Excavating India

Farzana .... what venom ....... you are making me struggle for words. Right now I`m too stunned to say anything. Dar ul Islam or Pinko stuff ? huh.

...hehe...someone get this woman on a PIA flight fast...please, she is begging for it in clean, clear language...i think even zaheer khan or kaif would be happy to help pay for it...

Excellent write up Farzana.

Sad as it is, but I see no hope for Muslims in India. At present, their best bet to stay alive is by arming themselves. On the political front, they must forge alliances with Dalits and Shudras and other oppressed communities. There must also be a political wing, established in Europe and may be in USA, to raise human rights issues at such forrums as EU and International Criminal Court. I think in next two to three years, the secular constitution of India will be abolished. Muslims have a window of opportunity of about two years to organize themselves to survive in the coming Bosnia.

So what`s new?
There is just too much going on in this piece. What`s your beef du jour with the evil hindus? That there are going to be archeological excavations in Ayodhya? That some charlatan is able to dupe thousands of people? That some Indians painted their faces in tri-color before India-Pakistan match?
Unsolicited advice from an academic article writer. If you have a lot to say, write it in different articles. Increases your article count.:)

Urstruly # 3, could you please explain to me what is excellent about this write-up? Is it excellent as an individual`s opinion, or is it excellent on verified facts?

Hello Farzana . . .

1) Ayodhaya = Kashmir? I don`t know, there is no comparision. There are hardly any Hindus or other non-Muslims left in Kashmir, while at last count, the distribution of people by religion hadn`t changed much in Ayodhya and the rest of UP and the rest of India. So, an old building is under dispute? There are many more in India, including in Bombay, and they fall down all the time on their own. How does the Rent Control Act and its unfairness towards humans differ from a litigation for Babri/Ayodhya and its unfairness towards humans?

2) On beef, is mad-cow enough reason, on date, to avoid beef? Anyway, if one community makes an animal their mother, another community decides that a stone in a desert far away is the devil, yet others dip in water and some swallow spit from the mouth of a priest, others walk around with chaddars collecting money, tazias being buried are not far away and I shall participate in all of them if possible, all this is symbolic, right? And I do hope you will appreciate that there will always be aberrations, exceptions? ``Got to go whip myself while you make fun of my cow?``

3) When houses are burnt and people are killed, there are enough cries of Jai Siya Ram as well as Allah Oh Akbar. So?

4) What is wrong with Muslims flying and displaying the flag, why does it get your goat? Do you also object to Muslims in India serving in the Armed Forces or other professions where religion doesn`t matter? Come on, speak up, are the educated Muslims in India afraid that they are about to lose their constituency of illiterate and simple Muslims, with whom they have been playing with for centuries? Boogie times here lady, the number of elderly statesmen like Muslims who sidle up to me and say ``kaum khatre mein hai`` has now reached amazing numbers. Obviously, others are not listening to them. Does it also upset you that auto andtaxi drivers in cities like Poona and Lucknow now sport multi-religious symbols and flags on their vehicles?

5) Come on, even you can`t take a stand for Imam Bukhari of Delhi versus Sai Baba of Puttaparthi. For a moment put aside the means and look at the ends achieved? One has taken the trouble to bring drinking water on tap to drought ridden districts, raise education amongst women, set up super speciality hospitals, make cleanliness a fetish. The other subjugates women, preaches violence and as for hygeine . . . give it a break, Farzana? And I think you are absolutely mis-informed on the white Caucasian supremacy bit, I know what I am talking about here, as an agnostic.

6) Accusations are a part of the horizon when anybody becomes somebody. But go into reality. The problem here is that while I can probably escort you into the Sai Baba Ashram without any worry courtesy friends of mine who are OK over there, you would not be able to do the same for me at the Jama Masjid in Delhi, and not just because you are a woman unable to get past the first few steps, inspite of my beard and knowledge of Muslim customs.

7) Another Bosnia? I don`t know, wherever I look, I see a panic on the faces of the upper class Muslims in India, worried as they are that almost 99% of the 150 million ordinary Muslims in India seem to be busy trying to settle down and get along with their lives and ignoring the ``leaders`` from their own community.

If there was one or one hundred or one lakh Muslims with their hands folded in terror at any given time in India, how many of them were in this state of terror because of the feudal mai-baaps from their own community? Think about that, Farzana, before you put across such absolute desperate material. Who runs the beggar gangs in Bombay, Farzana, and at any given moment, how many children are folding their hands in terror to whom, what do you think? You have walked Dharavi, so have I, as well as the backlanes of Saki Naka. I`ve also walked the Docks, hey, what do you know, would it surprise you if I confirmed to you that these are Muslim fiefdoms to an exclusive extent, even in Shiv Sena controlled Bombay, linked in an internecine fashion to the trade in human foetus and placenta for life extension therapies in Switzerland and Brazil, as well as to the body-part shopping? Hey, that must be OK, that`s business, right?

Gujarat was a bump, so is Kashmir, so was Punjab, so are large parts of the North East . . . these things evolve. At least we get a chance in India to bring up those we`ve pressed into the mud for centuries. And then you get upset if they bake pastries in the flag colours? Well, the flag does have green in it, so it also does saffron.

First of all nations are not made on the basis of religion. The two states formed on this basis are witness to the failure of religion as the foundation of a nation. Unfortunately, the trend these days for some secular states is to go the way of having religion form the basis of nationhood.

One of the biggest issues that Muslims face all over the world is that it is the Mullah who ends up as the public face of Islam and the representative of the Muslims. Once the Muslims disown the mullahs and look towards the libereal intellegentsia for leadership, there may be some hope left for progress.

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Urstruly:

``Muslims have a window of opportunity of about two years to organize themselves to survive in the coming Bosnia``

Yeah right!!! You`ve been saying similar bull since I`ve come to chowk and that`s been two years as well.

Veeresh


This article is an excellent write up on various accounts. First of all it is the writer herself. Speaking the word of truth, when one is the member of a minority community, in a country where state apparatus is used for genocide of minorities, without impunity, in the living daylights, in front of whole world, is a feat itself; a feat that probably only prophets, Socrates, and Mansur Hallaj can muster. She speaks truth, in a country where, fascist government has destroyed the lives and businesses of journalists of tehleka.com for exposing government`s corruption. She speaks in a country where press turns a blind eye towards the atrocities their government commits towards minorities and towards people in occupied territories. She speaks truth where press is so unethical that it gladly tows the government line and disseminates hate against minorities and neighboring countries without any burden on its conscience. That speaks volume about the strength of her character and purity of her political convictions. As a matter of fact, after seeing women like Benazir, Begum Abida Hussain, Indra Gandhi, Haseena Sheikh, our current female members of parliament and Emalda Marcus I had totally lost faith in women folk. It is only the women like Farzana, Zahida Hina, Kishwar Naheed and to some extent Arundhati Roy, that have restored my faith in womenfolk.

