Observations of an American Expat in Europe
John Doe March 13, 2003
#51 Posted by brooder on August 30, 2005 11:45:09 pm
Re: # 46 Amerika, Amerika uber alles... or death throes? Too much attention toward the puppets; after all, the puppet masters can`t be seen... I know! Bevis and Butthead for Prez and VP... Brittney Spears for Secretary of State...and Ben Affleck can run the opposition...
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#50 Posted by brooder on August 30, 2005 11:23:27 pm
Re: # 40 ...too much faith in perceived notions of `the system`
#49 Posted by brooder on August 30, 2005 11:18:48 pm
Re: # 40 de Facto or de Jure? It`s really quite simple; we can dispense with the formalities and simply ignore the fact that constitutional rights exist... thus maintiaining deniability... a long-standing tradition... ask any southern black over the age of sixty.
#48 Posted by Ali87 on March 29, 2003 6:39:58 am
#41 by Tipu on March 17, 2003 1:47pm PT
Notice not much jumping with indignation on UK arrest of CEO of I-Flex solutions (subsidary of Citicorp India) at the Behest of Holland.
That is reserved for thirdworld countries like Malaysia and Indonesia.
(and being Muslim countries had to do some thing with it?)
Note nobody took up that topic. No one jumped with anger telling that it is commerical dispute etc.
Neither are there angry statements from New Delhi or Nasscom.
In fact no discussion about it on this board at all.
Notice not much jumping with indignation on UK arrest of CEO of I-Flex solutions (subsidary of Citicorp India) at the Behest of Holland.
That is reserved for thirdworld countries like Malaysia and Indonesia.
(and being Muslim countries had to do some thing with it?)
Note nobody took up that topic. No one jumped with anger telling that it is commerical dispute etc.
Neither are there angry statements from New Delhi or Nasscom.
In fact no discussion about it on this board at all.
#47 Posted by nasah on March 17, 2003 10:54:42 pm
When a coke sniffing, binge drinkin, C-graded Nincompoop -- is installed -- by 5 Supreme Court judges – as the president of the most powerful country -- after LOSING -- to its opponent by half a Million votes! –
this is what happens.
The following is the excerpt from today’s indignant and fiery Editorial in the New York Times -- after the president issued his ‘Ultimatum’ to Iraq – giving the viewers the strange sense of de ja vu -- reminiscent of Hitler’s speech -- before the Nazi invasion of Poland in 1939.
Editorial
“ When this administration took office just over two years ago, expectations were different. President Bush was a novice in international affairs, while his father had been a master practitioner.
But the new president looked to have assembled an experienced national security team. It included Colin Powell and Dick Cheney, who had helped build the multinational coalition that fought the first Persian Gulf war. Condoleezza Rice had helped manage a peaceful end for Europe`s cold war divisions. Donald Rumsfeld brought government and international experience stretching back to the Ford administration.
This seasoned team was led by a man who had spoken forcefully as a presidential candidate about the need for the United States to wear its power with humility, to reach out to its allies and not be perceived as a bully. (Liar Lair ur pant is on fire))
But this did not turn out to be a team of steady veterans.
The hubris and mistakes that contributed to America`s current isolation began long before the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
From the administration`s first days, it turned away from internationalism and the concerns of its European allies
by abandoning the Kyoto Protocol on global warming
and withdrawing America`s signature from the treaty establishing the International Criminal Court.
Russia was bluntly told to accept America`s withdrawal from the Antiballistic Missile Treaty and the expansion of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization into the territory of the former Soviet Union.
In the Middle East, Washington shortsightedly stepped backed from the worsening spiral of violence between Israel and the Palestinians, ignoring the pleas of Arab, Muslim and European countries.
If other nations resist American leadership today, part of the reason lies in this unhappy history.....(NYT editorial)
_______________________________________
We do need a ‘regime change’ in our own country – before these buggers turn the United States into a world`s most Petulant Pariah – shunned by most civilized communities..
___________
The Atlantic alliance is now more deeply riven than at any time since its creation more than a half-century ago.
A promising new era of cooperation with a democratizing Russia has been put at risk.
China, whose constructive incorporation into global affairs is crucial to the peace of this century, has been needlessly estranged.
Governments across the Muslim world, whose cooperation is so vital to the war against terrorism, are now warily navigating between popular anger and American power.
The American-sponsored Security Council resolution that was withdrawn yesterday had firm support from only four of the council`s 15 members and was opposed by major European powers like France, Germany and Russia.
Even the few leaders who have stuck with the Bush administration, like Tony Blair of Britain and José María Aznar of Spain, have done so in the face of broad domestic opposition, which has left them and their parties politically damaged.
this is what happens.
The following is the excerpt from today’s indignant and fiery Editorial in the New York Times -- after the president issued his ‘Ultimatum’ to Iraq – giving the viewers the strange sense of de ja vu -- reminiscent of Hitler’s speech -- before the Nazi invasion of Poland in 1939.
