The New Jews

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HOPE FOR THE NEW JEWS,

US is planning to invade iraq to liberate it from the ruthless dictatot of sadam who treated the kurds as jews.

In the case of pakistan where the people have been treated as jews by the military, there uis no need for an overt invasion. US troops are already in pakistan, the sheikh who moved so easily all through pakistan and in the high circles is nabbed despite the support of the local pak people. The FBI is finally in control. The pak foreign minister said that the shekh will not deported, he changed to he is in the region, and now that region includes quatanamo bay.

At last freedom is in sught, pakistan is under the effective control of the yanks and that is good news for bina the jew. There are times one has to look at the positive side, and for pakistan a nation with out any history with out any culture, this is the only side to look at.

Paigham, Bina,

It talks about the ``persecution of muslims``, moth smoke guy elaborates his belef system, how he is one among the others. What is remarkable is that both the authors makes no mention of the core belief of islam, jihad, the killing of non-innocents. What all these islam white washing authors fail to recognise is that world is against only one aspect of islam, the preaching that individual muslims have to search out and kill the non-innocent.

In every other kind of persecution that you talk about there is some mechanism to control it. Form the 200,000 madrassas of pakistan what comes out is a generalised multipurpose killing machines, and pounce on any one that the mullah points out to be non-innocent. It is this distributed killing system in each muslim household that is the problem, not amenable to any form of control.

Instead of this pathetic laments, stand up and denounce jihad and be with the rest of the wolrd. Take note that the latest al quida man was arrested froma well to do neighbour hood in pak capital and with military connection. So p[lease spare the argument that poverty is at the heart of jihad. It is people like bina and mohsin by trying to put aspin on global fight against jihad are in fact supporting terrorism.

This is the most powerful piece of writing by Bina or possibly any writer

on CHOWK yet

I can appreciate the sentiments expressed here and those

expressed by Mohsin Hamid in Reply # 1 posted by Paigham.


America will come to its senses someday soon. It is still in rage

and is justified in seeking revenge. But it does not know how

to take action and against who for 9/11. In the mean time

many lives will be destroyed through misdirected Muslimphobia.


In the mean time it is also time for Muslims to figure out their own

place in the scheme of worldly events and to reflect internally.

We are always quick to denounce the West but have tolerated the

worst from other co-religionists. Why?


Ras

Bina,

This was excellent; probably the best one of yours I`ve read.

``It was easy to be this and something else, or something-American, or even just foreign student, and if that didn’t suit you, then you could always fall back on your religion, which I did with gusto. It was a relief to say, “I’m Muslim”. . .``

Just a question; if someone were to ask you now, within Pakistan, who you were, would you be able to reply as confidently, and with as much relief, that you are Muslim? Do you think it s possible to divorce the religious from the cultural identity and find it still recovers your sense of self? Being Pakistani may mean a lot of unpleasant things when at the mercy of foreign interpretation but do you find it allows you to be as consciously Muslim as living in America did?

Aamir

Yes, Bina, we`re the new Jews. But how are we going to eveluate and respond to our new found identity...I think that`s the bigger qusetion. This is an exceedingly well written article. I think it expresses the sentiments of many, the silent majority. Thank you for writing this wondderful piece. It flows real well.

Humanity is our mother, and since it gave birth to us, it has lost its ability to reproduce. Its weak, sick, hungry, in rags, looking for `humans` among `nations`.

Let us be Humans, let the whole world be our homeland.

Re: Jay, #s 2, 3

Jay, some of your posts remind of a little kid who cannot have a toffee. You make me laugh!

I just don`t get it! Does your muslimness comes first or Pakistan? Pakistan has tremendously benefited from the events of 9/11 and its ramifications. Imagine, no 9/11, and you could proudly wear Muslim on your sleeve but also rupee declining, economy on the brink of collapse, forex reserves negligible, Taliban next door, Shia massacres every week or twice a week.

All this in exchange for difficulties for few thousand diasporic Pakistanis, and mistrust of Muslims and word Muslim associated with terrorism less and obscurantism more. I have news for you. We hated them same way as they hate us now for a very long time. In the good old days of me a proud Muslim boy growing up in Islamabad, we had two words to describe christians, namely desi chohRa and velayeti chohRa. A velayati chohRa was a foreigner belonging to some European or American embassy in Islamabad.

Only difference is that we did not have CNN and FOX to say those things loudly and to be heard to the rest of the world. The shopkeepers in Islamabad would charge lot more from foreigners than locals. I have witnessed many times the way Pakistani treated white foreigners in various places in Islamabad.

Yes, Muslims are new Jew but for different reasons. Both have double standards; both are noisy and pushy. They would like khilafat, kingdom or dictatorship at home and democracy for minority Muslim population in India and in the west. They will defend 4 wives but will not tolerate affair before or after marriage.

Let us be honest instead of becoming a new Jew.

I don`t know what we are because it keeps getting into Indo-Pak arguments, but all I know is that it is about time we all stopped being fools. It is about time we stopped being colonial remnants fighting for the scraps. It is about time we did what we felt is our truth and the consequences be damned.

As of now, I don`t know if the INS regulations impact 99.99% of the Muslim or other populations of our countries. So, to start with, that`s a disadvantage those of us who get impacted start with.

Taking the larger picture . . .the European Jews, they were impacted as a larger group, in their own territories, if I remember correctly. The Asian Muslims, on the other hand, first made it rough for themselves in their own corners of the world, and then tried to export some of this elsewhere. The obvious solution to this is to try to clean your own backyard first?

Come on, speak up, you go for Hajj to a country which takes an absolutely un-Islamic path as far as treating humanity is concerned, and does any Muslim write about it on return? Let us start there?

None of us will do that. We are scared of our own Maginot Lines, dreamt up in a rush of fear. Or is it that we believe . . .?

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AS ALWAYS BINA DOES IT AGAIN. GREAT ARTICLE :)

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Muslims are the new Jews, where Pakistanis are terrorists, visa cheaters and total bastards, What am I?
+++++++++++++

What about the reasons behind this image that muslims have. What about the fact that Pakistan is the training ground for thousands of terrirists. Lashkar-e-Toiba, Hizbul-Mujahideen are pakistani organisations. Hell....LET is headqurtered in Muridke.....even has a yearly meeting as if it is some kind of a corporation. Most notorious islamic terrorists have a connection to Pakistan. Mohammad Atta, Richard Reid were regular visitors to Peshawar.You want the whole world to simply ignore the facts!!!!

