Excavating India

Don`t know about Jama Masjid itself but Old Delhi is not so bad ... it`s just one big blot of traffic and pollution - but I have fond memories of places near Chandini Chowk, Paranthe Wali Gali, Meena Bazar(outside Jama Masjid), Nai Sadak (not so nai any more) - who knows what they look like now. They were talking of moving the wholesale markets out of Chandini Chowk and starting some preservation efforts 10 years ago - anything ever happen ?

Reply Farzana

The best apples are from Himachal Pradesh, your very favourite Golden Delicious. Will restrain myself from drawing heavy handed political parallels.

I thought anybody could go to a mosque...I`ve seen jheepdi madams phiroing in the Heart Of Darkness, aka Delhi`s Jama Masjid...

Dullabhatti -

Thanks - great site and it`s wonderful that they publish in Punjabi !! The person they quote at the top of their homepage Dr Abraham Kovoor was a famous Indian Rationalist (he lived in Sri Lanka also) and he really was the founding father of rationalism in India. Here is an article on him

http://www.uni-giessen.de/~gk1415/kovoor.htm

The last thing a country like India needs is official promotion of phoney Godmen and theories. I can`t figure out why with the big increase in logic based IT jobs in India superstition seem to be gaining as well. One of my Aunts (Mum`s cousin) was a Sai Baba devotee - her daughter named her kid ``Vibhooti`` ! She died of cancer believing Baba was going to cure her. I can`t tell you how much I can`t stand that creep.

I think the collapse of the Soviets in the 80`s had something to do with the weakening of Secular forces in India (that always had a strong Marxist element) - they need a new inspiration instead of messing around with soft Hindutva - rationalism maybe it ? At least no one can say it came from outside the country since it is an Indian Philosophy going back to the ancient world with the Carvakas !!

Another indian site http://www.rationalistinternational.net

I would like to point out that this is one ``Farzana thread`` which seems to have turned way from the ``spit in each other`s face`` trend to a better ``why are we spitting in each other`s face`` kind of thread.

Thanks Farzana!!

By the way, unconnected fact and I am not going to be able to reconfirm this because it is based on inputs from a source that has asked to be not quoted or hinted upon . . . but only about 12% of Muslims in India claim to speak and/or write Urdu. 88% would mention another language as their ``mother tongue``.

On my own perception, I think more of these 88% would prefer to learn and speak and read and write in English.

Roohi, I have not heard about ``Guru Busters`` but there is a leftist/marxist/atheist group in Punjab and Haryana called ``Rarksheel Society``[Rational society``]. They even have a web site. they usually challenge bhoot/taweez/spiritual healing etc. They started busting gurus, babas and sants in Punjab about 25 years ago..unfortunately for every one baba they bust 5 spring up.

here is their web site Tarksheel Society

Ref FartsAnna #86

[I guess now it is possible for me to say nice things about my Hindu driver.]

Are you sure he is not giving your address to the next mob of crazed Hindus who are only waiting for an ``excuse``, any ``excuse`` to go on a murderous rampage and who need to have a list of addresses of Muslims? Oops, I forgot that the ``excuse`` has already arrived in the form of a bomb explosion on the suburban train. I notice that two days have passed and not one of you Islamist thugs have condemned it, Since you are a feminist, how about condemning it from the perspective that it is cowardly to attack women? Or, are kaffir women the same as kaffir men, fit only to be killed?

[I suppose it is okay now for me to be a part of Chowk, because the Hindu voice taking on Hindu rituals has been given an airing, so I am not the only one looking for Pakistani votes, right?]

If you read my article carefully, I practically called them non-Hindu rituals. Do I have to give you lessons in English Comprehension?

[And I have not even said it feels good to be a Muslim.]

Once you get the hate out of your heart, you might start feeling good.

[My quote (#52): “If he wants to express his personal beliefs, he can tell that to his friends. He is speaking publicly as the PM and RESPONDING TO ACCUSATIONS in that capacity.”]

Vajpayee was not accused of eating beef in a private tea party. It was a public comment by a Congress leader. So he responded publicly.

By the same token, when people accuse you of being sexually frustrated on the Chowk, why do you respond here? Why don`t you pour out your anger to your friends in private?

A public figure HAS to respond publicly. But you managed to make Vajpayee`s statement sound like he was using code words to point to Muslims as cow-killers.

[And I get my quotes from newspapers too, since I am a citizen of India and do not have a schizophrenic national identity.]

Well, I don`t think I have accused of being a Pakistani at heart.

[And yes, stated elsewhere is this truly wonderful sentiment: “The simplicity of Islam was appealing to me.” I suppose now there will not be insinuations about the Prophet’s sex life, and camels and sodomy.]

