Excavating India

Dear Farzana,

Thanks so much for the article, which I’ve just seen. It really opened my eyes to the way even apparently “liberal” and so-called “leftist/Communist” Muslims think and feel. I have plenty of Muslim friends and I’ve always believed we can talk on any subject, even Hindu and Muslim fundamentalism and the way both groups have been wrecking our country, and they’ve never mentioned even a tenth of the things you say. Now I know why thugs like the VHP and Bajrang Dal have managed to enter mainstream politics. If all Muslims feel the way you do, no wonder they arouse such a violent response among non-Muslims.

I know that I’m quite a bit late in writing back to you, but I’d still like to point out a few things about your article, and hope you’ll read what I write dispassionately and not just trash it as hate mail, just because I’m a Hindu. Because this isn’t hate mail, and though I don’t think I can convince you to accept my point of view I do believe that there are always at least two sides to every story and every conflict, and before we make sweeping statements about anything we should be properly informed about what we’re saying.

1. Why this anger about the archaeological excavations in Ayodhya? I thought the basic problem arose because there’s a long-standing tradition that Babur the conqueror destroyed a Hindu temple to Ram to build a mosque. This is in keeping with what all the Muslim invaders of India have done (and certain Indian Muslim kings, too, unfortunately), in order to justify their loot and plunder to themselves. My understanding was that (a) Muslims believe that there was no temple that was demolished, and (b) they don’t worship at a place that has been built after destroying another place of worship. Am I wrong? As I follow it, the excavations should prove or disprove the contention that a Hindu temple was destroyed to erect the mosque, so that should settle things once and for all. That’s why I don’t understand why you (and so many others) object to this. Surely you’d want an end to all this fighting? Do you question the archaeologists’ motives or competence? If you do, demand that an observer of proven integrity and ability, whom you trust – preferably a Muslim – joins the dig. Or is it that you’re afraid that there really will be some kind of proof that there was a temple at the site, which was destroyed deliberately to build a mosque?
2. Why should anyone think of excavating the area around the Taj Mahal? It’s not a question of it being built on a temple which was deliberately demolished. The RSS or whatever claim that there used to be a Rajput fort/palace, but that doesn’t have the same emotive appeal of a place of worship. So it’s not a matter of tourists bringing in money, nor Hindus profiteering from what a Muslim built, that stops anyone from demanding excavations there, which seems to be what you’ve suggested. In any case, most of the people making a quick buck off the tourists there happen to be Muslims, if you’ve noticed that.

The point is that Ram is worshipped by thousands of Indians (Hindus) – by the way (not that it matters), I’m certainly not one of them – and they believe, rightly or wrongly, that Ram was born at the place where the Masjid once stood. They should be proved wrong. And don’t try to argue that Ran never existed. You will only be asked inflammable things like how do you prove Mohammed, or Christ, or whoever, existed, and there’s no end to this sort of thing. Let’s get this over once and for all, and get on with our lives.
2. Don’t you think that remark about Hindus building and removing pandals anywhere and everywhere was deliberately offensive? It’s obvious you have no idea about Hindu practices! And there’s a vast difference between destroying a temple that existed (supposedly – that’s what the excavations are supposed to prove or disprove) from about the 11th century at least to a makeshift pandal that is meant to be dismantled immediately afterwards. I could have reminded you about the tazias that spring up everywhere before Moharram but I don’t think it’s relevant – nor could I descend to that level of discourse.
3. These worshippers, as you call them, have existed before the Prophet Mohammed himself, and certainly long before 1993. Ram has been worshipped in India before the Greeks came. Look up contemporary Greek chronicles about Alexander the Great’s invasion.
4. I’m no supporter of Uma Bharati or people like her, but remember also her interview on Aaj Tak with Prabhu Chawla some time back in Seedhi Baat, in which she said that those who demolish places of worship are neither Hindus or Muslims but simply demons. This may of course be a political statement, and probably was. But let’s not jump to conclusions about what she said and did just because she’s a Hindu fundamentalist.
5. I don’t know whether Muslims will vote for people who promise to rebuild the Babri Masjid, but it seems that political parties who depend on their vote believe that they will. I do agree that there will be a number of Hindus who will vote for those who promise to rebuild the old Ram Temple at Ayodhya, but many more will vote on grounds of performance in other spheres.
6. If the Hindus didn’t want peace there wouldn’t any Muslims living in India now.
7. What “decision” are you thinking of? Migrating to Pakistan or wherever? It’s statements like these that cause mistrust and suspicion of Muslim intentions.
8. (a) What made you think that all Hindus welcome astrology in the educational curriculum?
(b) Astrology is not a compulsory subject in any University where it’s been introduced.
(c) The objection to madarsas is not the backward-looking education it imparts – which even Islamic theocratic states like Pakistan admit – but that they are only too frequently used by enemies of the state to sow discord and disaffection in the minds of Indians, who also happen to be young Muslims. What is the connection between suggesting that astrology be introduced as a vocational course and opposing the way madarsas are abused?
9. It seems you’re trying to justify cross-border terrorism by Pakistan on grounds of the post-Godhra Gujarat riots. This should be music to the ears of Narendra Modi and others of his ilk. Why do you think the riots happened in the first place? And why do you think the riots were so severe and so prolonged? Why was there so much of dereliction of duty by officials at the time? It wasn’t simply political pressure. There’s hatred of Muslims in Gujarat for reasons obvious to me (and apparently not to you). Why do you think Muslims are being asked to apologise? These poor Muslims, for no fault of their own, are being forced to pay the price for statements and actions of their co-religionists, who can do all this with impunity because they believe that they are safe. Which they are. No-one has dared to do anything about them because they can claim to be political victims. What happened in Gujarat is shocking, terrible, and there can be no two opinions about this, or any excuses. But what provoked it, and I’m not talking about Godhra alone, is never referred to by Muslims. Why?
10. Are you being deliberately dense – and it’s obvious you’re also being deliberately offensive - when you talk about Hindus making an animal their mother? Don’t you know that for Hindus the cow is a symbol of the generosity of God, that she represents God, and that she is called a mother because of her many gifts to human beings? Grow up! Hindus don’t think of the cow as a substitute for their own mothers! There has to be a difference between a symbol and what it symbolizes. It’s really so sad that an apparently educated Indian, no matter of what religion, could be so ignorant.
11. What’s wrong with the Prime Minister expressing his personal beliefs about eating beef? How is that offensive to Muslims? Does he stop them from eating beef? (Remember that the demand for banning cow slaughter comes from the so-called “secular” Congress.)
12. The Mughals weren’t a colonial power from the time of Humayun onwards, because they were born in the Indian subcontinent, and many of them had Hindu blood. You shouldn’t call people like Akbar, Shahjehan or even Aurangzeb colonial rulers.
13. India didn’t become an Islamic state during Mughal rule for the simple reason that there was no India in the modern-day sense of the term. But the Delhi Sultanate (under the Mughals) was certainly Islamic in some ways at least – it imposed the jezia tax on Hindus, and stopped them from riding horses, and so on. Not that it matters. In spite of every attempt India remained obstinately Hindu because Hinduism is an inclusive way of life and welcomes every way of thinking into its fold. (Or used to, before the politicians got into the act.) This is what worries Indian followers of religions like Christianity and Islam, because they want to retain their exclusive identity.
14. India doesn’t need constantly to remind itself that it is a Hindu-majority state – everybody knows it is, everywhere in the world. It’s basically the so-called Muslim leaders who seem to have forgotten facts. A little bit of introspection about the role of political parties here – the Leftists in particular - would help. This would also help to explain why the Hindus feel as much at siege as Muslims.
15. The demand for excavations of sites which Hindus claim Muslims destroyed temples to build their own places of worship would have stopped long ago if Muslims had said, “Yes, the mosques were built on destroyed temples. But we didn’t do it. Why should we have to suffer for whatever our ancestors did, or were supposed to have done? We can’t put the clock back. So why don’t both communities worship at the places both of us feel are holy?” But no, this wasn’t done.
16. Who told you Hindus didn’t protest when the Babri Masjid was brought down? The Shankaracharyas didn’t protest because they felt – no matter how wrongly (or rightly) – that a historic wrong was being set right. I personally don’t agree with this, because I feel that you can’t rewrite history, and, besides, two wrongs don’t make a right. If Hindus want to think of themselves as superior why should they drag themselves down to the level of vandals who think by destroying someone’s place of worship (even if it isn’t used) they are restoring the pride of their community? You’ll remember that most of the protests at the demolition of the mosque were (and are being) made by Hindus.
17. There needs to be some thinking about why is it that some Muslims have to assert their Indianness, why they aren’t they regarded as being patriotic. And it’s here that statements like yours need to be taken into account. Surely all Indians – which means Muslims as well - want India to defeat Pakistan, and not just in cricket, because of the systematic way in which it has been attacking us, and the basis of our composite culture and society. Or are you suggesting that Muslims should support Pakistan against India because Pakistan is a Muslim country, and a victory for Pakistan is a victory for Islam? Bal Thackeray wins because of ideas like these. There are, and always have been, Muslims in the Indian cricket team who do the country proud. Certainly these cricketers aren’t anti-Islam just because they play for India.
18. Yes, I quite agree with you that nationalism and religion should have been played out entities in today’s globalized world. That should put paid to the existence of (a) Pakistan and (b) Pakistan-and-Islamic-sponsored terrorism in Kashmir, which has driven thousands more Hindus out of their homes and killed many more of them than Muslims in Gujarat. You should realize that the Gujarat riots weren’t a once-off thing – the wounds, real and imaginary, go deep into the psyche of both communities.
19. You can’t compare Sai Baba to Imam Bukhari, for the Baba never makes controversial political statements, nor are any of his ashrams havens for self-confessed Islamic terrorists who believe they should kill and destroy for the sake of their religion. But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t make a careful inquiry into the Baba’s source of funds, his alleged miracles and misdemeanours, and so on - in the same way that those of Imam Bukhari, Christian missionaries and rightist Hindu organizations should be examined. But the Imam’s other, apparently anti-national, activities are quite another matter, and need to be tackled as well.
20. It’s amazing that you think of Muslims being underdogs. They aren’t. The poor ones are, certainly, just as all the poor anywhere – regardless of religion or community – are. It seems that you’re still living in the period where you could gloat over the glories of Muslim rule in India just because you’re a Muslim – they were top dog then and aren’t so now - and can’t accept the reality of a multireligious society, in which you just can’t ride roughshod over the feelings of other religious groups. When will you learn that others have feelings too, and many more of them have suffered at least as much at the hands of Muslims as Muslims have in a once-off situation in Gujarat? You know, more than half the Muslims’ problems would be over once they publicly accepted and regretted the harm their co-religionists inflicted on others. There are plenty of Hindus who continuously point out how terrible Hindu society is, and has been in the past; it’s shocking that Muslim atrocities in the present are only defended by, or received with a deafening silence from, apparently liberal Mulsims.