As far as being the new jews....I read Pakistani newspapers. I can not beleive the kind of hatred even newspapers like Dawn spew against jews. A couple of days ago a columnist tore into Richard Pybus wondering why the board hired a jew!!!. Look around....almost very muslim country is producing terrorists. Muslims are reaping the results of hatred that is so endemic to their societies. Do not associate this with anti-semitism.

sameerjb #11 you write ``In the good old days of me a proud Muslim boy growing up in Islamabad, we had two words to describe christians, namely desi chohRa and velayeti chohRa. A velayati chohRa was a foreigner belonging to some European or American embassy in Islamabad.
Only difference is that we did not have CNN and FOX to say those things loudly and to be heard to the rest of the world. The shopkeepers in Islamabad would charge lot more from foreigners than locals. I have witnessed many times the way Pakistani treated white foreigners in various places in Islamabad. ``
While there is some truth in what you say, I think you overstate your case. Shopkeepers will charge what they think the market will bear, not out of spite.
Also, you are wrong in making it appear that being a muslim has anything to do with the low-class behavior of namecalling, and that local christians and whites are the only targets of such practices.
Namecalling of other communities reflects low-class upbringing and clinically retarded behavior for a grown up man. On chowk I have in fact seen (and commented on) it practiced by Indian posters for example (the name Pakistan has been twisted to every possible offensive word possible for example - Pukistan, Terroristan, etc.) much less than Pakistanis for some reason. I dont say all Indians are low class - there are many fine people I have met in real life and some on chowk too - but it does seem that India has far more lowclass ones come to chowk. So, you go too far in attributing this behavior to muslims only.

So, please try to maintain your balance when venting your spleen, if that is the phrase. Otherwise you simply fall flat on your face, and people on chowk say ``There goes our good friend sameerJB again, waving his arms in the air and cursing muslims. Boy, we are really, really bad people, otherwise why would Mr. SameerJB always vent his spleen at us no good muslims.`` ;-)

i think you are assuming the world has gone insane.
why dont you pause and think that paletine, chechnya, xinkiang, phillipnes, kashmir, ayodhya, WTC, kosova, .rushdie/iran ...why everywhere folowing is common---
-One party of dispute is Muslims
-they say they cant live with anybody else
-they resorted to worst kind of terrorism and invented greivances
-milloins of mulims are on streets for subdry reasons like ``support osama`` or against some sundry remark by somebody , but never to denounce acts of terrors by muslims
-muslims want not only but special rights in other countries but sadi arabia confiscates bible/geeta at airport
-from bangladesh to morrocco --all islamic countries are non-democratic and all non-islamic countires are

well bina...what if i say that there is a bit of make-up on ur greif... identity crises is there but its not being american or being an NRP..it still encirclesus in pakistan dont u think that v too inherit a couple of contradictions and that as v grow v keep on adding it...yes right.. u have to listenthe accusitions and justifications from both sides but.....i agree nothin can b done abt it and v have to wait until the dawn of a cultureless world..

yo Jay & company....you said
>>..core belief of islam, jihad, the killing of non-innocents. What all >>these islam white washing authors fail to recognise is that
>>world is against only one aspect of islam, the preaching that individual >>muslims have to search out and kill the non-innocent.
you must have been getting your limited information from Fox News or did you get the Islam for Dummies from your local Borders? Jihad is not the killing of ``non-innocents``....and by the way what is a ``non-innocent``? Oh yeah...every morning I get an email from God with the names of the ``non-innocents`` I have to kill...no let me use the word Liquidate...sounds more cold you know....more Muslim. See you at your next anti muslim reply.

SameerJB....whats the JB for?...BJ sounds better....dude I grew up in Pakistan and knew quite a few Pakistani and non Pakistani Christians and have never heard the name ChohRa given to them. You must have been a sick pup to spend your days hating Christians and calling them ChohRa`s. Lets get the facts straight boy; you probably spent your days looking for sex in Islamabad and when failed you started calling them ChohRa`s. And so what if the shopkeepers charged the foreigners more....big deal havent you heard of the tourist trap?

excellent, bina...very powerful and thought provoking.

Being an ex-Islamabadite, born to a Muslim family, myself I cannot agree with SameerJB more. (Remember the Christian ghettos around drainage nullahs in G-7, F-7 and other sectors, out of the sight of sensitive civil servants, politicians and diplomats).

How can Muslims start comparing themselves with Jews? Despite centuries, two millennia to be exact, of relentless and institutionalized persecution, Jews never resorted to violence in their defense. Importantly, even during the years of persecution, ghettos, hatred, etc, Jews continued to make tremendous contribution to the mankind as academics, physicians, scientists, businessmen and artists. The worldwide racial hatred could not bog their spirits down and they continued to play their part as intellectuals. Their contributions were always proportionally well over and above their minor numbers. The Jews paid attention to education and the learnt to adapt themselves in the host cultures. They always prided themselves as Austrians, Poles or Russian first, Jews later. A Jew of 18th century would have answered, “ I am an Austrian,” when asked, “who are you?”

I do not see any Jewish qualities in the Muslims. To compare violent and fanatic Muslims with the Jews of the past is to degrade humanity.

Bina, learn to say “I am an American” as your “spirit” is American, I believe.

Bina
//...Blame the other, blame your mother, blame anyone but yourselves, and pull your blankets a little tighter over yourselves at night. Then sleep a dreamless sleep, where we are on the other side of the world, kept out by your Maignot Lines, your Hadrian’s Walls, your INS regulations and your racial profiling. ...//

Clearly, you make no attempt to understand the pains of a traumatised population who have endured such horrible terrorist attacks ( and who , by your own admission , have given you part of your identity). You are mocking at them when they cower under their blankets fearing another terrorist attack. These stupid americans - look how they are trembling with fear, cowards all of them, you seem to be saying.

For you - the events surrounding 9/11 is just ``brouhaha``. Americans` fear of Al Qaeda sleeper cells is just hog*wash. Their concern about a ruthless dictator trying to build nuke arsenal is so exaggerated. These stupid americans!!

Why do you expect they understand your pains when you make no attempt to understand theirs?

How dare they keep you outside their ``Maignot Lines`` ? you have a birth-right to this land and yet you have no desire to show some compassion to its inhabitants. Great!!

BinaShah
welcome to the club, we Shiites have always labeled `mini-jews` by our brethren ;-) I guess it`s time the whole community wears that crown of thorns!

On a more serious note, I believe it`s more appropriate to call ourselves the `new commie`, since afterall someone had to fill the void left by the soviets..