So long as there are no references to the penis god.

[And now that people know a bit more about dates, it would help if they realised that most Muslims do not survive on that.]

The tray of dates did not have any information as to how dates are grown.

On the other hand, during a trip some 8 years ago to Palm Springs, CA, where 98% of the dates grown in the US are produced, I found out that:

date trees produce exclusively male or female flowers and so they are called the Adam and Eve trees in the Middle East;

the pollination of the female flowers through birds, bees, etc., is not guaranteed and so farm workers actually dust the pollen on the female flowers by hand;

even then there are only a few days in the month when the pollen is accepted and the female flower is fertilized, causing the fruit to grow.

No, there was no information as to whether female date trees have PMS.

Did anyone see the British documentary ``Guru Busters`` about the Indian Rationalist Association and their expose of Sai Baba ? The Discovery Channel did something on them a couple of years ago as well on Science Mysteries ``Physical Feats`` in the US. These guys sound like equal opportunity skeptics since their latest target is Mother Teresa`s ``Miracle`` healing of Monica Besra on the basis of which the Vatican is planning on conferring Sainthood on her. Are they marxist or something or just garden variety science inspired atheists ?

#97 by amit on March 15, 2003 3:42pm PT

That was good Amit. Hahahaha. Like the much sought after Pakistani guys are fair and handsome(so they think), I am sure Paki women are also very... you know... mazedaar as the paki guys.

Correction: #95

Relevant post # 76

m_souza (#77):

Farzana, I appreciate what you wrote. It is vital for Indians to be civil to each other.
Well, we also want to interact in a decent manner but like you, we all (Hindu, Muslim or otherwise) have some kind of bitterness in our hearts regarding these issues. Probably, we are sick of it all. And some of the Indians have carried this bitterness for generations, with the kind of history our country had, the foreign attacks and rules, the (imagined or real) forced conversions etc…the temple destructions etc.

I mean a normal Indian doesn’t care whether we had a temple or a mosque there. We just want to live peacefully. Our poor and needy should have their bread and butter. Besides our kids should be given more and more education. As Dr Kalam says, it should be our dream to see India as a developed nation by 2010 (or is it 2020….whatever).

OkOk…those of us living in foreign lands, do not live in our country like all of you, but we do visit it every year. Staying away from our country has actually made us more aware of the futility of these religious issues. We realize that we have to put an end to the fanaticism of any kind. We see how other progressive nations have developed themselves by sheer grit and determination and we are still tangled in these never ending differences and acrimony.

Yes Farzana, you are right …we can’t ignore these fanatics. We have to deal with them. I deal with these issues in my own way. By making friends with as many non-Hindus (including Muslims) as possible, by not clinging to only Hindus even now when I am overseas. If we at personal level can maintain an unbiased mind towards all fellow Indians, that will serve.
And financially also, we who live overseas try to aid our country as much as we can. But this help should not be focused only towards our own religion as it is normally is. So, that attitude has to be changed.

I can also empathise that the recent riots have had impact on your mind. I had ancestors from pre-partition Pakistan (then India) and they went through the horror of partition while migrating to India so I do know how it affects the minds of those who go through it. Such atrocious were those sins and crimes that they haunt the generations to come. But it is no good to remember all the time, one has to move on.

I used the word ‘baybeh’ from one of your previous poems. Part of the game, no real ill will intended. ..part of the game…

RE:52
`` I have mentioned majority community not because I wanted to skirt the
issue; everyone knows who the majority is and I have not shied away
from using the term Hindu several times. If people need an interesting
spin, they should find it within themselves. ``


Thank you for your explanation with respect to my post #17 (
http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001996&channel=civic&start=60&end=69&page=7&chapter=1#17
)

I donot think that one can argue a case for a particular system of
governance (secularist in this case, equal rights for all citizens
irrespective of their beliefs etc.) while using the reference system of
the forces staunchly opposed to such type of system (i.e. Shive Sena:
Hindu/non-Hindu, OBL: Muslim/Non-muslim). As i said earlier, those
refernce points are dichotomies based on religous divides - dumb
categorizations lumping people on the basis of their beliefs.

It is clear after your post #52 that you had no second thoughts about this
gross contradiction in your writeup which only served to make this piece a complete farce.

Thanks.

