The Tyson Who Didn't Fight Lewis
Dilip DSouza March 10, 2003
#103 Posted by maillart on March 20, 2003 12:13:58 am
Dilip#58
Dear Dilip,
“maillart #19: You say: ``might have been note worthy but definately not quite significant``. It would be an education to find out how something is noteworthy but not significant. Please enlighten me.”
Sorry for the delay...I missed this bit earlier on.
What I tried to point out was commonplaceness of such events, demonstrations and experiences in our grand democracy. Such in-your-face confrontations are not too unusual....and I am sure all of us Indians have ever paid a visit to a railway station without directly or indirectly being witness to such incidences.
While it was a run of the mill demonstration of VHP which as you describe no one was particularly paying attention to, one also fails to understand the purpose of those female demonstrators showing placards of ‘No more blood’ and ‘peace in Gujarat’, especially when there is no more blood & peace indeed is prevailing. In my opinion both had no real causes for staging their demonstrations but the fact is that both did and many hundreds are being carried out for various reasons or for no reasons at all every day through out the nation. Last week in Baroda the lawyers staged demonstrations and went on strike for three days because a traffic policeman gave a parking violation ticket to an esteemed lawyer! One lawyer even threatened to jump of from the court building if the commissioner of police did not apologize, unfortunately for the large crowd of spectators he chickened out at the last minute and gave some vague lawyerish explanation.
Only thing which bothers me is that by narrating this incidence in the way you did, you seem to imply that it carries some greater meaning. If that was not the intention than may be I was wearing tinted glasses and read something more than intended.
Anyhow It would be interesting to know more about your meeting with that VHP fellow. Keep us posted.
Regards
Dear Dilip,
“maillart #19: You say: ``might have been note worthy but definately not quite significant``. It would be an education to find out how something is noteworthy but not significant. Please enlighten me.”
Sorry for the delay...I missed this bit earlier on.
What I tried to point out was commonplaceness of such events, demonstrations and experiences in our grand democracy. Such in-your-face confrontations are not too unusual....and I am sure all of us Indians have ever paid a visit to a railway station without directly or indirectly being witness to such incidences.
While it was a run of the mill demonstration of VHP which as you describe no one was particularly paying attention to, one also fails to understand the purpose of those female demonstrators showing placards of ‘No more blood’ and ‘peace in Gujarat’, especially when there is no more blood & peace indeed is prevailing. In my opinion both had no real causes for staging their demonstrations but the fact is that both did and many hundreds are being carried out for various reasons or for no reasons at all every day through out the nation. Last week in Baroda the lawyers staged demonstrations and went on strike for three days because a traffic policeman gave a parking violation ticket to an esteemed lawyer! One lawyer even threatened to jump of from the court building if the commissioner of police did not apologize, unfortunately for the large crowd of spectators he chickened out at the last minute and gave some vague lawyerish explanation.
Only thing which bothers me is that by narrating this incidence in the way you did, you seem to imply that it carries some greater meaning. If that was not the intention than may be I was wearing tinted glasses and read something more than intended.
Anyhow It would be interesting to know more about your meeting with that VHP fellow. Keep us posted.
Regards
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#102 Posted by pmishra2 on March 14, 2003 8:13:19 am
stuka #99
I do not object to even a single measure you have proposed. I cannot agree with you more that undoing injustice to ALL indians in J&K is an important first step.
All I object to is the pretence that no outside interference has taken place in J&K. This is what propagandists like Urstruly are doing. A recent report in the Pakistani newspaper The Times estimated that the peace-loving folks in Pakistan and the Gulf are funding approximately $100 million per year in funding the insurgency. There needs to be accounatability for this kind of terrorist fund raising.
I do not object to even a single measure you have proposed. I cannot agree with you more that undoing injustice to ALL indians in J&K is an important first step.
All I object to is the pretence that no outside interference has taken place in J&K. This is what propagandists like Urstruly are doing. A recent report in the Pakistani newspaper The Times estimated that the peace-loving folks in Pakistan and the Gulf are funding approximately $100 million per year in funding the insurgency. There needs to be accounatability for this kind of terrorist fund raising.
#101 Posted by harish_hyd on March 14, 2003 7:06:16 am
#98 by Sobia on March 13, 2003 11:18pm PT
[my dear, if i wanted to engage in an argument with you, i would`ve done so a long time back...but because there`s no point reasoning with idiots like you, i didn`t say much then and i won`t say much now.]
And pray tell, what exactly is that you`re doing now?
[People like you are so narrow-minded and blinded in your hatred that you`re not willing to look at anything other than what suits your own interest.]
Coming from the land that is the epicenter of the hatred that is consuming much of the world right now, are you telling us that? Give us a break lady.
[Anyhow, cheers..I don`t think I`m going to exchanging any more posts with you or others like you.]
Good riddance.
[my dear, if i wanted to engage in an argument with you, i would`ve done so a long time back...but because there`s no point reasoning with idiots like you, i didn`t say much then and i won`t say much now.]
And pray tell, what exactly is that you`re doing now?
[People like you are so narrow-minded and blinded in your hatred that you`re not willing to look at anything other than what suits your own interest.]
Coming from the land that is the epicenter of the hatred that is consuming much of the world right now, are you telling us that? Give us a break lady.
[Anyhow, cheers..I don`t think I`m going to exchanging any more posts with you or others like you.]
Good riddance.
#100 Posted by Saminasha on March 14, 2003 7:06:06 am
Stuka,
But the fact is as Dilip pointed out, that the cops seemed to be uninterested in checking the behavior of these behaiya admieh. To what extent are the police complicit in the bullying tactics of the VHP? Hasn`t this question been asked for the last 3 years?
But the fact is as Dilip pointed out, that the cops seemed to be uninterested in checking the behavior of these behaiya admieh. To what extent are the police complicit in the bullying tactics of the VHP? Hasn`t this question been asked for the last 3 years?
#99 Posted by stuka on March 14, 2003 7:06:05 am
PMishra2:
Do you really think that the situation in J&K today is because of ``indian oppression``?
I do think the situation in Kashmir was ignited by political manouvres of the Central Government led by Indiara Gandhi. As such I had and have no sympathy for the Muslims in the valley because they showed no sympathy for the Hindus there either.
However, the victims of insurgency are always widespread not just in Kashmir but in the north east and any other place as well. I say again, if you look at the steps that Urstruly mentions, and ignore the ``blame game`` and rhetoric, those steps are essential.
What, amongs the ten actions that are mentioned, would you object to? BTW, growing up as a military brat, to me the Armed Forces are my family`s bread and butter and I would never go against them. I also know however that excess, not as policy but in implementation of counter insurgency, is routine. The healing touch can and does provide wonders in winning over a hostile populace. There is a huge difference in the way the army is percieved in Shia areas where recruitment in to JAK Rifles has taken place and Srinagar where the individual is humiliated in routine cordon and search operations.
Do you really think that the situation in J&K today is because of ``indian oppression``?
I do think the situation in Kashmir was ignited by political manouvres of the Central Government led by Indiara Gandhi. As such I had and have no sympathy for the Muslims in the valley because they showed no sympathy for the Hindus there either.
However, the victims of insurgency are always widespread not just in Kashmir but in the north east and any other place as well. I say again, if you look at the steps that Urstruly mentions, and ignore the ``blame game`` and rhetoric, those steps are essential.
What, amongs the ten actions that are mentioned, would you object to? BTW, growing up as a military brat, to me the Armed Forces are my family`s bread and butter and I would never go against them. I also know however that excess, not as policy but in implementation of counter insurgency, is routine. The healing touch can and does provide wonders in winning over a hostile populace. There is a huge difference in the way the army is percieved in Shia areas where recruitment in to JAK Rifles has taken place and Srinagar where the individual is humiliated in routine cordon and search operations.
#98 Posted by Sobia on March 13, 2003 11:18:18 pm
re: hxn
my dear, if i wanted to engage in an argument with you, i would`ve done so a long time back...but because there`s no point reasoning with idiots like you, i didn`t say much then and i won`t say much now. It`s a little like going around in circles. People like you are so narrow-minded and blinded in your hatred that you`re not willing to look at anything other than what suits your own interest. Oh and please go on and tell me you don`t want to learn about secularism and hatred from a Pakistani because that`s what you`re so good at, aren`t you? Telling Pakistanis just how wonderful, secular and liberal you are. Anyhow, cheers..I don`t think I`m going to exchanging any more posts with you or others like you.
my dear, if i wanted to engage in an argument with you, i would`ve done so a long time back...but because there`s no point reasoning with idiots like you, i didn`t say much then and i won`t say much now. It`s a little like going around in circles. People like you are so narrow-minded and blinded in your hatred that you`re not willing to look at anything other than what suits your own interest. Oh and please go on and tell me you don`t want to learn about secularism and hatred from a Pakistani because that`s what you`re so good at, aren`t you? Telling Pakistanis just how wonderful, secular and liberal you are. Anyhow, cheers..I don`t think I`m going to exchanging any more posts with you or others like you.
#97 Posted by rsridhar on March 13, 2003 5:49:33 pm
re:#89 by stuka
The point i am trying to make is this: there are crappy things going on on both sides of the border, so why gloat over your enemy`s weaknesses? I did not start this argument. Most of the time i am the respondent to some stupid thing being said on the chowk.
I only pointed out blasphemy laws, honor killings, weak kneed response to terrorism as things Pak cannot be proud of. No clear cut laws exist in the defense of the accused in the first 2 cases. Instead of saying this is all just crap, realise that something is wrong here and at least try to be critical. When Godhra and other such bad things happen in India, at least most of us Indians on chowk were very critical.
Sridhar
The point i am trying to make is this: there are crappy things going on on both sides of the border, so why gloat over your enemy`s weaknesses? I did not start this argument. Most of the time i am the respondent to some stupid thing being said on the chowk.
I only pointed out blasphemy laws, honor killings, weak kneed response to terrorism as things Pak cannot be proud of. No clear cut laws exist in the defense of the accused in the first 2 cases. Instead of saying this is all just crap, realise that something is wrong here and at least try to be critical. When Godhra and other such bad things happen in India, at least most of us Indians on chowk were very critical.
Sridhar
#96 Posted by hxn on March 13, 2003 5:49:33 pm
sobia # 5
thanks for the shout out...its good to see you`re still smarting from the verbal thrashing you deserved over your unconscionable remarks on the slaying of daniel pearl.
shouldn`t you be somewhere justifying a palestinian sucide bombing or something?
thanks for the shout out...its good to see you`re still smarting from the verbal thrashing you deserved over your unconscionable remarks on the slaying of daniel pearl.
shouldn`t you be somewhere justifying a palestinian sucide bombing or something?
#95 Posted by pmishra2 on March 13, 2003 2:19:55 pm
#89 Stuka
Do you really think that the situation in J&K today is because of ``indian oppression``? I do not.
I have lived in J&K. My mother was born in Srinagar. Since the late 80`s her (and my) extended family has been ethnically cleansed and pushed out to the south near Udhampur and Jammu. Livelihood and homes have been abandoned. I have been witness to the systematic murder and terrorization of minorities and moderates. I still remember the murder of the muslim Kashmir University VC from the 80s because he ``dared`` to question the use of violence against non-military people.
Let us get real about the situation there. Overwhelming indian military presence and occassional over-response is a response to jihadism and violence. The latter is supported openly throughout Pakistan and the Gulf area. Both must be addressed in any reasonable discussion. Otherwise, we are talking about one-sided propaganda.
Urstruly`s comments are no different from my offering to be your friend provided you pay me back the $10,000 US you owe me. That was my point.
Do you really think that the situation in J&K today is because of ``indian oppression``? I do not.