Yes, Muslims are new Jew but for different reasons. Both have double standards; both are noisy and pushy
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#11
SammerJB

what about those protestant evangelists, who are drooling incessantly over the idea of Armagaddon? I guess you don`t see any hypocrisy in the followers of `Prince of Peace` who sit on top of the biggest imaginable pile of WMDs and incidentally enjoy some unusual level of influence on a rather gullible president? These people are far more dangerous than those cave dwellers for one simple reason : they have ambitions, and they have the MEANS to carry them out.

And btw.. you don`t speak for the whole nation when drawing upon your own experiences, like calling goras `chooras`. My mother went to an Adventist school and was all praise for Americans, does that give me to speak on behalf of 140 million people? no! So let`s not try to extrapolate our experiences to the whole qom.

//.... Why have you not spoken out against your government? Why do you spread trouble throughout the world? Why have you kept quiet while your people were ruining our lives? ... Does your religion really encourage suicide bombings, violence, destruction of Israel and America? ...//

These are legitimate questions from people who have endured worst terrorist attack ever in history. Be brave and face the questions. In fact these are the questions you should be asking yourself. why are you whinning?

And cut the cr*p, you are NOT ``New Jews``. It`s an insult to jews who endured the worst prosecution in recorded history. Registering with INS is NOT same as being railroaded into a concentration camp. Answering a few questions at the airport immigration counter is not same as facing SS squads.

For god`s sake - white christian grandmothers are being strip-searched at US airports and you are talking about racial profiling? Your penchant for claiming victimhood at the drop of a hat is disgusting.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

New Jews indeed!!

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Excellent article.

I have found a solution to get out of my misery.

I am going to Afghanistan and renewing my passport with Karzai`s pro-American and genuine Taliban basher stamp affixed ;)

On a serious note, what is life without a challenge to overcome it :)

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Pakistani held in Spain

MADRID, March 8: A Pakistani is among the five men arrested in Spain on suspicion of involvement in the suicide attack on a synagogue on the Tunisian resort island of Djerba in which 21 people died , investigators said on Saturday. The other four being held were described as Spanish nationals.


///Bina, I know that you are a modern day rip van winkle, unaware of the history of pakistan, the creation of taliban and the madrassas. Just to make you understand your present predicament, let me post a few actions of your country men so that you have a better understanding of the world after your long restful sleep at the elite pak educational institutions. Hva e a sense of reality, read the posters in the street corners calling kashmir jihad, attend a mosque, wait for next year and attend the e laskers meet at madreke.

Bina

Those are pertinent questions and very well put.

But before now, an average American knew nothing beyond his county. The Europeans, especially the British or the French, understand the rest of the world far better.

It is a fact that an average Muslim is volatile and is not tolerant. That is not to say that Islam is intolerant.

The West has had its religious fights and have packed the religion back into the homes of people since the 8th Century.

But this conflict of religion-state-life continues in the Muslim world. Reintrepretation (Ijtihad) stopped in 8th Century. And it is not possible to follow the scripture in the present times. Thus the anger, frustration and holpelessness of the Muslims. Sufism, my belief , has absolutely no conflict with the present times.

So who am I?

As Wali khan said, a human being (Pathan) since 5000 years. A muslim since 1400 years and a Pakistani since 50 years.

This is a passing phase. The Muslims have to pay this price for their intolerance. The Japs are back normal. The Jews are back normal. So will Muslims as well.

Maybe, this entire chaos turns out better for the Muslims in the long run. They would need to do some soul-searching and find solutions to the conflicts raging inside them.

Muslims are the new jews? Naturally, as you subscribe to a victim culture and always focussed on the suffering only of muslims, this is a expedient way of getting attention to your suffering.

Unfortunately for you, there is much, much more to jews than a culture of victimhood. There is dedication to education and deep commitment to the broader society amongs which jews live. There is a love of music and science. There is the high-level of participation in the democratic process wherever they live. There is the high-level of participation in the educational system -- my guess would be that most faculty in graduate departments in the USA are 20-50% jewish. Not bad for a 3% minority.

Do you seriously think that you and your kind share any of this? I don`t think so. The only part of the jewish image that you have any interest is the ``victim`` part. THis is the part that all mainstream jews reject !!

What can one say at the ironies of such a situation? Ultra-upper class muslims, who have prospered while looking away from the murderous nonsense being propagated in their countries are the new jews? People who take pride in being muslim but refuse to take responsibility for what other muslims do? What a joke....

I`ve felt many of the questioning looks you write about above. I criticize these INS regulations. However, it is their country and it is their freedom being put to the test. Such and other regulations are the precursor that will destroy the very things America stood up for.

I really like your writings Bina-this piece was average though. I`d differ on two major points with this one:

1) I`ve had the fortune of coming across Americans who are adamant that their government is committing a blunder by going to war against Iraq. And then they come up with a list of reasons why they are against their government. I admire them. They blame themselves.

Much of what you`ve said is correct. However, I`d prefer that Pakistanis and Muslims FIRST come up with ONE HUNDRED things that they are personally at fault with- as individuals or as a society/government etc- and then try to initiate ways to fix those faults. Only AFTER this can their arguments against America carry some weight.

`blame anyone but yourself`- this is something Pakistanis do far more than Americans. I go by the thinking that nearly all of our problems are of our own making. It is a given that outside forces will meddle in weaker countries. History has made that obvious. blame should be placed on the CAUSE of weakness and not the consequence of it. Foreign powers meddling today are merely a consequence of internal weaknesses of countries.

2) `The New Jews` title is stretching it. It`s not a good title at all. The problems of 99% of Muslims are NOT due to lack of a homeland. For the remaining 1%, they neither have the inspiration nor the guts nor the history of the Jews. A good title would be `The New Muslim`. Yes, it`s not as inspiring - but it doesn`t deserve to be.

Bina,

being a pakistani, it might be better to call yorself, the new ahmadia, having known the treatment meted out to ahmadias.

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Jews never resorted to violence in their defense. Importantly, even during the years of persecution
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#28
`I used to be a terrorist` says Uri Avnery, an israeli war-hero and a former freedom fighter. He says he `identifies` with the palestinian terrorists a little, after they attacked and killed 25 youths in 2001.

http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/Imassacre/once.html

So Fyi, the founding fathers of israel, even their current `man of peace` were labeled `terrorist` by none but the British themselves. It seems that the eons of jewish `non-violence` didn`t pay off aterall, it in fact landed them at Austchwitz! What evolved afterwards was a characterestically militant agenda, and it continues to-date. Apparently someone from the ghettos of poland finally woke up to a cruel lesson that History tries to teach every nation, something that Iqbal has beautifully summed up in one line:

`laakh hakeem Sir ba-jaib, Aik Kaleem Sir ba-kaf!`

Kaleem=Moses!

