Excavating India

what`s the big friggin deal guys?

Farzana has written good and bad things about her country.....instead of discussing and analyzing, why do Indian Chowkies pounce on her with fangs and irrelevant insults?

you guys can`t take self criticism? sounds like the `land of the pure` syndrome has transferred itself to India.

very passionately written. i am in no capacity to comment on its correctness (political or otherwise).

I wonder wat is it in the US that enables humans to deal with others on just that level - human. And not allow th religious prejudices interfere in the interactions.

Why can`t we do that in this part of the world? Or let me ask a more useful question, How can we mature to a state where just being human is enough for us to love somebody? We kill people just because they have killed a cow? Or we kill people because they dont want to kill a cow? Dont you think its a little funny?

Green, Safron and white are colors of religion. I think Muslims do not have to live in reaction. Reinventing wgat muslims stand for will a great service to the mankind.

Islam is probably the only religion that does not need a boundary to thrive or bind people together. Its transbordernature will heal the wounds. When reinvented, it will look very much like real secularism???

Paigham # 74, two errors . . . (a) historically Mughals / Muslims were rulers of tracts in India which varied in size from close to nil to parts, but nnever ever all of it . . . (b) Urdu is NOT NOT NOT the language spoken by a majority of Muslims in India as shall be re-confirmed by a vast variety of people speaking Bengali, Tamil, Kannada, Telugu, Konkani, Oriya, Gujarati, Sindhi, Assamese, Gorkhali, Malayalam, English, Punjabi, Avadhi, Bhojpuri, Maithili . . . (c) it is yes possibly the language spoken by a small number of trouble making type feudal Muslims from a down and out sect called Wahabi which came into oil money a while ago.

I guess now it is possible for me to say nice things about my Hindu driver. He thinks the SS is ok, but the “marathis” are badmaashes and so on… Now no one can hold me for using this petty example, right? No one can say that I am just quoting someone, a lone individual and what proof do I have, and heck he does not represent the general thinking. I suppose it is okay now for me to be a part of Chowk, because the Hindu voice taking on Hindu rituals has been given an airing, so I am not the only one looking for Pakistani votes, right? And I have not even said it feels good to be a Muslim.

[This is FartsAnna`s usual trick of quoting partially or without specifying the context. Vajpayee was publicly accused by some Congresswallah as one who eats beef and his spokesman replied that Vajpayee would die before eating beef. So this was NOT an instance of Vajpayee dredging up cow slaughter to get at Muslims. But that is not the way our wise friend
sees it. And our resident Mullahs lap it up and praise FartsAnna as the Conscience of India.]

My quote (#52): “If he wants to express his personal beliefs, he can tell that to his friends. He is speaking publicly as the PM and RESPONDING TO ACCUSATIONS in that capacity.”

And I get my quotes from newspapers too, since I am a citizen of India and do not have a schizophrenic national identity.

And yes, stated elsewhere is this truly wonderful sentiment: “The simplicity of Islam was appealing to me.” I suppose now there will not be insinuations about the Prophet’s sex life, and camels and sodomy. And now that people know a bit more about dates, it would help if they realised that most Muslims do not survive on that.

Various others…
I did not bite the ‘frustration’ bait; I have usually ignored it. But realised that this was going on for too long. Male writers who think and express themselves in a similar manner are not given this special treatment…Khushwant Singh, Kuldip Nayyar, Dilip D”Souza, Praful Bidwai….

Re. My mention of the kumbh as a testosterone-driven madness, the article was about religion and sex, plain and simple…and there were references to the Haj and Christian rituals as well.

I do not ask Hindus who they should choose as their leaders; I merely point out when there are bad leaders, and they include Farooq Abdulla, Ghulam Nabi Azad, Salman Khurshid as well.

[...it must be burning up the author to see mohammad kaif take india to victory today...i wonder how he would feel knowing that there are people like her spreading poison in the country and asking muslims to cheer for opponents...]

My quote from the article: “For the first time in my life I wanted Pakistan to win that cricket match against India because I would have liked to see all THOSE SILLY MUSLIMS go blue in the face… Because these chicken shits wanted to prove their patriotism. They wanted to tell the Hindu brothers and sisters (not the Dalits, Parsis, Christians, mind you) that they were Indian.”

