The Tyson Who Didn't Fight Lewis

Dilip#58

Dear Dilip,


“maillart #19: You say: ``might have been note worthy but definately not quite significant``. It would be an education to find out how something is noteworthy but not significant. Please enlighten me.”



Sorry for the delay...I missed this bit earlier on.

What I tried to point out was commonplaceness of such events, demonstrations and experiences in our grand democracy. Such in-your-face confrontations are not too unusual....and I am sure all of us Indians have ever paid a visit to a railway station without directly or indirectly being witness to such incidences.

While it was a run of the mill demonstration of VHP which as you describe no one was particularly paying attention to, one also fails to understand the purpose of those female demonstrators showing placards of ‘No more blood’ and ‘peace in Gujarat’, especially when there is no more blood & peace indeed is prevailing. In my opinion both had no real causes for staging their demonstrations but the fact is that both did and many hundreds are being carried out for various reasons or for no reasons at all every day through out the nation. Last week in Baroda the lawyers staged demonstrations and went on strike for three days because a traffic policeman gave a parking violation ticket to an esteemed lawyer! One lawyer even threatened to jump of from the court building if the commissioner of police did not apologize, unfortunately for the large crowd of spectators he chickened out at the last minute and gave some vague lawyerish explanation.

Only thing which bothers me is that by narrating this incidence in the way you did, you seem to imply that it carries some greater meaning. If that was not the intention than may be I was wearing tinted glasses and read something more than intended.

Anyhow It would be interesting to know more about your meeting with that VHP fellow. Keep us posted.

Regards

stuka #99

I do not object to even a single measure you have proposed. I cannot agree with you more that undoing injustice to ALL indians in J&K is an important first step.

All I object to is the pretence that no outside interference has taken place in J&K. This is what propagandists like Urstruly are doing. A recent report in the Pakistani newspaper The Times estimated that the peace-loving folks in Pakistan and the Gulf are funding approximately $100 million per year in funding the insurgency. There needs to be accounatability for this kind of terrorist fund raising.

#98 by Sobia on March 13, 2003 11:18pm PT

[my dear, if i wanted to engage in an argument with you, i would`ve done so a long time back...but because there`s no point reasoning with idiots like you, i didn`t say much then and i won`t say much now.]

And pray tell, what exactly is that you`re doing now?

[People like you are so narrow-minded and blinded in your hatred that you`re not willing to look at anything other than what suits your own interest.]

Coming from the land that is the epicenter of the hatred that is consuming much of the world right now, are you telling us that? Give us a break lady.

[Anyhow, cheers..I don`t think I`m going to exchanging any more posts with you or others like you.]

Good riddance.

Stuka,

But the fact is as Dilip pointed out, that the cops seemed to be uninterested in checking the behavior of these behaiya admieh. To what extent are the police complicit in the bullying tactics of the VHP? Hasn`t this question been asked for the last 3 years?

PMishra2:

Do you really think that the situation in J&K today is because of ``indian oppression``?


I do think the situation in Kashmir was ignited by political manouvres of the Central Government led by Indiara Gandhi. As such I had and have no sympathy for the Muslims in the valley because they showed no sympathy for the Hindus there either.

However, the victims of insurgency are always widespread not just in Kashmir but in the north east and any other place as well. I say again, if you look at the steps that Urstruly mentions, and ignore the ``blame game`` and rhetoric, those steps are essential.

What, amongs the ten actions that are mentioned, would you object to? BTW, growing up as a military brat, to me the Armed Forces are my family`s bread and butter and I would never go against them. I also know however that excess, not as policy but in implementation of counter insurgency, is routine. The healing touch can and does provide wonders in winning over a hostile populace. There is a huge difference in the way the army is percieved in Shia areas where recruitment in to JAK Rifles has taken place and Srinagar where the individual is humiliated in routine cordon and search operations.

re: hxn

my dear, if i wanted to engage in an argument with you, i would`ve done so a long time back...but because there`s no point reasoning with idiots like you, i didn`t say much then and i won`t say much now. It`s a little like going around in circles. People like you are so narrow-minded and blinded in your hatred that you`re not willing to look at anything other than what suits your own interest. Oh and please go on and tell me you don`t want to learn about secularism and hatred from a Pakistani because that`s what you`re so good at, aren`t you? Telling Pakistanis just how wonderful, secular and liberal you are. Anyhow, cheers..I don`t think I`m going to exchanging any more posts with you or others like you.

re:#89 by stuka
The point i am trying to make is this: there are crappy things going on on both sides of the border, so why gloat over your enemy`s weaknesses? I did not start this argument. Most of the time i am the respondent to some stupid thing being said on the chowk.
I only pointed out blasphemy laws, honor killings, weak kneed response to terrorism as things Pak cannot be proud of. No clear cut laws exist in the defense of the accused in the first 2 cases. Instead of saying this is all just crap, realise that something is wrong here and at least try to be critical. When Godhra and other such bad things happen in India, at least most of us Indians on chowk were very critical.
Sridhar

sobia # 5

thanks for the shout out...its good to see you`re still smarting from the verbal thrashing you deserved over your unconscionable remarks on the slaying of daniel pearl.

shouldn`t you be somewhere justifying a palestinian sucide bombing or something?

#89 Stuka

Do you really think that the situation in J&K today is because of ``indian oppression``? I do not.

