipu on March 9, 2003 10:52:54 pm

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#73 Posted by jay on March 9, 2003 10:52:53 pm

ahmadzai,

Pakistan has not much choice, it will have to support the US and let us see, it is only another day left. The military has a lot to loose by not supporting the US, the paki abduls, well who cares.

#72 Posted by adnan_rafiq on March 9, 2003 10:23:07 pm

To those who feel that Pakistanis at Chowk are Obsessed with their identity and religion:

I think its a glass empty vs glass full question. Pakistanis and Muslims are going through a period of turmoil and unrest (I admit that it is primarily of our own making and we need to stop blaming non-Muslims.) I think it is wonderful that the internet provides us with a medium to express our frustrations, anger and misunderstandings through writing alone. Would you prefer the violent alternative which has been the bane of Islam all this time?

As for Indians not writing about Gita, Ganga, etc., who is stopping them? If you want to write then write. If not, then we are okay with that too. Most articles written on Chowk discuss the problems faced by contemporary Muslims. Very few are openly hostile to India or non-Muslims. Can someone point out even a single sentence in Bina`s article where she is degrading non-Muslims? Has she written a single sentence which is blaming the Hindus or India? Yet, I see Indians attack the author and every other Pakistani discussing her article without being provoked. We did not invite Indians to come here. The audience of Bina`s article is obviously other Pakistanis. We are just trying to debate issues that affect us personally. No one is forcing the Indians to read the articles written for us by us. So we like to discuss our religion at Chowk, so what? We are not going to some completely unrelated site to vent our frustrations. We are just having a debat amongst ourselves. You don`t like it? Too bad. Go elsewhere or don`t participate.

There are people here who refer to Pakistan as Condomistan, Pukistan and stereotype all Pakistanis as madrassah educated Abduls. Then these very same people complain that we don`t get into rational discussions with them.

Its my party and I can cry if I want to.

#71 Posted by harish_hyd on March 9, 2003 10:23:07 pm

#46 by ahmadzai on March 9, 2003 11:54am PT

Now that poor Ahmadzai isn`t able to defend his fellow-Jihadis anymore, he`s resorting to comedy.

tsk, tsk...

#70 Posted by Bhitai on March 9, 2003 9:02:27 pm

It`s not that Islam can`t produce an occasional Dara Shikoh. It`s just that Islamic Aurangzebs will always behead that Dara Shikoh, and will become Heroes of Islam
==============================================
#60
Prof. Akbar S Ahmed compares Bhutto with Dara Shikoh and Zia with Aurengzeb. Apparently Zia was the blue-eyed boy of Ronald Reagen, and Bhutto, the `islamic-socialist`, was made `into an example` as per Kissinger`s threat.

So Sameer and n_m_a_s, what makes you guys think that a Dara Shikoh in today`s time wouldn`t have come across as a Socialist? (or atleast a reviled greenpeace guy;-))

#69 Posted by mohar11 on March 9, 2003 8:16:52 pm

SameerJB
//...Indians do not write article such as .... `true, real, actual message of gita, vedas, Adi granth` etc. Why then even [pakistani] people claiming to be moderate keep writing about it....//

My points exactly. In fact, I have seen hardly anybody else in the world wearing religion so out on their collective sleeves. Pakistanis, on the otherhand are just so obscenely obssessed with their muslimness, moderate, mullahs all alike.

Even some other muslims feel disgusted about it. I remember reading a piece about an incident where an OIC delegate who was so overwhelmed with pak`s lectures on Ummah and Islamic identity that he commented ``Pakistanis think Islam was invented on Aug 14th, 1947``.

specifically in chowk - any comment on negativce aspects of Islam immediately brings in a barrage of age-old rhetoric from pakis about how Islam is in danger, Muslims under attack , without any attempt to rationally debate the issues at hand.