Excavating India

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PS: Those ``fed up with this kind of whining`` were not dragged here or even specially invited. But then, how else can they hit below the belt? What `untruths` can they argue against in pure clinical terms? None. So they talk about a woman`s sexual frustrations for speaking our her mind. By this logic, the PM, DPM, Modi, Savarkar, Singhal, Togadia, Jaitley, Shourie are all sexually frustrated. At least i don`t rule the country; they do. And this is your pick. Sick!

Some more…

(#10):
[The constitution of India also requires a common civil code..Don`t see a lot of ``minorities`` fighting for that]

What stops the government from tabling it in Parliament? As for the criminal laws, the minorities routinely get arrested under POTA anyway!

[(The PM of a large country with such diversity goes on record to say, “I would prefer to die rather than eat beef”)
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Those are his personal beliefs. Liberals have a problem with freedom of speech when the speech isn`t in line with their
thinking..]

If he wants to express his personal beliefs, he can tell that to his friends. He is speaking publicly as the PM and responding to accusations in that capacity.

[And a death penalty for cow slaughter?
++
No such thing has been proposed by the NDA...please don’t tell me what the VHP/BD says and extrapolate it to the agenda of the NDA.
You are no different from the hindu nuts who point out crackers bursting in Mahim when Pakistan wins and then extrapolating it to question the loyalties of the muslim community.]

The last bit is really sweet…but everyone knows that what the VHP/BD say today, the NDA does tomorrow.

[Or until they have convinced us that the country is secular only because it has a Hindu majority?
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That is true...name a single muslim country that is secular..or has any semblance of democracy for that matter..]

My full quote was: “Or until they have convinced us that the country is secular only because it has a Hindu majority? India is perhaps the only secular democracy that has to reiterate that it is a Hindu majority state. And it has nothing to do with the ancient history of Hindu civilisation, but the less than 80-year existence of Hindutva.” The countries that call themselves ‘Muslim’ or ‘Islamic’ do not put up a pretence.

I have mentioned ‘majority community’ not because I wanted to skirt the issue; everyone knows who the majority is and I have not shied away from using the term Hindu several times. If people need an “interesting spin”, they should find it within themselves.

And for those asking me/welcoming me to Pakistan, I know where I want to go and when. You stay in your foreign lands. As for one more mouth to feed this mohajir, lady, first get back to your own country and then worry about the mouths to feed. Besides, I would be able to feed a few of you…as far as I can tell from the prevailing Indian opinion here, there would be some who would be eating out of the palm of my hands.

Stuka (#13)

Will you ask the government of India for solutions that are in keeping with the spirit of the Constitution? Why is it that I have to have the answers, when I am always asking questions? You are right when you say, “Yes, there are 163 million
Muslims. So what? Do they have the exact same political needs?” No, they don’t. But there is always a blueprint on which most will be agreed on. A political identity based on religion would be counter-productive, but if that religion is thrust down your throat, do you have a choice? Besides, what direction do the 800 million Hindus have except for the resurgence of the fundamentalist parties?

On a personal note, your post on the unplugged board is revealing: when I say something positive about India, no one responds. It does not make political sense to do so.

Pakfin(#7):
[Once the Muslims disown the mullahs and look towards the liberal intelligentsia for leadership, there may be some
hope left for progress.]

In India the mullahs do not play a leadership role, like the shankaracharyas do. At the site of the digging you had suited -booted members of the Waqf board and Babri Masjid Action Committee, not some pandits whipping up emotions. As for liberal intelligentsia, most common Muslims cannot relate to their double talk. Progress can come when these people mobilise themselves, and there are a few mohalla committees that are trying to do so.

Urstruly (#3):
[On the political front, they must forge alliances with Dalits and Shudras and other oppressed communities.]

Everyone is out to save their own ass. Some prominent dalit leaders are forging alliances with the Shiv Sena. We do not have Dr. Ambedkar’s followers now…the Namdeo Dhasals and Ramdas Athavales are opportunists. And even in Gujarat the saffron parties did try to make it into a Dalit vs. Muslim fight.