I have lived in J&K. My mother was born in Srinagar. Since the late 80`s her (and my) extended family has been ethnically cleansed and pushed out to the south near Udhampur and Jammu. Livelihood and homes have been abandoned. I have been witness to the systematic murder and terrorization of minorities and moderates. I still remember the murder of the muslim Kashmir University VC from the 80s because he ``dared`` to question the use of violence against non-military people.
Let us get real about the situation there. Overwhelming indian military presence and occassional over-response is a response to jihadism and violence. The latter is supported openly throughout Pakistan and the Gulf area. Both must be addressed in any reasonable discussion. Otherwise, we are talking about one-sided propaganda.
Urstruly`s comments are no different from my offering to be your friend provided you pay me back the $10,000 US you owe me. That was my point.
#94 Posted by rsaxena on March 13, 2003 2:19:54 pm
re: arjunm
{India must? Or else what}
..or else they will whine and cry like they have for the past 50 years, and once in a while find a farceanna to cry with them....
{India must? Or else what}
..or else they will whine and cry like they have for the past 50 years, and once in a while find a farceanna to cry with them....
#93 Posted by stuka on March 13, 2003 2:19:54 pm
The following is a 10 point agenda suggested for Kashmir. As an Indian and a confirmed Hawk, I will put forth my perspective.
``1. India must declare absolute amnesty to all freedom fighter groups with absolutely no strings attached. Who doesn`t want to live in peace.? This action will help separate those who want peace from those who dont. ``
This can be done for all militants who belong to Indian Kashmir. The same can not and as matter of principle should not be extended to Pakistanis and Afghans. Implementation of this step will make clear the role of ``guest militants`` as well build bridges with alienated Kashmiris.
2. India must formally apologize to all Kashmiris for inflicting so much misery and pain to its people using state aparatus.
Should be done to Kashmir as well as Punjab. The apology should not be for counter insurgency operations per se, but the human rights abuses that have occured alongside.
3. India must specifically apologize to all victims of rape by its army and law enforcement agencies.
While I hoighly doubt the incidence of rape in a numerical sense as propounded by Islamic and Pakistani groups, the fact is that these incidents have occured. Apology and compensation to maximum possible extent should be given.
4. India must establish rape crisis centers all around Kashmir to provide releif to the rape victims. Hindu social workers, preferably women, from mainland India must come to Kashmir to heel the emotional wounds that these unfortunate women have suffered.
As related to previous point, the above can and should be done. The social workers religion should not be an issue, and if it is not, majority of the women will be Hindu. It will allow empathy with victims and a sense of acceptance to all.
5. India must establish special victim units to provide relief to the orphans and widows of those Kashmiris whose fathers and husbands died fighting for freedom of their homeland.
The same has been done in Punjab by NGOs and can be done in Kashmir as well.
6. India must immediately abolish the draconian law such as Disturbed Area act of 1990, which gives absolute authority to Indian Army to murder or rape any one without impunity.
The language used above is misleading. No Indian law, including the diturbed areas act, allows rape. The law can be repealed following the implementation of a ceasefire with militant groups.
7. India must give Kashmir a special economic rebuild package, for the next ten years to cover all the loses that Kashmiris have suffered at the hand of state apparatus.
Can be done without any problem.
8. All the illegally established torture cells, interogation canters must immediately be shut down all acreoss Kashmir.
This is a natural consequence of an end to insurgency through ceasefire.
9. The death squads of Indian Army who hunt for freedom fighters, and set the villages abalze when can`t find them must be called off.
See above.
10. International Human rights orgs must be allowed into Kashmir to monitor all these actions.
See above.
Urstruly`s points cannot be deemed objectionable by any fair minded person. Previous ceasefires have failed however because meaningful talks have not followed. This has happened because India and Pakistan do not even have a vision of a solution, unlike the Israelis and Palestenians. If a high level vision is shared, then a ceasefire followed by above steps are a natural consequence.
``1. India must declare absolute amnesty to all freedom fighter groups with absolutely no strings attached. Who doesn`t want to live in peace.? This action will help separate those who want peace from those who dont. ``
This can be done for all militants who belong to Indian Kashmir. The same can not and as matter of principle should not be extended to Pakistanis and Afghans. Implementation of this step will make clear the role of ``guest militants`` as well build bridges with alienated Kashmiris.
2. India must formally apologize to all Kashmiris for inflicting so much misery and pain to its people using state aparatus.
Should be done to Kashmir as well as Punjab. The apology should not be for counter insurgency operations per se, but the human rights abuses that have occured alongside.
3. India must specifically apologize to all victims of rape by its army and law enforcement agencies.
While I hoighly doubt the incidence of rape in a numerical sense as propounded by Islamic and Pakistani groups, the fact is that these incidents have occured. Apology and compensation to maximum possible extent should be given.
4. India must establish rape crisis centers all around Kashmir to provide releif to the rape victims. Hindu social workers, preferably women, from mainland India must come to Kashmir to heel the emotional wounds that these unfortunate women have suffered.
As related to previous point, the above can and should be done. The social workers religion should not be an issue, and if it is not, majority of the women will be Hindu. It will allow empathy with victims and a sense of acceptance to all.
5. India must establish special victim units to provide relief to the orphans and widows of those Kashmiris whose fathers and husbands died fighting for freedom of their homeland.
The same has been done in Punjab by NGOs and can be done in Kashmir as well.
6. India must immediately abolish the draconian law such as Disturbed Area act of 1990, which gives absolute authority to Indian Army to murder or rape any one without impunity.
The language used above is misleading. No Indian law, including the diturbed areas act, allows rape. The law can be repealed following the implementation of a ceasefire with militant groups.
7. India must give Kashmir a special economic rebuild package, for the next ten years to cover all the loses that Kashmiris have suffered at the hand of state apparatus.
Can be done without any problem.
8. All the illegally established torture cells, interogation canters must immediately be shut down all acreoss Kashmir.
This is a natural consequence of an end to insurgency through ceasefire.
9. The death squads of Indian Army who hunt for freedom fighters, and set the villages abalze when can`t find them must be called off.
See above.
10. International Human rights orgs must be allowed into Kashmir to monitor all these actions.
See above.
Urstruly`s points cannot be deemed objectionable by any fair minded person. Previous ceasefires have failed however because meaningful talks have not followed. This has happened because India and Pakistan do not even have a vision of a solution, unlike the Israelis and Palestenians. If a high level vision is shared, then a ceasefire followed by above steps are a natural consequence.
#92 Posted by Tipu on March 13, 2003 12:44:06 pm
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#91 Posted by Urstruly on March 13, 2003 12:41:23 pm
Arjunm#88
I apologize for my strong language. Please try to look at neither the messenger nor the medium (words) but the message.
#90 Posted by Urstruly on March 13, 2003 11:28:33 am
Dear rsridhar
I am not pointing towards shortcomings of India, as you put it. As a matter of fact I am pointing towards the strengths of India that it can have. For a second try to ignore that what I wrote in my #79, is written by an enemy of yours; instead try to imagine that it is written by a human being. I am not pushing anyone`s political agenda. I cannot be ``an agent`` of Pakistani government, a government that I despise so much more than you do.
If you look at the things impartially, you will see that it all boils down to a simple fact called ``admission of guilt``. Admission of guilt is not a bad thing, it is actually one of the greatest things that can happen to one, because it sets you free. I am not an idealist, I dont speak of idealism. Dont you see, that admission of guilt in the Truth & Reconciliation Commission of South Africa has set those people free from decades of misery, fear, and attrocities. It has also earned them a unique respect among the community of nations. It has made them great. Please give others the right to live, it will set you free also.
#89 Posted by stuka on March 13, 2003 11:09:07 am
PMishra2``
God knows I have abused UrsTruly enough on this very website. However, the points that he makes demand nothing for Pakistan. They are simply steps to win over Kashmiris who we like to call Indian citizens. In reality there may be practical issues to deal with. Implementation is not easy. But, in principle, I see nothing wrong with any of the points he makes.
Rsridhar:
It will take me all of three minutes to print equally crappy stuff about India.
What is being ignored here is the reality that exists in India.
I agree with Sameer`s concept which he propounded in another board. The VHP people have the freedom to think as they do. The SIMI people have the freedom to think as they do. The government`s job is to mantain the sancitity of Law and Order. If some VHP goon smacks a woman around, the cops should have arrested him.
The only blame I assign in this incident is to the cops.
God knows I have abused UrsTruly enough on this very website. However, the points that he makes demand nothing for Pakistan. They are simply steps to win over Kashmiris who we like to call Indian citizens. In reality there may be practical issues to deal with. Implementation is not easy. But, in principle, I see nothing wrong with any of the points he makes.
Rsridhar:
It will take me all of three minutes to print equally crappy stuff about India.
What is being ignored here is the reality that exists in India.
I agree with Sameer`s concept which he propounded in another board. The VHP people have the freedom to think as they do. The SIMI people have the freedom to think as they do. The government`s job is to mantain the sancitity of Law and Order. If some VHP goon smacks a woman around, the cops should have arrested him.
The only blame I assign in this incident is to the cops.
#88 Posted by arjun_m on March 13, 2003 10:28:53 am
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#87 Posted by rsridhar on March 13, 2003 9:56:42 am
re: The land of the ``impure``
Chowk`s mullah would have us believe that India is a bad place and Pak is a paradise.
Let us see what others are saying about Pakistan:
1. A Sindhi Pakistani`s take on future of Pakistan:
``Should Paksitan be broken up?``
http://yangtze.cs.uiuc.edu/~jamali/sindh/res/breakup.html
Excerpts:
``Dissolution of Pakistan will largely bring things back into their natural national and ethnic boundaries. The Pushtun areas of Pakistan belong with the newly liberated Afghanistan. Kashmiris in India already enjoy numerous unique protections, e.g. against encroachment by migration from other parts of India. A unified Kashmir will be able to negotiate ways of maintaining its identity in India. Distinct ethnic regions in the Pakistani occupied part of the former kingdom of Kashmir, such as Baltistan and Gilgit, could enjoy greater autonomy.
A successor Pakistani Punjabi state would be far easier to contain. Bounded within plains that are easy to penetrate and police, stripped of 80% of the resources now consumed by its military, it would be far less menacing. Ironically, freed of its militaristic pretensions, it could enjoy greater economic growth and prosperity in the long run by embracing a more peaceful ideology.``
This is a Pakistani who is advocating the dissolution of Pakistan. Not even Dilip D`Souza or that other commie woman (of GOST fame) would write advocating dissolution of India.
2. The classic Jim Hoagland article. He says Paksitan is the most dangerous place on earth.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A8422-2002Oct24¬Found=true
Excerpts from the above article:
``Pervez Musharraf`s Pakistan is a base from which nuclear technology, fundamentalist terrorism and life-destroying heroin are spread around the globe. American and French citizens and Christians of any nationality, including Pakistani, are indiscriminately slaughtered by fanatics as occasion arises. This nuclear-armed country is in part ungoverned, in part ungovernable.``
3. Pakistan`s contribution to world peace:
I need not elaborate on this. I have posted many links to the support of terrorism by the Paki elite and Army junta, including ISI. Pakistanis being implicated in terrorist plots the world over is a testimony to the peace-loving nature of Pakis.
4. Judicial system in Pak:
Lest we forget, let us revisit the horror that was perpetrated upon
Sarwar, a 29-year-old mother of two, was seeking a divorce from her violently abusive husband. She was killed in broad daylight by her kith and kin in her lawyer`s office.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/pakistan020805_honor.html
The question is: where are the killers of Sarwar today?