Think over what I’ve said. From the way you ended your article, it’s pretty obvious that you don’t want to accept any point of view other than your own, but it would be nice once in a while to recognize that others also have a right to their point of view, and that they may be more correct and logical than you. It’s hard for you, I know, but just try.

Farzana I suppose would be quiet on this issue.
But no comments from anyone about the massacre of Hindus in the Valley. And not to forget the thousands of Kashmiri Pandits who have fled their ancestoral homes.

Is it because Hindus are not supposed to be the victims? Only muslims all over the world are bein gvictimised, isn`t it Farzana..

When all the previously victimised Hindus have been converted to Islam, then how can they whinge and complain.

All this caste discussion in posts 135 and 136 about ``Sangilikkaruppan``

I am not aware of this much `caste awareness` (or should I call it distinction) in North India. Maybe it is more prevelant in South India. I lived in the south for couple of years, I remember my South Indian brahmin friends telling me how strict their parents are at the time of marriage, with each and every gotra in teh kundali(astrological chart) beign matched. And also that they don`t marry even a bit lower level brahmin, it has to be the same higher level brahmin.

I am from north indian kshtriya class and have a brahmin north indian bhabi, we don`t think she is higher or anything and nor does her family think so.

I donot think any Kshatriya(warrior class/king class) or Vaishya(business class) are dying to get their children married in a Brahmin family? What would they get by doing so? Neither are the Khatris(warrior class kshtriyas) just fighting any wars these days nor are Vaishyas(arora busienss class) just doing business.
Times changed long ago. Now, we have highly educated people in all classes and castes, not just brahmins.
Similarly, I have not seen any extra grants or prestige being given to the pundit ji in a mandir. I mean, if I have to choose between `joining the army/navy` or `becoming a head-pundit` of even the best temple in the city, I would prefer to be a `fauji`.

Even the business class has done very well for the country. So, money and economy does well this way. Brahmins have also business men (and faujis). Even the lowest class/caste people are shunning their traditional roles, if they can.
Look at our army, a mixture fo all castes and relgions.

But we do indeed have a brahmin performing the rituals at the time of birth, marriage, death etc so we can`t underestimate that. And that`s it.

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Ref Urstruly #133

[Is ``Sangilikkaruppan`` a cuss word in Sanskrit?]

No. Honestly, Sangilikkaruppan is a very good Tamil name for a male. Other names common in Tamil Nadu are Sudalaikkannu, Sudalaimuthu, Maasanamuthu, Nallakannu, Karuppannasamy, Ezhumalai, etc. However, the parents of folks like Soysauce, instead of picking one of these traditional names of Tamil Nadu, usually choose to name their kids Tamil Mani (Tamil Jewel), Tamil Arasan (Tamil King), Anbarasan (Love King), etc. I refuse to accept such names for Soysauce and call him Sangilikkaruppan or Maasanamuthu.

Interestingly, some of these guys in turn name their kids Lavanya, Akshaya, Vidya, etc., all of which are Sanskrit words. I refuse to accept these names also and that is why I refer to Soysauce`s daughter as Love Queen. I suppose I could have chosen to call her Karuppayee.

[From Haimau`s post I understand two things:

1. Soysauce IS preceived as a threat to Brahmin establishment. (My initial assessment was incorrect.]

Not at all true. People like Soysauce who have abused a quota system meant to benefit the downtrodden to get a professional degree are no threat to any person of intellectual integrity. The only threat, if Soysauce is a physician, is to the general public at large. This is well-known to the vote-bank politicians of India. In fact, right now the champion of quota-based professional education in Tamil Nadu, Murasoli Maran, is undergoing treatment (for the last three months or more -- at the expense of the Indian government because he is a Minister in the Central Cabinet) for a defective heart valve in Houston, TX, knowing fully well that if he put himself in the hands of the doctors he has created in the last 40 years, he would have been dead long ago. Soysauce has no problems with this because he knows his own incompetence but is able to make a good living off the long-suffering people of India.

[2. Soysauce wants to emulate the brahmin exploits. This needs explanation. First of all it is an admission that brahmins exploit but then how a lower caste hindu would emulate brahmin exploitativeness by asking to be recognized as a lower caste. This beats the logic. You can either have one or the other.]

There is a difference between exploits and exploitation. Brahmin exploits are well-known including the only two Nobel Prizes in Physics that Indians have won. The first person to graduate from the Engineering College at Guindy, Madras, back in the nineteenth century was a brahmin. Brahmins also enrolled in large numbers as surveyors and worked on the Great Trigonometrical Survey of India by George Everest, dying in the process because of malaria or tiger attacks. South Indian brahmins of the 1950s went to Russia and learnt how to build and operate steel plants and built the steel plant at Bhilai with Russian assistance. The fact that these people spent years in Russia adhering to their vegetarian lifestyle where no vegetables are available during the harsh winter speaks volumes about their dedication. Unfortunately, Soysauce believes that going to a foreign country on assignment is a plum job (much like Pak Army officers going to the Middle East) and figured that if only he could get into a professional college, he would also be able to go abroad for personal enrichment.

Soysauce, or Sangilikkaruppan to use the name he would have received two generations ago, has been raised on a steady propaganda that brahmins exploited the poor of Tamil Nadu and it is the duty of the non-brahmins to overthrow the alleged brahmin domination of the political and employment sphere. The regular use of movies and party newspapers to heap abuse on brahmins led to the complete elimination of brahmins (at 3% of the population, a minuscule minority) from public life and along with that probity in government. Emboldened agricultural workers refused to pay brahmin landlords their share of the produce and the brahmin landlords, few in number anyway, sold their lands to people like Soysauce who do not stop at murder and rape to get the farm workers to behave. The agricultural laborers who would not have received even a beating from their brahmin landlords (Sangilikkaruppan would be the first one to point out that brahmins practiced Untouchability against all castes but would conveniently forget the fact that then they could not possibly lay hands on anybody to beat them) are now routinely murdered if they so much as say one word to their non-brahmin landlords.