Everytime, I think I will know how to handle the opinions (if mine expressed in an article are unsolicited, so are those of some readers who offer no plausible arguments), something new comes up. This time it is whether an interactor can call my piece excellent. Veeresh, you bait urstruly with a, “could you please explain to me what is excellent about this write-up? Is it excellent as an individual`s opinion, or is it excellent on verified facts?” When he does give his version primarily about my opinion (something he need not have done for he is entitled to his views), you bait him further: “what in Farzana`s article, specifically, is excellent? Her facts are not correct, so what else could be excellent?” There are many people who admire, empathise with a writer for their opinions, and I have not seen other interactors get so persistent with this line of questioning. And knowing urstruly’s penchant for going into overdrive, this was just what everyone needed. (Have read 18 replies.)

In your exhaustive post, you have not thrown up any facts that can dispute what I have stated. So I think it is unfair to spread a canard that I have not put forth the facts; you may have a dispute with my opinions and my way of putting them across. But please point out where I have misled with wrong facts. This is extremely important.

I shall take some of the points you have mentioned:
1. The Ayodhya/Kashmir comparison has been explained in the first sentence. Do not twist it with statistics; I was clear about what I was saying. “Ayodhya is likely to become another Kashmir – a nice little plaything for the Hindutva parties to preserve their vote bank and to blame the ‘foreign hand’.”
2. The cow: This is more than symbolism. Getting laws to be passed on cow slaughter (death penalty), making it a national animal, and fighting elections on the strength of these factors? Do you equate this with the other examples?
3. Shouts of ‘Jai siyaram’: this was mentioned in the context of my point about religion vs. nationalism in the specific instance of Gujarat.
4. I do have a problem with Muslims displaying the national flag ‘specifically’ to prove a point. This is not something they have done traditionally. Besides, how many Hindus are doing so during their religious festivals? How many organised maha-aartis during the Indo-Pak match? Sporting multi-religious symbols on autos/taxis are, as you said in your point no. 2, mere symbols, right? It is like displaying pictures of film stars. And I do think your reference to the Armed Forces in this context is unfortunate. That has nothing to do with symbolism. Please refrain from making such mischievous insinuations.
5. Sai Baba vs. Imam Bukhari: You know if Muslims were so free, why would a newspaper ask me to ‘go slow’ when I wrote about the Baba? Ok, leave that aside, Sai Baba can manage all this because of the funds, mainly foreign funds and those from rich industrialists; no one sponsors the Imam, which in itself is a very telling statement. I have incidentally been to Baba’s ashram, so there is no question of being mis-informed. Besides, the accusations regarding certain horrible events, when they got too much, had to be reported in the papers. They are all there.
6. As for me being unable to take you to the Jama Masjid, I have escorted an Italian male and at another time a clean-
shaven Tamilian friend, who looks every inch a Hindu South Indian. And we took pictures there. So, what are you
talking about?
7. I have always maintained that Muslims do not have the right leadership, but I do not like the idea of the majority
community telling us who to choose as our leaders. It is ridiculous to assume that more of them are terrorised by the ‘mai-baaps’ from their own community than the larger malaise of our society. Regarding ‘Muslim fiefdoms’ in certain areas, of course they exist – the gangs, the smuggling rackets and yes even within the Shiv Sena (terrorised by Balasaheb). But as we have been told only early this month, even the dreaded D-gang has top police officers, a couple of ministers and bureaucrats on its payroll. Why will this revelation die a silent death whereas the ‘criminals’ are given a chase? And if you insist on making this too into a ‘Muslim’ issue, then let us talk about Chhota Rajan who was hailed as a Hindu fighter because he broke away from Dawood after the bomb blasts.