Editorial
“ When this administration took office just over two years ago, expectations were different. President Bush was a novice in international affairs, while his father had been a master practitioner.
But the new president looked to have assembled an experienced national security team. It included Colin Powell and Dick Cheney, who had helped build the multinational coalition that fought the first Persian Gulf war. Condoleezza Rice had helped manage a peaceful end for Europe`s cold war divisions. Donald Rumsfeld brought government and international experience stretching back to the Ford administration.
This seasoned team was led by a man who had spoken forcefully as a presidential candidate about the need for the United States to wear its power with humility, to reach out to its allies and not be perceived as a bully. (Liar Lair ur pant is on fire))
But this did not turn out to be a team of steady veterans.
The hubris and mistakes that contributed to America`s current isolation began long before the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
From the administration`s first days, it turned away from internationalism and the concerns of its European allies
by abandoning the Kyoto Protocol on global warming
and withdrawing America`s signature from the treaty establishing the International Criminal Court.
Russia was bluntly told to accept America`s withdrawal from the Antiballistic Missile Treaty and the expansion of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization into the territory of the former Soviet Union.
In the Middle East, Washington shortsightedly stepped backed from the worsening spiral of violence between Israel and the Palestinians, ignoring the pleas of Arab, Muslim and European countries.
If other nations resist American leadership today, part of the reason lies in this unhappy history.....(NYT editorial)
_______________________________________
We do need a ‘regime change’ in our own country – before these buggers turn the United States into a world`s most Petulant Pariah – shunned by most civilized communities..
___________
The Atlantic alliance is now more deeply riven than at any time since its creation more than a half-century ago.
A promising new era of cooperation with a democratizing Russia has been put at risk.
China, whose constructive incorporation into global affairs is crucial to the peace of this century, has been needlessly estranged.
Governments across the Muslim world, whose cooperation is so vital to the war against terrorism, are now warily navigating between popular anger and American power.
The American-sponsored Security Council resolution that was withdrawn yesterday had firm support from only four of the council`s 15 members and was opposed by major European powers like France, Germany and Russia.
Even the few leaders who have stuck with the Bush administration, like Tony Blair of Britain and José María Aznar of Spain, have done so in the face of broad domestic opposition, which has left them and their parties politically damaged.
#46 Posted by nasah on March 17, 2003 10:54:42 pm
When a coke sniffing, binge drinkin, C-graded Nincompoop -- is installed -- by 5 Supreme Court judges – as the president of the most powerful country -- after LOSING -- to its opponent by half a Million votes! –
this is what happens.
The following is the excerpt from today’s indignant and fiery Editorial in the New York Times -- after the president issued his ‘Ultimatum’ to Iraq – giving the viewers the strange sense of de ja vu -- reminiscent of Hitler’s speech -- before the Nazi invasion of Poland in 1939.
Editorial
“ When this administration took office just over two years ago, expectations were different. President Bush was a novice in international affairs, while his father had been a master practitioner.
But the new president looked to have assembled an experienced national security team. It included Colin Powell and Dick Cheney, who had helped build the multinational coalition that fought the first Persian Gulf war. Condoleezza Rice had helped manage a peaceful end for Europe`s cold war divisions. Donald Rumsfeld brought government and international experience stretching back to the Ford administration.
This seasoned team was led by a man who had spoken forcefully as a presidential candidate about the need for the United States to wear its power with humility, to reach out to its allies and not be perceived as a bully. (Liar Lair ur pant is on fire))
But this did not turn out to be a team of steady veterans.
The hubris and mistakes that contributed to America`s current isolation began long before the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
From the administration`s first days, it turned away from internationalism and the concerns of its European allies
by abandoning the Kyoto Protocol on global warming
and withdrawing America`s signature from the treaty establishing the International Criminal Court.
Russia was bluntly told to accept America`s withdrawal from the Antiballistic Missile Treaty and the expansion of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization into the territory of the former Soviet Union.
In the Middle East, Washington shortsightedly stepped backed from the worsening spiral of violence between Israel and the Palestinians, ignoring the pleas of Arab, Muslim and European countries.
If other nations resist American leadership today, part of the reason lies in this unhappy history.
The Atlantic alliance is now more deeply riven than at any time since its creation more than a half-century ago.
A promising new era of cooperation with a democratizing Russia has been put at risk.
China, whose constructive incorporation into global affairs is crucial to the peace of this century, has been needlessly estranged.
Governments across the Muslim world, whose cooperation is so vital to the war against terrorism, are now warily navigating between popular anger and American power.
The American-sponsored Security Council resolution that was withdrawn yesterday had firm support from only four of the council`s 15 members and was opposed by major European powers like France, Germany and Russia.