No, Sangilikkaruppan does not want to emulate brahmin exploits (he is intellectually incapable of doing that) but wants to emulate the alleged brahmin exploitation of lower castes. He then needs to explain why Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore banned the money-lender caste of Chettiars from showing up near government offices on payday to collect their usurious interest (they will never take back the principal amount). You can be sure of one thing: Sangilikkaruppan will never convert to Islam because Islam bans interest-bearing loans.

[I would also like to see soysauce`s opinion here. He seems to me to be an ultra-pacifist. He need not worry. Sometimes I dont bite, especially, when I am in learning mode.]

Sangilikkaruppan does not have an original thought, so don`t expect his considered opinion but only a rehash of the propaganda that he has been fed since childhood. He is not an ultra-pacifist, just an a$$-kisser. He does not even know that the leaders he has been following such as Father Big Man, The Great Intellectual and the Doctor Artist Leader actually observed August 15, 1947, as a day of mourning taking out black-flag processions, having failed in their bid to have the British stay on as the colonial masters. As to freeing the downtrodden from cruel exploitation, Father Big Man & Company railed against the Salt March of Gandhi who was protesting the cruel Salt Tax that fell heavily on the poor; so much for their concern for the poor citizens of India. Don`t expect to learn anything from this idiot; you might as well enroll in a college in Tamil Nadu such as the one Sangilikkaruppan attended.

Ref Sangilikkaruppan #134

Urstruly said [As a matter of fact, I think he (soy) wants to maintain the status quo of unequality of castes (judging from his posts)]

and you replied

[Other than religion, what other drugs are you on?]

Hey, Sangilikkaruppan; you are absolutely right. You want to erase the inequality between your caste and the brahmins but don`t care about the inequality between you and a Dalit. Want proof? Read the matrimonials. How many Chettiars and Mudaliars are asking for brahmin brides hoping that they could snare at least a dirt-poor brahmin girl in preference to one of their own castes who might bring them a ton of money as dowry? By the way, I haven`t seen a single one of those Chettiars and Mudaliars asking for a Dalit bride.

Trying to improve the gene pool, I suppose. Your gene pool could use chlorination, not incremental improvement.

Urstruly:
I want to know why soysauce is hated so much by so many Hindus.

Prove it.

As a matter of fact, I think he (soy) wants to maintain the status quo of unequality of castes (judging from his posts)

Other than religion, what other drugs are you on?

Is ``Sangilikkaruppan`` a cuss word in Sanskrit? From Haimau`s post I understand two things:

1. Soysauce IS preceived as a threat to Brahmin establishment. (My initial assessment was incorrect.

2. Soysauce wants to emulate the brahmin exploits. This needs explanation. First of all it is an admission that brahmins exploit but then how a lower caste hindu would emulate brahmin exploitativeness by asking to be recognized as a lower caste. This beats the logic. You can either have one or the other.

I would also like to see soysauce`s opinion here. He seems to me to be an ultra-pacifist. He need not worry. Sometimes I dont bite, especially, when I am in learning mode.

Ref FarzanaVersey #129

[- I have never asked any Hindu (except the PM) to apologise for Babri or Gujarat. In fact, I think that is the big problem.]

Finally, you agree with me on something! I have always said that Hindus have nothing to apologize for.

[And the last people I want an apology from are NRIs.]

Good thing. You certainly won`t get one from me.

[- Oh dear, I am supposed to be laying the guilt on someone here personally…and yet with all that guilt he can spout his venom everywhere, not just on my boards.]

Venom? How about food for thought? How about (metaphorically) picking you up, shaking you and setting you down and asking if you can think more clearly?

[- This article was written when the excavation at Ayodhya started. (Ashis Nandy had given a wonderful argument against it in Sunday’s TOI.) Topicality. It was not that I discovered I had a Hindu driver.]

I suppose that is a cheap shot at my article ``A Chance Remark``.

Farzana, are you sitting down as you read this? Do you have the phone number of a physician handy? Because, I am going to let you in on a fact and you may actually pop an artery when you read it: my family in Chennai employs not one but two Muslim drivers.

No, no, no; don`t change your mind about me because of that. Maybe someday you will all learn to separate rhetoric from personal beliefs.

PS. Would you care for some Zam Zam water? It may cure you of whatever it is that ails you.

PPS. Did you have to call a doctor? Inquiring minds want to know.

#129 by FarzanaVersey on March 18, 2003 9:27pm PT

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Mughal miniatures were nowhere in sight. This was deliberate.
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Maybe it was delibrate. We can never know what happens in our ‘incredible India’. I read some articles by Coomi kapoor. She does come out very strongly with her views.


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I am afraid your post is less positive than my attitude! ………….
Forced conversions did take place, but Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today and no one is forcing some westerners to convert.
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My post sounded more negative than my real attitude.

And what happens in the west or the rest of the world has nothing to do with the history of our country. We are we, they are they. Just like Hinduism in Nepal or Indonesia etc (I saw a documentary on Indonesian Hindu rituals which I could not even relate to), is different from Indian Hinduism. I have seen all the white people belonging to Hare Krishna sect much more devoted to Krshna than any Indian Hindu, I mean the way they chant and dance in euphoria, we don’t.

So, what happens in their countries is theirs. We have to improve our versions of Hinduism and Islam as distinct from the rest of the world, without bothering too much about Muslim brotherhood or Hindu bhai chara. Reason being, we have been(are) a secular country till now and have this big task of maintaining the same.

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You had stated earlier that you went out of your way to befriend Muslims to work at cohesiveness.
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Nope…I stated earlier that I make sure I am friendly with all non-Hindus, I didn’t say only Muslims.
Overseas, we are all the same, just Indians. First question we ask a stranger Indian-looking person is: Are you Indian? If there is a ‘yes’ to this answer, the next question is: Which state/city? None cares, which religion.

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“For most of us here, the effort is not required; it is a natural process. “
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Wow Farzana…congrats..this was the best part of your post.. Yes, that is what I wanted to hear. That we are secular after all, we are one. That in India we don’t have to make any special efforts to be secular. It is inbuilt in the multicultural social structure by now.
Oh yes, Ghettos are everywhere indeed, so no worries…people feel comfortable with their own kind.

And Farzana, the way you write all the names of Bombay (I mean Mumbai) suburbs sounds really ‘mast’. Being a northie I have never been to Bombay but would like to.

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And except for the political parties, not many Hindus care a fig about whether Muslims think they are ‘kafirs’ or not
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Yes, I was brought up in India and never heard anyone calling me ‘kafir’ (infact didn’t even know the meaning of it). But sometimes they are at each others necks, these two communities, maybe just for fun and ‘time-pass’ or just fighting like kids. But they forget it soon, I feel.

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And the last people I want an apology from are NRIs.
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Oh my my, we NRIs don’t feel good being outcasted like this. Hum kahan jaaein bolo.

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Some of us are really nice, but then we are the real Indians. I am sure you already know the difference by now.
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Yes, Urstruly and others ‘Hum logon ko samjh sako to samjho dilwar jaani, jitna humko samjogey utnee hogi hairani, phir bhi dil hai Hindustani… ’

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Layman (#114):
You say the Babri Masjid had no religious significance for the Muslims; true. That is, until the issue was politicised and the Hindus made it into ‘their’ religious agenda. Naturally, many Muslims felt that the structure was of much more significance as a response. And right now, it is the reason for the major cleavage between the two communities. Hoarse voices keep shouting that there is no need to rake it up when developmental issues lie dormant, but it is the responsibility of the government. And the government, its emissaries, its cohorts are doing their darndest to keep the subject alive, and people are responding to that. I have mentioned in my article that even after the HC verdict the VHP had the gall to make its separate pronouncements. Sure, it is not a part of the government, neither is SIMI a part of any government. We must accept that such organisations do have tacit support.

Re. Magnanimity, believe me, were the Muslims to do so, NOTHING will be solved. Forget just the BJP, the Congress too will be left in the lurch. And then, where does it end? We already have the Jains claiming rights over the site, and some Buddhists too.

m_souza (#117):
The point is not whether or not Mughal art has been appreciated or not, but at this NRI event it was not available for viewing. This was a special art fiesta bringing together the works that represented Indian art from different periods. Mughal miniatures were nowhere in sight. This was deliberate. (Reported in the Express of somewhere around that time – I keep paper cuttings, which are discarded or get frayed after a while, so cannot provide the exact date. It was written by Coomi Kapoor, though.)

I am afraid your post is less positive than my attitude! I don’t care whether Hindus appreciate Muslim food, customs, art and vice versa – I am talking about how a certain part of history is sought to be wiped out. Forced conversions did take place, but Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today and no one is forcing some westerners to convert.