I do have an argument against Muslims being forced to behave in a silly fashion to prove their credentials. I got a call from the TOI on the day of the match at around 8 pm. “What do you think about all these things, the namaaz, the painted faces?” One, why was my opinion solicited? Two, why did those Raza Academy people not do these things during the other matches India played?

It is easy for you to refer to these things as a “bump”, but please understand it is not going to end. This is not how things “evolve”. This is how things die.

#49 by hrrehman on March 13, 2003 11:18pm PT

Are you saying that Paki girls are so shitty that your guys have to look for Indian girls to go out with?

#53 by FarzanaVersey on March 14, 2003 0:03am PT
``PS: Those ``fed up with this kind of whining`` were not dragged here or even specially invited. But then, how else can they hit below the belt? What `untruths` can they argue against in pure clinical terms? None. So they talk about a woman`s sexual frustrations for speaking our her mind. By this logic, the PM, DPM, Modi, Savarkar, Singhal, Togadia, Jaitley, Shourie are all sexually frustrated. At least i don`t rule the country; they do. And this is your pick. Sick! ``

Well I guess we have to do a profiling of ``feminists`` to figure out their sexual status.

Farzana, you took the frustration bait that was thrown at you.

Hmmm

...you want to know how we sometimes feel? Well this is how we sometimes feel. Not how we think, not what we base our opinions on, not conclusions we reach after sitting up at night thinking about pros and cons...but how we sometimes feel, some of un-censored questions we sometimes ask.

Of course if you don`t want to know, that`s another matter. If you would be more comfortable if we felt differently, I`m sure that`s understandable - but hissing and booing will only shut us up sometimes. It won`t change how we sometimes feel.

Go on. Ask. WHY?

Then sit for five minutes, and the answer will come to you because...because....because...we really are not that different from you, in fact we are quite similar.

How do you like them apples?

Farzana:

``On a personal note, your post on the unplugged board is revealing: when I say something positive about India, no one responds. It does not make political sense to do so. ``

LOL. I don`t think it`s about political sense. I think it`s about making a lot of Chowkies feeling foolish. After all if they have types reams on your Pakistani identity, then your saying something positive leaves them with nothing to stand on.


``Will you ask the government of India for solutions that are in keeping with the spirit of the Constitution? ``

Yes. I think a Law and Order approach is best if uniformly applied. In India however, lawbreakers become lawmakers.


``what direction do the 800 million Hindus have except for the resurgence of the fundamentalist parties? ``

None at all, except in a completely reactionary sense. But that is my whole point. Hindu fundamentalism if you want to call it that (i prefer Hindu communalism) exists as a reaction. It has no basis in faith. Ironically ``Islam khatrey mey`` has resulted in a situation where more``mussulmaan khatrey mey`` then ever before.

While you blame the government and talk about playing by the constitution, what I find more alarming about India is the radicalization of the average Hindu. Living as a minority in the states the radicalization of white Americans would be far more terrifying compared to government shenannigans to get polictical mileage.

Faisaluno:

``things are going to be ok. baseball is around the corner. something tells me that red sox are going to do it this year. ``

Tumharey Muh mey ghee shakkar. Are you from Boston my man?

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There are indisputably some very serious points here. I suggest everyone take them seriously before reacting.

Dr Shridhar,

I agree with most of your opinions.

I do have a major pique about my ``dietary restrictions`` in Hinduism....among other assorted million bs & cowsh*t crapola in my religion.

Hinduism is the PERFECT buffet religion. You eat what you like & ignore the rest. If another hindu doesnt like what I eat, I can, with great authority & lack of fear, say ``screw you; who f*cking died & made YOU a Prophet Or God?!`` Heck, my feminazi wife & daughter have made an ``informed decision`` to pray ONLY to female Godesses:!))

So if I love to eat beef or only non-vegeterian food, despite being a brahmin, I have the RIGHT to eat it---whether I`m in India or anywhere else in the world. Pray tell me , who the F*CK has the right to ``excommunicate`` me from my religion?! If any bhatji or pujari or RSS F*CK gives a ``fatwa`` that I`m not a ``true`` hindu---I`ll fatwa his butt! So, if I have a right to eat it, every other community has the right to eat it!