It makes me wonder if posting an article on Chowk can spread “poison” and a quote such as this constitutes asking Muslims to cheer for opponents. As I stated elsewhere, on the eve of the World Cup I wrote a pep-up piece on Saurav. And this was before we had reached this stage. I will stand by my country even when it is down, boy; I do not come only to applaud when we are on a winning spree.

m_souza (#77):
If only you had adopted this tone right in the beginning we could have had a decent dialogue right then…as you can see, there is no compulsion for me to interact; most writers don’t. But since I am dealing with a subject that concerns us, I try and get here to see if there are issues that sound a discordant note. Veeresh and I have managed to engage in such a dialogue because he knows how to be civil, though we may still not agree with each other.

You might find some answers there and in my other posts. But I do object to the constant refrain by so-called educated people that I should leave my country when most of them are not in MY country. I am afraid, it is not possible to “ignore” the fanatics; we have to deal with them. If it comes across that all I do is critique India, I am writing about a specific subject, and if it has affected me in a certain way I cannot pretend otherwise.

As veeresh said, I use my real name and have taken my share of flak. I do not abuse interactors. You seem to be fairly new here, so if you are interested, I have written about Diwali and about POWS which you can check out on Chowk itself, and after you see some of the nasty responses even to my positive Indianness, and think those are well-deserved, you may call me ‘baybeh’. Honestly, these are words and reveal how the thinking of the person uttering them. Besides, this gives a worse impression of our country than anything I might write.

Zafar:
Where are you? Stream of consciousness type chhey…
[How do you like them apples?]

Indian apples are hard to come by in Pali Market and all of Bandra and my pyaara sheher. Getting New Zealand and Australian ones, though. Major conflict: should I bite the bait and be deemed unpatriotic?

Is that why many Indians serve ‘Indian Scotch’ and chevda?

#66 by arjun_m on March 14, 2003 7:06am PT

Getting into American universities

Arjun I hope you are not as stupid as you seem, please stop comparing
yourself w/Pakistan. We are 10% of the size of India in population.
Start comparing yourself w/China and then you will realize how far behind you Hindus really are.

#54 by harish_hyd on March 14, 2003 0:27am PT
#49 by hrrehman on March 13, 2003 11:18pm PT

Are you saying that Paki girls are so shitty that your guys have to look for Indian girls to go out with?

We don`t have to look for Indian girls my friend, they come knocking
on our doors. Being a good Paki and a decent man I have to oblige,
after all what are neighbors for.

Veeresh (#68):
I am not sure any clarification here is likely to help those who are using your posts to get back at me. However, let me try and answer some more of your queries.
- Kashmir/Ayodhya: The comparison was never meant to be literal. A “plaything”…will be on the backburner until kingdom come. Possibility of Pandit vote banks? The Ayodhya effect will not translate into Muslim vote banks in most of India.
- I do not believe the Muslims are a homogenous unit, as my post to stuka stated. Of course money plays a role. Booth capturing does. But there has to be a political agenda, and usually it relies on ‘vote bank’ politics.
- I would never raise an objection to the flying of the national flag. Why don’t you see the context? I emphasise again that those Muslims were doing it only to come out clean. It was not a spontaneous upsurge of feeling. Trust me on this. (And I can share this with you…many members of my family do go for the flag hoisting held at the local park, and a paper tricolour is fitted in their cars, all year long. And it was I who had objected to Rahman’s pop version of ‘Vande Mataram’.) Regarding your worry about the chattering class of Muslims, I am concerned on another count: they are trying to overtake the secular movement. We both know that the common Muslim does not give a damn, which is why I am wary of the liberal intelligentsia. I find them more dangerous than the mullahs.

As for the Armed Forces, I would be happy to see many more Muslims joining it. I just did not want you to equate it with the symbolism of some people being forced, due to their insecurity, to use the national flag.