There are many ‘Muslim’ things I would not want to have anything to do with, therefore I have a right to forgo and dismiss Hindu, Christian, Sikh, and Scientology as well.

You had stated earlier that you went out of your way to befriend Muslims to work at cohesiveness. For most of us here, the effort is not required; it is a natural process. There are ghettoes everywhere for all communities, not restricted to Muslims. If I want ‘gun powder’ in Mumbai (mulgapudi, the South Indian chilly powder!) I have to go to Matunga, the Vile Parle area is predominantly Gujarati, Sion-Koliwada is Sikh and Bhendi Bazaar is Muslim.

And except for the political parties, not many Hindus care a fig about whether Muslims think they are ‘kafirs’ or not; in India the reasons are how they (and common Muslims) are being emotionally blackmailed.

We BOTH have to think positively. Not being a mafia don, I am sure at least you can understand what I am saying.
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- I have never asked any Hindu (except the PM) to apologise for Babri or Gujarat. In fact, I think that is the big problem. They apologise, or write apologetic letters/articles and do the Muslims a favour, joined by the ‘liberal’ Muslims. This coterie then decides and creates a quasi mullahism of its own. And the last people I want an apology from are NRIs.

- Oh dear, I am supposed to be laying the guilt on someone here personally…and yet with all that guilt he can spout his venom everywhere, not just on my boards.

- This article was written when the excavation at Ayodhya started. (Ashis Nandy had given a wonderful argument against it in Sunday’s TOI.) Topicality. It was not that I discovered I had a Hindu driver. Besides, people are spending more time here looking for warts in my ‘baby’ instead of feeding their own. And I can write about anything I want.

- I can thank whoever I want to. So a special thank you to urstruly and my apologies to the other liberal Pakistanis who have been forming their opinions based on what some ‘Indians’ here say: This is not what India is about, not all of us need to use foul language, not all of us bend backwards to justify a wrong, not all of us behave so badly. Some of us are really nice, but then we are the real Indians. I am sure you already know the difference by now.

What triggered this article? I mean, there has been no major communal riots even on the anniversary of Godhra; neither Hindus using tridents to kill Muslims nor Muslims hanging beef carcasses on temple walls. Is it due to the the fact that India was winning the important matches in the World Cup? Can not Muslim bakers celebrate that victory by baking tri-colored cakes? Would that be ``objectifying`` India as a model for celebration and does that stick in FartsAnna`s craw? Or is it just plain PMS?

I really don`t understand the motivation for this particular rant at this particular time. Is it just me?

Ref Urstruly #124

[I want to know why soysauce is hated so much by so many Hindus.]

Because Sangilikkaruppan alias Soysauce is a complete fraud who practices the exact opposite of what he preaches.

[I beleive he himself is a hindu - probably he is low caste, but that is not the reason to display hate candidly to him.]

He is most certainlt not of low caste. If one chooses to recogize the caste hierarchy, I bet he belongs to one of the middle castes, one that has land, a business or a pawn shop and who mercilessly exploit the poor.

[Upper caste hindus usually patronize to death the lower ones, in front of Paksitanis, at least, but why soy is different. I dont find soy`s views radically opposed to brahmin establishment. As a matter of fact, I think he (soy) wants to maintain the status quo of unequality of castes (judging from his posts); then why?]

You are wrong. Nothing would please the Brahmin establishment more than the establishment of a meritocracy, with some quotas for **economically** deprived parts of the society. What Sangilikkaruppan wants is caste-based quotas where he could have his caste declared by paid-off politicians to be socially backward so that he could then take advantage of the economically deprived communities whom he and his forefathers have been cruelly exploiting for centuries. Even better, he would then bribe some government official to certify him on paper to be of the Dalit community so that he could get a life-long job with the government (as one Gounder has done at the Regional Engineering College, Trichy, and this guy holds a teaching job, not a chaprasi`s, so you can figure out exactly what ethics the students are learning). In short, he wants to emulate the ``exploitative Brahmins`` he has been told so much about but for which very little proof exists.

In short, it is the hypocrisy of Sangilikkaruppan that exposes him to derision on the Chowk.

I want to know why soysauce is hated so much by so many Hindus. I beleive he himself is a hindu - probably he is low caste, but that is not the reason to display hate candidly to him. Upper caste hindus usually patronize to death the lower ones, in front of Paksitanis, at least, but why soy is different. I dont find soy`s views radically opposed to brahmin establishment. As a matter of fact, I think he (soy) wants to maintain the status quo of unequality of castes (judging from his posts); then why?

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rsaxena #122
I was thinking more of Dawood Bhai who surely knows where to lay his hands on tactical and dirty stuff. But first Farzana has to learn to put together two coherent sentences or Dawood Bhai will not be able to make head or tail of what she wants him to do.

Ref FartsAnna #113

[.....And since this thread will be out soon, unlike entrenched beliefs, I want to thank ..... soysauce.......]

I knew you would pick that brown-nosed a$$-kisser.

[m_souza(#100) ....
Zafar (#106): ........
(#104):]

No name for me? I am SOOOOO hurt!

[I have to apologise for a bomb blast in a Mulund train?]

Isaid {I notice that two days have passed and not one of you Islamist thugs have condemned it, Since you are a feminist, how about condemning it from the perspective that it is cowardly to attack women?} So where does the question of apologizing arise?

[By not condemning it, it is assumed I wanted it to happen? And now the feminist argument is thrown…]

But Hindus have to condemn AND apologize for Babri Masjid, right? What is wrong with the feminist angle anyway? Didn`t the Fakhrs hit a carriage reserved for women only? Aren`t you the one espousing feminist causes? But I must say you are consistent: I don`t remember you condemning the acid attacks on the faces of unveiled Kashmiri women.

[And my driver does not have to give my address to anyone; the Hindutva parties already have it and they send me all the literature and expensive books to let me know the ‘truth’.]

I am sure as a follower of The True Faith, you find those books and literature contain no truth whatsoever.

I said {A public figure HAS to respond publicly. But you managed to make Vajpayee`s statement sound like he was using code words to point to Muslims as cow-killers.} and you responded

[Only you can see such depth. What is the code word, anyway?]

neatly sidestepping the fact that Vajpayee had every right to defend himself publicly much like you b!tch about the sexual innuendoes thrown at you publicly. No amount of dodging around will hide that fact.

[If a god is recognised and worshipped as a ‘lingam’, then there will be such references]

Then the truth about 6-year-old Ayesha will also be dredged up. Fair is fair.

[Thanks for your information on date trees. I am not really keen on knowing about the PMS of the female trees, but it would have helped if you could provide information on the premature menopause of the male trees.]

Male menopause is a myth. PMS is a fact and you are living proof of that. Maybe I should send you a button I found in California: ``It is NOT PMS; I am normally b!tchy!``.

[Of course, since this was 8 years ago, your memory may have dimmed a bit. So do not stretch your mind too much. I shall understand.]

You wish! I can quote your interacts chapter and verse if need be. Remember that gem about the role of the pandits in an `azaadi` Kashmir?

re: sadna #116

...maybe farceanna can herself lead the charge by strapping a bomb to herself and setting it off somewhere in india?....

Reply ArjunM

``So you dont expect hindus to apologize for the babri masjid demolition?``

No, man, only apologise for that if you knocked it down. Otherwise but why?

arjun_m #116
Even after `they` got their own country and donot need to meet a single Hindu in their whole life, `they` still feel the need to whine about Hindus, all over their textbooks, all over their newspapers, all over websites like chowk, all the time. Then what to say about the pathetic situation of Muslims like Farzana who actually have to live among `us`(and inevitably be killed by us). Samjhaa karo.

I would advise Farzana to get out of her seige mentality and think big like the Mughals for a change. Her coreligionists need to get themselves some dirty bombs at least if not nukes from their willing cosufferers in Pakistan or Afghanistan. Itsy bitsy stuff which kills only 10-15 people at a time is no good.

dear farzana,don``tdepress.in fact world has changed now.present time is different.we r living in globle village now.i am just sending you the answer..
Question: What is the absolute PERFECT example of ``globalization``?

Answer:
The untimely death of Princess Diana. An English princess with her
Egyptian boyfriend crashes in a French tunnel, driving a German car with a
Dutch engine, driven by a Belgian who was high on Scotch whiskey, followed
closely by Italian paparazzi riding on Japanese motorcycles, treated in
hospital by an American doctor using Brazilian medicines!
And this was sent to me by a Canadian living in the U.S., sipping Kenyan
coffee and nibbling on Swiss chocolate and Chilean raspberries, using
technology Microsoft stole from the Japanese.
You are probably reading this on one of the IBM clones that use
Taiwanese-made chips, and Korean-made monitors, assembled by Bangladeshi
workers in a Singapore factory, transported in trucks driven by Indians,
hijacked by Indonesians, shipped overseas on Liberian-flagged freighters
and finally sold to you!
That, my friend, is Globalization!