5. More honor killings in ``the land of pure``:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/pakistan020805_honorcases.html
Case studies: (i hope YLH, studying Law in Pak now, is taking notes)
a) June 22, 2002: A tribal council in the village of Mirwali in the eastern Pakistani province of Punjab rules that Mukhtaran Bibi, a 30-year-old woman from the impoverished Gujar tribe, be gang raped as punishment for her younger brother`s alleged affair with a woman of the landed Mastoi tribe. Witnesses say after she was publicly gang raped, Bibi was forced to walk through the village naked. Bibi`s brother has denied having an affair with the woman and has told a special anti-terrorist court that he was sodomized by some members of the Mastoi tribe and then accused of having the relationship as a cover-up.
b) May 16, 1999: Adbul Ghaffar and his wife Shabana Bibi are abducted at gunpoint from a sessions court in Punjab by a group of about 16 armed men, several of whom were reportedly identified as belonging to the woman`s family. Ghaffar and Bibi were allegedly married against their families` wishes and Bibi`s family had filed an abduction charge against Ghaffar. The couple was waiting inside the court to provide documents and statements that they were legally married when the abduction occurred, according to witnesses, in broad daylight in the presence of dozens of passively watching security officers. The couple has since been missing.
c) May 1999: In Britain, the Nottingham crown court sentences a Pakistani immigrant and her eldest son to life imprisonment for murdering the woman`s daughter, 19-year-old Rukhsana Naz, a pregnant mother of two children, in Derby in March 1998. Naz had reportedly ``dishonored`` her family, who lived in Britain, by having a ``sexual relationship outside marriage.`` Prosecutors told the court the brother strangled his 19-year-old sister while her mother held her down.
d) March 1999: Sixteen-year-old Jamilla (last name not known) was shot dead after a tribal council ruled that she had dishonored her tribe and passed a verdict calling for her death. According to reports, Jamilla had been repeatedly raped by a local official, but when her uncle filed a complaint with the police, the girl was arrested and turned over to her tribe who then put the matter up before a tribal council.
e) January 6, 1999: Ghazala (last name unknown) was reportedly set on fire by her brother in Joharabad, Punjab, on suspicion of having an affair with a neighbor. Local media reports said the charred and naked body lay unattended on the street for two hours as nobody wanted to get involved in the incident.
f) August 1998: Zarina and her alleged lover Suleiman were shot dead by her three brothers in a village in the northern Pakistani district of Larkana. In an interview with a local paper, Zarina`s mother was quoted as saying: ``There is no grief in honor, it was right to kill them. They [her sons] saw them together and they killed them.``
g) April 6, 1992: Samia Samar was shot dead in her lawyer`s office in Lahore. Samar was seeking a divorce from her violently abusive husband, but her family was against it. A month after fleeing her native Peshawar for Lahore, she agreed to meet with her mother at her lawyer`s office. Her mother arrived with an uncle and another male who pulled out a gun, put it to Samar`s head and shot her dead.
6. Status of women in Paksitan:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/2002/pakistan04172002.html
7. Status of journalists in Pakistan:
A short answer: worse than a stray dog. Read the following for the long answer:
http://www.cpj.org/attacks01/asia01/pakistan.html
Excerpts:
``In March, Shakil Shaikh, chief reporter for the English-language daily The News, was abducted around midday by a group of five unidentified men riding in a jeep. His captors bound and blindfolded him, and then beat him for several hours, saying, ``You write too much. Now you will not write anymore.``
``Rajiv Chandrasekaran, a U.S. citizen who works for The Washington Post, reported from Pakistan for a couple of months without serious incident. But when his visa came up for renewal toward the end of November, authorities simply delayed processing it. When the visa expired, officials ordered him out of the country, citing unspecified ``security implications.`` Philip Bennett, the Post`s assistant managing editor for foreign news, protested the government`s action, calling it ``unexplained and unjustified.``
``On June 3, police in Abbottabad registered a case against Yousaf and two editors at the Urdu-language daily Mohasib, charging them with blasphemy
The charges arose from a May 29 Mohasib article titled ``The Beard and Islam,`` by Yousaf, a well-known poet and author. The article contested the view of certain Muslim clerics that a beardless man cannot be a good Muslim. The piece also criticized the exploitation of religious faith for personal gain.``
Chowk`s mullah has nothing much to rave and rant about. Pak lost the last vestige of dignity when it lost a game of cricket to its arch-rival, India. Now, all that the chowk mullahs can do is to point out to India`s shortcomings. Ponder for a moment. The mullah, even while criticising India in his post # 34, quotes home ministry sources in India. That surely testifies to India`s free press. Besides, he is worried about D`souza`s safety. Only in the last 2 years, 2 high profile journalists from Pakistan (one being Sehbai of SATribune fame) have migrated to US due to discrimination in Pak. Need i say more?
Sridhar
Chowk`s mullah would have us believe that India is a bad place and Pak is a paradise.
Let us see what others are saying about Pakistan:
1. A Sindhi Pakistani`s take on future of Pakistan:
``Should Paksitan be broken up?``
http://yangtze.cs.uiuc.edu/~jamali/sindh/res/breakup.html
Excerpts:
``Dissolution of Pakistan will largely bring things back into their natural national and ethnic boundaries. The Pushtun areas of Pakistan belong with the newly liberated Afghanistan. Kashmiris in India already enjoy numerous unique protections, e.g. against encroachment by migration from other parts of India. A unified Kashmir will be able to negotiate ways of maintaining its identity in India. Distinct ethnic regions in the Pakistani occupied part of the former kingdom of Kashmir, such as Baltistan and Gilgit, could enjoy greater autonomy.
A successor Pakistani Punjabi state would be far easier to contain. Bounded within plains that are easy to penetrate and police, stripped of 80% of the resources now consumed by its military, it would be far less menacing. Ironically, freed of its militaristic pretensions, it could enjoy greater economic growth and prosperity in the long run by embracing a more peaceful ideology.``
This is a Pakistani who is advocating the dissolution of Pakistan. Not even Dilip D`Souza or that other commie woman (of GOST fame) would write advocating dissolution of India.
2. The classic Jim Hoagland article. He says Paksitan is the most dangerous place on earth.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A8422-2002Oct24¬Found=true
Excerpts from the above article:
``Pervez Musharraf`s Pakistan is a base from which nuclear technology, fundamentalist terrorism and life-destroying heroin are spread around the globe. American and French citizens and Christians of any nationality, including Pakistani, are indiscriminately slaughtered by fanatics as occasion arises. This nuclear-armed country is in part ungoverned, in part ungovernable.``
3. Pakistan`s contribution to world peace:
I need not elaborate on this. I have posted many links to the support of terrorism by the Paki elite and Army junta, including ISI. Pakistanis being implicated in terrorist plots the world over is a testimony to the peace-loving nature of Pakis.
4. Judicial system in Pak:
Lest we forget, let us revisit the horror that was perpetrated upon
Sarwar, a 29-year-old mother of two, was seeking a divorce from her violently abusive husband. She was killed in broad daylight by her kith and kin in her lawyer`s office.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/pakistan020805_honor.html
The question is: where are the killers of Sarwar today?
5. More honor killings in ``the land of pure``:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/pakistan020805_honorcases.html
Case studies: (i hope YLH, studying Law in Pak now, is taking notes)
a) June 22, 2002: A tribal council in the village of Mirwali in the eastern Pakistani province of Punjab rules that Mukhtaran Bibi, a 30-year-old woman from the impoverished Gujar tribe, be gang raped as punishment for her younger brother`s alleged affair with a woman of the landed Mastoi tribe. Witnesses say after she was publicly gang raped, Bibi was forced to walk through the village naked. Bibi`s brother has denied having an affair with the woman and has told a special anti-terrorist court that he was sodomized by some members of the Mastoi tribe and then accused of having the relationship as a cover-up.
b) May 16, 1999: Adbul Ghaffar and his wife Shabana Bibi are abducted at gunpoint from a sessions court in Punjab by a group of about 16 armed men, several of whom were reportedly identified as belonging to the woman`s family. Ghaffar and Bibi were allegedly married against their families` wishes and Bibi`s family had filed an abduction charge against Ghaffar. The couple was waiting inside the court to provide documents and statements that they were legally married when the abduction occurred, according to witnesses, in broad daylight in the presence of dozens of passively watching security officers. The couple has since been missing.
c) May 1999: In Britain, the Nottingham crown court sentences a Pakistani immigrant and her eldest son to life imprisonment for murdering the woman`s daughter, 19-year-old Rukhsana Naz, a pregnant mother of two children, in Derby in March 1998. Naz had reportedly ``dishonored`` her family, who lived in Britain, by having a ``sexual relationship outside marriage.`` Prosecutors told the court the brother strangled his 19-year-old sister while her mother held her down.
d) March 1999: Sixteen-year-old Jamilla (last name not known) was shot dead after a tribal council ruled that she had dishonored her tribe and passed a verdict calling for her death. According to reports, Jamilla had been repeatedly raped by a local official, but when her uncle filed a complaint with the police, the girl was arrested and turned over to her tribe who then put the matter up before a tribal council.
e) January 6, 1999: Ghazala (last name unknown) was reportedly set on fire by her brother in Joharabad, Punjab, on suspicion of having an affair with a neighbor. Local media reports said the charred and naked body lay unattended on the street for two hours as nobody wanted to get involved in the incident.
f) August 1998: Zarina and her alleged lover Suleiman were shot dead by her three brothers in a village in the northern Pakistani district of Larkana. In an interview with a local paper, Zarina`s mother was quoted as saying: ``There is no grief in honor, it was right to kill them. They [her sons] saw them together and they killed them.``
g) April 6, 1992: Samia Samar was shot dead in her lawyer`s office in Lahore. Samar was seeking a divorce from her violently abusive husband, but her family was against it. A month after fleeing her native Peshawar for Lahore, she agreed to meet with her mother at her lawyer`s office. Her mother arrived with an uncle and another male who pulled out a gun, put it to Samar`s head and shot her dead.
6. Status of women in Paksitan:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/2002/pakistan04172002.html
7. Status of journalists in Pakistan:
A short answer: worse than a stray dog. Read the following for the long answer:
http://www.cpj.org/attacks01/asia01/pakistan.html
Excerpts:
``In March, Shakil Shaikh, chief reporter for the English-language daily The News, was abducted around midday by a group of five unidentified men riding in a jeep. His captors bound and blindfolded him, and then beat him for several hours, saying, ``You write too much. Now you will not write anymore.``
``Rajiv Chandrasekaran, a U.S. citizen who works for The Washington Post, reported from Pakistan for a couple of months without serious incident. But when his visa came up for renewal toward the end of November, authorities simply delayed processing it. When the visa expired, officials ordered him out of the country, citing unspecified ``security implications.`` Philip Bennett, the Post`s assistant managing editor for foreign news, protested the government`s action, calling it ``unexplained and unjustified.``
``On June 3, police in Abbottabad registered a case against Yousaf and two editors at the Urdu-language daily Mohasib, charging them with blasphemy
The charges arose from a May 29 Mohasib article titled ``The Beard and Islam,`` by Yousaf, a well-known poet and author. The article contested the view of certain Muslim clerics that a beardless man cannot be a good Muslim. The piece also criticized the exploitation of religious faith for personal gain.``
Chowk`s mullah has nothing much to rave and rant about. Pak lost the last vestige of dignity when it lost a game of cricket to its arch-rival, India. Now, all that the chowk mullahs can do is to point out to India`s shortcomings. Ponder for a moment. The mullah, even while criticising India in his post # 34, quotes home ministry sources in India. That surely testifies to India`s free press. Besides, he is worried about D`souza`s safety. Only in the last 2 years, 2 high profile journalists from Pakistan (one being Sehbai of SATribune fame) have migrated to US due to discrimination in Pak. Need i say more?
Sridhar
#86 Posted by pmishra2 on March 13, 2003 9:45:01 am
#79 Urstruly
Here is my ten point program for friendship with you. Once you agree to this we are going to be the best possible friends. See, I am such a generous person !!! I respect you and wish you well.
(1) You and your family will serve me hot meals at the following
times: 8AM, 1PM and 7PM. Sometimes I may need a snack at 4PM. All of this food must be prepared and served at your home.
