Excavating India

I do reflect. Always. And since this thread will be out soon, unlike entrenched beliefs, I want to thank nazarhayatkhan, dialogue, ras, soysauce, tahmed (bitterness is relative), amit, samina, scout (the charge of the enlightened femme brigade).

m_souza(#100)
[OkOk…those of us living in foreign lands, do not live in our country like all of you, but we do visit it every year. Staying away from our country has actually made us more aware of the futility of these religious issues. We realize that we have to put an end to the fanaticism of any kind]

Please take a look around here: Not many NRIs seem to be seeing the futility of these issues; in fact they are adding fuel to the fire. See who they felicitate abroad. And during this huge jamboree for the pampered lot in Delhi, do you know that there was an art exhibition where all the Mughal miniatures had been removed? But…it is a ‘part of the game’ too:)

Zafar (#106):
[I thought anybody could go to a mosque...I`ve seen jheepdi madams phiroing in the Heart Of Darkness, aka Delhi`s Jama Masjid...]

What is jheepdi? But I thought women could phirao until the prayers began, but am going by the general trend. Plan to visit Delhi soon and this time I will check it out.

Agree about Golden Delicious. Sounds like a yummy cocktail, too.

(#104):
I have to apologise for a bomb blast in a Mulund train? By not condemning it, it is assumed I wanted it to happen? And now the feminist argument is thrown…some people can never stop. And my driver does not have to give my address to anyone; the Hindutva parties already have it and they send me all the literature and expensive books to let me know the ‘truth’.

[(I suppose it is okay now for me to be a part of Chowk, because the Hindu voice taking on Hindu rituals has been given an airing, so I am not the only one looking for Pakistani votes, right?)
If you read my article carefully, I practically called them non-Hindu rituals.]

Sure you did. Like Sunnis saying Shia rituals are not valid, and Wahabis saying something else, and, why, many Muslims raising their voices against certain customs, including my humble contribution where I talked against animal sacrifice some years ago. (Oh, I have fed bananas to an elephant at the Tiruchendur temple and he did not get sick.)

And I do not have “hate” in my heart; I have anger, disappointment, and some disgust.

[A public figure HAS to respond publicly. But you managed to make Vajpayee`s statement sound like he was using code words to point to Muslims as cow-killers.]

Only you can see such depth. What is the code word, anyway?

[(I suppose now there will not be insinuations about the Prophet’s sex life, and camels and sodomy.)
So long as there are no references to the penis god.]

If a god is recognised and worshipped as a ‘lingam’, then there will be such references; as for negative comments, most come from your friends here, like Shankar.

Thanks for your information on date trees. I am not really keen on knowing about the PMS of the female trees, but it would have helped if you could provide information on the premature menopause of the male trees. Of course, since this was 8 years ago, your memory may have dimmed a bit. So do not stretch your mind too much. I shall understand.

(#93):
[I just got Farzana figured out..Her problem is that she is a spolit malabar hill latte sipping liberal....]

Not a problem, it is sheer pleasure. But you need to make a few changes in location and beverage and the word liberal…like I prefer tea and while Earl Grey is indeed the lady’s choice, she does fancy a prime Assam orange pekoe, and Chinese tea does well too. At home, of course, it has to be chai with adrak, pudina, the works, making it look as dehati as possible. Of course, being spoilt one is doing it only to experience the ‘other’ side. Like, what the heck is ‘latte’? You mean doodh walla coffee? Huh, we have it with ilaichi. But nothing to beat the roasted flavour of kapi at an Udupi joint. However, a certain Mr. Iyer (after the green signal from his driver) might just take me for a hazelnut-flavoured cappuccino at the Movenpik outlet in the Muslim-dominated Khader Nawaz Road in Chennai:)

So, now you have it all figured out…and it is not ‘liberal’ for me, but liberated.

Farzana #52:
I wish I had read your article a lot earlier.

``If he wants to express his personal beliefs, he can tell that to his friends. He is speaking publicly as the PM and responding to accusations in that capacity.``
Sure, not eating beef could be Vajpayee`s personal belief. But he didn`t start the whole thing. Remember, it was the `secular` Congress in Madhya Pradesh who came out with the slogan that Vajpayee eats beef. That was when he was forced to retort publicly, as the MP election was around the corner, and the Congress was making the `cow` an election issue.