+ +

And during this huge jamboree for the pampered lot in Delhi, do you know that there was an art exhibition where all the Mughal miniatures had been removed? But…it is a ‘part of the game’ too

+ +


If the miniatures were removed it might have been for a different reason than what you interpreted. We don’t know. So, you have to make sure first. Because there are many other places where the Mughal art has been displayed and appreciated. Sometimes the Hindus from one state do not appreciate Hindu art forms or food from the other state. So, these things happen within one religion too. Like the hue and cry in the parliament over Hindi, raised by people from Tamil Naidu. And all the ‘hulla-gulla’ and shit created by the political leaders when they are in opposition even if they have same religion. This time Congress almost sounded pro-paksitani…
I myself do not like the sight of those aggressive looking, saffronised, bindi-waale, uneducated Hindus who know nothing about the ancient religion and yet claim to be the sole saviours of it. They have made a mess of Hinduism and disturbed the secularism. They are the same as if not worse than the Muslims who burnt the train in Godhra.

And the Muslims should also ask them selves, how much do they apprericiate the Hindu art and culture of those glorious Hindu days which prevailed for a long long time before the advent of Mughals from the foreign land? Probably, deep in their hearts they too are biased towards the Muslim art and culture, inspite of the fact that the ancestors of Indian Muslims were mostly Hindus. Hindus do appreciate Taj Mahal, Q-Minar etc and go there but how many muslims appreciate Hindu buildings and temples??

See, how hurt you feel even if some of the miniatures are not displayed in some exhibition. Close your eyes and imagine, how atrocious, how awful it must have e been to see the ancient temples being destroyed by likes of Babar and Changhez Khan and on top of that thousands of temples, not just one or two. This anguish, this bitterness ha s been passed on to the current generation of Hindus and they give vent to their pent up feelings. Although it is no use dragging on like this and it would be good to ‘forgive and forget’.


Whether anyone admits or not, many Hindus were converted forcibly into Islam, although some converted into it because they liked it genuinely. See, how the conversions were forced upon Sikh gurus who protested. Guru Gobind ji’s sons were made to die slowly in the confines of brick walls. These things did happen. Some Hindus were brave so they protested but most of them gave in to the demands of time and bowed before the Muslim kings. Now, many (not all) of the same very converted Hindus hate their ancestoral Hindu culture as that is considered appropriate by Islam, isn’t it.


Mughals did some great things but most of these things were not directly inherited from the foreign (Persian/Uzbekistan etc) land where they came from. They brought some new culture, which they blended with the local and some new things emerged. They married local women so the off springs must have had a Hindu as well as Muslim blood.

Look at Urdu, a blend of Hindi and Persian, look at all the curries…and similarly the art and other finer things. And these things were not exclusively created by the Mughals because numerically Hindus still outnumbered the Muslims, even in those eras. Maybe Taj was built by Shahjahan but creatively we all can imagine how many Hindus were behind him, working behind the scenes. He was the king so he got all the credit.

So, it is no good saying this is Muslim this is mine, this is Hindu this is yours. We all do not know what is really ours or not. In fact, everything Indian is ours.

I talked to some Hindus and I feel the root of the whole problem is: the question that comes into the minds of the sensitive(or maybe fanatic) Hindus that even though the roots, the ancestors of most of the sub-continental Muslims were Hindus, yet they do not associate with Hinduism in any way and do not appericiate. Rather they look down upon Hinduism as a ‘kafir’ religion or an inferior one to Islam. So, why should they accept anything Muslim. It is like filmi ‘badley ki bhavnaa’.

And yet Islam is very much one of the religions of our country, with all its festivals, which means it is accepted and respected too.

So, you just have to start looking at things a bit positively.

Farzana..my last post was for you..I did not write your name there I reackon..

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Farzana #52:
I wish I had read your article a lot earlier.

``If he wants to express his personal beliefs, he can tell that to his friends. He is speaking publicly as the PM and responding to accusations in that capacity.``
Sure, not eating beef could be Vajpayee`s personal belief. But he didn`t start the whole thing. Remember, it was the `secular` Congress in Madhya Pradesh who came out with the slogan that Vajpayee eats beef. That was when he was forced to retort publicly, as the MP election was around the corner, and the Congress was making the `cow` an election issue.

With reference to the Babri Masjid issue, I think this is a very difficult issue - I dont really see the courts solving the issue. When the Masjid was demolished in 1992, I was outraged and strongly felt that it had to be re-built, if there was to be justice. But, over the past few years, my thinking has changed. The masjid was not being used for prayer at least since 1947. And apparently, in Islam, a masjid ceases to be one if prayers are not offered for a considerable period of time. Neither was the masjid of any cultural or religious significance to the muslims. On the other hand, the Ram temple that was supposedly demolished and replaced by the masjid, was of special significance to Hindus because it marked the place where Lord Ram was born. So, while I don`t know what the position is legally, I strongly feel that muslims should be magnanimous and agree to hand over the site to the hindus for building a Ram temple, considering that the place is very special to hindus and that a hindu temple was demolished to make way for the masjid.
However, it still leaves a couple of unresolved issues: a) The demolition of the masjid was a crime. What happens to the criminals? b) What if the BJP/VHP types ask for more temples to be restored to hindus? c) What about the principle of secularism - given that the BJP/VHP campaign for the Ram temple has been markedly communal? This is a major shift from the early nineties when Advani used to say that hindus will respectfully shift the Babri Masjid brick by brick to an acceptable area, if the area was granted to the temple.

I do reflect. Always. And since this thread will be out soon, unlike entrenched beliefs, I want to thank nazarhayatkhan, dialogue, ras, soysauce, tahmed (bitterness is relative), amit, samina, scout (the charge of the enlightened femme brigade).

m_souza(#100)
[OkOk…those of us living in foreign lands, do not live in our country like all of you, but we do visit it every year. Staying away from our country has actually made us more aware of the futility of these religious issues. We realize that we have to put an end to the fanaticism of any kind]

Please take a look around here: Not many NRIs seem to be seeing the futility of these issues; in fact they are adding fuel to the fire. See who they felicitate abroad. And during this huge jamboree for the pampered lot in Delhi, do you know that there was an art exhibition where all the Mughal miniatures had been removed? But…it is a ‘part of the game’ too:)

Zafar (#106):
[I thought anybody could go to a mosque...I`ve seen jheepdi madams phiroing in the Heart Of Darkness, aka Delhi`s Jama Masjid...]

What is jheepdi? But I thought women could phirao until the prayers began, but am going by the general trend. Plan to visit Delhi soon and this time I will check it out.

Agree about Golden Delicious. Sounds like a yummy cocktail, too.

(#104):
I have to apologise for a bomb blast in a Mulund train? By not condemning it, it is assumed I wanted it to happen? And now the feminist argument is thrown…some people can never stop. And my driver does not have to give my address to anyone; the Hindutva parties already have it and they send me all the literature and expensive books to let me know the ‘truth’.

[(I suppose it is okay now for me to be a part of Chowk, because the Hindu voice taking on Hindu rituals has been given an airing, so I am not the only one looking for Pakistani votes, right?)
If you read my article carefully, I practically called them non-Hindu rituals.]

Sure you did. Like Sunnis saying Shia rituals are not valid, and Wahabis saying something else, and, why, many Muslims raising their voices against certain customs, including my humble contribution where I talked against animal sacrifice some years ago. (Oh, I have fed bananas to an elephant at the Tiruchendur temple and he did not get sick.)

And I do not have “hate” in my heart; I have anger, disappointment, and some disgust.

[A public figure HAS to respond publicly. But you managed to make Vajpayee`s statement sound like he was using code words to point to Muslims as cow-killers.]

Only you can see such depth. What is the code word, anyway?

[(I suppose now there will not be insinuations about the Prophet’s sex life, and camels and sodomy.)
So long as there are no references to the penis god.]

If a god is recognised and worshipped as a ‘lingam’, then there will be such references; as for negative comments, most come from your friends here, like Shankar.

Thanks for your information on date trees. I am not really keen on knowing about the PMS of the female trees, but it would have helped if you could provide information on the premature menopause of the male trees. Of course, since this was 8 years ago, your memory may have dimmed a bit. So do not stretch your mind too much. I shall understand.