Even the few leaders who have stuck with the Bush administration, like Tony Blair of Britain and José María Aznar of Spain, have done so in the face of broad domestic opposition, which has left them and their parties politically damaged.....(NYT)
___________________________________
Looks like a bunch of drunken BULLS pooping around in a China shop.
We do need a ‘regime change’ in our own country – before these buggers turn the United States into a world`s most Petulant Pariah – shunned by most civilized communities..
REGIME CHANGE in 2004.
this is what happens.
The following is the excerpt from today’s indignant and fiery Editorial in the New York Times -- after the president issued his ‘Ultimatum’ to Iraq – giving the viewers the strange sense of de ja vu -- reminiscent of Hitler’s speech -- before the Nazi invasion of Poland in 1939.
Editorial
“ When this administration took office just over two years ago, expectations were different. President Bush was a novice in international affairs, while his father had been a master practitioner.
But the new president looked to have assembled an experienced national security team. It included Colin Powell and Dick Cheney, who had helped build the multinational coalition that fought the first Persian Gulf war. Condoleezza Rice had helped manage a peaceful end for Europe`s cold war divisions. Donald Rumsfeld brought government and international experience stretching back to the Ford administration.
This seasoned team was led by a man who had spoken forcefully as a presidential candidate about the need for the United States to wear its power with humility, to reach out to its allies and not be perceived as a bully. (Liar Lair ur pant is on fire))
But this did not turn out to be a team of steady veterans.
The hubris and mistakes that contributed to America`s current isolation began long before the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
From the administration`s first days, it turned away from internationalism and the concerns of its European allies
by abandoning the Kyoto Protocol on global warming
and withdrawing America`s signature from the treaty establishing the International Criminal Court.
Russia was bluntly told to accept America`s withdrawal from the Antiballistic Missile Treaty and the expansion of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization into the territory of the former Soviet Union.
In the Middle East, Washington shortsightedly stepped backed from the worsening spiral of violence between Israel and the Palestinians, ignoring the pleas of Arab, Muslim and European countries.
If other nations resist American leadership today, part of the reason lies in this unhappy history.
The Atlantic alliance is now more deeply riven than at any time since its creation more than a half-century ago.
A promising new era of cooperation with a democratizing Russia has been put at risk.
China, whose constructive incorporation into global affairs is crucial to the peace of this century, has been needlessly estranged.
Governments across the Muslim world, whose cooperation is so vital to the war against terrorism, are now warily navigating between popular anger and American power.
The American-sponsored Security Council resolution that was withdrawn yesterday had firm support from only four of the council`s 15 members and was opposed by major European powers like France, Germany and Russia.
Even the few leaders who have stuck with the Bush administration, like Tony Blair of Britain and José María Aznar of Spain, have done so in the face of broad domestic opposition, which has left them and their parties politically damaged.....(NYT)
___________________________________
Looks like a bunch of drunken BULLS pooping around in a China shop.
We do need a ‘regime change’ in our own country – before these buggers turn the United States into a world`s most Petulant Pariah – shunned by most civilized communities..
REGIME CHANGE in 2004.
#45 Posted by nasah on March 17, 2003 9:29:49 pm
MOTHER OF ALL ULTIMATUMS
so finally the rabbit is out of the hat -- (some say it was there all this time -- diplomacy was just a charade)
The Ultimate Ultimatum Man -- gave 24 hour ultimatum to UN to `disarm` -- 48 hours ultimatum to Saddam & Sons -- to flee --
now some poeple will say that is unfair -- that`s certainly NOT being even-handed...
well the UN did not -- nor does it look like Saddam will -- but then who knows..
seems like -- a Power Drunk Elephant about to attack -- a Malnourished Mouse -- with a quarter million army -- with 3000 precision-guided laser bombs -- daisy cutters -- and 21 thousand pounds MOABS --
all these -- Mothers of all WMD`s -- to disarm Iraq of -- Iraqi `WMD`s -- this JOKER is indeed funny!
indeed Bush with his Munster father`s X genes -- knows -- how to be the Mother of all Monsters -- to disarm another Monster.
certainly -- a big deal -- for the world`s #1Superpower` -- to disarm -- the #2 Superpower of the World -- Iraq
only a Texas Cowardly Clown (who himself fled for 2 days post 9/11)can come up with this -- Disproportionate Mother of All Sick Jokes.
it`s clear -- this man is not only possessed by EVIL -- as Harry Belafonte says -- my President is indeed -- a VERY WEIRD SICK Comedian -- as well.
so finally the rabbit is out of the hat -- (some say it was there all this time -- diplomacy was just a charade)
The Ultimate Ultimatum Man -- gave 24 hour ultimatum to UN to `disarm` -- 48 hours ultimatum to Saddam & Sons -- to flee --
now some poeple will say that is unfair -- that`s certainly NOT being even-handed...
well the UN did not -- nor does it look like Saddam will -- but then who knows..