With reference to the Babri Masjid issue, I think this is a very difficult issue - I dont really see the courts solving the issue. When the Masjid was demolished in 1992, I was outraged and strongly felt that it had to be re-built, if there was to be justice. But, over the past few years, my thinking has changed. The masjid was not being used for prayer at least since 1947. And apparently, in Islam, a masjid ceases to be one if prayers are not offered for a considerable period of time. Neither was the masjid of any cultural or religious significance to the muslims. On the other hand, the Ram temple that was supposedly demolished and replaced by the masjid, was of special significance to Hindus because it marked the place where Lord Ram was born. So, while I don`t know what the position is legally, I strongly feel that muslims should be magnanimous and agree to hand over the site to the hindus for building a Ram temple, considering that the place is very special to hindus and that a hindu temple was demolished to make way for the masjid.
However, it still leaves a couple of unresolved issues: a) The demolition of the masjid was a crime. What happens to the criminals? b) What if the BJP/VHP types ask for more temples to be restored to hindus? c) What about the principle of secularism - given that the BJP/VHP campaign for the Ram temple has been markedly communal? This is a major shift from the early nineties when Advani used to say that hindus will respectfully shift the Babri Masjid brick by brick to an acceptable area, if the area was granted to the temple.

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Farzana..my last post was for you..I did not write your name there I reackon..

+ +

And during this huge jamboree for the pampered lot in Delhi, do you know that there was an art exhibition where all the Mughal miniatures had been removed? But…it is a ‘part of the game’ too

+ +


If the miniatures were removed it might have been for a different reason than what you interpreted. We don’t know. So, you have to make sure first. Because there are many other places where the Mughal art has been displayed and appreciated. Sometimes the Hindus from one state do not appreciate Hindu art forms or food from the other state. So, these things happen within one religion too. Like the hue and cry in the parliament over Hindi, raised by people from Tamil Naidu. And all the ‘hulla-gulla’ and shit created by the political leaders when they are in opposition even if they have same religion. This time Congress almost sounded pro-paksitani…
I myself do not like the sight of those aggressive looking, saffronised, bindi-waale, uneducated Hindus who know nothing about the ancient religion and yet claim to be the sole saviours of it. They have made a mess of Hinduism and disturbed the secularism. They are the same as if not worse than the Muslims who burnt the train in Godhra.

And the Muslims should also ask them selves, how much do they apprericiate the Hindu art and culture of those glorious Hindu days which prevailed for a long long time before the advent of Mughals from the foreign land? Probably, deep in their hearts they too are biased towards the Muslim art and culture, inspite of the fact that the ancestors of Indian Muslims were mostly Hindus. Hindus do appreciate Taj Mahal, Q-Minar etc and go there but how many muslims appreciate Hindu buildings and temples??

See, how hurt you feel even if some of the miniatures are not displayed in some exhibition. Close your eyes and imagine, how atrocious, how awful it must have e been to see the ancient temples being destroyed by likes of Babar and Changhez Khan and on top of that thousands of temples, not just one or two. This anguish, this bitterness ha s been passed on to the current generation of Hindus and they give vent to their pent up feelings. Although it is no use dragging on like this and it would be good to ‘forgive and forget’.


Whether anyone admits or not, many Hindus were converted forcibly into Islam, although some converted into it because they liked it genuinely. See, how the conversions were forced upon Sikh gurus who protested. Guru Gobind ji’s sons were made to die slowly in the confines of brick walls. These things did happen. Some Hindus were brave so they protested but most of them gave in to the demands of time and bowed before the Muslim kings. Now, many (not all) of the same very converted Hindus hate their ancestoral Hindu culture as that is considered appropriate by Islam, isn’t it.


Mughals did some great things but most of these things were not directly inherited from the foreign (Persian/Uzbekistan etc) land where they came from. They brought some new culture, which they blended with the local and some new things emerged. They married local women so the off springs must have had a Hindu as well as Muslim blood.