(#93):
[I just got Farzana figured out..Her problem is that she is a spolit malabar hill latte sipping liberal....]

Not a problem, it is sheer pleasure. But you need to make a few changes in location and beverage and the word liberal…like I prefer tea and while Earl Grey is indeed the lady’s choice, she does fancy a prime Assam orange pekoe, and Chinese tea does well too. At home, of course, it has to be chai with adrak, pudina, the works, making it look as dehati as possible. Of course, being spoilt one is doing it only to experience the ‘other’ side. Like, what the heck is ‘latte’? You mean doodh walla coffee? Huh, we have it with ilaichi. But nothing to beat the roasted flavour of kapi at an Udupi joint. However, a certain Mr. Iyer (after the green signal from his driver) might just take me for a hazelnut-flavoured cappuccino at the Movenpik outlet in the Muslim-dominated Khader Nawaz Road in Chennai:)

So, now you have it all figured out…and it is not ‘liberal’ for me, but liberated.

hxn # 111

That`s unfair. Scout has been consistent in her opinions.

scout # 81

``the sooner that desis get religion (hindu muslim crap) out of their systems, the better. ``

aaarrRGGGHHH! while its a noble sentiment, its pretty damned annoying to hear a paki saying it b/c the logical progression in thought is, ``well if pakis don`t think religion is a big deal, then what`ve they been doing these past 56 yrs? if its not a big deal, why all the redrawn borders, forced migrations, millions dead, and terrorism? WHY?``

scout, if my memories` right, you`ve had your share of indo-pak chowk debates. if religion isn`t a big deal - if you`re the desi rodney king (``can`t we all just get along?``) - why defend pakistan? if its just nationalistic pride, i understand but...geez. what a price to pay...

...again, can`t disagree, but aren`t we being a tad inconsistent?

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Don`t know about Jama Masjid itself but Old Delhi is not so bad ... it`s just one big blot of traffic and pollution - but I have fond memories of places near Chandini Chowk, Paranthe Wali Gali, Meena Bazar(outside Jama Masjid), Nai Sadak (not so nai any more) - who knows what they look like now. They were talking of moving the wholesale markets out of Chandini Chowk and starting some preservation efforts 10 years ago - anything ever happen ?

Reply Farzana

The best apples are from Himachal Pradesh, your very favourite Golden Delicious. Will restrain myself from drawing heavy handed political parallels.

I thought anybody could go to a mosque...I`ve seen jheepdi madams phiroing in the Heart Of Darkness, aka Delhi`s Jama Masjid...

Dullabhatti -

Thanks - great site and it`s wonderful that they publish in Punjabi !! The person they quote at the top of their homepage Dr Abraham Kovoor was a famous Indian Rationalist (he lived in Sri Lanka also) and he really was the founding father of rationalism in India. Here is an article on him

http://www.uni-giessen.de/~gk1415/kovoor.htm

The last thing a country like India needs is official promotion of phoney Godmen and theories. I can`t figure out why with the big increase in logic based IT jobs in India superstition seem to be gaining as well. One of my Aunts (Mum`s cousin) was a Sai Baba devotee - her daughter named her kid ``Vibhooti`` ! She died of cancer believing Baba was going to cure her. I can`t tell you how much I can`t stand that creep.

I think the collapse of the Soviets in the 80`s had something to do with the weakening of Secular forces in India (that always had a strong Marxist element) - they need a new inspiration instead of messing around with soft Hindutva - rationalism maybe it ? At least no one can say it came from outside the country since it is an Indian Philosophy going back to the ancient world with the Carvakas !!

Another indian site http://www.rationalistinternational.net

I would like to point out that this is one ``Farzana thread`` which seems to have turned way from the ``spit in each other`s face`` trend to a better ``why are we spitting in each other`s face`` kind of thread.

Thanks Farzana!!

By the way, unconnected fact and I am not going to be able to reconfirm this because it is based on inputs from a source that has asked to be not quoted or hinted upon . . . but only about 12% of Muslims in India claim to speak and/or write Urdu. 88% would mention another language as their ``mother tongue``.

On my own perception, I think more of these 88% would prefer to learn and speak and read and write in English.

Roohi, I have not heard about ``Guru Busters`` but there is a leftist/marxist/atheist group in Punjab and Haryana called ``Rarksheel Society``[Rational society``]. They even have a web site. they usually challenge bhoot/taweez/spiritual healing etc. They started busting gurus, babas and sants in Punjab about 25 years ago..unfortunately for every one baba they bust 5 spring up.

here is their web site Tarksheel Society

Ref FartsAnna #86

[I guess now it is possible for me to say nice things about my Hindu driver.]

Are you sure he is not giving your address to the next mob of crazed Hindus who are only waiting for an ``excuse``, any ``excuse`` to go on a murderous rampage and who need to have a list of addresses of Muslims? Oops, I forgot that the ``excuse`` has already arrived in the form of a bomb explosion on the suburban train. I notice that two days have passed and not one of you Islamist thugs have condemned it, Since you are a feminist, how about condemning it from the perspective that it is cowardly to attack women? Or, are kaffir women the same as kaffir men, fit only to be killed?

[I suppose it is okay now for me to be a part of Chowk, because the Hindu voice taking on Hindu rituals has been given an airing, so I am not the only one looking for Pakistani votes, right?]

If you read my article carefully, I practically called them non-Hindu rituals. Do I have to give you lessons in English Comprehension?

[And I have not even said it feels good to be a Muslim.]

Once you get the hate out of your heart, you might start feeling good.

[My quote (#52): “If he wants to express his personal beliefs, he can tell that to his friends. He is speaking publicly as the PM and RESPONDING TO ACCUSATIONS in that capacity.”]

Vajpayee was not accused of eating beef in a private tea party. It was a public comment by a Congress leader. So he responded publicly.

By the same token, when people accuse you of being sexually frustrated on the Chowk, why do you respond here? Why don`t you pour out your anger to your friends in private?

A public figure HAS to respond publicly. But you managed to make Vajpayee`s statement sound like he was using code words to point to Muslims as cow-killers.

[And I get my quotes from newspapers too, since I am a citizen of India and do not have a schizophrenic national identity.]

Well, I don`t think I have accused of being a Pakistani at heart.

[And yes, stated elsewhere is this truly wonderful sentiment: “The simplicity of Islam was appealing to me.” I suppose now there will not be insinuations about the Prophet’s sex life, and camels and sodomy.]

So long as there are no references to the penis god.

[And now that people know a bit more about dates, it would help if they realised that most Muslims do not survive on that.]

The tray of dates did not have any information as to how dates are grown.

On the other hand, during a trip some 8 years ago to Palm Springs, CA, where 98% of the dates grown in the US are produced, I found out that:

date trees produce exclusively male or female flowers and so they are called the Adam and Eve trees in the Middle East;

the pollination of the female flowers through birds, bees, etc., is not guaranteed and so farm workers actually dust the pollen on the female flowers by hand;

even then there are only a few days in the month when the pollen is accepted and the female flower is fertilized, causing the fruit to grow.

No, there was no information as to whether female date trees have PMS.

Did anyone see the British documentary ``Guru Busters`` about the Indian Rationalist Association and their expose of Sai Baba ? The Discovery Channel did something on them a couple of years ago as well on Science Mysteries ``Physical Feats`` in the US. These guys sound like equal opportunity skeptics since their latest target is Mother Teresa`s ``Miracle`` healing of Monica Besra on the basis of which the Vatican is planning on conferring Sainthood on her. Are they marxist or something or just garden variety science inspired atheists ?

#97 by amit on March 15, 2003 3:42pm PT

That was good Amit. Hahahaha. Like the much sought after Pakistani guys are fair and handsome(so they think), I am sure Paki women are also very... you know... mazedaar as the paki guys.

Correction: #95

Relevant post # 76

m_souza (#77):

Farzana, I appreciate what you wrote. It is vital for Indians to be civil to each other.
Well, we also want to interact in a decent manner but like you, we all (Hindu, Muslim or otherwise) have some kind of bitterness in our hearts regarding these issues. Probably, we are sick of it all. And some of the Indians have carried this bitterness for generations, with the kind of history our country had, the foreign attacks and rules, the (imagined or real) forced conversions etc…the temple destructions etc.

I mean a normal Indian doesn’t care whether we had a temple or a mosque there. We just want to live peacefully. Our poor and needy should have their bread and butter. Besides our kids should be given more and more education. As Dr Kalam says, it should be our dream to see India as a developed nation by 2010 (or is it 2020….whatever).