seems like -- a Power Drunk Elephant about to attack -- a Malnourished Mouse -- with a quarter million army -- with 3000 precision-guided laser bombs -- daisy cutters -- and 21 thousand pounds MOABS --
all these -- Mothers of all WMD`s -- to disarm Iraq of -- Iraqi `WMD`s -- this JOKER is indeed funny!
indeed Bush with his Munster father`s X genes -- knows -- how to be the Mother of all Monsters -- to disarm another Monster.
certainly -- a big deal -- for the world`s #1Superpower` -- to disarm -- the #2 Superpower of the World -- Iraq
only a Texas Cowardly Clown (who himself fled for 2 days post 9/11)can come up with this -- Disproportionate Mother of All Sick Jokes.
it`s clear -- this man is not only possessed by EVIL -- as Harry Belafonte says -- my President is indeed -- a VERY WEIRD SICK Comedian -- as well.
#44 Posted by Tipu on March 17, 2003 1:48:40 pm
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#43 Posted by Tipu on March 17, 2003 1:48:40 pm
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#42 Posted by Tipu on March 17, 2003 1:48:40 pm
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#41 Posted by Tipu on March 17, 2003 1:47:47 pm
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#40 Posted by stuka on March 17, 2003 1:17:42 pm
FerozeK:
I am not from Pakistan
I am not keen on giving up my constitutional rights. As far as I know, I haven`t lost any yet.
Spare me the hyperbole.
Just tell me the specific constitutional rights of American citizens that have supposedly been repealed by the present administration.
Thank you.
I am not from Pakistan
I am not keen on giving up my constitutional rights. As far as I know, I haven`t lost any yet.
Spare me the hyperbole.
Just tell me the specific constitutional rights of American citizens that have supposedly been repealed by the present administration.
Thank you.
#39 Posted by Tipu on March 17, 2003 1:17:42 pm
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#38 Posted by nasah on March 16, 2003 4:06:15 pm
Here the brave woman, Maureen Dowd`s -- of New York Times -- fiercest indictment of -- `our` LIAR President Bush, - `Our Monster`
never in the history of the United States Presidency -- such a characterless man -- and such an unscrupulous LIAR (``I am doing ``everything`` to ``avoid`` war``!) -- came to occupy the highest position of the world’s most powerful country – (albeit by a minority of half a million votes):
Mashing Our Monster
By MAUREEN DOWD
WASHINGTON — Everyone thinks the Bush diplomacy on Iraq is a wreck.
It isn`t.
It`s a success because it was never meant to succeed.
For the hawks, it`s a succès d`estime. (If I may be so gauche as to use a French phrase in a city where federal employees are slapping stickers over the word ``French`` on packets of French dressing and on machines dispensing French vanilla yogurt at the Capitol.
Seeing this made me long for the cold war, when you could eat your Russian dressing in peace and when Jackie Kennedy brought France to heel with élan, brains and charm, rather than scattershot embargos and inane suggestions in the capital L` Enfant planned that we disinter our war dead in France.)
Sure, the Bushies might be feeling a bit rattled right now, with the old international system and the North Atlantic alliance crashing down around their ears.
But you can`t transfigure the world without ticking off the world.
It`s not a simple task, carving new divisions in Europe, just as Europe is moving past the divisions that led to the greatest tragedies of the 20th century.
The Bush hawks never intended to give peace a chance. They intended to give pre-emption a chance.
They never wanted to merely disarm the slimy Saddam. They wanted to dislodge and dispose of him.
The president`s slapped-together Azores summit is not meant to ``go the last mile`` on diplomacy, as Ari Fleischer put it.
If Mr. Bush really wanted to do that, he`d try to persuade some leaders who disagree with him; he`d confront the antiwar throngs in London, Paris or Berlin
and not leave poor, exhausted Tony Blair to always make the case.
The hidden huddle in the Azores is trompe l`oeil diplomacy, giving Mr. Blair a little cover, making Poppy Bush a little happy.
Just three pals feigning sitting around the campfire singing ``Kumbaya,`` as the final U.S. troops and matériel move into place in the Persian Gulf and the president`s ``Interim Iraqi Authority`` postwar occupation plan is collated.
The hawks despise the U.N. and if they`d gotten its support, they never would have been able to establish the principle that the U.S. can act wherever and whenever it wants to — a Lone Ranger, no Tontos.
Cheney, Rummy, Wolfy, etc. never wanted Colin Powell to find a diplomatic solution. They hate diplomatic solutions. That`s why they gleefully junked so many international treaties, multilateral exercises and trans-Atlantic engagements......(NYT)
_________________________________
... and these monsters have their fingers on the nuclear button!
never in the history of the United States Presidency -- such a characterless man -- and such an unscrupulous LIAR (``I am doing ``everything`` to ``avoid`` war``!) -- came to occupy the highest position of the world’s most powerful country – (albeit by a minority of half a million votes):
Mashing Our Monster
By MAUREEN DOWD
WASHINGTON — Everyone thinks the Bush diplomacy on Iraq is a wreck.