This article puts almost everyone in an extremely uncomfortable position, because through this article Farzana shows a mirror to the people as to what they are and what they are not. Don`t you understand, it is this uncomfort and unease that helps create the best of art, and motivate human beings to better themselves. You ungrateful Indians should be thankful to your bhagwans, that they have blessed you with a living conscience named Farzana. Because people like her are an asset and a source of pride for the countries.

Farzana:

I read this article and I get enough of a sense about what riles you but no sense of what you think a solution is.

``There are 163 million of us. And instead of waiting in the sidelines only to be told that we have been taught a lesson and should now toe the line to live peacefully in a land we are contributing to, must we not take the plunge and be ready to dig our own political graves? Dissent is not anyone’s personal fiefdom. ``

As the above is the concluding paragrapgh, I assume it points the way to the solution. What exactly does it say? Yes, there are 163 million Muslims. So what? Do they have the exact same political needs? They are not in a majority anywhere except the Kashmir valley so building a political identity based on religion alone will be counter productive.

If you were the spokesperson for all 183 Million Muslims, what direction would you give to them?

Urstruly #8, still doesn`t answer my question, what in Farzana`s article, specifically, is excellent? Her facts are not correct, so what else could be excellent?

Farzana - Welcome to Pakistan. Yet another mohajir to feed.

``If the majority community wants peace, then they should respect the rights enshrined in the Constitution that have been created for the protection of the minorities.``

What do you mean by ``majority community``? This is an example of blatant categorization with an interesting spin( i.e. of not naming the community directly) and could only be matched by the muderous logic of ``us and them`` employed by the neo-fascists whether of Hindutva origins or Islamic.

vereesh

This article is excellent because it is anti-India and anti-Hindu. Now I said it. Is that what you wanted to hear?

As for facts, here is what a white man wrote. It is almost everything that Farzana has written. May be you have more beleif in a white man than a Muslim minority, desi and worst - a woman.


http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/5384504.htm

Arjun M # 12, in the same vein, presumably everybody who committed murder thought about food atleast once in the 12 hours preceding the deed, so should we all give up eating?

...ok ok ...come on people...let poor farzana have her spotlight on chowk amongst sympathetic pakis....lord knows no indian newspaper (including those run by indian muslims such as mj akbar) will publish her crap...

Your comments are pure, unadulterated, bullshit!!
They bear no merit and have no resemblance to the truth.

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Bukhari should be tried for treason. I remeber him inciting a protest against the US before the US bombed the crap out of the Talipigs. This Bukhari dude knows very well that Taliban trained Jehadis in camps to kill Indian soldiers. As far as Sai Baba is concerned he is a fraud. Having said that he belongs to the majority community...that is why the greater importance as cmpared to Bukhari.

If you want Islamic leaders to have the same importance as others consider moving to Pakistan. BTW they are not very fond of Mohajirs either.

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Farzana, I`m not sure what exactly you`re advocating that muslims do. I do agree with you that the decision by the lucknow HC is biased & bad. It shifts the standards to some historical proof. By this standard, we should take away land granted to harimau`s great great grand father by some 2-bit raja - land denied to the peasant working it. We should may be return all the land to the adivasis.

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Farzana

All religions are political agendas in the name of God.

And preachers in all religions terrorize the ordinary folks in the name of God.

My humble request to India. Please do not go the way Pakistan went on the religion issue. You have an example as to what a radicalized religion can do to a country.

#25 by arjun_m on March 13, 2003 5:49pm PT
++++++++
Many muslims complain about a clash of civilizations...Why does it become a clash of civilizations? Because muslims in delhi who have very little in common with palestenian/afghan/iraqi muslims come out in huge numbers and protest against the ``atrocities`` on ``palestenian/afghan/iraqi muslims``. Its a clash of civilizations because muslims sometimes make it that way...
++++++++++

It is strange that the generally moderate Indian muslims protest in favour of Taliban, Osama etc. I can understand the sympathy for palestinians but support for the Taliban and Osama at the cost of their own country??? The blame has to lie on people like Bukhari who misuse their religious powers for political use like issuing fatwas.

I am not suggesting that misuse of religious power is a uniquely muslim problem. Even Sikh and Hindu religious leaders consider themselves no less than Abraham Lincoln.