OkOk…those of us living in foreign lands, do not live in our country like all of you, but we do visit it every year. Staying away from our country has actually made us more aware of the futility of these religious issues. We realize that we have to put an end to the fanaticism of any kind. We see how other progressive nations have developed themselves by sheer grit and determination and we are still tangled in these never ending differences and acrimony.

Yes Farzana, you are right …we can’t ignore these fanatics. We have to deal with them. I deal with these issues in my own way. By making friends with as many non-Hindus (including Muslims) as possible, by not clinging to only Hindus even now when I am overseas. If we at personal level can maintain an unbiased mind towards all fellow Indians, that will serve.
And financially also, we who live overseas try to aid our country as much as we can. But this help should not be focused only towards our own religion as it is normally is. So, that attitude has to be changed.

I can also empathise that the recent riots have had impact on your mind. I had ancestors from pre-partition Pakistan (then India) and they went through the horror of partition while migrating to India so I do know how it affects the minds of those who go through it. Such atrocious were those sins and crimes that they haunt the generations to come. But it is no good to remember all the time, one has to move on.

I used the word ‘baybeh’ from one of your previous poems. Part of the game, no real ill will intended. ..part of the game…

RE:52
`` I have mentioned majority community not because I wanted to skirt the
issue; everyone knows who the majority is and I have not shied away
from using the term Hindu several times. If people need an interesting
spin, they should find it within themselves. ``


Thank you for your explanation with respect to my post #17 (
http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001996&channel=civic&start=60&end=69&page=7&chapter=1#17
)

I donot think that one can argue a case for a particular system of
governance (secularist in this case, equal rights for all citizens
irrespective of their beliefs etc.) while using the reference system of
the forces staunchly opposed to such type of system (i.e. Shive Sena:
Hindu/non-Hindu, OBL: Muslim/Non-muslim). As i said earlier, those
refernce points are dichotomies based on religous divides - dumb
categorizations lumping people on the basis of their beliefs.

It is clear after your post #52 that you had no second thoughts about this
gross contradiction in your writeup which only served to make this piece a complete farce.

Thanks.

Relevant post:#77

Farzana,
The communal virus in India has certainly spread over the past few years. It is due to a combination of two factors. The first factor is the hindutva politics of raking up the temple issue 6 months before every election to create communal frenzy. These people are playing with fire and they don`t realize the damage it is causing to the country.
The second factor is the jihadi militancy from Pakistan which was very intense a couple of years back but is receding now. Each high profile terror incident such as Indian Airlines hijacking, parliament attack etc., ended up radicalizing large sections of hindus. The combination of these two factors is creating a potentially explosive situation in India.
The positive trend to offset all of this negativity is that the Indian economy is doing relatively well as compared to the past. As a result, there is a lot of churn going on in the society. People are moving all over the place, interacting with others and old barriers are coming down. A few years back, an intercaste or inter-regional marriage would be an exception with a lot of eyebrows raised. Today it is becoming common, especially in the urban circles. A strong sense of national identity is taking root and the national mosaic is slowly transforming to a US style melting pot. Muslims are facing the very same pressures to enter this melting pot, as is every ethnic and regional group. This can be a disturbing process because one feels that one is losing one`s identity, although the extent of that can be exaggerated. I am sure the Tamilian father whose daughter marries a Punjabi feels concerned that his grandchildren will lose their Tamilian heritage. The same fears enters the mind of muslims as well. The upside is that India is becoming a powerful nation, which is good for all of us. We are all facing similar forces and are adapting to it. We may have to trade-off some of our ``ethnic`` or ``religious`` identities in the process, but it may be well worth it.

Re:hrrehman
Let`s have a trade here. You can take all the Indian girls, just send us some of those really hot Pakistani women....

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hrrehman,

{{We are 10% of the size of India in population.
Start comparing yourself w/China and then you will realize how far behind you Hindus really are.}}

Yeah, but ``you Pakis`` (ie your national voice--the military) THINKS you are better than India.

Its bad ENOUGH:

1) That the Pak military has NEVER WON a war in her ``glorious`` history
2)That the only entity in the world that is scared SH*TLESS of your fearless military is your own civilian population.
3) That your country, thanks to your glorious military, is now the HUB of international terrorism, opium & AK-47s
4) That, thanks to your military, your country has now been gauged on how LOW it will bend, depending on which carrot & stick is applied by big daddy....

DESPITE that; your military thinks that it can take on India anytime, anywhere,--- & everytime your headhoncho opens his trap about the military--its about how gloriously it has upheld its national HONOR by standing tall to India.

Tell your military to sit down & shut up...those bandars have gotten their ass beaten everytime they`ve sparred with India---but are so PROUD that they cloak themselves with sanctimonious ``EXCUSES``--well India is 10 times bigger--so unless & until their ``kill`` ratio is 10 times more than ours, its a victory for Pakistan!!

Heheh...What does the Land of the PURE stand for?!--pure IDIOCY?!!!!
Let me be moooore brutally honest---Pakistanis (OK OK SOME Pakistanis;--otherwise Rev. Tahmed will give me a lecture) are handsomer, stronger & sexier than us heeng smelling indoos---but in the BRAINS dept, we thrash your macho butts. Besides, we are WORLD CHAMPIONS in cutting Pakistan down to size, when it thinks its too big for her britches...

Kinda like what happened at the World Cup..NOTHING, but NOTHING gives us Indians (even minorities) PURE joy than beating your pompous butts & shutting your TRAP! That tiny Sachin taught your invincible Rawalpindi Express the meaning of RESPECT. These Pakistani mashoor pehelwans (like your military) act like they are too big for their britches. Then when they get their BUTTS WHUPPED, they`ll keep quiet for some time & then say---aw what the heck, India is 10 times our size; so in COMPARISON we are better than India---yup, always...no question about that:)

In contrast , we poor humble Indians have acknowledged that China is ahead, & that it whupped our butts in 62.
THATS WHY WE DONT F*CK WITH THEM!!!
We talk to each other like intelligent adults & resolve each issue on the negotiating table.
Do we give ``training camps`` to Tibetan militants? Do we interfere in the politics of ``disputed`` Chinese territory?? We DONT rattle our swords towards China.

We know where EXACTLY where we stand with them.

Do you think arjun_m & saxena will go to a Chinese website & give them Chinks an..er..``attitude``?!---NOT!!

But Pukistan?! Damn...you little chicken sh*t 10% of a country INSIST on taking on a bigger country & acting like youre too big for your britches! Then when you get your butts whipped you go to Amrika & Muslim brothers wailing for aid---saala BHIKARI!. Never mind if your ``friends`` ask you to bend over & give them a BJ for the aid--youre toooo willing to do ANYTHING to save your HONOR in front of the horrible indoos!

BTW, Pakistani military=Pakistan=you..Just what part of THAT would you want to deny? Its your military that represents the face of Pakistan & PaKISTANIS in the world stage & controls every facet of an average Pakistani`s life. Sheesh..I wont be surprised if you military tells you how to take a DUMP---!!!

Lemme also tell you, if you want to engage in an Indo-Pak spitting contest; we Indians have 10 times more cyberspit than you handsome creatures:))

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Frazana: Some parts of your article I agree with, some disagree. I share in particular your concern the demonification of muslims (by representing extremist maulvis as muslim leaders when in fact they fail in elections from places with large muslim constituencies), having experienced first hand this demonification of Pakistanis by so many Indian posters on chowk. Demonification of a community has historically been the psychological first step that makes it possible to attack and kill individuals from that community, and indeed has been used explicitly for this purpose during war.
The destruction of Babri masjid, and the vilification of Indian muslims for applauding for the Pakistani cricket team (another thing I have seen often enough on chowk), while again part of the same rise of hindu chauvinism in India, is actually something childish. God does not need mosques, and a good muslim`s love for God is in his heart and not in bricks and stones. And cricket is just a game, and to the mixing of politics with a game is the true sign of a moron. I hope someday Indians (muslim and hindu) will grow up and stop messing with cricket by dragging it into politics.
If I were an Indian muslim, I would not go around flaunting my 163 million strong population, however. What are you going to do anyway with these numbers?? Destroy one of their temples, so they come back and destroy two of your mosques? Or take a mob and attack some innocent hindu families, the same way hindu extremists took a mob and attacked innocent muslim families.
I sense a lot of bitterness in you. Remember that bitterness never hurt anyone except yourself. Laugh off the idiots who want to destroy mosques. Forgive those who attack muslims, not as a favor to them but as a favor to yourself. You will clear your mind to do the three best things you can for muslims in India - education, education and education.
Once India reaches a certain stage of development, these hindu-muslim hatreds will become as much a part of history as the religious hatreds in Europe in the middle ages.
Long post, but I needed to write it. I feel better already, and hope you will reflect a bit on what I wrote. :-)

re#39

hamidm2 -- is ur mothr-in-law from Lucknow?