Very thought provoking..
In the aftermath of 9/11, the phenomenon of ``moderate muslims`` and ``extremist muslims`` has surfaced. I dont think the americans are as quick to judge as we may believe they are. Most of the antiwar protestors were white americans and that may not allude to any liking of Pakistanis but it certainly shows they question. I think most people are aware that moderate muslims exist. Hell atheist, gay muslims exist. Whenever i am asked what i am , i simply say im pakistani. Yes i get
``you survived?`` and ``oh`` replies but hey my countrymen havent made me proud have they? and i accept that, but i dont feel guilt or embarassment because i have nothing to feel guilty and embarrassed about.
extremists were flourishing in Pak. before 9/11 - although the MMA has come to power consequent to that, 9/11 has affected us favourably because of the crackdown on jehadi`s.Now they arent as free to go kill in the name of jehad as they were. The shia killings havent stopped but lessened.

...jews built wall street...urstruly and his ilk are busy building ghettos in detroit and sending cash to madrassahs at home...

...BIG DIFFERENCE...you have nothing in common with jews...give it a rest...

tahmed32 #14 to SameerJB

Heavy intellectual treatment of the subject from one of the New Jews!!

tahmed`s remarks on low class Indians reminds me tahmed told me I had had a `low class upbringing` because in a discussion about Mohammad Atta and his 9/11 fellow hijackers, I pointed out Mohammad Atta and co didnot suffer the deprivations of poverty, they came from well-to-do families.

I wonder if the typical attitude of tahmed`s which leads him to badmouth an Indian/Indians during a discussion of 9/11 has any connection with Bina Shah`s predicament. Ostriches will always wonder what hit them from the behind.
--

Bina Shah, I am sure that asking yourself existential questions is good for you, but BE a little like the stereotypical `Jew`, use your head a little and ask your government and your government`s favorite intelligence agency questions as well. For example why have so many 9/11 conspirators been found and arrested in Pakistan, holding Pakistani passports, the last Khalid Mohammad within a few miles of your President`s home. The first WTC bomber(1993) Ramsi Yousef was also a Pakistani passport holder. Did you have questions about your identity from 1993?

We live in an interconnected world, innocent Pakistani-passport holders cannot be distinguished from guilty Pakistani-passport holders simply by looking at them. Civil servants donot have time to hear personal histories, they barely have time to examine all ones papers.

Your sensibilities are offended by their temerity to doubt your antecedents, but at least you are alive and depend on continuing to be alive and publish your articles. The civil servant who examines your papers cannot depend on remaining alive. Those under terrorist threat cannot depend on continuing to be alive. Those who died in the embassy bombings in W Africa, the synagogue bombings in Tunisia and Spain and night club bombings in Bali, had they had a choice, would have liked to have the benefit of the current American paranoia.

There is no terrorist organisations which has sworn to kill Pakistanis whereever they are found. So be a Pakistani.

It’s made me ask a question that I haven’t asked myself since I was at least twenty-one.

Was that couple of weeks ago - plz confirm.

arjun_m @ # 36 and other Indians speaking on the same matter:

``Racial profiling how? Aren`t Pakis the same race as the Indians?

OK OK since Indians are our guests on this board, let us agree out of hospitality that all Pakistanis are of Indian race. Afghans, Iranians, Red Indians, etc. are also of Indian race. Even the early Cro-Magnons and Neanderthals were of Indian race. Actually let us admit that dynasaurs and snow age mammals were of Indian race too.

Chowsters, please join me in the written petition to the World Paleantologist Organization (WPO) to rename Dynasaurs as Indianosaurs, e.g. Tyrannosaur should be renamed as TyrannoIndianosaur and Sabre Toothed Tiger should be renamed as Sabre Toothed Indian. But then WPO may claim that these two species are not extinct, that they still exist in BJP lead Government.

arjun_m: are you happy now? Khoosh?

;)

bina:

...pursuit of gnothi seuton never abandons the sensitive few…

poignant, passionate, perturbing, persuasive, but not piquant, pungent, pathetic or piteous….cudos kiddo…

….before one can demand to be left alone, one must earn that right…what have we as muslims done to earn that right?…we must look seriously into raising awareness…we as in the silent majority turning activist…and spreading awareness from within and without…education and soul searching and as done for the jews by their lobby groups like B’nai B’rit viz. anti-semitism…we must eschew manufacture and export of terrorism...not that you and i do that...but being part of the silent passive majority is guilt by association...we should be more forthcoming in our opposition to those who have hijacked out identity, body and soul...atleast mine...

bspnd,

...t

To Sensible Chowksters in response to Jay @ # 33:

``Pakistani held in Spain``

As security council vote comes nearer, expect more of OBL search in Pakistan, some more stories of Pakistani support to Talibans, and Pakistanis held in Spain (is it coincidental that a Pakistani has been caught in a country that is siding with US and UK on new UN resolution?), etc. Rest assured this is arm twisting to get Pakistani vote.

In this regard, I would suggest what a very experienced and far-sighted Irshad Ahmad Haqqani suggested to the Government - ``use the vote prudently and in the interest of Pakistan. Keep every one guessing and capitalize economically on the opportunity``. Pakistan just got a very good defensive deal excecuted with France. More to come.

Btw, Jay, you boldly declared that you are a Paki basher. Question: Does this extremely lethal form of HIV run in your family or only are you blessed with it? ;)

what`s with all this self pity?

quite honestly, the current treatment of Muslims by the world is a good wake up call for all Muslims....

it`s time we stop wearing our religion on our sleeves, keep religion at home and mosque, where it belongs.

how many Jews and Christians do we see answering the question of `what are you` with a religious identity?

it`s time we stopped pounding our chests declaring `we are muslims, we are the best` and all that jazz

as far as this INS thing is concerned, why shouldn`t they check up on backgrounds of non-American Muslims? what have non-American Muslims done for the united states?

if you don`t like it, leave it.....

arjun_m #18:

I think your rough estimates are a little too rough. Some may even call it a white lie. But, coming from you its not all that surprising. First of all, Indonesia IS included in the list of countries required to registered (Group 4). Secondly, the Muslim population in India is estimated between 120 - 130 million NOT 150 million. Lastly, Nigeria is not included because more than half of its population consists of non-Muslims.