One more thing, Urstruly, wrt your I am anti Indians/Hindus statement . . . this is what the Government of Pakistan says wrt recruitment into the Pakistan Civil Service at http://www.css.com.pk/Rules/rules.html

````iv) A candidate who has married a person who is not a citizen of Pakistan shall not be eligible for appointment provided that a person who marries an Indian national with the prior permission of Government may be regarded as eligible for appointment.````

So now are you telling me that your anti-India/Hindu thing is a personal position, contrary to what the Pakistani Government states?

#27 by Tipu on March 13, 2003 5:49pm PT
++++++++++
Bukhari is NOT a leader atleast not like Tagodia or Ashok Singhal who are NOT even a religious leader but failed professional or unemoployed medical doctor .
++++++++++

Bukhari is a leader in every sense of the word. He even issues fatwas before major elections asking muslims to vote en masse. His word carries a lot of weight....mainly because of the lack of any decent political leadership. Bukhari, Singhal, Tagodia are all leaders. Whether they are fit to be leaders is a different story altogether.

Bukhari will never be charged because people like Farzana will immidiately call it anti-muslim....they will not acknowledge the fact that Bukhari sides with Osama not peace. This is like pakistanis raising pro-Osama slogans in an anti-war(pro peace) rally!!!.BTW even Sai Baba should be charged for defrauding people of money and property not to mention disgusting sexual crimes.

I did not understand the rest of your post including the china part.

Hello urstruly,

My theory is that if you are anti-Hindu/Indian, then you are also anti-Muslim/Pakistan. Because by being anti-Hindu/India, you are damaging Muslims and Pakistan more than anything else.

So, from your point of view, please help me understand what is anti-India and anti-Hindu? Is it in isolation with Muslims/Pakistan exempted? I mean, there are Muslims who are Indians and Hindus who are Pakistanis, right?

More . . .in view of the definition given, using white men as referees, since we seem to be stuck at that, at http://www.bbc.com? . . . ````The Muslim-majority state of Pakistan occupies an area which was home to some of the earliest human settlements and two of the world`s major religions, Hinduism and Buddhism. The modern state was born out of the partition of the Indian sub-continent in 1947 and has faced both domestic political upheavals and regional confrontations. ````

To my interpretation of the white man`s truth, nothing can make things clearer about Pakistan`s heritage. Why, then, would you be anti-Pakistan?

sincerely,

Veeresh Malik

re:#8 by Urstruly
You think Farzana is going to do something good for humanity? Methinks, this is a sexually frustrated woman who has been spurned by many males. Or else she is raving mad. Make your pick.
sridhar

re:#3 by Urstruly
And, are you going to pay for the arms. You would wish the muslims stand up in revolt against Hindus in India, would you not? That would make you happy. Muslims in India have to decide their own fate but surely they know better than to listen to stupid people.
Sridhar

re:#2 by tenaliramanna
I have said it before, this is a Pakistani woman in an Indian body. That is why Pakistanis love her so much.
Sridhar

re:#23 by ssdhillon
The problem with Islam today is not the religion itself but the fact that people like Shahi Imam have become self-appointed guardians of Islam. Muslims have not proteseted his statements, some of which were clearly anti-national. There is a rebellious stream in every muslim in India and hindus are wary of this.
You do not find Shankaracharyas telling Hindus how to conduct themselves. They do not have any political following, only religious. This is the strength of Hinduism. Muslims in India have disappointed me. I thought they are different. I do not see them being incarcerated in Guntanama Bay like their Paki brothers are. But, they still talk the same language. They protest in support of Palestenians or Serbs. They think they are a part of muslim ummah, a nebulous concept at best.
Sridhar

re: this SH!TTY article
Farzana Vershey is a frikking moron with little knowledge of what the Hindu mind is thinking. My blood is really boiling at this article. Is this the face of an Indian muslim educated woman?
Read the following:
``If the majority community wants peace, then they should respect the rights enshrined in the Constitution that have been created for the protection of the minorities.``
There was a time i supported the so called secular agenda and saw in Hindutva a challenge to this agenda. Not anymore. This is now just a powerstruggle between Hindus who want to construct a temple at one of the most sacred sites for Hindus and the rest of pseudosecularists who want to deny them this.
Why do the muslims not respect the religious feeling of hindus and allow this temple to be built? what are they going to lose?
Let not this stupid writer forget that minorities are at the mercy of the majorities in any country. In USA, we Indians never forget that and try to assimilate. In India, muslims have not tried to assimilate in the last 50 years. The country was partitioned only for the muslims. The Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists etc did not demand another country. So, muslims in India are in a different category, whether they like it or not. They have their rights enshrined in constitution because our forefathers were great and they foresaw something like this will happen. However, these are just laws on a piece of paper. If muslims in India antagonise hindus, no law of land will protect them. So, i suggest that this pathetic writer spend time educating muslims to forge alliances everywhere, send their children to school with hindus, learn about the hindu culture etc.
Hindus revere SriRam. I, living in US, would like to see a temple come up in Ayodhya but not on the blood of muslims. This is against hindu ethos. Muslim rulers in the past have destroyed hundreds of temples in India and no muslim has ever said ``we are sorry for what happened``. Muslims in India cannot expect sympathy with their cause if they do not respect the sentiments of millions of Hindus.

While building a temple in Ayodhya touches an emotional chord among all hindus (i personally do not care and i have said so in the past), building a temple at exactly the same site as a mosque in Ayodhya is a political gimmick. If muslims realise this, there are only 2 options:
1. Tell the hindu zealots that they will be happy to see a temple come up in Ayodhya and muslims will even help in the matter. This will settle matters once for all and create a fund of goodwill that will sweep away the votes that hindu fundamentalists are hoping to get out of all this.
2. Tell the hindu zealots that no temple can be built here because a mosque exists here and that they have rights enshrined in the constitution that protects them.
The second option is what the muslims in India have opted for. It is legal but it antagonises the whole community. It creates the impression the muslims do not respect hindu religion. Then, the zealots ask, what are they doing in India? Was not Pakistan created for such people?
The first option is the best.

``If the majority community wants to make an animal its mother, go ahead, but most Muslims are perfectly happy with their own mothers. (The PM of a large country with such diversity goes on record to say, “I would prefer to die rather than eat beef.”)``
The author needs to understand why Cow is sacred to religious Hindus. I emphasise the word religious because really, no educated Indian in today`s day and age sheds tears on the pathetic state of the Indian cow. Cows are in abundance in India and are not cared after, mostly because India is poor and is hardly able to care for its poor citizens and has little resources to spend on the Holy Cow.
Still, the author should research into ``why the Cow is so holy to the hindus`` and stirs an emotional chord among its religious sections. The old seer (the late Shankraracharya of Kamakoti, also known to Tamilians simply as ``the Kanchi Seer``) often spoke of Cow as Holy. Most hindus do not eat beef for this very reason. This is not a gimmick. Muslims, living side by side with hindus, need to understand why this is so. Criticising it will not be helpful.


``It is strange that there has been little protest against the High Court verdict that the site must be dug up by the Archeological Survey of India.``
What is there to protest? There is a deadlock on both sides. No solution is in sight. May be, if ASI can shed lights on what really lies beneath the so called site of SriRam temple, we may come to a rational conclusion and settle this thing amicably.