Relevant post:#77

Farzana,
The communal virus in India has certainly spread over the past few years. It is due to a combination of two factors. The first factor is the hindutva politics of raking up the temple issue 6 months before every election to create communal frenzy. These people are playing with fire and they don`t realize the damage it is causing to the country.
The second factor is the jihadi militancy from Pakistan which was very intense a couple of years back but is receding now. Each high profile terror incident such as Indian Airlines hijacking, parliament attack etc., ended up radicalizing large sections of hindus. The combination of these two factors is creating a potentially explosive situation in India.
The positive trend to offset all of this negativity is that the Indian economy is doing relatively well as compared to the past. As a result, there is a lot of churn going on in the society. People are moving all over the place, interacting with others and old barriers are coming down. A few years back, an intercaste or inter-regional marriage would be an exception with a lot of eyebrows raised. Today it is becoming common, especially in the urban circles. A strong sense of national identity is taking root and the national mosaic is slowly transforming to a US style melting pot. Muslims are facing the very same pressures to enter this melting pot, as is every ethnic and regional group. This can be a disturbing process because one feels that one is losing one`s identity, although the extent of that can be exaggerated. I am sure the Tamilian father whose daughter marries a Punjabi feels concerned that his grandchildren will lose their Tamilian heritage. The same fears enters the mind of muslims as well. The upside is that India is becoming a powerful nation, which is good for all of us. We are all facing similar forces and are adapting to it. We may have to trade-off some of our ``ethnic`` or ``religious`` identities in the process, but it may be well worth it.

Re:hrrehman
Let`s have a trade here. You can take all the Indian girls, just send us some of those really hot Pakistani women....

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hrrehman,

{{We are 10% of the size of India in population.
Start comparing yourself w/China and then you will realize how far behind you Hindus really are.}}

Yeah, but ``you Pakis`` (ie your national voice--the military) THINKS you are better than India.

Its bad ENOUGH:

1) That the Pak military has NEVER WON a war in her ``glorious`` history
2)That the only entity in the world that is scared SH*TLESS of your fearless military is your own civilian population.
3) That your country, thanks to your glorious military, is now the HUB of international terrorism, opium & AK-47s
4) That, thanks to your military, your country has now been gauged on how LOW it will bend, depending on which carrot & stick is applied by big daddy....

DESPITE that; your military thinks that it can take on India anytime, anywhere,--- & everytime your headhoncho opens his trap about the military--its about how gloriously it has upheld its national HONOR by standing tall to India.

Tell your military to sit down & shut up...those bandars have gotten their ass beaten everytime they`ve sparred with India---but are so PROUD that they cloak themselves with sanctimonious ``EXCUSES``--well India is 10 times bigger--so unless & until their ``kill`` ratio is 10 times more than ours, its a victory for Pakistan!!

Heheh...What does the Land of the PURE stand for?!--pure IDIOCY?!!!!
Let me be moooore brutally honest---Pakistanis (OK OK SOME Pakistanis;--otherwise Rev. Tahmed will give me a lecture) are handsomer, stronger & sexier than us heeng smelling indoos---but in the BRAINS dept, we thrash your macho butts. Besides, we are WORLD CHAMPIONS in cutting Pakistan down to size, when it thinks its too big for her britches...

Kinda like what happened at the World Cup..NOTHING, but NOTHING gives us Indians (even minorities) PURE joy than beating your pompous butts & shutting your TRAP! That tiny Sachin taught your invincible Rawalpindi Express the meaning of RESPECT. These Pakistani mashoor pehelwans (like your military) act like they are too big for their britches. Then when they get their BUTTS WHUPPED, they`ll keep quiet for some time & then say---aw what the heck, India is 10 times our size; so in COMPARISON we are better than India---yup, always...no question about that:)

In contrast , we poor humble Indians have acknowledged that China is ahead, & that it whupped our butts in 62.
THATS WHY WE DONT F*CK WITH THEM!!!
We talk to each other like intelligent adults & resolve each issue on the negotiating table.
Do we give ``training camps`` to Tibetan militants? Do we interfere in the politics of ``disputed`` Chinese territory?? We DONT rattle our swords towards China.

We know where EXACTLY where we stand with them.

Do you think arjun_m & saxena will go to a Chinese website & give them Chinks an..er..``attitude``?!---NOT!!

But Pukistan?! Damn...you little chicken sh*t 10% of a country INSIST on taking on a bigger country & acting like youre too big for your britches! Then when you get your butts whipped you go to Amrika & Muslim brothers wailing for aid---saala BHIKARI!. Never mind if your ``friends`` ask you to bend over & give them a BJ for the aid--youre toooo willing to do ANYTHING to save your HONOR in front of the horrible indoos!

BTW, Pakistani military=Pakistan=you..Just what part of THAT would you want to deny? Its your military that represents the face of Pakistan & PaKISTANIS in the world stage & controls every facet of an average Pakistani`s life. Sheesh..I wont be surprised if you military tells you how to take a DUMP---!!!

Lemme also tell you, if you want to engage in an Indo-Pak spitting contest; we Indians have 10 times more cyberspit than you handsome creatures:))