It isn`t.
It`s a success because it was never meant to succeed.
For the hawks, it`s a succès d`estime. (If I may be so gauche as to use a French phrase in a city where federal employees are slapping stickers over the word ``French`` on packets of French dressing and on machines dispensing French vanilla yogurt at the Capitol.
Seeing this made me long for the cold war, when you could eat your Russian dressing in peace and when Jackie Kennedy brought France to heel with élan, brains and charm, rather than scattershot embargos and inane suggestions in the capital L` Enfant planned that we disinter our war dead in France.)
Sure, the Bushies might be feeling a bit rattled right now, with the old international system and the North Atlantic alliance crashing down around their ears.
But you can`t transfigure the world without ticking off the world.
It`s not a simple task, carving new divisions in Europe, just as Europe is moving past the divisions that led to the greatest tragedies of the 20th century.
The Bush hawks never intended to give peace a chance. They intended to give pre-emption a chance.
They never wanted to merely disarm the slimy Saddam. They wanted to dislodge and dispose of him.
The president`s slapped-together Azores summit is not meant to ``go the last mile`` on diplomacy, as Ari Fleischer put it.
If Mr. Bush really wanted to do that, he`d try to persuade some leaders who disagree with him; he`d confront the antiwar throngs in London, Paris or Berlin
and not leave poor, exhausted Tony Blair to always make the case.
The hidden huddle in the Azores is trompe l`oeil diplomacy, giving Mr. Blair a little cover, making Poppy Bush a little happy.
Just three pals feigning sitting around the campfire singing ``Kumbaya,`` as the final U.S. troops and matériel move into place in the Persian Gulf and the president`s ``Interim Iraqi Authority`` postwar occupation plan is collated.
The hawks despise the U.N. and if they`d gotten its support, they never would have been able to establish the principle that the U.S. can act wherever and whenever it wants to — a Lone Ranger, no Tontos.
Cheney, Rummy, Wolfy, etc. never wanted Colin Powell to find a diplomatic solution. They hate diplomatic solutions. That`s why they gleefully junked so many international treaties, multilateral exercises and trans-Atlantic engagements......(NYT)
_________________________________
... and these monsters have their fingers on the nuclear button!
#37 Posted by Urstruly on March 15, 2003 7:30:51 am
As soon as the riches start flowing from the carcass of Muslim lands to the Americas and West, we will find such whining hypocrite Americans at the forefront of defending and praising the agression. I refuse to accept that so far no American has been able to put two and two together and hasn`t figured out that if Americans could get Gulf war syndrome just by being 20,000 feet above the Iraqi surface then what would have happened to the Iraqis who were actually on the ground for the past ten years. Such hypocrites chose to remain silent on the slow genocide of Iraqis for 10 years due to the chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons of mass destruction that Americans have used on Iraqis and now this sob is whining about why he is being asked about his culinary habbits. Mr. Dough, You have to do better than that to prove that you are only half as bad as you look to the rest of the world.
#36 Posted by ferozk on March 15, 2003 7:30:51 am
Re: Stuka
If you are so eager to give up your constitutional rights, in the United States, to gain a little security, then why did you leave Pakistan in the first place?
Why?
Pakistan would have given you the same sense of fear and lack of constitutional rights and you would not have to waste money on a plane ticket either! If you want a lack of freedom, you should have stayed in Pakistan and experienced facism in all its misguided glory. If you still want a lack of freedom, please move back to Pakistan and then, maybe if you are capable of realizing it, you will learn what is the true meaning of freedom. No matter what the reasons, freedom must be never be compromised and those, like yourselves, who compromise freedom in hopes of gaining a little more security are living in an utopian paradise.
You should visit Pakistan and experience, what it feels like to live under a facist country with no rights before you adovcate such an infantile suggestion.
Ciao
If you are so eager to give up your constitutional rights, in the United States, to gain a little security, then why did you leave Pakistan in the first place?
Why?
Pakistan would have given you the same sense of fear and lack of constitutional rights and you would not have to waste money on a plane ticket either! If you want a lack of freedom, you should have stayed in Pakistan and experienced facism in all its misguided glory. If you still want a lack of freedom, please move back to Pakistan and then, maybe if you are capable of realizing it, you will learn what is the true meaning of freedom. No matter what the reasons, freedom must be never be compromised and those, like yourselves, who compromise freedom in hopes of gaining a little more security are living in an utopian paradise.
You should visit Pakistan and experience, what it feels like to live under a facist country with no rights before you adovcate such an infantile suggestion.
Ciao
#35 Posted by nasah on March 14, 2003 10:18:59 pm
The dyslexic American Administrations will never learn – despite 9/11
after what US did for the rabid Islamization of Afghanistan’s and its worldwide repercussions -- we are once again embarked on the Islamization of another secular country – Iraq.