``There are 163 million of us. And instead of waiting in the sidelines only to be told that we have been taught a lesson and should now toe the line to live peacefully in a land we are contributing to, must we not take the plunge and be ready to dig our own political graves? Dissent is not anyone’s personal fiefdom.``
This author now sounds like the Shahi Imam of Jama Masjid who recently advised the muslims to form their own political party. The writer should seriously find out how to solve problems of the muslim minority within the context of existing laws and prevailing conditions (where Hindutva elements are on the rise` thanks to lack of leadership among muslims and secular parties) rather than go on a whining mode again and again. I, for one, am really fed up of this kind of writing.

Sridhar

Farzana,
another very interesting piece of writing.

Muslims in India are very large in number and have the swing vote

in elections in a number of states.

India is playing with fire in Ayodhya and Gujrat.

Those that seek the light of wisdom in the night by burning their own

house will not find it.


Ras

This is not about religion. This is not even about grievances. This is absolute gibberish. Farzana, whatever were you on while writing this piece? I`d love to try it out too.

..... i think this is good ...... i did not read the article because i don`t give a flip about indian muslims or babri masjid or the imam of delhi - but it smells good ......... it is good because it tells me there are 165 potential trouble makers in india who can make life more miserable for the miserable hindoos ...... i don`t know why i don`t like the hindoos - there is just something about them ........ they are different and some people say they eat heeng and smell bad and don`t wash up after going to the loo .........they are the enemy, because if they arn`t, then who is ?..........they are the other ............ but i am afraid these indian muslims might make trouble for us like those smelly afghans and chechens and palestinians and arabs.......... pakis have this habit of trying to adopt anything that calls itself a muslim ......... what about locusts who fly over from morocco? .............

............ i just don`t want to hear about the plight of muslims in india........ we have 140 million of them in pakistan and have a hard time feeding them and keeping them from peeing in the streets ........ we don`t want to know about what they are doing in the streets of bombay and chandralaguptamapura .............enough! ..... this stuff gives me a headache ......... what about those redwings and the market was up 269 points today and spring is around the corner ............ i think chicago is going to sweep the oscars and renee is so cute ............ zeta is fat - the indian muslims can have her ............

Farzana baybeh(Bibi)

It is high time you applied for Pakistani citizenship. Home is where the heart is.
But, once you become a Pakistani citizen what would you write about?? It would curb your highly creative instincts as you would then be living in a `pure land`, `an ideal country` of Pakistan which is devoid of any flaws, where there is no racism, where people of different religions walk and eat, hand in hand. In a society which is so perfect you would have no material for your criticisms. So bibi, better stay in India and keep spitting venom.

But then ..maybe the perfect Pakis of the.. oh so perfect Pakiland will make you their Prime minister..you never know. Try it..

#32 by rsridhar on March 13, 2003 8:32pm PT
re:#2 by tenaliramanna
I have said it before, this is a Pakistani woman in an Indian body. That is why Pakistanis love her so much.

Hey, it`s not our fault your women love Pakistani guys so much.
In my university most of the Indian girls go out w/Paki guys,
they tell us that Indian guys are no fun plus they are not good looking
like the Pakistani guys.

hamidm 2 # 39

``and don`t wash up after going to the loo .........``
Objection me lord!
This is not true. Actually, I have heard as well as seen that the Pure Ones don`t wash their hands with soap after cleaning their .... in the loo. And they use same lota for cleaning .... in the toilet as well as for washing their faces. Yuck!

Ref Sudalaikkannu #24

[Farzana, I`m not sure what exactly you`re advocating that muslims do. I do agree with you that the decision by the lucknow HC is biased & bad. It shifts the standards to some historical proof.]

You are darn tooting that it is bad to ask for historical proof. That would then demonstrate that the Qutb Minar was built by destroying 27 Jain and Hindu temples and there might be a demand to pull down the Qutb Minar.

Further, it would also remove Maasanamuthu`s claim for preferential admission to professional education. But Maasanamuthu already has got his degree. He wants to now ensure his daughter Love Queen gets preferential admission too and that this process should continue forever. The fact that not a single Dalit has gotten any advantage from the quota system is all the more to Maasanamuthu`s advantage. He doesn`t want any truth interfering with this.

[By this standard, we should take away land granted to harimau`s great great grand father by some 2-bit raja - land denied to the peasant working it. We should may be return all the land to the adivasis.]

The only problem for you is that my family has NEVER owned any land. I haven`t got a clue how to raise any crop nor how to manage the pallans and paraiyans who till the land. On the other hand, your kind of murderous thieves take it out on the Dalits on a daily basis in Tamil Nadu. As to the REAL owners of the land, it is only the pallans and paraiyans because every single caste in Tamil Nadu, despite naming their children Tamil Mani or Tamil King, speaks broken Telugu or Kannada at home or claim provenance from some other part of India.

PS. Have you completed the 108 worshipful names for Goddess Khushbambika? Have you finished translating into English the movie song ``Ottakattha kattikko``? All of your folks in Tamil Nadu are waiting for the former and the entire readership of Chowk is awaiting the latter to learn about the true level of depravity to which people of your ilk have sunk.

Dear HamidM #39, have you ever considered the possibility that maybe you don`t like Hindoos because maybe you were not very long ago a Hindoo? Maybe you ARE a Hindoo but just didn``t know it? This is a very logical question, by the way. Since I am a Hindoo I do confirm that very often Hindoos do not like other Hindoos and call them non-Hindoos.

Now about those locusts from Morocco, do you like French food, new cuisine?

Also, I think Catherine Zeta Jones is cute because she is a vegetarian, now that will take some figuring out.

warm regards/Veeresh

Ref Urstruly #8

[This article is an excellent write up on various accounts. First of all it is the writer herself. Speaking the word of truth, when one is the member of a minority community, in a country where state apparatus is used for genocide of minorities, without impunity, in the living daylights, in front of whole world, is a feat itself; a feat that probably only prophets, Socrates, and Mansur Hallaj can muster.]

Would that happen to include Prophet Muhammad himself?

Ref Urstruly #3

[Excellent write up Farzana.

Sad as it is, but I see no hope for Muslims in India. At present, their best bet to stay alive is by arming themselves. On the political front, they must forge alliances with Dalits and Shudras and other oppressed communities.]

As for an alliance with Dalits and Shudras and other oppressed communities, may I refer you to Sangilikkaruppan who has appeared on the scene after a lapse of a couple of months? He will be able to give you pointers on how to exploit all these peoples AND the Muslims of India so that both of you can make money off the misery of others.

things are going to be ok. baseball is around the corner. something tells me that red sox are going to do it this year.

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PS: Those ``fed up with this kind of whining`` were not dragged here or even specially invited. But then, how else can they hit below the belt? What `untruths` can they argue against in pure clinical terms? None. So they talk about a woman`s sexual frustrations for speaking our her mind. By this logic, the PM, DPM, Modi, Savarkar, Singhal, Togadia, Jaitley, Shourie are all sexually frustrated. At least i don`t rule the country; they do. And this is your pick. Sick!

Some more…

(#10):
[The constitution of India also requires a common civil code..Don`t see a lot of ``minorities`` fighting for that]

What stops the government from tabling it in Parliament? As for the criminal laws, the minorities routinely get arrested under POTA anyway!

[(The PM of a large country with such diversity goes on record to say, “I would prefer to die rather than eat beef”)
++
Those are his personal beliefs. Liberals have a problem with freedom of speech when the speech isn`t in line with their
thinking..]