- Re. Sai Baba…that is precisely the point; his tricks were in the papers, therefore it was surprising that I was asked to go slow. Don’t you see it? As a Muslim I have to think at least twice before I comment on people/issues that are of national interest and the nation happens to be a Hindu-majority. About the general good he has done, I think there are many Muslim communities which have done so too. The Aga Khanis, the Bohras, the Memons. And not everyone belonging to them is rich. I do believe that the Baba’s organisation needs to be examined closely for a lot of things. I have already stated that the Imam ought to be arrested on grounds of misuse of the Jama Masjid premises.
- Multi-religious symbols are fine if they are done as a part of one’s ‘normal’ thinking. I had once mentioned here
about the Nataraj statue we had at home and which held great sentimental value. The reaction? “Oh, it is just a pretty
showpiece for you.”
- You are right, nobody can go into a mosque, that is the prayer area, but do not compare it with an ‘ashram’. I can say
anyone can enter a dargah. It is a fact that women and outsiders cannot enter the mosque, and there has been no
confusion on that; there are some temples where women and non-Hindus cannot enter. Non-Parsis cannot enter the
Fire Temple. If we go into the customs of all religions, then women are certainly not given equal status. It is
ridiculous to assume that I would condone that. Perhaps having been born and brought up in an Aga Khani
household and not having to suffer this discrimination (men and women sit in the same prayer hall), I have taken
some things for granted.
- Indo-Pak match: You say, “the Muslim upper class in India want to deny their followers the option of feeling
good?” Oh, those sms messages came from upper class people; the Raza Academy is not run by the poor Muslims.
These are the new jehadists, promoting a pseudo-secular agenda not because they truly believe in it but they want
to hold the reins of power. I had met one young brat from this pack at the Princess Street police chowkie (both our
cars had been towed away! Mine wrongfully, as they later discovered) and you should have seen the way he
spoke to the cops, “Aap jaante hai main kaun hoon?” (He was some upstart’s son) And then when he saw me write
my name on the chit, he said he had gone for namaaz and his car was taken away. I told him he had no business to
park where he did. But these people will do anything. Muslim corporators may put up banners wishing their
constituencies on all festivals, but most of us know who they are hand-in-glove with. Which is why I had asked in
my article that funding of liberal/secular organisations need to be examined too.
- “Farzana, I got a good bet waiting to be taken with you that this one will come from the Muslim women in India
who are NOT from the lah-di-dah chi-chi class.”
There is no bet here, for I want it as much as you do. I have no faith in the chi-chi class, even though I like my canapés and several other things. And when it does happen, the treat is on me. Btw, I don’t eat beef, never have.

Re. Urstuly, he may not make for a great dinner companion but he does have an ‘excellent’ taste in wine :)

Regards (and plz, if you still have an argument, we can talk it over elsewhere),
Farzana

Thank you and some others for the civilised tone of the discourse.

I have already put ALL BLAMES -- for Most of the Misfortunes of the Muslim World -- -- squarely on the shoulders of the United States – EVERYWHERE in the world -- so I don`t have to participate in this OLD DESI pastime of debasing Mandir/Masjid Acrimony.

ahle watan kaa mushghala muzhub pe maar peet
achchaa hua hum aagai ahl-e watan se dooor

but no peace here either -- NOW I have to deal with a ‘different’ URGENT Acrimony

We the Muslims are NEVER at fault – it’s all the fault of the United States!

re#39

hamidm2 -- is ur mothr-in-law from Lucknow?

Frazana: Some parts of your article I agree with, some disagree. I share in particular your concern the demonification of muslims (by representing extremist maulvis as muslim leaders when in fact they fail in elections from places with large muslim constituencies), having experienced first hand this demonification of Pakistanis by so many Indian posters on chowk. Demonification of a community has historically been the psychological first step that makes it possible to attack and kill individuals from that community, and indeed has been used explicitly for this purpose during war.
The destruction of Babri masjid, and the vilification of Indian muslims for applauding for the Pakistani cricket team (another thing I have seen often enough on chowk), while again part of the same rise of hindu chauvinism in India, is actually something childish. God does not need mosques, and a good muslim`s love for God is in his heart and not in bricks and stones. And cricket is just a game, and to the mixing of politics with a game is the true sign of a moron. I hope someday Indians (muslim and hindu) will grow up and stop messing with cricket by dragging it into politics.
If I were an Indian muslim, I would not go around flaunting my 163 million strong population, however. What are you going to do anyway with these numbers?? Destroy one of their temples, so they come back and destroy two of your mosques? Or take a mob and attack some innocent hindu families, the same way hindu extremists took a mob and attacked innocent muslim families.
I sense a lot of bitterness in you. Remember that bitterness never hurt anyone except yourself. Laugh off the idiots who want to destroy mosques. Forgive those who attack muslims, not as a favor to them but as a favor to yourself. You will clear your mind to do the three best things you can for muslims in India - education, education and education.
Once India reaches a certain stage of development, these hindu-muslim hatreds will become as much a part of history as the religious hatreds in Europe in the middle ages.
Long post, but I needed to write it. I feel better already, and hope you will reflect a bit on what I wrote. :-)

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hrrehman,

{{We are 10% of the size of India in population.
Start comparing yourself w/China and then you will realize how far behind you Hindus really are.}}

Yeah, but ``you Pakis`` (ie your national voice--the military) THINKS you are better than India.

Its bad ENOUGH:

1) That the Pak military has NEVER WON a war in her ``glorious`` history
2)That the only entity in the world that is scared SH*TLESS of your fearless military is your own civilian population.
3) That your country, thanks to your glorious military, is now the HUB of international terrorism, opium & AK-47s
4) That, thanks to your military, your country has now been gauged on how LOW it will bend, depending on which carrot & stick is applied by big daddy....