Herre is what a Christian from Iraq has to say to a Washington P{ost correspondent -- about the greatest friend of Islamists extremists -- the United States of America --
By Anthony Shadid
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, March 15, 2003;
BAGHDAD, March 14 -- Under the shadows of shimmering white crosses stretching like a rampart along his Baghdad neighborhood, Nabil Jamil fumbled his keys as if they were worry beads.
With the nostalgia that so dominates Iraq, he recalled the days in the 1970s when President Saddam Hussein`s Baath Party kept religion out of political life, delivering a measure of space to the country`s religious minorities.
The veil (hijab) was an uncommon sight in Baghdad back then, bars flourished in some neighborhoods and the government appealed to a secular Arab identity that it hoped would arch over the country`s tapestry of faith and ethnicity.
Glumly, Jamil said he fears less and less of that tolerance remains.
On the eve of an expected war, religious sentiment is overshadowing the secularism that once defined Iraq.
Through speeches, symbols and slogans, Hussein`s government has increasingly turned to Islam in its search for legitimacy, playing down the Arab nationalism that once served as its ideology.
Many of its people -- Shiite Muslims and Sunnis, along with a small Christian minority -- have turned to faith, desperate for respite from the misery of war and more than a decade of sanctions.
The forces of faith, Jamil said, are a wild card in the future of an apprehensive country, shaping the fears of what might come after a war.
``To be honest, this is our biggest worry from the attack that is coming,`` he said, sitting with his wife at the St. George Greek Catholic Church in the neighborhood of Karrada.
``Our fear is that whatever comes next will not be tolerant.``...(WP)
_________________________________________
it would not be the height of cynicism to say -- that the history repeating -- almost cyclical events of past three decades have shown --
that the greatest ENEMY of Muslim Secularism and Muslim Progressivism -- is none other than -- the United Sates of America --
between the Peanut Farmer, a B Actor, a hyperthyroid and his coke sniffing, brain-damaged son -- this country has made a Shish Kebob of democracy and modernity in almost every Muslim country--
and as always -- is ever ready to HELP and OBLIGE -- the Extremist Islamist Hyenas -- to feast upon the dead carcasses of Muslim secularism in Iraq -- now
in 2003 -- folks get ready for another Mulla Omar and – for the second coming of Ayatollaa Khoomeany in Iraq and Middle East -- courtesy -- Texas OIL minister -- the Reverend Georgetulla Bushmeany.
after what US did for the rabid Islamization of Afghanistan’s and its worldwide repercussions -- we are once again embarked on the Islamization of another secular country – Iraq.
Herre is what a Christian from Iraq has to say to a Washington P{ost correspondent -- about the greatest friend of Islamists extremists -- the United States of America --
By Anthony Shadid
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, March 15, 2003;
BAGHDAD, March 14 -- Under the shadows of shimmering white crosses stretching like a rampart along his Baghdad neighborhood, Nabil Jamil fumbled his keys as if they were worry beads.
With the nostalgia that so dominates Iraq, he recalled the days in the 1970s when President Saddam Hussein`s Baath Party kept religion out of political life, delivering a measure of space to the country`s religious minorities.
The veil (hijab) was an uncommon sight in Baghdad back then, bars flourished in some neighborhoods and the government appealed to a secular Arab identity that it hoped would arch over the country`s tapestry of faith and ethnicity.
Glumly, Jamil said he fears less and less of that tolerance remains.
On the eve of an expected war, religious sentiment is overshadowing the secularism that once defined Iraq.
Through speeches, symbols and slogans, Hussein`s government has increasingly turned to Islam in its search for legitimacy, playing down the Arab nationalism that once served as its ideology.
Many of its people -- Shiite Muslims and Sunnis, along with a small Christian minority -- have turned to faith, desperate for respite from the misery of war and more than a decade of sanctions.
The forces of faith, Jamil said, are a wild card in the future of an apprehensive country, shaping the fears of what might come after a war.
``To be honest, this is our biggest worry from the attack that is coming,`` he said, sitting with his wife at the St. George Greek Catholic Church in the neighborhood of Karrada.
``Our fear is that whatever comes next will not be tolerant.``...(WP)
_________________________________________
it would not be the height of cynicism to say -- that the history repeating -- almost cyclical events of past three decades have shown --
that the greatest ENEMY of Muslim Secularism and Muslim Progressivism -- is none other than -- the United Sates of America --
between the Peanut Farmer, a B Actor, a hyperthyroid and his coke sniffing, brain-damaged son -- this country has made a Shish Kebob of democracy and modernity in almost every Muslim country--
and as always -- is ever ready to HELP and OBLIGE -- the Extremist Islamist Hyenas -- to feast upon the dead carcasses of Muslim secularism in Iraq -- now
in 2003 -- folks get ready for another Mulla Omar and – for the second coming of Ayatollaa Khoomeany in Iraq and Middle East -- courtesy -- Texas OIL minister -- the Reverend Georgetulla Bushmeany.