(2) I may bring between 2-10 friends with me for these meals. No advance notice will be given.
(3) I would like to use your bank account for money. At the minimum there should $10,000 US or equivalent available AT ALL TIMES. I should be able to withdraw upto $25,000 per week.
(4) I will need my car cleaned on a weekly basis. This must be accomplished on a weekday as you will be busy with other choires on the weekend. Please arrange to have you or your family clean my car on a weekday evening between 7 and 10PM.
(5) I will require entertainment at your home on the weekend. Permissible items include light comedy, serious drama, skits, skecthes, etc. These must take place for at least 1 hour; every weekend there must be a minimum of two such events.
(6) I generate approximately 10Kgs laundry per week. You and your family (or their agents -- look how kind I am !) will be responsible for washing my laundry. Whites MUST be separated from others and bleached.
(7) My home must also be cleaned regularly. You and your family (or an agent appointed by you --- look how I am overflowing with affection and gentleness!!!) will be completely responsible for keeping my home cleaned. It MUST be cleaned at least once a week. The cleaning must include washing out all bathrooms, kitchen floor etc.
I look forward to your response. As soon as you agree, I will be ready to be your best friends.
Here is my ten point program for friendship with you. Once you agree to this we are going to be the best possible friends. See, I am such a generous person !!! I respect you and wish you well.
(1) You and your family will serve me hot meals at the following
times: 8AM, 1PM and 7PM. Sometimes I may need a snack at 4PM. All of this food must be prepared and served at your home.
(2) I may bring between 2-10 friends with me for these meals. No advance notice will be given.
(3) I would like to use your bank account for money. At the minimum there should $10,000 US or equivalent available AT ALL TIMES. I should be able to withdraw upto $25,000 per week.
(4) I will need my car cleaned on a weekly basis. This must be accomplished on a weekday as you will be busy with other choires on the weekend. Please arrange to have you or your family clean my car on a weekday evening between 7 and 10PM.
(5) I will require entertainment at your home on the weekend. Permissible items include light comedy, serious drama, skits, skecthes, etc. These must take place for at least 1 hour; every weekend there must be a minimum of two such events.
(6) I generate approximately 10Kgs laundry per week. You and your family (or their agents -- look how kind I am !) will be responsible for washing my laundry. Whites MUST be separated from others and bleached.
(7) My home must also be cleaned regularly. You and your family (or an agent appointed by you --- look how I am overflowing with affection and gentleness!!!) will be completely responsible for keeping my home cleaned. It MUST be cleaned at least once a week. The cleaning must include washing out all bathrooms, kitchen floor etc.
I look forward to your response. As soon as you agree, I will be ready to be your best friends.
#85 Posted by pmishra2 on March 13, 2003 9:12:31 am
#83 InYourFace
I have no problem with LK Advani`s good ideas. For example, Advani has said that there is a need to improve internal security in India thru better policing and intelligence. I think this is an excellent idea. I support it strongly.
Murli Manohar Joshi has proposed to upgrade most of the RECs to IIT level. I think this is an excellent idea. He also wants History books ``not to offend`` people. I think this is a bad idea.
I disagree with the BJP`s temple-obsession. I agree with their approach to opening up the economy.
What you are suggesting is that we should reject everything come from a source, because there are issues with that source. I would say this is not reasonable even with extremists like Bukhari or Thackeray. Even they make suggestions that can be helpful.
Instead, we need to have a centred view of things that are based on facts and logic. One that understands that all politicians behave a certain way, all journalists have certain biases etc. These are humans not gods!
Similarly with Dilip`s writings; he wrote an excellent article which I support. It does not mean that I support every article he ever wrote or will write. It is ridiculous to take such an approach and leads nowhere. Good ideas and insights arise from many sources.....
I have no problem with LK Advani`s good ideas. For example, Advani has said that there is a need to improve internal security in India thru better policing and intelligence. I think this is an excellent idea. I support it strongly.
Murli Manohar Joshi has proposed to upgrade most of the RECs to IIT level. I think this is an excellent idea. He also wants History books ``not to offend`` people. I think this is a bad idea.
I disagree with the BJP`s temple-obsession. I agree with their approach to opening up the economy.
What you are suggesting is that we should reject everything come from a source, because there are issues with that source. I would say this is not reasonable even with extremists like Bukhari or Thackeray. Even they make suggestions that can be helpful.
Instead, we need to have a centred view of things that are based on facts and logic. One that understands that all politicians behave a certain way, all journalists have certain biases etc. These are humans not gods!
Similarly with Dilip`s writings; he wrote an excellent article which I support. It does not mean that I support every article he ever wrote or will write. It is ridiculous to take such an approach and leads nowhere. Good ideas and insights arise from many sources.....
#84 Posted by stuka on March 13, 2003 8:54:47 am
RSaxena:
``....in new york city, we have a dilip d`souza named al sharpton...the similarities between the two are uncanny... ``
Really??? Is there a physical similarity?? Where did you see this guy? I mean the author, not Sharpton. Big Al`s lost some weight by the way.
``....in new york city, we have a dilip d`souza named al sharpton...the similarities between the two are uncanny... ``
Really??? Is there a physical similarity?? Where did you see this guy? I mean the author, not Sharpton. Big Al`s lost some weight by the way.
#83 Posted by Urstruly on March 13, 2003 8:20:14 am
Dilip #64
Though you stood shy of uttering the ``K`` word in this context, yet your reply is acceptable to me. You are on right track.
By the way, I didn`t write my last post to win an argument from you. As my posts at tens of other boards at Chowk may suggest that I am impartial to the idea of an independent Kashmir or a Pakistani Kashmir. India may very well keep the Kashmir that it has. I just wish that it stops murder and rape of Kashmiris using the state aparatus. On more than one boards I have suggested that the ace to solve the Kashmir issue is up India`s sleeve. Some of the suggestions that I have made are:
1. India must declare absolute amnesty to all freedom fighter groups with absolutely no strings attached. Who doesn`t want to live in peace.? This action will help separate those who want peace from those who dont.
2. India must formally apologize to all Kashmiris for inflicting so much misery and pain to its people using state aparatus.
3. India must specifically apologize to all victims of rape by its army and law enforcement agencies.
4. India must establish rape crisis centers all around Kashmir to provide releif to the rape victims. Hindu social workers, preferably women, from mainland India must come to Kashmir to heel the emotional wounds that these unfortunate women have suffered.
5. India must establish special victim units to provide relief to the orphans and widows of those Kashmiris whose fathers and husbands died fighting for freedom of their homeland.
6. India must immediately abolish the draconian law such as Disturbed Area act of 1990, which gives absolute authority to Indian Army to murder or rape any one without impunity.
7. India must give Kashmir a special economic rebuild package, for the next ten years to cover all the loses that Kashmiris have suffered at the hand of state apparatus.
8. All the illegally established torture cells, interogation canters must immediately be shut down all acreoss Kashmir.
9. The death squads of Indian Army who hunt for freedom fighters, and set the villages abalze when can`t find them must be called off.
10. International Human rights orgs must be allowed into Kashmir to monitor all these actions.
This is my agenda regarding Kashmir. Now please tell me how it is going to make India weak? On the contrary it will make India strong. Economically, it is lot cheaper than keeping a 700K strong army practically sitting at every household in Kashmir. This is human agenda. Some parts of it can be acted upon by the consciencious citizens of mainland India, without government`s help. But as journalist and a human rights activist, your best course of action should be to spread awareness, I have great confidence in human conscience. People can change the world.
#82 Posted by arjun_m on March 13, 2003 8:20:14 am
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#81 Posted by rsaxena on March 13, 2003 8:20:14 am
re sobia
(this article is totally exposing saxena and troupe...for all their talk of tolerance, secularism blah blah blah, )
....secularism and tolerance work both ways dear...secularism does not mean a minority burns a train load of the majority and expects not to incite retaliatory violence and riots...you needn`t look farther than the LA riots to understand the inflammatory nature of minority-majority dynamics even in secular countries....
...of course i wouldn`t expect you living in pakistan to understand the concepts too well...
(this article is totally exposing saxena and troupe...for all their talk of tolerance, secularism blah blah blah, )
....secularism and tolerance work both ways dear...secularism does not mean a minority burns a train load of the majority and expects not to incite retaliatory violence and riots...you needn`t look farther than the LA riots to understand the inflammatory nature of minority-majority dynamics even in secular countries....
...of course i wouldn`t expect you living in pakistan to understand the concepts too well...
#80 Posted by rsaxena on March 13, 2003 8:20:14 am
re pmishra
{I would urge all interactors to focus on THIS article and not on some other article that Dilip may/may not have written. }
...why?..how can one give credibility to a piece of writing knowing it comes from someone who has a one-track agenda and is more likely than not to be presenting a one-sided view?...that is like asking iraqis to believe a CNN report...
{I would urge all interactors to focus on THIS article and not on some other article that Dilip may/may not have written. }
...why?..how can one give credibility to a piece of writing knowing it comes from someone who has a one-track agenda and is more likely than not to be presenting a one-sided view?...that is like asking iraqis to believe a CNN report...
#79 Posted by InYourFace on March 13, 2003 8:20:14 am
#78 by pmishra2 :
``I would urge all interactors to focus on THIS article and not on some other article that Dilip may/may not have written.``
It doesn`t matter because Dilip D`Souza has no credibility. Just like L. K.Advani doesn`t have any credibilty when he tries to moderate his views on hindutva (for eg. LKA aplogised for gujrath).
Majaority of Indians don`t care what the likes of dilip, farzana, praful bidwai, pankaj mishra or roy have to say.
I wish they learn to gain some trust ... because they do have a point to make and I glad that Indian newspapers are stillpublishing them.
``I would urge all interactors to focus on THIS article and not on some other article that Dilip may/may not have written.``
It doesn`t matter because Dilip D`Souza has no credibility. Just like L. K.Advani doesn`t have any credibilty when he tries to moderate his views on hindutva (for eg. LKA aplogised for gujrath).
Majaority of Indians don`t care what the likes of dilip, farzana, praful bidwai, pankaj mishra or roy have to say.
I wish they learn to gain some trust ... because they do have a point to make and I glad that Indian newspapers are stillpublishing them.
#78 Posted by sadna on March 13, 2003 7:37:13 am
Dilip,
You didnot answer my question in #14 in about your opinion about the CPM bandh earlier this week in Kerala? The genesis of the bandh was this. There was a demonstration, the demonstrators killed a policeman, were going to kill another, so the police opened fire and demonstrators got injured. So the CPM called a bandh to protest police action.
On bandh day, my family members had to take the risk of driving across town so that my nephew would not miss his 12th board exams. Have you ever been in a CPM bandh ? I have, on one occasion during a work assignment when we had to be ferried in a Indian Navy vehicle with armed escort so that we could attend to our jobs.
Some months ago there was a demonstration iin front of the secretariat demanding to free Madani, prime accused in the Coimbatore blasts case, I beleive. Apparently this demonstration was to remind UDF of its election promises in this connection. Well, many cars were destroyed in this demonstration and people were hurt.
Any comments on all this?
You didnot answer my question in #14 in about your opinion about the CPM bandh earlier this week in Kerala? The genesis of the bandh was this. There was a demonstration, the demonstrators killed a policeman, were going to kill another, so the police opened fire and demonstrators got injured. So the CPM called a bandh to protest police action.
On bandh day, my family members had to take the risk of driving across town so that my nephew would not miss his 12th board exams. Have you ever been in a CPM bandh ? I have, on one occasion during a work assignment when we had to be ferried in a Indian Navy vehicle with armed escort so that we could attend to our jobs.
Some months ago there was a demonstration iin front of the secretariat demanding to free Madani, prime accused in the Coimbatore blasts case, I beleive. Apparently this demonstration was to remind UDF of its election promises in this connection. Well, many cars were destroyed in this demonstration and people were hurt.