References:
``Although Hinduism is the popular religion, comprising 83% of the population, India is also home to one of the largest population of Muslims in the world--- more than 120 million.
(Reference: http://finance.indiamart.com/india_business_information/population.html)

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re Jayjay #28
[ ... To compare violent and fanatic Muslims with the Jews of the past is to degrade humanity. ...]

Where is Bina comparing violent and fanatic Muslims with the Jews of the past? She is only talking about moderate Muslims like herself. Nowhere in her article is she defending the Islamic fundamentalists. However, it is you who is trying to put words in her mouth. It is you and your fellow Indians (some openly hostile and some with double standards) who is desperately trying to prove to the Western world that there is no difference between moderate Muslims and fanatics and that all of us must be dealt with in the same manner. A country where minorities are persecuted and murdered for political gains has no right to lecture others on the degredation of humanity. As arjun`s posts prove that you guys are even willing to spread false rumors and lies to hurt the Muslims. I refuse to believe that this deep-rooted hatred is only because of Kashmir or Kargil or Vajpayee`s Bus yatra. The enmity and hostility runs much deeper into your psyche and displays an inferiority complex which just refuses to go away. You guys can at least pretend to be human beings, let alone decent human beings, for a change.

P.S. This post is only aimed at a small minority of Indians who suffer from phobias that inflict the likes of arjuns, jays and jayjays, etc.

sadna #38 I dont disagree with much of what you are saying - the only time I disagree is when I see you applying the broad brush of terrorist to all Pakistanis. And, if you read what I wrote in that post to SameerJB, I do not return the favor by stereotyping all Indians or holding them all ``collectively responsible``, and I often refer to the many fine Indians I have the pleasure of knowing in real life, and a few fine Indians on chowk too.
As for that discussion you quote - I suggest you cut and paste what I had written (or provide the link) concerning you demonstrating low class behavior, since as I recall I stopped engaging in any arguments (sorry, discussions) with you many months ago and I have no idea what interaction you are referring to.

...this is hilarious...for months we`ve seen assorted pakis claim their different race owing to blonde hair, light eyes, and fair skin...

...but then everytime one of them gets nabbed by the INS, another paki will pop up claiming:

``don`t laugh, you are brown too and we all look the same...one day someone will harrass you too``

tsk tsk tsk

tahmed #49
Sorry to cause you the trouble to reply, but I wasn`t interacting with you in #38, please to check again.

arjun_m @ # 36 and other Indians speaking on the same matter:

``Racial profiling how? Aren`t Pakis the same race as the Indians?

Nothing offends me more than an Indian implying that we Pakistanis are the same race as Indians. I wouldn`t mind any other insult except for being called an Indian. We are from the land of the pure and not from the land where people Pray to Amitab Bachan drink cow urine and eat rat`s s**t and consider it holy. You people are so disgusting.

suxena,

and ur point is?

stop the childish gloating

Chowk is getting crowded with articles from resident of Pakiland who are on guilt trip.

i don`t understand why the Indians on Chowk need to get all riled up about this article..... obsession?

270 Indians rounded up, released
by Malaysian police

Vandana Saxena in Kuala Lumpur | March 09, 2003 23:33 IST


The Malaysian police on Sunday rounded up around 270 Indians, including many IT professionals, and allegedly defaced their passports, slapped and kicked several of them before releasing all but five later.

This was the outcome of a dawn swoop in search of illegal immigrants on one high-rise apartment in the ethnic Indian dominated Brickfields neighbourhood in central Kuala Lumpur.

``There were around 270 of us, and we have already got the signatures of 178, and we`ll get the rest by Monday,`` said Dilip, an IT professional, who presented a petition to the Indian High Commission on behalf of all those detained after being released on Sunday night.

A Malaysian police officer had earlier told PTI that some 164 Indians had been picked up during a raid on one building adding they were released following the intervention of the Indian High Commission and proof that they had valid visas.

Some showed they were working for companies registered in Malaysia`s Multi-media Super Corridor, the Information Technology project zone running from Kuala Lumpur to the new development of Cyberjaya, some 45 minutes` drive away, he said.

``This has been a black day for all of us,`` Indian High Commissioner Veena Sikri said addressing the detainees after their release.

``We have taken the matter to the highest authority, and we will get to the bottom of the issue.``

Police initially denied Indian officials access to the detained Indian nationals, but later relented.

Several Indians taken into custody showed PTI their passports, pointing out that their visas had been scratched.

A Malaysian immigration official, who verified the defaced visas, said the individuals and their employers would have to apply to his department for a fresh visa.

The detainees recounted how police burst into their homes and herded them to a nearby police station, from where some were taken to jail.

``We were handcuffed and made to kneel or sit in the police station car park, some of us were slapped and kicked,`` said Nagaraju Cheekoti, an IT professional working for WWI Malaysia.

Some said they were ordered to do sit-ups, while others said they were stripped to their underwear, slapped and kicked inside the station. Police confiscated their cell phones and refused them access to telephones.

Police officials at the Brickfields station refused to speak to PTI.

``We don`t want to stay in this country if we are treated like this. We have come here at the invitation of Malaysian companies,`` said one of the detainees to a chorus of approval from other detainees. ``We don`t feel safe,`` he said.

Most of the detainees were men from Andhra Pradesh. A couple of women were also taken into custody, but were not handcuffed.

One group said they were just visiting friends in Kuala Lumpur, after making the short trip from next-door Singapore.

Last year, Malaysia had deported several thousand illegal immigrants, mainly from the Philippines and Indonesia.

Another Paki Looser!!!!

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/dmag/dmag5.htm

#47 by adnan_rafiq
A country where minorities are persecuted and murdered for political gains has no right to lecture others on the degredation of humanity.

WOW....I mean WOW. Are you aware of how the minorities(let`s stick to religion here) - non muslims in Pakistan and non Hindus in India fared since 1947 ? Are you talking about the % increase of the minorites in India as contrasted with the dramatic % decrease in Pakistan ? Unless you are also being visited by Gabriel and are fully convinced that all non muslims are seriously taking up Islam after realising that it`s the only true and pure religion. Or may be then you are talking about the opportunities that minorities have in India as compared to those in the promised land devoid of Kafirs - just look at the reality and then spew venom.

You have reached a piteuos stage of counting Muslim A(shias) or Muslim B(ahmediyyas) or Muslim C(mohajirs) as the minorites. Chill dude - we have problems and we are far from being perfect but we can lecture you because we are MUCH MUCH MUCH better in treatment of minorities. We need to do more and so do they - but you guys will take another 20 years to catch up.

#47 by adnan_rafiq
I refuse to believe that this deep-rooted hatred is only because of Kashmir or Kargil or Vajpayee`s Bus yatra. The enmity and hostility runs much deeper into your psyche and displays an inferiority complex which just refuses to go away.