Look at Urdu, a blend of Hindi and Persian, look at all the curries…and similarly the art and other finer things. And these things were not exclusively created by the Mughals because numerically Hindus still outnumbered the Muslims, even in those eras. Maybe Taj was built by Shahjahan but creatively we all can imagine how many Hindus were behind him, working behind the scenes. He was the king so he got all the credit.

So, it is no good saying this is Muslim this is mine, this is Hindu this is yours. We all do not know what is really ours or not. In fact, everything Indian is ours.

I talked to some Hindus and I feel the root of the whole problem is: the question that comes into the minds of the sensitive(or maybe fanatic) Hindus that even though the roots, the ancestors of most of the sub-continental Muslims were Hindus, yet they do not associate with Hinduism in any way and do not appericiate. Rather they look down upon Hinduism as a ‘kafir’ religion or an inferior one to Islam. So, why should they accept anything Muslim. It is like filmi ‘badley ki bhavnaa’.

And yet Islam is very much one of the religions of our country, with all its festivals, which means it is accepted and respected too.

So, you just have to start looking at things a bit positively.

dear farzana,don``tdepress.in fact world has changed now.present time is different.we r living in globle village now.i am just sending you the answer..
Question: What is the absolute PERFECT example of ``globalization``?

Answer:
The untimely death of Princess Diana. An English princess with her
Egyptian boyfriend crashes in a French tunnel, driving a German car with a
Dutch engine, driven by a Belgian who was high on Scotch whiskey, followed
closely by Italian paparazzi riding on Japanese motorcycles, treated in
hospital by an American doctor using Brazilian medicines!
And this was sent to me by a Canadian living in the U.S., sipping Kenyan
coffee and nibbling on Swiss chocolate and Chilean raspberries, using
technology Microsoft stole from the Japanese.
You are probably reading this on one of the IBM clones that use
Taiwanese-made chips, and Korean-made monitors, assembled by Bangladeshi
workers in a Singapore factory, transported in trucks driven by Indians,
hijacked by Indonesians, shipped overseas on Liberian-flagged freighters
and finally sold to you!
That, my friend, is Globalization!

arjun_m #116
Even after `they` got their own country and donot need to meet a single Hindu in their whole life, `they` still feel the need to whine about Hindus, all over their textbooks, all over their newspapers, all over websites like chowk, all the time. Then what to say about the pathetic situation of Muslims like Farzana who actually have to live among `us`(and inevitably be killed by us). Samjhaa karo.

I would advise Farzana to get out of her seige mentality and think big like the Mughals for a change. Her coreligionists need to get themselves some dirty bombs at least if not nukes from their willing cosufferers in Pakistan or Afghanistan. Itsy bitsy stuff which kills only 10-15 people at a time is no good.

Reply ArjunM

``So you dont expect hindus to apologize for the babri masjid demolition?``

No, man, only apologise for that if you knocked it down. Otherwise but why?

re: sadna #116

...maybe farceanna can herself lead the charge by strapping a bomb to herself and setting it off somewhere in india?....

Ref FartsAnna #113

[.....And since this thread will be out soon, unlike entrenched beliefs, I want to thank ..... soysauce.......]

I knew you would pick that brown-nosed a$$-kisser.

[m_souza(#100) ....
Zafar (#106): ........
(#104):]

No name for me? I am SOOOOO hurt!

[I have to apologise for a bomb blast in a Mulund train?]

Isaid {I notice that two days have passed and not one of you Islamist thugs have condemned it, Since you are a feminist, how about condemning it from the perspective that it is cowardly to attack women?} So where does the question of apologizing arise?

[By not condemning it, it is assumed I wanted it to happen? And now the feminist argument is thrown…]

But Hindus have to condemn AND apologize for Babri Masjid, right? What is wrong with the feminist angle anyway? Didn`t the Fakhrs hit a carriage reserved for women only? Aren`t you the one espousing feminist causes? But I must say you are consistent: I don`t remember you condemning the acid attacks on the faces of unveiled Kashmiri women.