#33 Posted by sadna on March 14, 2003 1:43:43 pm
Samina #29
``My def. of transnationalism is not one that in any way excuses or condones the use of terroristic or military invasions.``
I know that already :). To clarify, mine was a general comment on this thread, not a particular response to your post only.
``My def. of transnationalism is not one that in any way excuses or condones the use of terroristic or military invasions.``
I know that already :). To clarify, mine was a general comment on this thread, not a particular response to your post only.
#31 Posted by stuka on March 14, 2003 11:32:06 am
TAhmed: It is funny but I am sorry to burst your bubble. It`s a rip off on future of India that was dreamed by some techies during the boom of 2001...no doubt those chaps are back to programming in Bangalore or Hyderabad which were the cities quoted in the original one.
#30 Posted by temporal on March 14, 2003 10:41:16 am
#18 by sadna:
good for you!…we all do…just as we always speak the truth…don’t we? or hold opinion? (you do discern between holding opinion and being opinionated?)
the noblest pursuit:
the pursuit of truth
the sages found
and fought over it
now the mirror of truth
lies shattered
each piece valued
and possessed
rgds.
t
ps: oh!...wrong again!...i am not a preacher;)
good for you!…we all do…just as we always speak the truth…don’t we? or hold opinion? (you do discern between holding opinion and being opinionated?)
the noblest pursuit:
the pursuit of truth
the sages found
and fought over it
now the mirror of truth
lies shattered
each piece valued
and possessed
rgds.
t
ps: oh!...wrong again!...i am not a preacher;)
#29 Posted by Saminasha on March 14, 2003 10:05:49 am
Sadna,
My def. of transnationalism is not one that in any way excuses or condones the use of terroristic or military invasions. I refer you to Will Kymlicka for a definition that makes transnationalism a way of protecting undocumented workers in countries that discriminate against them.
My def. of transnationalism is not one that in any way excuses or condones the use of terroristic or military invasions. I refer you to Will Kymlicka for a definition that makes transnationalism a way of protecting undocumented workers in countries that discriminate against them.
#28 Posted by sadna on March 14, 2003 8:52:14 am
Wait a minute. For the left, transnationalism should be upheld in the US but opposed in Iraq? Hey not recognising national boundaries is exactly what GW Bush is doing. Whats the left`s problem?
btw, the Islamic right ALSO believes in transnationalism, that the Muslim Ummah has a right to fight for the interests of Muslims any where in the world. Hey thats what GW Bush also believes, namely that the US has a right to fight for the interests of Americans anywhere in the world.
The positions taken by left are thus very curious.
The left never protests the transnationalism of the Islamic right, they even seem to support it, Arundhati Roy being one prime example. She objects to US campaigns to fight in another country, but doesnot object to jihadi campaigns(even state sponsered) to fight in another country.
Even in the US, the left seems to support Islamic transnationalism, by protesting at everything that tries to come its way, such as extra scrutiny of Muslims from countries where the concept of Islamic transnationalism has wide currency, or the US campaign against prominent Islamic transnationalists of inhuman tendency, the Al Qaeda.
Western transnationalism however is a big nono for the left, whether military like the Iraq or Aghanistan war, or economic like globalization.
The left and the Islamic right in fact seem to have become allies, because they have a common enemy, the capitalistic West.
The primary dislike the Indian left has for the BJP comes not from the BJP`s hate philosophy(Islamic transnationalists propagate A LOT OF hatred too and leftists have never protested this), but from the BJP`s alliance with the US.
Sab ke sab lafangey as Ahmed Madani would say :)
#27 Posted by tahmed32 on March 14, 2003 8:52:14 am
samina/stuka/nazar/temporal/veeresh and any other normal person on this board - I got this on the internet for your reading pleasure:
THE FUTURE PAKISTAN
Two Top American Executives at IBM, USA
Alex: Hi John. You didn`t come to work yesterday
John: Yeah. I was at the Pakistani Embassy trying to
get my visa.
Alex: Oh, really? What happened? I`ve heard that
these days they have become very strict
John: Yeah, but I managed to get it
Alex: How long did it take to get it stamped?
John: Man, it was a long queue. Bill Gates`s Grand son was waiting in front of me and they really gave him a hard time. The poor guy even brought the property papers for his house in Seattle to show them that he will return to USA. I went there at 4:00 a.m. to get in the queue and there were tons of people ahead of me.
Alex: Really? In Pakistan, at the US Embassy it only takes an hour to get a visa for USA.
John: Yeah! But that`s because no one in Pakistan would want to come to USA, except Americans who have taken Pakistani nationality and want to bring their kids here.
Alex: So, when are you leaving?
John: As soon as I get my tickets from the company in Pakistan. I`m so excited. I will be getting a chance to finally fly with the world`s fastest growing airline, Pakistan International Airlines (PIA). Sort of dream come true, you know.