Put a finger dude - what do you call that which runs deeper ? What`s the word ? And yes, we WERE and to a an extent still are accomodative - but then we realised that you were being taught that 1 paki = 10 kafirs and that`s causing all the trouble. So we decided to kick some butt and now why are you whining ? What inferiority complex are you talking about - look at the contributions of THE civilisation - which REFUSED TO CONVERT to any imported religion - to mankind and you will realise that you are but an infant. Live and let live.

Forget all that people tell you - look at India and Pakistan in last 50 years - no person with common sense will say that Pakistan should get kashmir. Your`s is a failed state and any addition of geography is stupidity unlimited inc.,

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scout # 48, 55``
I guess the reason for few Indians to activiely interact on such topics is understandably little bit of everything you might be thinking. However, I do not see much wrong in it because the wrong begining leads to wrong results.

You might have noticed that Indians do not write article such as `what it means to be Hindu, Sikh, majority, minority`, `true, real, actual message of gita, vedas, Adi granth` etc. Why then even people claiming to be moderate keep writing about it. At chowk, quran is discussed at least 100 times more than gita or ggs. I don`t think it is always Indians who start discussing Islam and Muslims. It is Muslims who love to mention it before anything else. How often did you hear Bina mentioning Sindhi in any article which is rightfully her proud identity. Actually I am often more criticized here by Pakistanis and Muslims for opting Panjabi as well as not Muslim identity.

The obsession is on both side at chowk, but the begining of the obsession is by Pakistani Muslims who are not content with just Pakistani or native identities. Each action has its opposite reaction. Pakistanis made sure to mention not only religion but their sects also whereas I have many christian coworkers and friends that I do not know the exact denomination they belong to.

This has been going on at chowk much earlier than 9/11. It used to frustrate our very admired intellectual interlocuor, late Bilal Ahmed. The standard line on Kashmir used to be and still is: Kashmiris are Muslims. That is why we support their struggle because we are Muslims. We follow Quran and true message of the quran is........

As I mentioned in my post #11, Pakistan has largely benefited from the war on terror since 9/11/2001 and that is what should be more important to Pakistanis than anything else. I wish to see good relations with USA and economic benefits continue as opposed to once again becoming proud Muslims with automatic high disorderliness that comes with it. The relief what many Pakistani Muslims are yearning for might come again after this phase of high anxiety alongwith faster slide to obscurity.

However don`t bet on slow down by Pakistani Muslims obsession with religious identity once this seemingly difficult phase is over. In the meantime, I have yet to see one article suggesting obsession with gita, ggs, krishna, kali, monkey, cow or lingum.

We provide them with the opportunity to take opposite stand on religious matters. Chowk is neither Islamic nor Pakistani site to keep on bringing Islam and Muslim with little discussion about the religion of the majority of south Asians. Mohammad and Quran get mentioned 100 times more than Krishna, Gita, Jesus or Nanak. Do you think it is just by chance?

By the way, it is more of a problem with south Asian Muslims than all Muslims. I have asked Malaysian, Singaporean and Indonesian about their websites. They tell me than religion is a minor disussion issue for them. Religion is a private matter and no point mentioning that one is a moderate, orthodox, conservative or fundamentalist.

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#52 by hrrehman
Nothing offends me more than an Indian implying that we Pakistanis are the same race as Indians. I wouldn`t mind any other insult except for being called an Indian. We are from the land of the pure and not from the land where people Pray to Amitab Bachan drink cow urine and eat rat`s s**t and consider it holy. You people are so disgusting.
----------------------------------------
Forgive Arjun, he didn`t mean to equate you with us. He meant that from a certain date in history to a certain other date we shared some common culture and hence for the rest of the world we are one and the same. May be in Dubai, they do a good job in differentiating Pakistanis(Pz) from Indians(Iz). P passport has a lot of value across the world as compared to I. These days INS seems to have got a handle of it too. So how dare he equate you with us who drink cow urine? And since you are savvy enuff to get onthe net and use it for your bigoted thoughts, I`m presuming that you really DO NOT think that all hindus (you sure meant that)drink cow urine. Are you, by and chance, being giving visions by the angel Gabriel ?

What Arjun has done is not unkown in India - particularly North - where some people - in all good faith - reach out to Pz. And no I`m not even talk ing about the communists. They are the average Arjun`s average Sharads. But this kick in the butt from the likes of you is very appropriate for only then they will see that they have been living in a world of their own - far away from reality. And it also reminds me that at one time I believed we were cousins - if not brothers and truly believed that we could live as one. Huh time is a wonderful teacher - hrrehmans of the world popped up and I realised how angel Gabriel had liked us to be different & unequal.

Are you one of those who firmly believe that Mohenjadaro and Harappa were your contribution to the world ? That the maths and science that the plunderers and looters marketed to the rest of the world as their own is really the contribution of Islam to the world ?

And yeah, please document all those visions from Gabriel or else there will be a lot of versions floating around: jihad and peace et all.

I would say that it is a good thing that these hyper-upper class pakistanis are finally feeling some consequences of the actions of their class as a whole. Just for example, musharraf`s nephew was picked up on a visa violation in the US recently.

This issue has been discussed in the Indian press at some length. The issue is how to deal with a ruling class that is busy flying their progeny to Harvard while at home they cut deals with mullahs and close their eyes to the thousands of countrymen being trained for jihad. In this sense i think it is entirely appropriate that Pakistanis are being profiled and tracked everywhere.

I realize that this has some consequences for indians as we can be mistaken for pakistanis or Saudis. But without a doubt the sacrifice will be worthwhile.

This article epitomizes all that is twisted in Islam.

I see some (rozaiba, scout, sameerjb) asking pertinent questions but what effect will they have? If history is any guide, none.

*******
It`s not that Islam can`t produce an occasional Dara Shikoh. It`s just that Islamic Aurangzebs will always behead that Dara Shikoh, and will become Heroes of Islam.

ahmedzai #46 That was funny. As Shakespeare said ``Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. Except in case of Arjun and friends who still rage and cutandpaste 50 years after the event.``
PS: Shakespeare did not live long enough to see this exception to his rule, and so I added that last part to bring things up to date.

sadna #51 Hmmmmm...I thought I was the only tahmed32 on chowk. My mistake. You are obviously addressing the post to some other tahmed32, and pointing out certain deficiencies in what he wrote.
Please give my warm regards to this OTHER tahmed32.

arjun & rsaxena & scout...I see it gives you quite a bit of pleasure to see a few Pakistani/Muslim weaklings whine about the INS and the workings of the US government. In the overall scheme of things all this is irrelevant. Islam has been under attack before and it managed to survive and I am sure it will this time too. Now we might not be around to see that but that is fate and you cannot fight fate friends; no matter how many cruise missiles and daisy cutters are used. So let the weaklings wine and let the self-righteous ones gloat. In the meantime all you Paki bashers call up the INS or the FBI on your suspicios looking ``Paki`` or muslim neighbor i.e. if you already havent done so. Revenge is sweet!