Any comments on all this?
#77 Posted by pmishra2 on March 13, 2003 7:37:13 am
I would urge all interactors to focus on THIS article and not on some other article that Dilip may/may not have written. Doing so distorts the issues and allows us to get involved in very generic bashing of each other. We then end up wasting a lot of time while we bash ``left-wing p-secs`` or ``right-wing fascists``. Both are negative constructions that are useful only for bashing and for avoiding real discussion.
I think this is an excellent article. It is factual, to-the-point and reports things as they happened. We need to learn from it. The use of intimidation and violence by the VHP is something that must be challenged and confronted by the state and all people. The VHP did not invent mob violence (growing in Calcutta I saw plenty of mob violence ---- aided and abetted and rationalized by the CPI(M) and their lackeys) but they are certainly using it to further their agenda.
I think this is an excellent article. It is factual, to-the-point and reports things as they happened. We need to learn from it. The use of intimidation and violence by the VHP is something that must be challenged and confronted by the state and all people. The VHP did not invent mob violence (growing in Calcutta I saw plenty of mob violence ---- aided and abetted and rationalized by the CPI(M) and their lackeys) but they are certainly using it to further their agenda.
#76 Posted by veeresh on March 13, 2003 6:44:39 am
Dilip # 68, my point is this:- when an Indian politician goes to (say) UK, s/he answers questions about India. When a British politician comes to (say) India, we ask her/him questions mostly about India.
Take a close look at this phenomena.
We have, by the way, more Church of England worshippers in India than in UK, the only country with more is Ghana. So would Indian media question the British Government, on behalf these people, about, say, the increasing threat to Church of England in UK, and what the UK Government plans to do about it?
As desis, and here for once Indians & Pakistanis seem to ride together, our media still engages itself on ``suitable`` issues.
For example, on another thread somewhere, somebody has quoted PERC as ranking India as the 2nd most corrupt nation, and it is pride of place in the Indian Express. Fair enough, but do we carry out a cursory check on the background of PERC?
Take a close look at this phenomena.
We have, by the way, more Church of England worshippers in India than in UK, the only country with more is Ghana. So would Indian media question the British Government, on behalf these people, about, say, the increasing threat to Church of England in UK, and what the UK Government plans to do about it?
As desis, and here for once Indians & Pakistanis seem to ride together, our media still engages itself on ``suitable`` issues.
For example, on another thread somewhere, somebody has quoted PERC as ranking India as the 2nd most corrupt nation, and it is pride of place in the Indian Express. Fair enough, but do we carry out a cursory check on the background of PERC?
#75 Posted by harish_hyd on March 13, 2003 6:44:39 am
#68 by Dilip on March 12, 2003 11:22pm PT
I didn`t specifically answer your question only because I thought after reading my reply, it would be pretty obvious to you. However since you claim you didn`t, I would advise you to please read it once agin. And what about that article of yours on rediff on the Bombay riots of 1992-93 that I referred to in my post? I think it is pretty specific and not as meaningless as you`re trying to say it is. How come you conveniently chose to remain silent on that one?
I didn`t specifically answer your question only because I thought after reading my reply, it would be pretty obvious to you. However since you claim you didn`t, I would advise you to please read it once agin. And what about that article of yours on rediff on the Bombay riots of 1992-93 that I referred to in my post? I think it is pretty specific and not as meaningless as you`re trying to say it is. How come you conveniently chose to remain silent on that one?
#74 Posted by Sobia on March 13, 2003 6:44:32 am
//...the reason no country gives a rat`s ass about it is that in no country does a minority burn a train load of the majority and not expect things to get ugly...get it?... //
this article is totally exposing saxena and troupe...for all their talk of tolerance, secularism blah blah blah, what it really boils down to is that they can look at pakistan and other countries, point fingers and get all holier than thou but when it comes to their own country, they wear a blindfold and say things like why should anyone gives a rat`s ass...tsk...pathetic..maybe u guys should really stop worrying so much about pakistan and handle your own selves first..and don`t give me any talk about how much better you are and all that jazz...not interested.
this article is totally exposing saxena and troupe...for all their talk of tolerance, secularism blah blah blah, what it really boils down to is that they can look at pakistan and other countries, point fingers and get all holier than thou but when it comes to their own country, they wear a blindfold and say things like why should anyone gives a rat`s ass...tsk...pathetic..maybe u guys should really stop worrying so much about pakistan and handle your own selves first..and don`t give me any talk about how much better you are and all that jazz...not interested.
#73 Posted by InYourFace on March 13, 2003 6:44:32 am
Dilip:
In my book, the bad guys are: Modi, Thackerey, Tagodia, Arundhathi Roy, Praful Bidwai, Dilip D`Souza, Farzana Versey, Pakaj Mishra etc.
Don`t be lulled by false sense of moral superiority. All of you have no morals ... just agendas.
I used to read your columns regularly ... liked your idealism, your passion for justice. Over the time I realized that your ideals are not universal and your sense of justice is selective. Yet, people like you are needed in India. You tell the world about Modi types. Also, we need people like Rajiv Srinivasan (I am sure you know of him .... your colleague at Rediff) who expose the likes of you who ignore the conversions by seduction and bribery but target IDRF because they are educating some tribals, OR the likes of Farzana who ignores the fact some of our kids are shaking their heads while reciting words in some foreign languages, but get all bent out of shape if some other kids start reciting some slokas.
In my book, the bad guys are: Modi, Thackerey, Tagodia, Arundhathi Roy, Praful Bidwai, Dilip D`Souza, Farzana Versey, Pakaj Mishra etc.
Don`t be lulled by false sense of moral superiority. All of you have no morals ... just agendas.
I used to read your columns regularly ... liked your idealism, your passion for justice. Over the time I realized that your ideals are not universal and your sense of justice is selective. Yet, people like you are needed in India. You tell the world about Modi types. Also, we need people like Rajiv Srinivasan (I am sure you know of him .... your colleague at Rediff) who expose the likes of you who ignore the conversions by seduction and bribery but target IDRF because they are educating some tribals, OR the likes of Farzana who ignores the fact some of our kids are shaking their heads while reciting words in some foreign languages, but get all bent out of shape if some other kids start reciting some slokas.
#72 Posted by pmishra2 on March 13, 2003 6:44:32 am
More ``freedom struggle`` thanks to our friends across the border. We need to understand that we are dealing with a culture that is unable to distinguish between mass murder of civilians and its own islamist fantasies. At some point we need to return the favor, preferably at the highest level of the mullahs (and their families) and the military (and their families). I think this time is starting to come closer.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2845945.stm
Kashmir bus blast kills four
The attack took place at a busy bus stop
Police in Indian-administered Kashmir say at least four people have been killed and 20 others injured in a bomb blast.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2845945.stm
Kashmir bus blast kills four
The attack took place at a busy bus stop
Police in Indian-administered Kashmir say at least four people have been killed and 20 others injured in a bomb blast.
#71 Posted by arjun_m on March 13, 2003 6:44:31 am
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#70 Posted by tahmed32 on March 13, 2003 6:44:31 am
Dilip Dsouza: Do you get the same kind of reactions (rejection, ridicule) to your articles in real life from your fellow Indians as you are getting on chowk? I hope for the sake of Indian society that in real life people are more appreciative of the good work you are doing.
I think your article is very well written. It describes both the mindlessness of a mob, the bravery of the women who stood up to them, and the lack of concern for law and order by the government in power and the individual police who stood by. It takes people like you to open the minds of narrow-minded people, and India seems to have more than its share of them, as is the case also in Pakistan.
I think your article is very well written. It describes both the mindlessness of a mob, the bravery of the women who stood up to them, and the lack of concern for law and order by the government in power and the individual police who stood by. It takes people like you to open the minds of narrow-minded people, and India seems to have more than its share of them, as is the case also in Pakistan.
#69 Posted by Tipu on March 13, 2003 6:44:31 am
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#68 Posted by rsaxena on March 12, 2003 11:22:01 pm
...hello, dilip d`souza...
{I am every bit in favour of any country in the world taking India to task, for example, for the horror of Gujarat last year. This was no ``internal political matter``, it was a matter of concern for any human being anywhere. }
...the reason no country gives a rat`s ass about it is that in no country does a minority burn a train load of the majority and not expect things to get ugly...get it?...
{I am every bit in favour of any country in the world taking India to task, for example, for the horror of Gujarat last year. This was no ``internal political matter``, it was a matter of concern for any human being anywhere. }
...the reason no country gives a rat`s ass about it is that in no country does a minority burn a train load of the majority and not expect things to get ugly...get it?...
#67 Posted by rsaxena on March 12, 2003 11:22:01 pm
....in new york city, we have a dilip d`souza named al sharpton...the similarities between the two are uncanny...
#66 Posted by Dilip on March 12, 2003 11:22:01 pm
Harish_hyd #63: You didn`t answer the question. Which was this: I would love to hear from you in what way I have, in this article (or in fact any article), painted aggressors as victims and vice versa. Also please point me to anything I have written that shows a ``deep hatred for anything Hindu.`` Anything. So go ahead, I`m waiting for something more specific than a meaningless ``many others.``
Veeresh #65: Indeed we are all selective. But that`s not the point. What I`m getting at is, when countries say ``don`t tell us about our crimes because that`s our internal political matter``, that should be ignored. Was the Rwanda massacre an ``internal political matter``? Etc. Yes, you should attempt a series of articles on this.
Veeresh #65: Indeed we are all selective. But that`s not the point. What I`m getting at is, when countries say ``don`t tell us about our crimes because that`s our internal political matter``, that should be ignored. Was the Rwanda massacre an ``internal political matter``? Etc. Yes, you should attempt a series of articles on this.
#65 Posted by veeresh on March 12, 2003 10:48:54 pm
Dilip, you will have to agree that all of us are selective on matters of concern for human beings anywhere. I mean, shouldn`t the Indian/Pakistani media be questioning British diplomats/politicians about the horrors on Catholics in Ireland, on behalf of Indian/Pakistani Catholics? Or maybe the US diplomats/politicians about the horrors on Angolans in Angola, on behalf of Portugese speaking people and Malayalees in India/Pakistan? How about the Indian/Pakistani media do research on atrocities towards Indian/Pakistani Muslims and other Muslims by that great bastion of freedom, Saudi Arabia, especially around Hajj time? Would we take to task the EU for atrocities against the Basque people on behalf of the sizeable Spanish ancestry population of India/Pakistan? How about taking Japan to task for its genocide against the Aii-noo tribals, so colsely linked with our own North East Indian tribes? Not to mention how USA, Canada, Russia and Japan are jointly destroying the poor Innuits, whose ancestry is so closely linked genetically to the people currently living in Gilgit/Ladakh?
No, we won`t. We will all hit on ourselves, on each other, and here we in India and Pakistan are equally guilty.
No? Is this the root of a series of articles I should do? Hmmmmm . . . .
No, we won`t. We will all hit on ourselves, on each other, and here we in India and Pakistan are equally guilty.
No? Is this the root of a series of articles I should do? Hmmmmm . . . .
#64 Posted by veeresh on March 12, 2003 8:39:04 pm
Rum? What is rum, I seem to have forgotten what is rum! What a rummy thing . . .!!!
#63 Posted by harish_hyd on March 12, 2003 8:39:04 pm
Dilip,
My reference was not to this particular article, but the many others that have regularly appeared on rediff over the past year or so. I haven`t seen a SINGLE article of yours condemn minority communalism or the blatant proselytization going on in many parts of India. Not that I condone the VHP`s extremist politics, but have you ever mentioned the average Hindu even in passing? And why is the VHP gaining in power year after year? I also remember having read your article on rediff on the Bombay riots of 1992-93 (I think), where you reported on violence in which Muslim casualties were on the higher side, while selectively ignoring violence in which Hindu victims were on the higher side.