I have already put ALL BLAMES -- for Most of the Misfortunes of the Muslim World -- -- squarely on the shoulders of the United States – EVERYWHERE in the world -- so I don`t have to participate in this OLD DESI pastime of debasing Mandir/Masjid Acrimony.

ahle watan kaa mushghala muzhub pe maar peet
achchaa hua hum aagai ahl-e watan se dooor

but no peace here either -- NOW I have to deal with a ‘different’ URGENT Acrimony

We the Muslims are NEVER at fault – it’s all the fault of the United States!

Veeresh (#68):
I am not sure any clarification here is likely to help those who are using your posts to get back at me. However, let me try and answer some more of your queries.
- Kashmir/Ayodhya: The comparison was never meant to be literal. A “plaything”…will be on the backburner until kingdom come. Possibility of Pandit vote banks? The Ayodhya effect will not translate into Muslim vote banks in most of India.
- I do not believe the Muslims are a homogenous unit, as my post to stuka stated. Of course money plays a role. Booth capturing does. But there has to be a political agenda, and usually it relies on ‘vote bank’ politics.
- I would never raise an objection to the flying of the national flag. Why don’t you see the context? I emphasise again that those Muslims were doing it only to come out clean. It was not a spontaneous upsurge of feeling. Trust me on this. (And I can share this with you…many members of my family do go for the flag hoisting held at the local park, and a paper tricolour is fitted in their cars, all year long. And it was I who had objected to Rahman’s pop version of ‘Vande Mataram’.) Regarding your worry about the chattering class of Muslims, I am concerned on another count: they are trying to overtake the secular movement. We both know that the common Muslim does not give a damn, which is why I am wary of the liberal intelligentsia. I find them more dangerous than the mullahs.

As for the Armed Forces, I would be happy to see many more Muslims joining it. I just did not want you to equate it with the symbolism of some people being forced, due to their insecurity, to use the national flag.

- Re. Sai Baba…that is precisely the point; his tricks were in the papers, therefore it was surprising that I was asked to go slow. Don’t you see it? As a Muslim I have to think at least twice before I comment on people/issues that are of national interest and the nation happens to be a Hindu-majority. About the general good he has done, I think there are many Muslim communities which have done so too. The Aga Khanis, the Bohras, the Memons. And not everyone belonging to them is rich. I do believe that the Baba’s organisation needs to be examined closely for a lot of things. I have already stated that the Imam ought to be arrested on grounds of misuse of the Jama Masjid premises.
- Multi-religious symbols are fine if they are done as a part of one’s ‘normal’ thinking. I had once mentioned here
about the Nataraj statue we had at home and which held great sentimental value. The reaction? “Oh, it is just a pretty
showpiece for you.”
- You are right, nobody can go into a mosque, that is the prayer area, but do not compare it with an ‘ashram’. I can say
anyone can enter a dargah. It is a fact that women and outsiders cannot enter the mosque, and there has been no
confusion on that; there are some temples where women and non-Hindus cannot enter. Non-Parsis cannot enter the
Fire Temple. If we go into the customs of all religions, then women are certainly not given equal status. It is
ridiculous to assume that I would condone that. Perhaps having been born and brought up in an Aga Khani
household and not having to suffer this discrimination (men and women sit in the same prayer hall), I have taken
some things for granted.
- Indo-Pak match: You say, “the Muslim upper class in India want to deny their followers the option of feeling
good?” Oh, those sms messages came from upper class people; the Raza Academy is not run by the poor Muslims.
These are the new jehadists, promoting a pseudo-secular agenda not because they truly believe in it but they want
to hold the reins of power. I had met one young brat from this pack at the Princess Street police chowkie (both our
cars had been towed away! Mine wrongfully, as they later discovered) and you should have seen the way he
spoke to the cops, “Aap jaante hai main kaun hoon?” (He was some upstart’s son) And then when he saw me write
my name on the chit, he said he had gone for namaaz and his car was taken away. I told him he had no business to
park where he did. But these people will do anything. Muslim corporators may put up banners wishing their
constituencies on all festivals, but most of us know who they are hand-in-glove with. Which is why I had asked in
my article that funding of liberal/secular organisations need to be examined too.
- “Farzana, I got a good bet waiting to be taken with you that this one will come from the Muslim women in India
who are NOT from the lah-di-dah chi-chi class.”
There is no bet here, for I want it as much as you do. I have no faith in the chi-chi class, even though I like my canapés and several other things. And when it does happen, the treat is on me. Btw, I don’t eat beef, never have.

Re. Urstuly, he may not make for a great dinner companion but he does have an ‘excellent’ taste in wine :)

Regards (and plz, if you still have an argument, we can talk it over elsewhere),
Farzana

Thank you and some others for the civilised tone of the discourse.

#54 by harish_hyd on March 14, 2003 0:27am PT
#49 by hrrehman on March 13, 2003 11:18pm PT

Are you saying that Paki girls are so shitty that your guys have to look for Indian girls to go out with?

We don`t have to look for Indian girls my friend, they come knocking
on our doors. Being a good Paki and a decent man I have to oblige,
after all what are neighbors for.

#66 by arjun_m on March 14, 2003 7:06am PT

Getting into American universities

Arjun I hope you are not as stupid as you seem, please stop comparing
yourself w/Pakistan. We are 10% of the size of India in population.
Start comparing yourself w/China and then you will realize how far behind you Hindus really are.

I guess now it is possible for me to say nice things about my Hindu driver. He thinks the SS is ok, but the “marathis” are badmaashes and so on… Now no one can hold me for using this petty example, right? No one can say that I am just quoting someone, a lone individual and what proof do I have, and heck he does not represent the general thinking. I suppose it is okay now for me to be a part of Chowk, because the Hindu voice taking on Hindu rituals has been given an airing, so I am not the only one looking for Pakistani votes, right? And I have not even said it feels good to be a Muslim.

[This is FartsAnna`s usual trick of quoting partially or without specifying the context. Vajpayee was publicly accused by some Congresswallah as one who eats beef and his spokesman replied that Vajpayee would die before eating beef. So this was NOT an instance of Vajpayee dredging up cow slaughter to get at Muslims. But that is not the way our wise friend
sees it. And our resident Mullahs lap it up and praise FartsAnna as the Conscience of India.]

My quote (#52): “If he wants to express his personal beliefs, he can tell that to his friends. He is speaking publicly as the PM and RESPONDING TO ACCUSATIONS in that capacity.”

And I get my quotes from newspapers too, since I am a citizen of India and do not have a schizophrenic national identity.

And yes, stated elsewhere is this truly wonderful sentiment: “The simplicity of Islam was appealing to me.” I suppose now there will not be insinuations about the Prophet’s sex life, and camels and sodomy. And now that people know a bit more about dates, it would help if they realised that most Muslims do not survive on that.

Various others…
I did not bite the ‘frustration’ bait; I have usually ignored it. But realised that this was going on for too long. Male writers who think and express themselves in a similar manner are not given this special treatment…Khushwant Singh, Kuldip Nayyar, Dilip D”Souza, Praful Bidwai….

Re. My mention of the kumbh as a testosterone-driven madness, the article was about religion and sex, plain and simple…and there were references to the Haj and Christian rituals as well.

I do not ask Hindus who they should choose as their leaders; I merely point out when there are bad leaders, and they include Farooq Abdulla, Ghulam Nabi Azad, Salman Khurshid as well.

[...it must be burning up the author to see mohammad kaif take india to victory today...i wonder how he would feel knowing that there are people like her spreading poison in the country and asking muslims to cheer for opponents...]

My quote from the article: “For the first time in my life I wanted Pakistan to win that cricket match against India because I would have liked to see all THOSE SILLY MUSLIMS go blue in the face… Because these chicken shits wanted to prove their patriotism. They wanted to tell the Hindu brothers and sisters (not the Dalits, Parsis, Christians, mind you) that they were Indian.”

It makes me wonder if posting an article on Chowk can spread “poison” and a quote such as this constitutes asking Muslims to cheer for opponents. As I stated elsewhere, on the eve of the World Cup I wrote a pep-up piece on Saurav. And this was before we had reached this stage. I will stand by my country even when it is down, boy; I do not come only to applaud when we are on a winning spree.

m_souza (#77):
If only you had adopted this tone right in the beginning we co