#65 by arjun_m
China is preparing a massive military operation to crush the ``East Turkistan`` separatists in the Xinjiang province with combat helicopters, armored brigades, aerial surveillance drones and bomb-dismantling robots.
-------
Somebody should tell these Pakis that China loves them because of us.
Let`s now wait for another U turn from Pakistan on the ``muslims being prosecuted`` beaten to death agenda. Let`s see how the ummah reacts.
Maybe Chinese muslims are not muslims. Wonder what will Pervert Mushy do if the Mullahs put xinjiang on the map alog with Palestine and Kashmir ? A Disgusting national obsession that these Pakis have.

SameerJB
//...Indians do not write article such as .... `true, real, actual message of gita, vedas, Adi granth` etc. Why then even [pakistani] people claiming to be moderate keep writing about it....//

My points exactly. In fact, I have seen hardly anybody else in the world wearing religion so out on their collective sleeves. Pakistanis, on the otherhand are just so obscenely obssessed with their muslimness, moderate, mullahs all alike.

Even some other muslims feel disgusted about it. I remember reading a piece about an incident where an OIC delegate who was so overwhelmed with pak`s lectures on Ummah and Islamic identity that he commented ``Pakistanis think Islam was invented on Aug 14th, 1947``.

specifically in chowk - any comment on negativce aspects of Islam immediately brings in a barrage of age-old rhetoric from pakis about how Islam is in danger, Muslims under attack , without any attempt to rationally debate the issues at hand.

It`s not that Islam can`t produce an occasional Dara Shikoh. It`s just that Islamic Aurangzebs will always behead that Dara Shikoh, and will become Heroes of Islam
==============================================
#60
Prof. Akbar S Ahmed compares Bhutto with Dara Shikoh and Zia with Aurengzeb. Apparently Zia was the blue-eyed boy of Ronald Reagen, and Bhutto, the `islamic-socialist`, was made `into an example` as per Kissinger`s threat.

So Sameer and n_m_a_s, what makes you guys think that a Dara Shikoh in today`s time wouldn`t have come across as a Socialist? (or atleast a reviled greenpeace guy;-))

#46 by ahmadzai on March 9, 2003 11:54am PT

Now that poor Ahmadzai isn`t able to defend his fellow-Jihadis anymore, he`s resorting to comedy.

tsk, tsk...

To those who feel that Pakistanis at Chowk are Obsessed with their identity and religion:

I think its a glass empty vs glass full question. Pakistanis and Muslims are going through a period of turmoil and unrest (I admit that it is primarily of our own making and we need to stop blaming non-Muslims.) I think it is wonderful that the internet provides us with a medium to express our frustrations, anger and misunderstandings through writing alone. Would you prefer the violent alternative which has been the bane of Islam all this time?

As for Indians not writing about Gita, Ganga, etc., who is stopping them? If you want to write then write. If not, then we are okay with that too. Most articles written on Chowk discuss the problems faced by contemporary Muslims. Very few are openly hostile to India or non-Muslims. Can someone point out even a single sentence in Bina`s article where she is degrading non-Muslims? Has she written a single sentence which is blaming the Hindus or India? Yet, I see Indians attack the author and every other Pakistani discussing her article without being provoked. We did not invite Indians to come here. The audience of Bina`s article is obviously other Pakistanis. We are just trying to debate issues that affect us personally. No one is forcing the Indians to read the articles written for us by us. So we like to discuss our religion at Chowk, so what? We are not going to some completely unrelated site to vent our frustrations. We are just having a debat amongst ourselves. You don`t like it? Too bad. Go elsewhere or don`t participate.

There are people here who refer to Pakistan as Condomistan, Pukistan and stereotype all Pakistanis as madrassah educated Abduls. Then these very same people complain that we don`t get into rational discussions with them.

Its my party and I can cry if I want to.

ahmadzai,

Pakistan has not much choice, it will have to support the US and let us see, it is only another day left. The military has a lot to loose by not supporting the US, the paki abduls, well who cares.

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scout,

``how many Jews and Christians do we see answering the question of `what are you` with a religious identity?``

i was always under the impression that there was a whole discipline of Jewish Studies constructed to answer that question.

Groom 2002 programme



Last July the Pakistan Software Export Board launched a programme, Groom 2002, to promote IT students to the software development industry. For this, they held an entry test and selected 500 students from all over the country. Those selected were sent to various software houses in August 2002 for three-month internship. It was said that for those three months, the PSEB would pay us Rs3,000 stipend a month.

They got our bank account numbers and other required information and said that first month, stipend would be transferred within the next few days. We waited for two months, but later we were informed that we would get the stipend after the completion of our internship (November 2002). After the completion of the internship, we sent them internship completion certificates so that we could get our stipend, but they made us fool and continue to do so till now.

///At last pakistan is focussing on IT education. Well did bina say that pakistanis are visa cheaters, well here is the example of your own govt cheating the young. Take heart, there can be no smoke with out fire, accept what you are and what 50 years of TNT has done to you.

the whole premise is flawed. comparing Muslims to Jews is ridiculous. Jews are a microscopic minority compared to 1 billion plus Muslims. Jews were very good at finance, science and arts. Other than sitting upon world`s oil reserves Muslims have achieved squat on the whole.

#71 Bravo, Adnan Rafiq...well said.

We are facing a tough time in this world simply because within us there is chaos and from the outside we are now the the collective enemy of the freeworld, i guess it had to happen once the red socialist demon had faltered. For the Indians this is perfect timing, I mean the Indian contributors to this site are just raring to be rude and abusive. I am sure a lot of Pakistanis will respond in a similiar manner, but it is another catch 22 of the provocation game. The Indians need to start looking at how irrelevant their own social and political structures are becoming. The Hate mongering against minorities in India is more excessive than anywhere else in the world.

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#71 by adnan_rafiq
//..Its my party and I can cry if I want to...//

What`s the matter - can`t take a little criticism?

And are you sure it is still your ``party``? All around I see a bunch of horrible hindoos. But that`s what makes chowk an interesting ``party``, isn`t it?