If he wants to express his personal beliefs, he can tell that to his friends. He is speaking publicly as the PM and responding to accusations in that capacity.

[And a death penalty for cow slaughter?
++
No such thing has been proposed by the NDA...please don’t tell me what the VHP/BD says and extrapolate it to the agenda of the NDA.
You are no different from the hindu nuts who point out crackers bursting in Mahim when Pakistan wins and then extrapolating it to question the loyalties of the muslim community.]

The last bit is really sweet…but everyone knows that what the VHP/BD say today, the NDA does tomorrow.

[Or until they have convinced us that the country is secular only because it has a Hindu majority?
++
That is true...name a single muslim country that is secular..or has any semblance of democracy for that matter..]

My full quote was: “Or until they have convinced us that the country is secular only because it has a Hindu majority? India is perhaps the only secular democracy that has to reiterate that it is a Hindu majority state. And it has nothing to do with the ancient history of Hindu civilisation, but the less than 80-year existence of Hindutva.” The countries that call themselves ‘Muslim’ or ‘Islamic’ do not put up a pretence.

I have mentioned ‘majority community’ not because I wanted to skirt the issue; everyone knows who the majority is and I have not shied away from using the term Hindu several times. If people need an “interesting spin”, they should find it within themselves.

And for those asking me/welcoming me to Pakistan, I know where I want to go and when. You stay in your foreign lands. As for one more mouth to feed this mohajir, lady, first get back to your own country and then worry about the mouths to feed. Besides, I would be able to feed a few of you…as far as I can tell from the prevailing Indian opinion here, there would be some who would be eating out of the palm of my hands.

Stuka (#13)

Will you ask the government of India for solutions that are in keeping with the spirit of the Constitution? Why is it that I have to have the answers, when I am always asking questions? You are right when you say, “Yes, there are 163 million
Muslims. So what? Do they have the exact same political needs?” No, they don’t. But there is always a blueprint on which most will be agreed on. A political identity based on religion would be counter-productive, but if that religion is thrust down your throat, do you have a choice? Besides, what direction do the 800 million Hindus have except for the resurgence of the fundamentalist parties?

On a personal note, your post on the unplugged board is revealing: when I say something positive about India, no one responds. It does not make political sense to do so.

Pakfin(#7):
[Once the Muslims disown the mullahs and look towards the liberal intelligentsia for leadership, there may be some
hope left for progress.]

In India the mullahs do not play a leadership role, like the shankaracharyas do. At the site of the digging you had suited -booted members of the Waqf board and Babri Masjid Action Committee, not some pandits whipping up emotions. As for liberal intelligentsia, most common Muslims cannot relate to their double talk. Progress can come when these people mobilise themselves, and there are a few mohalla committees that are trying to do so.

Urstruly (#3):
[On the political front, they must forge alliances with Dalits and Shudras and other oppressed communities.]

Everyone is out to save their own ass. Some prominent dalit leaders are forging alliances with the Shiv Sena. We do not have Dr. Ambedkar’s followers now…the Namdeo Dhasals and Ramdas Athavales are opportunists. And even in Gujarat the saffron parties did try to make it into a Dalit vs. Muslim fight.

Everytime, I think I will know how to handle the opinions (if mine expressed in an article are unsolicited, so are those of some readers who offer no plausible arguments), something new comes up. This time it is whether an interactor can call my piece excellent. Veeresh, you bait urstruly with a, “could you please explain to me what is excellent about this write-up? Is it excellent as an individual`s opinion, or is it excellent on verified facts?” When he does give his version primarily about my opinion (something he need not have done for he is entitled to his views), you bait him further: “what in Farzana`s article, specifically, is excellent? Her facts are not correct, so what else could be excellent?” There are many people who admire, empathise with a writer for their opinions, and I have not seen other interactors get so persistent with this line of questioning. And knowing urstruly’s penchant for going into overdrive, this was just what everyone needed. (Have read 18 replies.)

In your exhaustive post, you have not thrown up any facts that can dispute what I have stated. So I think it is unfair to spread a canard that I have not put forth the facts; you may have a dispute with my opinions and my way of putting them across. But please point out where I have misled with wrong facts. This is extremely important.

I shall take some of the points you have mentioned:
1. The Ayodhya/Kashmir comparison has been explained in the first sentence. Do not twist it with statistics; I was clear about what I was saying. “Ayodhya is likely to become another Kashmir – a nice little plaything for the Hindutva parties to preserve their vote bank and to blame the ‘foreign hand’.”
2. The cow: This is more than symbolism. Getting laws to be passed on cow slaughter (death penalty), making it a national animal, and fighting elections on the strength of these factors? Do you equate this with the other examples?
3. Shouts of ‘Jai siyaram’: this was mentioned in the context of my point about religion vs. nationalism in the specific instance of Gujarat.
4. I do have a problem with Muslims displaying the national flag ‘specifically’ to prove a point. This is not something they have done traditionally. Besides, how many Hindus are doing so during their religious festivals? How many organised maha-aartis during the Indo-Pak match? Sporting multi-religious symbols on autos/taxis are, as you said in your point no. 2, mere symbols, right? It is like displaying pictures of film stars. And I do think your reference to the Armed Forces in this context is unfortunate. That has nothing to do with symbolism. Please refrain from making such mischievous insinuations.
5. Sai Baba vs. Imam Bukhari: You know if Muslims were so free, why would a newspaper ask me to ‘go slow’ when I wrote about the Baba? Ok, leave that aside, Sai Baba can manage all this because of the funds, mainly foreign funds and those from rich industrialists; no one sponsors the Imam, which in itself is a very telling statement. I have incidentally been to Baba’s ashram, so there is no question of being mis-informed. Besides, the accusations regarding certain horrible events, when they got too much, had to be reported in the papers. They are all there.
6. As for me being unable to take you to the Jama Masjid, I have escorted an Italian male and at another time a clean-
shaven Tamilian friend, who looks every inch a Hindu South Indian. And we took pictures there. So, what are you
talking about?
7. I have always maintained that Muslims do not have the right leadership, but I do not like the idea of the majority
community telling us who to choose as our leaders. It is ridiculous to assume that more of them are terrorised by the ‘mai-baaps’ from their own community than the larger malaise of our society. Regarding ‘Muslim fiefdoms’ in certain areas, of course they exist – the gangs, the smuggling rackets and yes even within the Shiv Sena (terrorised by Balasaheb). But as we have been told only early this month, even the dreaded D-gang has top police officers, a couple of ministers and bureaucrats on its payroll. Why will this revelation die a silent death whereas the ‘criminals’ are given a chase? And if you insist on making this too into a ‘Muslim’ issue, then let us talk about Chhota Rajan who was hailed as a Hindu fighter because he broke away from Dawood after the bomb blasts.

I do have an argument against Muslims being forced to behave in a silly fashion to prove their credentials. I got a call from the TOI on the day of the match at around 8 pm. “What do you think about all these things, the namaaz, the painted faces?” One, why was my opinion solicited? Two, why did those Raza Academy people not do these things during the other matches India played?

It is easy for you to refer to these things as a “bump”, but please understand it is not going to end. This is not how things “evolve”. This is how things die.

#49 by hrrehman on March 13, 2003 11:18pm PT

Are you saying that Paki girls are so shitty that your guys have to look for Indian girls to go out with?

#53 by FarzanaVersey on March 14, 2003 0:03am PT