My reference was not to this particular article, but the many others that have regularly appeared on rediff over the past year or so. I haven`t seen a SINGLE article of yours condemn minority communalism or the blatant proselytization going on in many parts of India. Not that I condone the VHP`s extremist politics, but have you ever mentioned the average Hindu even in passing? And why is the VHP gaining in power year after year? I also remember having read your article on rediff on the Bombay riots of 1992-93 (I think), where you reported on violence in which Muslim casualties were on the higher side, while selectively ignoring violence in which Hindu victims were on the higher side.
#62 Posted by Dilip on March 12, 2003 8:39:04 pm
Urstruly #59: Indeed it applies to India too. I am every bit in favour of any country in the world taking India to task, for example, for the horror of Gujarat last year. This was no ``internal political matter``, it was a matter of concern for any human being anywhere.
#61 Posted by Tipu on March 12, 2003 1:27:33 pm
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#60 Posted by arjun_m on March 12, 2003 12:29:22 pm
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#59 Posted by Urstruly on March 12, 2003 11:46:46 am
Dilip # 58
I am so glad about what you wrote about Bangladesh. I hope you are equally proud of Pakistan`s efforts for liberating people of Kashmir from Hindu tyranny and oppression also. Let me repeat your words ``No country can, or will, be allowed to get away with crimes against its own people by saying it`s an ``internal political matter.`` (This applies to India too).`` Amen. I think, finally, I have found a decent Indian.
#58 Posted by Dilip on March 12, 2003 11:25:55 am
Let`s see if I can do this right...
#2 semipreciousme, #6 veeresh (old chum): The man said he was busy till Mar 16, I think becausee one Togadia has a meeting in Bombay that day. So we`ll meet after that. I`ll keep you posted.
Harish_hyd #11: I would love to hear from you in what way I have, in this articlee, painted aggressors as victims and vice versa. Also please point me to anything I have written that shows a ``deep hatred for anything Hindu.`` Anything. And #36: So who will you take lessons on tolerance from?
saminasha #18: I will do my best to let you know about the meeting. Which D`Souza sahib?
maillart #19: You say: ``might have been note worthy but definately not quite significant``. It would be an education to find out how something is noteworthy but not significant. Please enlighten me.
pmishra2 #23: Thanks, pal. Hey, we missed you at the BITS alumni meet last Sat. Lots of your old friends.
Urstruly #34: When you describe the 1971 birth of Bangladesh as India ``taking advantage of internal political matter of Pakistan``, you lose me. No country can, or will, be allowed to get away with crimes against its own people by saying it`s an ``internal political matter.`` (This applies to India too). I`m no fan of Indira Gandhi and I think India does a lot wrong; but liberating Bangladesh remains something we should be justifiably proud of.
Ras #39: And it`s good to be back, dude! Veeresh keeps prodding me to contribute, but perhaps if you urge him to ply me with more rum, I`ll be on Chowk more often. Yo Veeresh, you listening?
arjun_m #52: Thanks for the news about the Osama screen savers. I take it you find this bizarre and repulsive. How do you feel about screen savers and general adulation of such figures as Thackeray, Togadia and Modi?
#2 semipreciousme, #6 veeresh (old chum): The man said he was busy till Mar 16, I think becausee one Togadia has a meeting in Bombay that day. So we`ll meet after that. I`ll keep you posted.
Harish_hyd #11: I would love to hear from you in what way I have, in this articlee, painted aggressors as victims and vice versa. Also please point me to anything I have written that shows a ``deep hatred for anything Hindu.`` Anything. And #36: So who will you take lessons on tolerance from?
saminasha #18: I will do my best to let you know about the meeting. Which D`Souza sahib?
maillart #19: You say: ``might have been note worthy but definately not quite significant``. It would be an education to find out how something is noteworthy but not significant. Please enlighten me.
pmishra2 #23: Thanks, pal. Hey, we missed you at the BITS alumni meet last Sat. Lots of your old friends.
Urstruly #34: When you describe the 1971 birth of Bangladesh as India ``taking advantage of internal political matter of Pakistan``, you lose me. No country can, or will, be allowed to get away with crimes against its own people by saying it`s an ``internal political matter.`` (This applies to India too). I`m no fan of Indira Gandhi and I think India does a lot wrong; but liberating Bangladesh remains something we should be justifiably proud of.
Ras #39: And it`s good to be back, dude! Veeresh keeps prodding me to contribute, but perhaps if you urge him to ply me with more rum, I`ll be on Chowk more often. Yo Veeresh, you listening?
arjun_m #52: Thanks for the news about the Osama screen savers. I take it you find this bizarre and repulsive. How do you feel about screen savers and general adulation of such figures as Thackeray, Togadia and Modi?
#57 Posted by arjun_m on March 12, 2003 10:56:15 am
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#56 Posted by tahmed32 on March 12, 2003 9:14:32 am
rozaiba writes and nazarhayatkhan seconds that ````Religion outside the personal self is a disgusting menace``
Ditto that.
Underline disgusting (as on chowk by these ``educated gentlemen``) and underline menace (as in real life, by their less educated soulmates who go around killing innocent people).
Ditto that.
Underline disgusting (as on chowk by these ``educated gentlemen``) and underline menace (as in real life, by their less educated soulmates who go around killing innocent people).
#55 Posted by Tipu on March 12, 2003 9:00:41 am
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#54 Posted by tahmed32 on March 12, 2003 9:00:41 am
Arjun #52 Really? And which prep school did you and jay and harish (need I go on?) pick up your charming personalities from? Or is this desire to insult other communities and other people`s religion and this desire for self-aggrandizement something that comes naturally to people like you?
#53 Posted by temporal on March 12, 2003 8:40:58 am
jay #43
``...Here is a news for you. The definition of honour killing is that it has to be done publically, in the most grotesque manner. Once this condition is met, the person can walk free under the pak law. The local police along with the mullah certifies it as legel killing...``
would you cite reference for your defintion of honour killing?...(if it is letters to editors...don`t bother please)
rgds,
t
``...Here is a news for you. The definition of honour killing is that it has to be done publically, in the most grotesque manner. Once this condition is met, the person can walk free under the pak law. The local police along with the mullah certifies it as legel killing...``
would you cite reference for your defintion of honour killing?...(if it is letters to editors...don`t bother please)
rgds,
t
#52 Posted by arjun_m on March 12, 2003 8:34:14 am
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#51 Posted by Sobia on March 12, 2003 6:48:21 am
//He points out how ghazal singer Jagjit Singh was asked to leave before a performance in Pakistan and how Lata Mangeshkar has never been issued an invite.‘‘Why are we falling flat in welcoming them,’’ questions Abhijeet. //
just curious...wasn`t junoon banned from india?
just curious...wasn`t junoon banned from india?
#50 Posted by JayJay on March 12, 2003 6:48:20 am
#31 Bhitai
[Let me remind you that the case in point here is religious fanaticism, and MQM has impeccable credentials when it comes to countering Mullahism.]
Tough choice. MQM Vs MMA. Fascism Vs Fanaticism.
Which one is the lesser evil?
[Let me remind you that the case in point here is religious fanaticism, and MQM has impeccable credentials when it comes to countering Mullahism.]
Tough choice. MQM Vs MMA. Fascism Vs Fanaticism.
Which one is the lesser evil?
#49 Posted by jay on March 12, 2003 6:48:20 am
Shobia,
There is nothing to froth and fume about in individual acts of criminality, in acts of mob violence. But when the legal system supports crime, when the consitution of a country legitimises crimes, then one should froth and fume, one has to protest, one has to be ashamed of it.
I know as a child of TNT you will not understand what I am talking about, but still let me make an attempt.
A shool teacher said that parents of prophet mihemmed could not be born muslims. If we assume that islam was started by the prophet, then it is fairly logical that it could not have existed before the birth of the creator itself and by shera biological reasons the parents have to be older than the child. For all educated people what the prof said is simple logic, even scientific. But under the pak law, the prof was charged with blasphemy, sentenced to death. This is something you have to froth and fume about, you need to be ashamed of the legal system of your country, you have to express your disgust and shame to the world.
There is nothing to froth and fume about in individual acts of criminality, in acts of mob violence. But when the legal system supports crime, when the consitution of a country legitimises crimes, then one should froth and fume, one has to protest, one has to be ashamed of it.
I know as a child of TNT you will not understand what I am talking about, but still let me make an attempt.
A shool teacher said that parents of prophet mihemmed could not be born muslims. If we assume that islam was started by the prophet, then it is fairly logical that it could not have existed before the birth of the creator itself and by shera biological reasons the parents have to be older than the child. For all educated people what the prof said is simple logic, even scientific. But under the pak law, the prof was charged with blasphemy, sentenced to death. This is something you have to froth and fume about, you need to be ashamed of the legal system of your country, you have to express your disgust and shame to the world.
#48 Posted by jay on March 12, 2003 6:48:12 am
Farooka,
As a typical pakistani, you cannot find the difference betwenn condemning honour killing in a general way and pointing out the mechanism which sustains it. There are articles condemning it. But no one dares to point out that killers of Samia Sarwar were not charged with any crime because it is perfectly legal to kill. Tis kind of focussed articles lead to corrective actions, why general articles only leads to the ilks of tahmed to say that honour killing is due to illiteracy.
If any one dares to point out the legality of killing, it focusses on the legislators. The supreme sheria court has the power to annul any laws, again no one dares to point this out, the silence of the sheria court on killings.
Finally as tahmed says, non-innocents are to be killed, that is the jihadic law, again provides the religious basis for killings.
Here is a news for you. The definition of honour killing is that it has to be done publically, in the most grotesque manner. Once this condition is met, the person can walk free under the pak law. The local police along with the mullah certifies it as legel killing.
As a typical pakistani, you cannot find the difference betwenn condemning honour killing in a general way and pointing out the mechanism which sustains it. There are articles condemning it. But no one dares to point out that killers of Samia Sarwar were not charged with any crime because it is perfectly legal to kill. Tis kind of focussed articles lead to corrective actions, why general articles only leads to the ilks of tahmed to say that honour killing is due to illiteracy.
If any one dares to point out the legality of killing, it focusses on the legislators. The supreme sheria court has the power to annul any laws, again no one dares to point this out, the silence of the sheria court on killings.
Finally as tahmed says, non-innocents are to be killed, that is the jihadic law, again provides the religious basis for killings.
Here is a news for you. The definition of honour killing is that it has to be done publically, in the most grotesque manner. Once this condition is met, the person can walk free under the pak law. The local police along with the mullah certifies it as legel killing.
#47 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on March 12, 2003 6:48:12 am
Reply # 4
rozaiba -
After 42 posts, your prophecy is coming very true.
``Religion outside the personal self is a disgusting menace``
rozaiba -
After 42 posts, your prophecy is coming very true.
``Religion outside the personal self is a disgusting menace``
#46 Posted by tahmed32 on March 12, 2003 6:48:12 am
harish/Bhitai: No one is claiming that dissensions and divisions do not exist within Pakistan - sometimes these are along ethnic lines, sometimes along religious lines (shia vs sunni), sometimes along gender lines, sometimes along economic lines. That is in the nature of human beings, and they exist in every society (And Harish, please stop attributing things to me that are the opposite of what I have always said on chowk - I have always said that the concept of a unified ummah, or muslim community, is nonsense).
The point is: how do you express these differences, how do you resolve them??? Neither one of you has honestly answered my question: Why did the muhajirs choose to leave India? So let me provide you with the correct answer: similar reasons as my people did in 1947 in east panjab. My people fled for their lives, since that is how their neighbors were expressing their differences back then. Muhajirs may not be fleeing for their lives, but clearly they are not fools (as Bhitai answered) who would keep coming into Pakistan 50 years after Pakistan has been formed and despite the troubled period we are going theough. Perhaps you should reflect a bit on this.