DESPITE that; your military thinks that it can take on India anytime, anywhere,--- & everytime your headhoncho opens his trap about the military--its about how gloriously it has upheld its national HONOR by standing tall to India.

Tell your military to sit down & shut up...those bandars have gotten their ass beaten everytime they`ve sparred with India---but are so PROUD that they cloak themselves with sanctimonious ``EXCUSES``--well India is 10 times bigger--so unless & until their ``kill`` ratio is 10 times more than ours, its a victory for Pakistan!!

Heheh...What does the Land of the PURE stand for?!--pure IDIOCY?!!!!
Let me be moooore brutally honest---Pakistanis (OK OK SOME Pakistanis;--otherwise Rev. Tahmed will give me a lecture) are handsomer, stronger & sexier than us heeng smelling indoos---but in the BRAINS dept, we thrash your macho butts. Besides, we are WORLD CHAMPIONS in cutting Pakistan down to size, when it thinks its too big for her britches...

Kinda like what happened at the World Cup..NOTHING, but NOTHING gives us Indians (even minorities) PURE joy than beating your pompous butts & shutting your TRAP! That tiny Sachin taught your invincible Rawalpindi Express the meaning of RESPECT. These Pakistani mashoor pehelwans (like your military) act like they are too big for their britches. Then when they get their BUTTS WHUPPED, they`ll keep quiet for some time & then say---aw what the heck, India is 10 times our size; so in COMPARISON we are better than India---yup, always...no question about that:)

In contrast , we poor humble Indians have acknowledged that China is ahead, & that it whupped our butts in 62.
THATS WHY WE DONT F*CK WITH THEM!!!
We talk to each other like intelligent adults & resolve each issue on the negotiating table.
Do we give ``training camps`` to Tibetan militants? Do we interfere in the politics of ``disputed`` Chinese territory?? We DONT rattle our swords towards China.

We know where EXACTLY where we stand with them.

Do you think arjun_m & saxena will go to a Chinese website & give them Chinks an..er..``attitude``?!---NOT!!

But Pukistan?! Damn...you little chicken sh*t 10% of a country INSIST on taking on a bigger country & acting like youre too big for your britches! Then when you get your butts whipped you go to Amrika & Muslim brothers wailing for aid---saala BHIKARI!. Never mind if your ``friends`` ask you to bend over & give them a BJ for the aid--youre toooo willing to do ANYTHING to save your HONOR in front of the horrible indoos!

BTW, Pakistani military=Pakistan=you..Just what part of THAT would you want to deny? Its your military that represents the face of Pakistan & PaKISTANIS in the world stage & controls every facet of an average Pakistani`s life. Sheesh..I wont be surprised if you military tells you how to take a DUMP---!!!

Lemme also tell you, if you want to engage in an Indo-Pak spitting contest; we Indians have 10 times more cyberspit than you handsome creatures:))

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Re:hrrehman
Let`s have a trade here. You can take all the Indian girls, just send us some of those really hot Pakistani women....

Farzana,
The communal virus in India has certainly spread over the past few years. It is due to a combination of two factors. The first factor is the hindutva politics of raking up the temple issue 6 months before every election to create communal frenzy. These people are playing with fire and they don`t realize the damage it is causing to the country.
The second factor is the jihadi militancy from Pakistan which was very intense a couple of years back but is receding now. Each high profile terror incident such as Indian Airlines hijacking, parliament attack etc., ended up radicalizing large sections of hindus. The combination of these two factors is creating a potentially explosive situation in India.
The positive trend to offset all of this negativity is that the Indian economy is doing relatively well as compared to the past. As a result, there is a lot of churn going on in the society. People are moving all over the place, interacting with others and old barriers are coming down. A few years back, an intercaste or inter-regional marriage would be an exception with a lot of eyebrows raised. Today it is becoming common, especially in the urban circles. A strong sense of national identity is taking root and the national mosaic is slowly transforming to a US style melting pot. Muslims are facing the very same pressures to enter this melting pot, as is every ethnic and regional group. This can be a disturbing process because one feels that one is losing one`s identity, although the extent of that can be exaggerated. I am sure the Tamilian father whose daughter marries a Punjabi feels concerned that his grandchildren will lose their Tamilian heritage. The same fears enters the mind of muslims as well. The upside is that India is becoming a powerful nation, which is good for all of us. We are all facing similar forces and are adapting to it. We may have to trade-off some of our ``ethnic`` or ``religious`` identities in the process, but it may be well worth it.