You guys really pissed Rafiq Sahib off...

and he never loses it....


Lively article, Bina. Will respond tom.

re: spout

{and ur point is? }


...my point is that there are pakis like hrrehman who take offence to being identified with the `indian race` but as soon as their behinds are being hauled off by the INS, they jump up and down to point out how goras cannot tell the difference between an indian and a paki...i want to know which is it?....they are either fair, tall and blonde, or they are the same race as the short, dark, and weak indians who gave them an ass whupping on march 1st on the cricket field...

arjun....Kuwait DOES hand out citizenships in certain cases and used to more openly about 20 years ago when I assume Khalid Sheikh Mohammad`s father would have been there. Get your facts right
before you crawl back under that rock.
Hey didn`t the Indian army name a tank after you? Is that because you and others of your ilk (RSS, VHP etc) were instrumental in the rape and murder Indian muslims in Gujarat?

Jay @ # 77: ``Take heart, there can be no smoke with out fire, accept what you are and what 50 years of TNT has done to you.``

harish_hyd @ # 71: ``Now that poor Ahmadzai isn`t able to defend his fellow-Jihadis anymore, he`s resorting to comedy.``

In response to your excellent post, please note meta-physics at work:

1. Children attend seminaries in Pakistan and become my fellow-Jihadis, but its Indians who have sent extremists like Advanis, Joshis and Modis into the Government.

2. Pakistan is blamed for assisting Talibans and Al Qaeda in the past and even now, cooperation for chemical weapons and unwanted arms comes out between Indian companies and Iraq.

3. Pakistanis have been taught TNT for last 50 years, but look who has made a u-turn:

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20030317&fname=Column+Anita+%28F%29&sid=1

Writes the author, `` When the rest of the world is discussing war, GDP and jobs, in India we are talking about beef and cow, its urine and dung. If ever we needed proof that Hindutva is a phenomenon that is out of sync with reality, modernity and sanity, this is it. And if you thought Hindutva was the worst thing to happen to Indian politics, think again. Far worse is ``competitive Hindutva`` which is plunging Indian politics to the pits. When fishing for votes, politicians stoop to unimaginable depths. After all, this is India. ``We are like this only.``

Indians bent upon thrashing Pakistan, please come to your senses. Pakistanis have nothing to rant against Indians. Indians are doing wonderful job and while acknowleding their remarkable feats, in many areas we are just trying to mend our ways. So kindly discuss issues in positive frame of mind.

This is a request :)

Otherwise, more comedy can always follow hahaha.

Adnan Rafiq at # 71:

It is a good post. However, I still feel that at least I am learning a lot from Indians` posts. It always pays to hear your adversary. One, it tells us where our adversary stands with respect to us and two, it helps us look and accept some of our own weaknesses.

Ref hrrehman #52

[Nothing offends me more than an Indian implying that we Pakistanis are the same race as Indians. I wouldn`t mind any other insult except for being called an Indian. We are from the land of the pure and not from the land where people Pray to Amitab Bachan drink cow urine and eat rat`s s**t and consider it holy. You people are so disgusting.]

No. You Pakistanis are all descended from either Prophet Mohammad, Gengiz Khan, Taimur Leng or Nadir Shah. Not a single one was born to a common soldier; everyone of you was born to a prince as most of you call yourself Baig. This is completely believable since we know that these various sultans had harems reaching about 300 women who were guarded by eunuchs, so every single one of you was fathered in some way by these conquerors. I am sorry if I missed out on Mohammad Ghauri or Muhammad Ghaznavi. I am not sure if any of you are descended from them.

As to the eating habits, I must point out to you that the US Government specifically allows a certain quantity of rat feces (rat s**t) in processed cereal. So if you have eaten Kellogg`s Corn Flakes, you have eaten rat feces. On the other hand, you might have been raised exclusively on Fauji cereal so you might have eaten only roach feces.

Regarding prayer to Amitabh Bachchan, I believe you are misinformed. The only temple ever raised to a movie star is that of Khushbhoo who is of the Islamic persuasion and thus might meet your approval.

Yours in the interest of truth,

Harimau

#41 by Bhitai on March 9, 2003 8:42am PT

[So Fyi, the founding fathers of israel, even their current `man of peace` were labeled `terrorist` by none but the British themselves.]

The persecution of Jews was systematically carried out since the Roman rule of Israel some 2000 years back until the Holocaust before and during the World War II, when estimated 6 millions lost their lives. My comparison only referred to the period of Jewish persecution as Bina’s article is trying to compare the plight of two people.

[It seems that the eons of jewish `non-violence` didn`t pay off aterall, it in fact landed them at Austchwitz!]

Mr/Ms Bhitai, please do not blame the victim for the crime. The Holocaust (especially Auschwitz) was a deplorable act by all means, which cannot be justified in any way.

Ref yusafkhan #19

[did you get the Islam for Dummies from your local Borders?]

I didn`t find that title but I found another one called `Bomb-making for Dummies`. Would that be the book you are referring to?

Ref jay #34

[being a pakistani, it might be better to call yorself, the new ahmadia, having known the treatment meted out to ahmadias.]

Right on target.

Just last week, ``The Hindu``, a newspaper published from Madras, which has a column named ``50 Years Ago Today``, reported that Zafrullah Khan, Foreign Minister of Pakistan, reportedly had submitted his resignation after being hounded for being an Ahmadi.

This is the man who argued Pakistan`s case on Kashmir brilliantly in the UN.

These wahhabi namak-harams are now claiming victimhood! What a joke!

#47 by adnan_rafiq on March 9, 2003 1:33pm PT


[P.S. This post is only aimed at a small minority of Indians who suffer from phobias that inflict the likes of arjuns, jays and jayjays, etc.]

[It is you and your fellow Indians (some openly hostile and some with double standards) who is desperately trying to prove to the Western world that there is no difference between moderate Muslims and fanatics and that all of us must be dealt with in the same manner.]

Whether you believe it or not, I am a Paki and ashamed to be one because of characters like you, who so easily condemn everyone with a diverging view to be the enemy (Indian, Jew etc). Your Islamic “tolerance” is clearly on display in your message.

From your messages I am finding it very hard how to differentiate a “moderate” Muslim from a fanatic one. I believe the term “moderate Muslim” is an oxymoron as even moderate Muslims are not ready to question irrelevant and outdated dogmas of Islam. They cannot be called moderate in any sense of the word unless they are ready to replace blind faith with a reformed religion based on reason and rationality. (BTW I am a Sunni-Muslim by birth)