The point is: how do you express these differences, how do you resolve them??? Neither one of you has honestly answered my question: Why did the muhajirs choose to leave India? So let me provide you with the correct answer: similar reasons as my people did in 1947 in east panjab. My people fled for their lives, since that is how their neighbors were expressing their differences back then. Muhajirs may not be fleeing for their lives, but clearly they are not fools (as Bhitai answered) who would keep coming into Pakistan 50 years after Pakistan has been formed and despite the troubled period we are going theough. Perhaps you should reflect a bit on this.
#45 Posted by arjun_m on March 12, 2003 6:48:12 am
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#44 Posted by pmishra2 on March 12, 2003 6:48:12 am
#43 Dilshad
You are so correct Dilshad. No hindu can stand to live near a muslim. It is part of our religion where we are advised to stay away from non-hindus.
This is why India has 12%+ muslims whereas Hindu-loving Pakistan has under 1%. The interesting question here is WHY this particular individual has a problem with muslims. How did they arrive at this bizarre attitude?
But you could never ask that question, could you? You are happy with your fantasy of irrational hindu hatred.
You are so correct Dilshad. No hindu can stand to live near a muslim. It is part of our religion where we are advised to stay away from non-hindus.
This is why India has 12%+ muslims whereas Hindu-loving Pakistan has under 1%. The interesting question here is WHY this particular individual has a problem with muslims. How did they arrive at this bizarre attitude?
But you could never ask that question, could you? You are happy with your fantasy of irrational hindu hatred.
#43 Posted by tahmed32 on March 12, 2003 6:48:12 am
Dilshad #42 I dont see anything unusual here - the immigrant father to the US brings his narrow-minded upbringing along with him from India (and the same goes for many of us Pakistanis too). There is plenty eviedence of this narrow-mindedness among first generation H1B types on chowk for example.
HOWEVER, the children of these individuals from the dysfuntional cultures of the ``old world`` (India and Pakistan in our case) go to schools in the US where they emphasize respect for all cultures, ethnic groups. So the children grow up to be normal people, and in this case the daughter writes about her father`s hatred for muslims and Pakistanis with obvious distaste. Nothing surprising here. This is called progress.
HOWEVER, the children of these individuals from the dysfuntional cultures of the ``old world`` (India and Pakistan in our case) go to schools in the US where they emphasize respect for all cultures, ethnic groups. So the children grow up to be normal people, and in this case the daughter writes about her father`s hatred for muslims and Pakistanis with obvious distaste. Nothing surprising here. This is called progress.
#42 Posted by Dilshad on March 11, 2003 9:45:20 pm
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#41 Posted by Studebaker on March 11, 2003 9:13:01 pm
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#40 Posted by sadna on March 11, 2003 8:57:52 pm
Actually the lathered up folks can get even more lathered up about India. On any given day there have to be dozens if not hundreds of demonstrations going on all over India. How degenerate of Indians!(sarcasm). Some of them do get nasty. And lets not forget student demonstrations, which can sometimes be really ugly.
In addition, add religious processions. Almost every month there is occasion to take out some temple procession somewhere, or a church feast. And if I am not mistaken it is currently the Moharram month, when tazia processions are taken out. Some of those can get nasty, too, but if they didn`t , you wouldn`t even hear of them.
Dilip`s point if I get him right, is not the fact of the demonstration itself or its nastiness in general, its the particular attitude of behind the VHP brand of nastiness namely `everyone who opposes VHP nastiness is unpatriotic to Bharat Mata`.
This is essentially what the so-called VHP `intellectuals` also keep saying about all their opponents, even those who simply disagree with them. I would call it a mindless cultish or ideological drone attitude. Those in public life have to accept that others have every right to disagree with them but the VHP is one organisation which doesnot show any signs of accepting this.
In addition, add religious processions. Almost every month there is occasion to take out some temple procession somewhere, or a church feast. And if I am not mistaken it is currently the Moharram month, when tazia processions are taken out. Some of those can get nasty, too, but if they didn`t , you wouldn`t even hear of them.
Dilip`s point if I get him right, is not the fact of the demonstration itself or its nastiness in general, its the particular attitude of behind the VHP brand of nastiness namely `everyone who opposes VHP nastiness is unpatriotic to Bharat Mata`.
This is essentially what the so-called VHP `intellectuals` also keep saying about all their opponents, even those who simply disagree with them. I would call it a mindless cultish or ideological drone attitude. Those in public life have to accept that others have every right to disagree with them but the VHP is one organisation which doesnot show any signs of accepting this.
#39 Posted by Humsab on March 11, 2003 8:57:08 pm
Sooryavanshi Urstruly
Barhi thand kha ke bethe hoye ho! Eni naram naram post likhoge te Chowk vich garami kiveN aayegi? Do chaar galaN kad ke ik garama garam Post Oye HinduoN nu address karo te pher maamla zara garamaa jaaye.
Rab tuhaada bhala kare!
Barhi thand kha ke bethe hoye ho! Eni naram naram post likhoge te Chowk vich garami kiveN aayegi? Do chaar galaN kad ke ik garama garam Post Oye HinduoN nu address karo te pher maamla zara garamaa jaaye.
Rab tuhaada bhala kare!
#38 Posted by harish_hyd on March 11, 2003 8:57:08 pm
[And why did the muhajirs choose to leave India (which, going by chowk posts of some of my chowk friends from India, has streets paved with gold with beautiful IT programmers doing the belly dance on these streets, and muslims and hindus and tamils and northerners and low castes and high castes all politely bowing to one another as they pass one another)]
And going by some of my Paki friends` posts, one would think that all is hunky dory in Pakiland and there are no differences whatsoever between Punjabis and Sindhis, Balochis and Pukhtoons, Sunnis and Shias, and Muhajirs and everyone else. And you guys endlessly talk about the Ummah?? Forget the Ummah my friends, you haven`t been able to justify the TNT by constantly bickering amongst yourselves. And poor (or was it stupid?) Jinnah thought everything would be just fine if Muslims had their nation.
And going by some of my Paki friends` posts, one would think that all is hunky dory in Pakiland and there are no differences whatsoever between Punjabis and Sindhis, Balochis and Pukhtoons, Sunnis and Shias, and Muhajirs and everyone else. And you guys endlessly talk about the Ummah?? Forget the Ummah my friends, you haven`t been able to justify the TNT by constantly bickering amongst yourselves. And poor (or was it stupid?) Jinnah thought everything would be just fine if Muslims had their nation.
#37 Posted by Ras on March 11, 2003 8:57:08 pm
Welcome back Dilip,
In your case, one article every 6 months or so on CHOWK is not
enough. Do try to at least double your contributions here.
I read your work on Rediff and India Currents often.
You are one sane Indian and from what I know you are not alone.
Pakistanis have many such Tyson`s in their midst. Such a-holes
are unfortunately present in most countries but it is the tacit police
support that really bothers me.
Anyway, French Wine and Russian Caviar are going to be getting
cheaper here soon due to the Tyson`s in our media.
I propose an increase in consumption by peace lovers everywhere.
Ras
#36 Posted by Bhitai on March 11, 2003 8:22:12 pm
Tahmed sahib,
#32
line #1-8 : pointless, so no answer needed.
line#9: because they were duped by punjabis like you, who claims he `loves them`
thanks for mentioning BenglaDesh though.
Apni muhabbat apnay paas rakhain toe meherbaani ho gee! WE DON`T NEED IT! why don`t you get it!
According to Ghalib:
huway tum dost jiskay dushman uska AasmaN kyoon ho!
#32
line #1-8 : pointless, so no answer needed.
line#9: because they were duped by punjabis like you, who claims he `loves them`
thanks for mentioning BenglaDesh though.
Apni muhabbat apnay paas rakhain toe meherbaani ho gee! WE DON`T NEED IT! why don`t you get it!
According to Ghalib:
huway tum dost jiskay dushman uska AasmaN kyoon ho!
#35 Posted by Urstruly on March 11, 2003 8:22:12 pm
uRRA eeRee nahiN paRhaaN gay
JuRRa juRRee kat suttaN gay
Kachcha, Kangha, KaRRa, Karpaan
Bhaij diaN gay Pakistan
beeRRee cigarette piaaN gay
Shaan naal jiaN gay
Hindustan is/was ever a tolerant country - it is a myth. It was intolerant even before it came into existence. Had Hindu leadership shown some tolerance when they were in power during the 1938 congress government the country would never have been divided. It is anti-Muslim hate shown during the 1938 government which showed Muslims the true colors of Hindus and they got a pretty good idea what it would be like to live with them. Those Muslims who were beguiled by Nehru and Gandhi, today live the life of living dead and curse their ancestor why they chose to stay in India.
According to the data collected by home Ministry of India, since 1954, there has been on average 250+ anti-Muslim incidents annually in India where on average at least two Muslims are killed everyday by Hindu extremists. (This excludes the 80,000 Muslims murdered in Kashmir).
Sikhs were the next to bear the weight of “tolerance” of Hindu majority. The hate campaign against Sikhs started in early 50s as well when ghondas and badmaash of RSS and Jan Singh used to sing uRRA eeRee nahiN paRhaaN gay all around the sikh neighborhoods in Punjab looking for trouble. That finally resulted in the massacre of thousands of Sikhs in 1984 by Hindu extremist government and total destruction of their holy places.
Since 1947, India has invaded its neighbor four times breaking all International treaties and pacts. First they invaded Kashmir, breaking the formula of division which the three parties Hindus, Muslims and British agreed upon. Then they invaded Pakistan in 1965 breaking the UN resolutions which stipulated to settle disputes with mutual consultations. Then they invaded Pakistan in 1971, breaking non-aggression pact of Tashkent, and dismembered the country taking advantage of internal political matter of Pakistan. In 1984, they invaded again, capturing Siachin glacier, breaking Shimla agreement.
In such a country which is so intolerant to its own people and its own neighbors, people like Dilip D’Souza are people with a death wish and they know it. They are courageous souls, the lone crusaders who can’t help but speak the truth. In a country, which is ruled by fascist religious nuts, who have destroyed the lives and business of journalists of tahlaka.com , punishing them for speaking the truth, people like Dilip and Farzana Versey are real heroes. Don’t forget that Farzana lost her job because her hindu extremist boss couldn’t tolerate the truth.
Speaking of truth, India is probably the only country in the world (probably Israel also) where places of worship of other faiths are dug out to find gods. And no wonder both countries have the secularism at its best:
INDIAN SECULARISM AT ITS BEST
#34 Posted by faisaluno on March 11, 2003 8:22:12 pm
pak would be a much better place to live if establishment-type punjabis would get over the fascination with ideology of pakistan.
#33 Posted by harish_hyd on March 11, 2003 8:22:12 pm
#16 by Sobia on March 11, 2003 6:37am PT
Well I don`t have to take lessons from a Paki on tolerance. Period.
Well I don`t have to take lessons from a Paki on tolerance. Period.
#32 Posted by tahmed32 on March 11, 2003 6:17:27 pm
Bhitai #31 Aha! Trying to sow the seeds of dissent between Pakistanis! Ha! Ha! And where did the muhajirs do their hijrat FROM, may I ask? Could it perhaps be...India??? And why did the muhajirs choose to leave India (which, going by chowk posts of some of my chowk friends from India, has streets paved with gold with beautiful IT programmers doing the belly dance on these streets, and muslims and hindus and tamils and northerners and low castes and high castes all politely bowing to one another as they pass one another) and come to Pakistan, may I ask most humbly?? And why do the muhajirs not in Pakistan wrap themselves with the Pakistani flag in Bangladesh and claim to be ardent Pakistanis and demand to be let in??