``PS: Those ``fed up with this kind of whining`` were not dragged here or even specially invited. But then, how else can they hit below the belt? What `untruths` can they argue against in pure clinical terms? None. So they talk about a woman`s sexual frustrations for speaking our her mind. By this logic, the PM, DPM, Modi, Savarkar, Singhal, Togadia, Jaitley, Shourie are all sexually frustrated. At least i don`t rule the country; they do. And this is your pick. Sick! ``

Well I guess we have to do a profiling of ``feminists`` to figure out their sexual status.

Farzana, you took the frustration bait that was thrown at you.

Hmmm

...you want to know how we sometimes feel? Well this is how we sometimes feel. Not how we think, not what we base our opinions on, not conclusions we reach after sitting up at night thinking about pros and cons...but how we sometimes feel, some of un-censored questions we sometimes ask.

Of course if you don`t want to know, that`s another matter. If you would be more comfortable if we felt differently, I`m sure that`s understandable - but hissing and booing will only shut us up sometimes. It won`t change how we sometimes feel.

Go on. Ask. WHY?

Then sit for five minutes, and the answer will come to you because...because....because...we really are not that different from you, in fact we are quite similar.

How do you like them apples?

Farzana:

``On a personal note, your post on the unplugged board is revealing: when I say something positive about India, no one responds. It does not make political sense to do so. ``

LOL. I don`t think it`s about political sense. I think it`s about making a lot of Chowkies feeling foolish. After all if they have types reams on your Pakistani identity, then your saying something positive leaves them with nothing to stand on.


``Will you ask the government of India for solutions that are in keeping with the spirit of the Constitution? ``

Yes. I think a Law and Order approach is best if uniformly applied. In India however, lawbreakers become lawmakers.


``what direction do the 800 million Hindus have except for the resurgence of the fundamentalist parties? ``

None at all, except in a completely reactionary sense. But that is my whole point. Hindu fundamentalism if you want to call it that (i prefer Hindu communalism) exists as a reaction. It has no basis in faith. Ironically ``Islam khatrey mey`` has resulted in a situation where more``mussulmaan khatrey mey`` then ever before.

While you blame the government and talk about playing by the constitution, what I find more alarming about India is the radicalization of the average Hindu. Living as a minority in the states the radicalization of white Americans would be far more terrifying compared to government shenannigans to get polictical mileage.

Faisaluno:

``things are going to be ok. baseball is around the corner. something tells me that red sox are going to do it this year. ``

Tumharey Muh mey ghee shakkar. Are you from Boston my man?

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There are indisputably some very serious points here. I suggest everyone take them seriously before reacting.

Dr Shridhar,

I agree with most of your opinions.

I do have a major pique about my ``dietary restrictions`` in Hinduism....among other assorted million bs & cowsh*t crapola in my religion.

Hinduism is the PERFECT buffet religion. You eat what you like & ignore the rest. If another hindu doesnt like what I eat, I can, with great authority & lack of fear, say ``screw you; who f*cking died & made YOU a Prophet Or God?!`` Heck, my feminazi wife & daughter have made an ``informed decision`` to pray ONLY to female Godesses:!))

So if I love to eat beef or only non-vegeterian food, despite being a brahmin, I have the RIGHT to eat it---whether I`m in India or anywhere else in the world. Pray tell me , who the F*CK has the right to ``excommunicate`` me from my religion?! If any bhatji or pujari or RSS F*CK gives a ``fatwa`` that I`m not a ``true`` hindu---I`ll fatwa his butt! So, if I have a right to eat it, every other community has the right to eat it!

Hey! if it offends ``your`` sensibilities, I`m sorry! I`m not coming to YOUR house & eating beef, am I? Who the F*CK is the RSS or BJP to tell us what we should eat & what we should NOT eat?!! Ban cow ``slaughter``, because it offends most Hindus?! Anybody who espouses such a law better eat sh*t & die, as far as I`m concerned!

What happens tomorrow if some ``purer`` & ``truer`` Hindu in power starts espousing the virtues of vegeterian food? Will they then pursue a law to ban ``chicken & goat`` slaughter?! How about banning ``egg`` slaughter because some of my Gujju friends would cringe & say ``ssss...paaap lagega!!``?!

Let me make it a little crazier..what if there is a ``Morarji Desai``-like PM, who believes in drinking his own urine; first thing in the morning?! You know, when its most concentrated, full of glucose, ketones, yesterdays marijuana & other assorted ``crap``...You know, Indian politicians are WORLD FAMOUS for giving scientific opinions on just about everything...except that they hardly seem to know anything about running a frikking country!

Do you think there will be a lobby in ``pure`` Hindu political circles; sometime in India`s Hindutva future, that will push for laws about marketting urine?! They are already espousing the virtues of cow urine! Wow, lets run an ad campaign to bottle cow urine. Heck we could even convince the Coca Cola company to add a ``dab`` of cow-pee in Coke to increase market share in India!

When you talk about ``religious`` sensibilities of the majority; you go down a VERY VERY slippery slope, my friend:)

As a fellow brahmin & physician (though janitorial), I admire & applaud your wisdom, opinion & knowledge in MOST areas...(let it NOT be said, henceforth, that I kiss ONLY muslim butt)....I admit it; Tamilians are some of the most intelligent people on earth. However, even in the midst of all that intelligence, there arises a ``weed of idiocy`` in the form of that Tamilian Harimou...``Hinduism ka mashoor pehelwan!!``. Like most of his Hindutva cohorts, he believes an early morning erection is due to pressure from a full bladder--that impinges on nerves--that makes the muscles in the penis contract (you know, according to him, penile anatomy is full of skeletal muscles).

See, if he sticks to Bharat Natyam, he knows what he`s talking about (I THINK!)..But like all these Hindu politicians, he gives idiotic opinions about every other subject, that he knows nether s*it nor shinola about...

Sigh...its because of Hindus like these that I want to become a Parsi....

hamidm: YOu write ``Zeta is fat``. This is too much!! Is nothing sacred anymore. Having bitten the hand that fed you as a child (Pakistan), having ranted about the orrible indoos, you now dare raise your poison pen against that Catherine Zeta Jones of the cutest smile. As Zeta`s great granduncles would have said: Zounds man.

#s 53, 52 by FarzanaVersey

[Those ``fed up with this kind of whining`` were not dragged here or even specially invited.]

Excuse me...if you have the right to rant, then expect others to differ as well. This is not your `baap ka raj`.

[As for the criminal laws, the minorities routinely get arrested under POTA anyway!]

Instead of leveling absurd charges, could you please provide us with figures? That would be more revealing than paragraphs after paragraphs of the same meaningless crap. If you can`t, you had better shut up.

[If he wants to express his personal beliefs, he can tell that to his friends. He is speaking publicly as the PM and responding to accusations in that capacity.]

Is it illegal to say that in public? In a country where people get away with professing their loyalty to an enemy country, I think this is after all, a non-issue.

[but everyone knows that what the VHP/BD say today, the NDA does tomorrow.]

Again, you are leveling allegations without making any effort whatsoever to back them up with facts and figures.

[India is perhaps the only secular democracy that has to reiterate that it is a Hindu majority state]

That`s perhaps because there are very few secular democracies in the first place.

Re:#8 By Urstruly

Urstruly writes:
``You ungrateful Indians should be thankful to your bhagwans, that they have blessed you with a living conscience named Farzana.``

Maybe, you are too grateful to your ullah? Please ask him to take you away. Leave earth for some endangered species.

Satire

Ref FarzanaVersey #53

[So they talk about a woman`s sexual frustrations for speaking our her mind. By this logic, the PM, DPM, Modi, Savarkar, Singhal, Togadia, Jaitley, Shourie are all sexually frustrated.]

The usual expression in the US is that they are men with small penises. You might want to use that.

You are welcome.

Re: #50 By Farzana Versey

Farzana writes : ``I have always maintained that Muslims do not have the right leadership, but I do not like the idea of the majority