Hey! if it offends ``your`` sensibilities, I`m sorry! I`m not coming to YOUR house & eating beef, am I? Who the F*CK is the RSS or BJP to tell us what we should eat & what we should NOT eat?!! Ban cow ``slaughter``, because it offends most Hindus?! Anybody who espouses such a law better eat sh*t & die, as far as I`m concerned!

What happens tomorrow if some ``purer`` & ``truer`` Hindu in power starts espousing the virtues of vegeterian food? Will they then pursue a law to ban ``chicken & goat`` slaughter?! How about banning ``egg`` slaughter because some of my Gujju friends would cringe & say ``ssss...paaap lagega!!``?!

Let me make it a little crazier..what if there is a ``Morarji Desai``-like PM, who believes in drinking his own urine; first thing in the morning?! You know, when its most concentrated, full of glucose, ketones, yesterdays marijuana & other assorted ``crap``...You know, Indian politicians are WORLD FAMOUS for giving scientific opinions on just about everything...except that they hardly seem to know anything about running a frikking country!

Do you think there will be a lobby in ``pure`` Hindu political circles; sometime in India`s Hindutva future, that will push for laws about marketting urine?! They are already espousing the virtues of cow urine! Wow, lets run an ad campaign to bottle cow urine. Heck we could even convince the Coca Cola company to add a ``dab`` of cow-pee in Coke to increase market share in India!

When you talk about ``religious`` sensibilities of the majority; you go down a VERY VERY slippery slope, my friend:)

As a fellow brahmin & physician (though janitorial), I admire & applaud your wisdom, opinion & knowledge in MOST areas...(let it NOT be said, henceforth, that I kiss ONLY muslim butt)....I admit it; Tamilians are some of the most intelligent people on earth. However, even in the midst of all that intelligence, there arises a ``weed of idiocy`` in the form of that Tamilian Harimou...``Hinduism ka mashoor pehelwan!!``. Like most of his Hindutva cohorts, he believes an early morning erection is due to pressure from a full bladder--that impinges on nerves--that makes the muscles in the penis contract (you know, according to him, penile anatomy is full of skeletal muscles).

See, if he sticks to Bharat Natyam, he knows what he`s talking about (I THINK!)..But like all these Hindu politicians, he gives idiotic opinions about every other subject, that he knows nether s*it nor shinola about...

Sigh...its because of Hindus like these that I want to become a Parsi....

hamidm: YOu write ``Zeta is fat``. This is too much!! Is nothing sacred anymore. Having bitten the hand that fed you as a child (Pakistan), having ranted about the orrible indoos, you now dare raise your poison pen against that Catherine Zeta Jones of the cutest smile. As Zeta`s great granduncles would have said: Zounds man.

#s 53, 52 by FarzanaVersey

[Those ``fed up with this kind of whining`` were not dragged here or even specially invited.]

Excuse me...if you have the right to rant, then expect others to differ as well. This is not your `baap ka raj`.

[As for the criminal laws, the minorities routinely get arrested under POTA anyway!]

Instead of leveling absurd charges, could you please provide us with figures? That would be more revealing than paragraphs after paragraphs of the same meaningless crap. If you can`t, you had better shut up.

[If he wants to express his personal beliefs, he can tell that to his friends. He is speaking publicly as the PM and responding to accusations in that capacity.]

Is it illegal to say that in public? In a country where people get away with professing their loyalty to an enemy country, I think this is after all, a non-issue.

[but everyone knows that what the VHP/BD say today, the NDA does tomorrow.]

Again, you are leveling allegations without making any effort whatsoever to back them up with facts and figures.

[India is perhaps the only secular democracy that has to reiterate that it is a Hindu majority state]

That`s perhaps because there are very few secular democracies in the first place.