As for bashing us poor panjabis, no problem. Excuse me, I am moved to start singing:
A Baluch is my prime minister
Every desert cutie there
(all three of them)
Is my sister
A Muhajir is my President
(Addendum:
Never Mind the Referendum)
The MMA chappies be Pakhtoons
(someone give `em spittoons)
The thievin`, stealin` BB
Is my heartbreakin` Sindhi
And I love these Pakis one and all
(What can I do:
I am a panjabi
With heart enough to love em all)
As for bashing us poor panjabis, no problem. Excuse me, I am moved to start singing:
A Baluch is my prime minister
Every desert cutie there
(all three of them)
Is my sister
A Muhajir is my President
(Addendum:
Never Mind the Referendum)
The MMA chappies be Pakhtoons
(someone give `em spittoons)
The thievin`, stealin` BB
Is my heartbreakin` Sindhi
And I love these Pakis one and all
(What can I do:
I am a panjabi
With heart enough to love em all)
#31 Posted by Bhitai on March 11, 2003 4:54:16 pm
A party which is neck deep in hero worship (Altaf Hussein) can hardly be called secular
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#26
Adnan sahib
Pls. don`t try to link unrelated concepts just to make a point. Hero-worship and secularism can coexist, as we have seen in case of Turkey. Let me remind you that the case in point here is religious fanaticism, and MQM has impeccable credentials when it comes to countering Mullahism. In fact Baluchistan and Sindh boast a number of parties (Jeay Sind, BNM etc.) that are deeply nationalistic and thus inherently secular in nature.
Now tell me, if you are faced with a decision to pick either MMA or MQM ..which one would you go for (and don`t tell me you would vote for balla)?
And btw., if muhajirs have been banished by the rest of the Pakistan (read punjabis), how does that prove it was MQM`s fault?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#26
Adnan sahib
Pls. don`t try to link unrelated concepts just to make a point. Hero-worship and secularism can coexist, as we have seen in case of Turkey. Let me remind you that the case in point here is religious fanaticism, and MQM has impeccable credentials when it comes to countering Mullahism. In fact Baluchistan and Sindh boast a number of parties (Jeay Sind, BNM etc.) that are deeply nationalistic and thus inherently secular in nature.
Now tell me, if you are faced with a decision to pick either MMA or MQM ..which one would you go for (and don`t tell me you would vote for balla)?
And btw., if muhajirs have been banished by the rest of the Pakistan (read punjabis), how does that prove it was MQM`s fault?
#30 Posted by harimau on March 11, 2003 3:04:58 pm
Ref adnan_rafiq #28
[The only thing MQM has achieved is total ostracism of Mohajirs from the rest of Pakistan and a systematic destruction of our once fine educational insitutions.]
Hey, don`t knock it. Two out of two ain`t bad at all.
[The only thing MQM has achieved is total ostracism of Mohajirs from the rest of Pakistan and a systematic destruction of our once fine educational insitutions.]
Hey, don`t knock it. Two out of two ain`t bad at all.
#29 Posted by harimau on March 11, 2003 2:52:22 pm
Ref FarooqA #25
[Jay #13
....... You really are brimming over with hatred for Pakistan.]
And your heart, I presume, is brimming over with love for India.
[Jay #13
....... You really are brimming over with hatred for Pakistan.]
And your heart, I presume, is brimming over with love for India.
#28 Posted by adnan_rafiq on March 11, 2003 1:52:37 pm
Bhitai #26:
Perhaps, MQM should also take out a procession condemning its killings of other mohajirs and pathans. Another procession should be taken out condemning the drilled ankles, amputated limbs and ruined young lives caused by MQM. A party which is neck deep in hero worship (Altaf Hussein) can hardly be called secular. The only thing MQM has achieved is total ostracism of Mohajirs from the rest of Pakistan and a systematic destruction of our once fine educational insitutions.
Perhaps, MQM should also take out a procession condemning its killings of other mohajirs and pathans. Another procession should be taken out condemning the drilled ankles, amputated limbs and ruined young lives caused by MQM. A party which is neck deep in hero worship (Altaf Hussein) can hardly be called secular. The only thing MQM has achieved is total ostracism of Mohajirs from the rest of Pakistan and a systematic destruction of our once fine educational insitutions.
#27 Posted by PaagalInsaan on March 11, 2003 1:26:58 pm
Dear SaimaShah,
The only reason we don`t see a bunch of women protesting against Jamaat-e-Islaami in Pakistan is that they can`t or don`t want to imagine it. They`re scared of someone punching them and running away. The drawing room is safer!
#26 Posted by Bhitai on March 11, 2003 12:17:17 pm
Can you imagine a bunch of women protesting against Jamaat-e-Islaami in Pakistan
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#24
Come to karachi, such a scenario is very much imaginable. MQM is rabidly anti-jamaat, or anti-MMA. They were the only party to take it to streets condemning 9-11 tragedy, and the only major party NOT to participate in the anti-war march recently (asking Jamaat to first take out a procession condeming shiite killings!).
So here you have a staunchly secular party (I remember CNN calling them `beverly hills of pakistani politics`, while commenting on the 9-11 procession). In fact there are only two parties in Pakistan that never compromised their secular credentials..ANP and MQM (no wonder they are allies now, despite a history of bloody feuds during the 80s).
So jeeay muhajir, jeeay Sindh
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#24
Come to karachi, such a scenario is very much imaginable. MQM is rabidly anti-jamaat, or anti-MMA. They were the only party to take it to streets condemning 9-11 tragedy, and the only major party NOT to participate in the anti-war march recently (asking Jamaat to first take out a procession condeming shiite killings!).
So here you have a staunchly secular party (I remember CNN calling them `beverly hills of pakistani politics`, while commenting on the 9-11 procession). In fact there are only two parties in Pakistan that never compromised their secular credentials..ANP and MQM (no wonder they are allies now, despite a history of bloody feuds during the 80s).
So jeeay muhajir, jeeay Sindh
#25 Posted by FarooqA on March 11, 2003 9:14:11 am
Jay #13
There are countless news stories and artciles in the Pakistani English press condemning things like honour killings, persecution of minorities, women rights etc, but first of all you will have to take off your prejudice spectacles which are unfortunately far too thick and coloured for you to be able to put things in there right perspective. You really are brimming over with hatred for Pakistan.
There are countless news stories and artciles in the Pakistani English press condemning things like honour killings, persecution of minorities, women rights etc, but first of all you will have to take off your prejudice spectacles which are unfortunately far too thick and coloured for you to be able to put things in there right perspective. You really are brimming over with hatred for Pakistan.
#24 Posted by SaimaShah on March 11, 2003 8:25:56 am
Great piece of journalism, Dilip. Hope you keep writing here.
At least in India a bunch of women demonstrates for peace. Can you imagine a bunch of women protesting against Jamaat-e-Islaami in Pakistan? A women``s peace march in Lahore was tear gassed during the time of Nawaz Sharif.
At least in India a bunch of women demonstrates for peace. Can you imagine a bunch of women protesting against Jamaat-e-Islaami in Pakistan? A women``s peace march in Lahore was tear gassed during the time of Nawaz Sharif.
#23 Posted by pmishra2 on March 11, 2003 8:17:55 am
Dilip is my ex-collegemate and acqaintance. We are all proud of the work he is doing: factual, down-to-earth, challenging those who would intimidate us with slogans and rhetoric of the left or right.
BTW, my guess is that ``people`` like Urstruly (isn`t it cute how these fanatics love critics from OTHER countries? But are always ready to threaten death to their own?) would be in the class Dilip would right about, if he were writing about Paksistan.
BTW, my guess is that ``people`` like Urstruly (isn`t it cute how these fanatics love critics from OTHER countries? But are always ready to threaten death to their own?) would be in the class Dilip would right about, if he were writing about Paksistan.
#22 Posted by arjun_m on March 11, 2003 8:17:54 am
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#21 Posted by arjun_m on March 11, 2003 8:17:54 am
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#19 Posted by Sobia on March 11, 2003 6:37:30 am
harish_hyd:
Beneath this thin facade of pain and disenchantment, there lies a deep hatred for anything Hindu.
aah there you go...that`s tolerance for you!
#18 Posted by tahmed32 on March 11, 2003 6:37:30 am
Sobia #5 you write ``aaaah..this board should be interesting. I can just see jay, arjun, hxn and the likes foaming at the mouth. ;) ``
You got that one right, sister. :-) Urstruly performs the kick-off with expressions of delight...brother harish rushes like a fire brigade to explain how D`souza twists facts...poor jay (#13) struggles to put a positive spin to the matter...
In the meantime, a well written description of mob violence, useless police, and the bravery of the women who stood up to them is doomed to be buried under the usual deluge of the same set of accusations and accusations by the same set of interactors on chowk.
You got that one right, sister. :-) Urstruly performs the kick-off with expressions of delight...brother harish rushes like a fire brigade to explain how D`souza twists facts...poor jay (#13) struggles to put a positive spin to the matter...
In the meantime, a well written description of mob violence, useless police, and the bravery of the women who stood up to them is doomed to be buried under the usual deluge of the same set of accusations and accusations by the same set of interactors on chowk.
#17 Posted by Saminasha on March 11, 2003 6:37:30 am
I want to read about the meeting.
And this the kind of behavior that India should start dealing with before they start accusing Pakistan of laxity/intolerance.
Is this THE D`Souza Sahib?
And this the kind of behavior that India should start dealing with before they start accusing Pakistan of laxity/intolerance.
Is this THE D`Souza Sahib?
#16 Posted by maillart on March 11, 2003 6:37:30 am
Good piece of writing, but i fail to see any point in this kind of articles. As a person living in Gujarat I have first hand experience of what happened during that forgettable period. There is no way any one can rationalize the outcome! VHP indeed is a hate filled senseless organisation with which any remotely sensible person can barely associate himself with. It was rather unfortunate- and I blame extremely weak governance- that this was the only way the general population could vent out.
Anyhow my point is...this is the India we are talking about here, and whatever D` souza experinced might have been note worthy but definately not quite significant in my opinion. Only thing this article does is, it suggests that there is something seriously flawed with the situation but fails to reagrd the larger context.
Anyhow my point is...this is the India we are talking about here, and whatever D` souza experinced might have been note worthy but definately not quite significant in my opinion. Only thing this article does is, it suggests that there is something seriously flawed with the situation but fails to reagrd the larger context.
#15 Posted by Urstruly on March 11, 2003 6:37:30 am
Ok, where is the other stocky fella, Arjun? Is he looking into his suitcase for the t-shirt with Paki flag yet or not? We must credit Mr. D`souza for writing this article though - at least it has made Arjun take leave from his hindu religious nut slave driver employers for a change. Vacation is good.
Jay
I have a better suggestion for you. Use the scroll bar and go to the top of this page where the title of this article is; you will see an icon that says ``Print``; hit it. Print out the article and replies and then stomp on it. And that goes for other closet hindu religious nuts on this board as well.
#14 Posted by sadna on March 11, 2003 6:37:29 am
Good one. Police must have been looking to `keep the peace`, and persuading the women was easier than fighting the men.
Any comments on the forcible shutdown of the state by CPM yesterday in Kerala?
Any comments on the forcible shutdown of the state by CPM yesterday in Kerala?
#13 Posted by jay on March 10, 2003 11:17:33 pm
Shobia, urstruly,
I am in fact proud of people like dsouza who write articles like this and these are the corrective mechanisms. Grim potrayal of the dowry deaths have led to several legislative changes, the latest is that if any woman dies with in 7 years of marriage due to untantural causes, the inlaws are to be charged with murder and investigated. The implementation of course in ststes like bihar is far way off, but in many other states the effect is sp
I am in fact proud of people like dsouza who write articles like this and these are the corrective mechanisms. Grim potrayal of the dowry deaths have led to several legislative changes, the latest is that if any woman dies with in 7 years of marriage due to untantural causes, the inlaws are to be charged with murder and investigated. The implementation of course in ststes like bihar is far way off, but in many other states the effect is sp