community telling us who to choose as our leaders.``

...


``And I do think your reference to the Armed Forces in this context is unfortunate. That has nothing to do with symbolism. Please refrain from making such mischievous insinuations``

...

``None. So they talk about a woman`s sexual frustrations for speaking our her mind.``


Well, Farzana how the heck did you get the right to tell the hindus who to choose for their leaders then? Double standards?

And, Veeresh why did you say anything that Farzana may term as ``unfortunate``. Don`t you know only SHE is allowed to voice her opinions. Only, she is allowed to insinuate, make fun of, and ridicule.

Well, Farzana, I find your remarks, about Veeresh`s remarks being unfortunate, as being unfortunate. There is nothing wrong with them. Please refrain from making such mischievous insinuations.

Ohh, and the sexual frustration part! I recall an old article where someone describes the kumbh mela as a testostorone driven madness. I don`t know whose reply this was geared to (wasn`t referenced, can`t read em all) but I guess you seem to have a copyright in describing the sexual state of someone as well.

Satire

Farzana ji:-

a) I will request you to please ignore the sexual innuendos and the Paki/Mohajir references as one of the accepted perils of being at chowk.

b) I will request those prodding and reacting to these sexual/religious/geographical etc. innuendos to please consider the simple fact that every time we do so, we continue to play into the hands of those who would love to see us remain backward. As one mail said, we would rather worry about feeding people and trying to stop them from peeing in the streets.

c) Farzana is one of the few people here with the guts to write under her own name. Salute that, to start with, is that asking for too much?

d) Farzana, my insistence on asking Urstuly for his exact position was because I really think that your style and syntax and skills are excellent. But this article, I think, the facts were incorrect. And here is why I think you are off on facts . . . to start with Kashmir was never any sort of effort on anybody`s part to consolidate a Hindu votebank, so any comparision with Ayodhya would be off. If anything, Babri/Ayodhya is a joint venture programme by both Hindu & Muslim ``leadership`` to try to fix votebanks.

e) You are talking about Muslims in India as though they are one strong homogeneous motive force. That is untrue. That is so untrue, but then it is also one of those canards spread so often that people believe it. Psephology is an art not unknown to me, and ``Muslim vote bank``, what is this term, go anywhere near the lower middle class line, and the vote bank is directly related to money as well as booth capturing, and we all know that, long live democracy.

f) You are objecting to the visible efforts of the mass of a community to take advantage of what their Nation offers them, and one of those options is to fly the flag in celebration. That is something I have observed with the lah-di-dah chattering class variety Muslims in India lately, they are really getting worried that garden variety small town lower middle class Muslims in India are simply improving their lot. It has taken us as Indians over 5 decades for the right to fly the flag, as you are aware (thanks to Navin Jindal and his persistence) and I am sorry, I take strong objection to people telling me I cannot fly it or in any other way propagate it. And my reference to the Armed Forces and Muslim participation there is not mischievious, it is a simple fact that across the board better soldiers and officers are coming from ``different`` stratas of life lately, including Muslims, and that again upsets Muslim nobility in India. It is my finding based on actual ground level research that vast numbers of Muslims of both genders in India, especially women, are coming forward to be part of an evolving ``open`` National identity, and that is really REALLY hurting the male dominated so-called Muslim leadership. Why you, Farzana, seem to be falling for this I cannot figure out. That is why I was quizzing Urstruly, if you can appreciate the logic?

g) Why do we keep taking the specific instance of Gujarat only? Why not the 999 unreported flashpoints which got resolved? Because when something gets resolved, it does not make good copy.

h) Magazines and newspapers have put Sai Baba`s little tricks on their front covers, so if one newspaper asked you to go slow,what can anybody say, does it symbolise anything? My question remains unanswered here, though:- compare the general good for society that the Imam Bukhari has done versus Sai Baba? No contest, and you know it, and frankly I don`t particularly care for either of them, OK, but the truth is the truth.

i) It is not possible to pass a law asking for death for cow slaughter in India, just as it is not possible to pass a law asking somebody to stop asking for such a law. Meanwhile, beef is available on the menu in many parts of the country where people want to eat it, and good luck to them.

j) Multi-religious symbols on public locations by the ``lower middle class`` is/are an excellent way of telling the erstwhile nabobs that they are not going to get fooled anymore. The burqa wearing at home but jeans and shirt while in transit and at work perfect English speaking daughter (of an uneducated Muslim taxi driver) working at a call centre is similar, esepcially when she also wears tricolour bangles because so did Mandira Bedi.

k) Climbing the stairs and reaching the first hall in the Jama Masjid, the tourist circuit, anybody can do that. Will you be able to go further, beyond the point that says ``no ladies permitted``?

l) Why do emotions reach fever pitch during India-Pakistan matches (and not during the India-NZ one being played out as I type this)? How do I know, how do I care, it feels good, that`s all. Again, the Muslim upper class in India want to deny their followers the option of feeling good?

m) How things evolve I have seen with the assimilation by democracy in Nagaland, in my own family, within two generations. And I will see that happen in India within the next two, also, and you know what, Farzana, I got a good bet waiting to be taken with you that this one will come from the Muslim women in India who are NOT from the lah-di-dah chi-chi class.

And for that, if you bring up stuff like tri-colours, Ayodhya/Babri or Kashmir to try to rally them, I think, boss, you got to come to visit some of the nurse training colleges and see the increasing number of Muslim girls there as a symbol that the old-money no-work educated Muslims in India have had their run, many of the new ones aren`t bothered about being dragged like sheep anymore.

You want to object to Muslims flying the flag, you do so, it is a free country. My truth is that inspite of bombs in Bombay on the day before Muharam, there is peace and quiet. Beat that?

RE: #8 by Urstruly

Urstruly writes:
``This article is an excellent write up on various accounts. First of all it is the writer herself. Speaking the word of truth, when one is the member of a minority community, in a country where state apparatus is used for genocide of minorities, without impunity, in the living daylights, in front of whole world, is a feat itself; a feat that probably only prophets, Socrates, and Mansur Hallaj can muster``


Hmmn, from your reply one would think Farzana Versey is a hindu minority stuck in Pakistan. But ofcourse, she isn`t there, not only would she be oppressed, she would have no voice.

Satire

...this just in...zaheer khan has agreed to pay for farceanna`s ticket to lahore...if she prefers to fly biniss class, kaif has agreed to pay the difference...

...come on farcey, even indian muslims don`t want you there...you know it is true...

...it must be burning up the author to see mohammad kaif take india to victory today...i wonder how he would feel knowing that there are people like her spreading poison in the country and asking muslims to cheer for opponents...

Ref arjun_m #67

Youu quoted our Impacted Wisdom Tooth

[If he wants to express his personal beliefs, he can tell that to his friends. He is speaking publicly as the PM and responding to accusations in that capacity.]

and replied

[Nope..The PM has every right to air his personal opinions on his culinary preferences...the same way dubya has every right to say in public that he is guided by jesus..]

This is FartsAnna`s usual trick of quoting partially or without specifying the context. Vajpayee was publicly accused by some Congresswallah as one who eats beef and his spokesman replied that Vajpayee would die before eating beef. So this was NOT an instance of Vajpayee dredging up cow slaughter to get at Muslims. But that is not the way our wise friend sees it. And our resident Mullahs lap it up and praise FartsAnna as the Conscience of India.