[And my driver does not have to give my address to anyone; the Hindutva parties already have it and they send me all the literature and expensive books to let me know the ‘truth’.]

I am sure as a follower of The True Faith, you find those books and literature contain no truth whatsoever.

I said {A public figure HAS to respond publicly. But you managed to make Vajpayee`s statement sound like he was using code words to point to Muslims as cow-killers.} and you responded

[Only you can see such depth. What is the code word, anyway?]

neatly sidestepping the fact that Vajpayee had every right to defend himself publicly much like you b!tch about the sexual innuendoes thrown at you publicly. No amount of dodging around will hide that fact.

[If a god is recognised and worshipped as a ‘lingam’, then there will be such references]

Then the truth about 6-year-old Ayesha will also be dredged up. Fair is fair.

[Thanks for your information on date trees. I am not really keen on knowing about the PMS of the female trees, but it would have helped if you could provide information on the premature menopause of the male trees.]

Male menopause is a myth. PMS is a fact and you are living proof of that. Maybe I should send you a button I found in California: ``It is NOT PMS; I am normally b!tchy!``.

[Of course, since this was 8 years ago, your memory may have dimmed a bit. So do not stretch your mind too much. I shall understand.]

You wish! I can quote your interacts chapter and verse if need be. Remember that gem about the role of the pandits in an `azaadi` Kashmir?

rsaxena #122
I was thinking more of Dawood Bhai who surely knows where to lay his hands on tactical and dirty stuff. But first Farzana has to learn to put together two coherent sentences or Dawood Bhai will not be able to make head or tail of what she wants him to do.

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I want to know why soysauce is hated so much by so many Hindus. I beleive he himself is a hindu - probably he is low caste, but that is not the reason to display hate candidly to him. Upper caste hindus usually patronize to death the lower ones, in front of Paksitanis, at least, but why soy is different. I dont find soy`s views radically opposed to brahmin establishment. As a matter of fact, I think he (soy) wants to maintain the status quo of unequality of castes (judging from his posts); then why?

Ref Urstruly #124

[I want to know why soysauce is hated so much by so many Hindus.]

Because Sangilikkaruppan alias Soysauce is a complete fraud who practices the exact opposite of what he preaches.

[I beleive he himself is a hindu - probably he is low caste, but that is not the reason to display hate candidly to him.]

He is most certainlt not of low caste. If one chooses to recogize the caste hierarchy, I bet he belongs to one of the middle castes, one that has land, a business or a pawn shop and who mercilessly exploit the poor.

[Upper caste hindus usually patronize to death the lower ones, in front of Paksitanis, at least, but why soy is different. I dont find soy`s views radically opposed to brahmin establishment. As a matter of fact, I think he (soy) wants to maintain the status quo of unequality of castes (judging from his posts); then why?]

You are wrong. Nothing would please the Brahmin establishment more than the establishment of a meritocracy, with some quotas for **economically** deprived parts of the society. What Sangilikkaruppan wants is caste-based quotas where he could have his caste declared by paid-off politicians to be socially backward so that he could then take advantage of the economically deprived communities whom he and his forefathers have been cruelly exploiting for centuries. Even better, he would then bribe some government official to certify him on paper to be of the Dalit community so that he could get a life-long job with the government (as one Gounder has done at the Regional Engineering College, Trichy, and this guy holds a teaching job, not a chaprasi`s, so you can figure out exactly what ethics the students are learning). In short, he wants to emulate the ``exploitative Brahmins`` he has been told so much about but for which very little proof exists.

In short, it is the hypocrisy of Sangilikkaruppan that exposes him to derision on the Chowk.

What triggered this article? I mean, there has been no major communal riots even on the anniversary of Godhra; neither Hindus using tridents to kill Muslims nor Muslims hanging beef carcasses on temple walls. Is it due to the the fact that India was winning the important matches in the World Cup? Can not Muslim bakers celebrate that victory by baking tri-colored cakes? Would that be ``objectifying`` India as a model for celebration and does that stick in FartsAnna`s craw? Or is it just plain PMS?

I really don`t understand the motivation for this particular rant at this particular time. Is it just me?