I have lived in J&K. My mother was born in Srinagar. Since the late 80`s her (and my) extended family has been ethnically cleansed and pushed out to the south near Udhampur and Jammu. Livelihood and homes have been abandoned. I have been witness to the systematic murder and terrorization of minorities and moderates. I still remember the murder of the muslim Kashmir University VC from the 80s because he ``dared`` to question the use of violence against non-military people.

Let us get real about the situation there. Overwhelming indian military presence and occassional over-response is a response to jihadism and violence. The latter is supported openly throughout Pakistan and the Gulf area. Both must be addressed in any reasonable discussion. Otherwise, we are talking about one-sided propaganda.

Urstruly`s comments are no different from my offering to be your friend provided you pay me back the $10,000 US you owe me. That was my point.

re: arjunm

{India must? Or else what}

..or else they will whine and cry like they have for the past 50 years, and once in a while find a farceanna to cry with them....

The following is a 10 point agenda suggested for Kashmir. As an Indian and a confirmed Hawk, I will put forth my perspective.

``1. India must declare absolute amnesty to all freedom fighter groups with absolutely no strings attached. Who doesn`t want to live in peace.? This action will help separate those who want peace from those who dont. ``

This can be done for all militants who belong to Indian Kashmir. The same can not and as matter of principle should not be extended to Pakistanis and Afghans. Implementation of this step will make clear the role of ``guest militants`` as well build bridges with alienated Kashmiris.

2. India must formally apologize to all Kashmiris for inflicting so much misery and pain to its people using state aparatus.

Should be done to Kashmir as well as Punjab. The apology should not be for counter insurgency operations per se, but the human rights abuses that have occured alongside.

3. India must specifically apologize to all victims of rape by its army and law enforcement agencies.

While I hoighly doubt the incidence of rape in a numerical sense as propounded by Islamic and Pakistani groups, the fact is that these incidents have occured. Apology and compensation to maximum possible extent should be given.

4. India must establish rape crisis centers all around Kashmir to provide releif to the rape victims. Hindu social workers, preferably women, from mainland India must come to Kashmir to heel the emotional wounds that these unfortunate women have suffered.

As related to previous point, the above can and should be done. The social workers religion should not be an issue, and if it is not, majority of the women will be Hindu. It will allow empathy with victims and a sense of acceptance to all.

5. India must establish special victim units to provide relief to the orphans and widows of those Kashmiris whose fathers and husbands died fighting for freedom of their homeland.

The same has been done in Punjab by NGOs and can be done in Kashmir as well.

6. India must immediately abolish the draconian law such as Disturbed Area act of 1990, which gives absolute authority to Indian Army to murder or rape any one without impunity.

The language used above is misleading. No Indian law, including the diturbed areas act, allows rape. The law can be repealed following the implementation of a ceasefire with militant groups.

7. India must give Kashmir a special economic rebuild package, for the next ten years to cover all the loses that Kashmiris have suffered at the hand of state apparatus.

Can be done without any problem.

8. All the illegally established torture cells, interogation canters must immediately be shut down all acreoss Kashmir.

This is a natural consequence of an end to insurgency through ceasefire.

9. The death squads of Indian Army who hunt for freedom fighters, and set the villages abalze when can`t find them must be called off.

See above.

10. International Human rights orgs must be allowed into Kashmir to monitor all these actions.


See above.


Urstruly`s points cannot be deemed objectionable by any fair minded person. Previous ceasefires have failed however because meaningful talks have not followed. This has happened because India and Pakistan do not even have a vision of a solution, unlike the Israelis and Palestenians. If a high level vision is shared, then a ceasefire followed by above steps are a natural consequence.

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Arjunm#88

I apologize for my strong language. Please try to look at neither the messenger nor the medium (words) but the message.

Dear rsridhar

I am not pointing towards shortcomings of India, as you put it. As a matter of fact I am pointing towards the strengths of India that it can have. For a second try to ignore that what I wrote in my #79, is written by an enemy of yours; instead try to imagine that it is written by a human being. I am not pushing anyone`s political agenda. I cannot be ``an agent`` of Pakistani government, a government that I despise so much more than you do.

If you look at the things impartially, you will see that it all boils down to a simple fact called ``admission of guilt``. Admission of guilt is not a bad thing, it is actually one of the greatest things that can happen to one, because it sets you free. I am not an idealist, I dont speak of idealism. Dont you see, that admission of guilt in the Truth & Reconciliation Commission of South Africa has set those people free from decades of misery, fear, and attrocities. It has also earned them a unique respect among the community of nations. It has made them great. Please give others the right to live, it will set you free also.

PMishra2``

God knows I have abused UrsTruly enough on this very website. However, the points that he makes demand nothing for Pakistan. They are simply steps to win over Kashmiris who we like to call Indian citizens. In reality there may be practical issues to deal with. Implementation is not easy. But, in principle, I see nothing wrong with any of the points he makes.

Rsridhar:

It will take me all of three minutes to print equally crappy stuff about India.

What is being ignored here is the reality that exists in India.

I agree with Sameer`s concept which he propounded in another board. The VHP people have the freedom to think as they do. The SIMI people have the freedom to think as they do. The government`s job is to mantain the sancitity of Law and Order. If some VHP goon smacks a woman around, the cops should have arrested him.

The only blame I assign in this incident is to the cops.

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