In fact, the BJP spokesman went on to ask if Sonia Gandhi had stopped eating beef.

It must be really hard for folks like FartsAnna that I am sitting in India and reading the newspapers` print editions and so can refute her as opposed to reading summaries on the web like you guys are forced to.

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hamidm,

{{i don`t know why i don`t like the hindoos - there is just something about them ........ they are different and some people say they eat heeng and smell bad and don`t wash up after going to the loo }}

yeah yeah...the people who say that are the people who have a bath only on fridays & use a stone in place of toilet tissue;

the hindoo way--a good WASH of the anal area after a dump with the left hand; then we WASH our left hand with liberal amounts of soap & water & eat ONLY with the right hand. Jezus Christ ..it took me a loooong time to get used to toilet tissue!! A good wash sure as heck beats any..er..``dry cleaning`` method of this shameless , dirty Judeo-Christian Western culture.

well ok; some of our darker bretheren from the deeeep South use the whole right palm to squish sambar rice through their fingers & roll it into a ball before they toss it in their mouths. But c`maaan...nobody`s perfect you know. They just have bad table manners cos they descended from a race called rakshas...but lemme tell you; there is no shortage of good rakshas` in hindu mythology...

Aw shucks, why do i waste my time explaining horrible hindoo culture to a muslim lush like you?!....like you give a rip...ESP when happy hour started 20 mins ago!!

re:#64 by shankar
There are millions of Hindus in India who think Cow is holy. I do not but i do not eat beef out of old habit. You do not either but you say you do eat beef. That is your dietary habit. I have no problems with that. All this still does not change the fact that millions in India consider cow holy. BJP and VHP etc are only taking advantage of an emotional issue.
Sridhar

//...If the majority community wants peace, then they should respect the rights enshrined in the Constitution ...//

I am wondering what`s the difference between Shiv Sena and FarzAna. Shiv Sena issues threats against muslims – allegation is that they don`t ‘assimilate’ into the `mainstream`. FarzAna issues threats against hindus – allegation is that they don`t `respect` the minority rights of the Constitution.

As if to take cue from her words - SIMI bombs a train in Mumbai (according to a timesofindia report), a day after the anniversary of 1993 serial bomb last the rocked the city. Six other bombs have been found in Delhi Station. Watch out guys - a new breed of ``Constitutionalists`` have arrived!!! They are ready to kill - to enforce the minority rights of the Constitution which have been so badly violated by the majority community.

If Farzana would have her way - there would be no more flag waving from muslims. No more Muslim faces painted with tricolor. Showing off national symbols is for cowards. No more alliances with secular and liberal forces either - they have done nothing for Muslims. Time form alliances with Dawoods and SIMI, time to create mayhem. You will have to take out the peace from the majority community – only then they will give ‘respect’ to minority rights.

I am thankful that the average muslim in the street knows better. He knows very well - the mullahs and elites, the Bukharis and Farzanas among them. He knows that their venom is what Thackerays and Togadias feed on. He knows that when mayhem starts – Bukharis and Farzanas stay safe in their ivory towers.

But he doesn’t have to listen to them. He will wave the flag, paint tricolor on his face. That’s what takes out the fizz from Togadia’s bottle of venom so conveniently handed to them by Bukharis and Farzanas. He will find his way out of the double yoke put on his shoulders by the Hindu Fanatics and Muslim Fanatics. If that means bursting a few crackers if India wins a cricket match, then so be it. After all – it is his team too and the guys who win those matches are more likely to be a Khan or a Kaif or both.

He knows that – seculars and liberals may not have done much for him, but the elites and mullahs have done even less. And often – they are the ones at the root cause of his misery.

farzana

All you do is present a very bad picture of your country to the outside world. It is not so bad you know it. And if their are some fanatic elements in both hindus and muslims of Indai, let us ignore them.

And what objection do you have if Indian muslims express their loyalty towards India, by way of flag. Thsi is our newly given right. Isn`t it their country too?? Some, like Zaheer Khan and Mohemmed Kaif show their love and respect for their country India by playing excellent World cup matches, like the recent one against New Zealand. And during the match against Paksitan, you should have seen the facial expressions of Zaheer every time he bowled, he almost always stared at the opponents. He loves his country and he felt more motivated like this. Can you stop him??

Can you stop our respected president Dr Kalam from loving his country?? He speaks the truth but only to improve his country and not to downgrade the majority or minority...and we all listen to him, don`t we??

Farzana, I am a hindu but my experience with Indian muslims has not been any different from one with Hindus. My teacher was a devout muslim and a very patriotic Indian..and when I left India for foreign lands, he said that he can`t leave Indai ever...he loves his country too much. He said to me`` Apney watan ko chor kar nahi jana chaiye, Hume yahin reh kar isko(India) improve karna chahiye``...How noble...I was touched..I promised him that I will do as much for India as I can.

Farzana, you always try to divide the two communities. They are more closely knit than we ourselves realize.

Re#73
Dr. Shanker on Desi Hygiene:

``A good wash sure as heck beats any..er..``dry cleaning`` method of this shameless , dirty Judeo-Christian Western culture.``

Could that be -- because “this shameless, dirty Judeo-Christian Western culture” – doesn’t LOVE bacillary dysentery and amoebaesis – as much the desis do? –

May be the Western Culture doesn’t like to spend half of its life squatting on two bricks -- having multiple orgasms of tenesmus –

a pleasure that belongs unique to ONLY -- “A good wash sure as heck” :-)

dr. nasah

Reply Veereshbhai

``Why do we keep taking the specific instance of Gujarat only? Why not the 999 unreported flashpoints which got resolved? Because when something gets resolved, it does not make good copy.``

Exception reporting? Also, it`s not so bad a thing to go on about what we want changed, or improved, instead of about what we think is just right. No?

``Again, the Muslim upper class in India want to deny their followers the option of feeling good?``

Vaisai, the Muslim upper class in India has no followers. Good thing too.

General comment: I don`t think anybody objects to people who genuinely express their patriotism by using Indian symbols and national colours. Indian Muslims doing this unapologetically, asserting equal ownership, is a good thing. Indian Muslims doing this in response to ENDLESS comments of ` burst firecrackers when Pakistan wins at cricket` is...less uplifting. (But then, vhy they bursting firecracker in first place onleee, hain?)

Respectfully

Zafar

just a thought......

the sooner that desis get religion (hindu muslim crap) out of their systems, the better.

what`s the big friggin deal guys?

Farzana has written good and bad things about her country.....instead of discussing and analyzing, why do Indian Chowkies pounce on her with fangs and irrelevant insults?

you guys can`t take self criticism? sounds like the `land of the pure` syndrome has transferred itself to India.

very passionately written. i am in no capacity to comment on its correctness (political or otherwise).

I wonder wat is it in the US that enables humans to deal with others on just that level - human. And not allow th religious prejudices interfere in the interactions.

Why can`t we do that in this part of the world? Or let me ask a more useful question, How can we mature to a state where just being human is enough for us to love somebody? We kill people just because they have killed a cow? Or we kill people because they dont want to kill a cow? Dont you think its a little funny?

Green, Safron and white are colors of religion. I think Muslims do not have to live in reaction. Reinventing wgat muslims stand for will a great service to the mankind.

Islam is probably the only religion that does not need a boundary to thrive or bind people together. Its transbordernature will heal the wounds. When reinvented, it will look very much like real secularism???

Paigham # 74, two errors . . . (a) historically Mughals / Muslims were rulers of tracts in India which varied in size from close to nil to part