Alex: How long are you planning to stay in Pakistan?
John: What do you mean ``how long``? I will try and settle in Pakistan. My company has promised me that they will process my Green Book as soon as possible.
Alex: Really? Man, you`re a lucky one. It`s very difficult to get the Green Book in Pakistan. Last year my cousin and his family went there on a tourist visa and they`re not coming back now.
John: Yeah. That`s why I`m planning on marrying a Pakistani girl there and then sponsoring my parents and my brother and sister
from New York to Pakistan.
Alex: But I hear you can find lots of good American girls in Karachi and Lahore.
John: Yeah, but I prefer Pakistani girls. They are so
much more superior to our girls, and what great brunette complexion they have!
Alex: What city are you going to?
John: Karachi. The company has an office in downtown
Saddar. Yeah, the salary is good but the cost of living is quite high because of all the people flocking to this high-tech mecca.
Alex: I hear the exchange rate is now $100 to a Rupee! That`s just too much. What about Quetta and Peshawar? What are they like?
John: No idea. But they are cheaper than Karachi,which is the world`s headquarter for information technology now.
Alex: I hear the quality of life in Pakistan is incredible.
John: Yeah, man. You can buy a BMW for Rs.30,000, and
a Mercedes for less than Rs.45,000. But my dream is to purchase a Suzuki Turbo FX-800 which costs roughly Rs.90,000. But what a sweet design, great curves, and it purrs to the touch.
Alex: By the way, which company are you gonna work
for?
John: Haji Jalal Puttarjee & Bros. Technologies, a pure Pakistani conglomerate specializing in embedded software.
Alex: Man, you`re so lucky to work for a pure Pakistani company. They are really intelligent and unlike any American body shops
that have opened their fly-by-night outfits in Pakistan. The Pakistani companies pay you even when you`re on the bench. My friend, Paul Allen, used his bench time to visit the Makran Coast, the most gorgeous resort in Pakistan, I hear.
John: Yeah, man, you`re right. I hope the US learns
something from them and follow in their footsteps. It seems all we do is borrow more and more money from the Askari Bank.
Alex: How are you going to cope with their language?
John: I`ve been learning Urdu since my school days. I always dreamed that one day I`ll head for Pakistan ever since my uncle
bought me that T-Shirt from Islamia College. At the Consulate they tested my proficiency in Urdu and were quite impressed by my score in TOUFL(Test Of Urdu as a Foreign Language).
Alex: Boy! You`re so damn lucky.
John: Yeah. I`ll be travelling in the world`s fastest train, Tezgam. I`ll be visiting the world`s largest theme park in Changa
Manga, and I`ll be visiting the famous Lollywood where I might meet the sons and daughters of movie legends like Nadeem, Sultan Rahi, Anjuman, Reema and the gorgeous of all, Madam Babra Sharif.
Alex: You know, the Pakistani President is scheduled to visit USA next year and I hear that he may increase the number of employment visas.
John: That`s very true. Last month, their Labour Minister, Naswar Khan Pakhtoon, visited the White House and donated Rs.20,000 for the re-development of the World Trade Centre at Silicon
Valley, and has promised more if we follow the models of the fast
developing high-tech cities, Gujranwalla and Raiwind. Bill Gates was lucky to have a chance to meet him. Very lucky person.
Alex: Will you be calling on Dave? I hear that he has made it big there and has a beautiful house on the Lyari River in Karachi.
John: Yeah, I`ll be meeting him.
Alex: Anyway, nice chatting to you, John. Good luck, you lucky guy.
John: Yeah, and the same to you, Alex. By the way, don`t ever go to the Pakistani Consulate in shalwar-kameez because they will think you`re too Pakistanised and may doubt that you will ever come back, and your application will be rejected. And yes, don`t forget to say to the Visa Officer politely: ``As`salam-o-Alaikum, aap kaisay hain?`` It will show them you`re a cultured person.
THE FUTURE PAKISTAN
Two Top American Executives at IBM, USA
Alex: Hi John. You didn`t come to work yesterday
John: Yeah. I was at the Pakistani Embassy trying to
get my visa.
Alex: Oh, really? What happened? I`ve heard that
these days they have become very strict
John: Yeah, but I managed to get it
Alex: How long did it take to get it stamped?
John: Man, it was a long queue. Bill Gates`s Grand son was waiting in front of me and they really gave him a hard time. The poor guy even brought the property papers for his house in Seattle to show them that he will return to USA. I went there at 4:00 a.m. to get in the queue and there were tons of people ahead of me.
Alex: Really? In Pakistan, at the US Embassy it only takes an hour to get a visa for USA.
John: Yeah! But that`s because no one in Pakistan would want to come to USA, except Americans who have taken Pakistani nationality and want to bring their kids here.
Alex: So, when are you leaving?
John: As soon as I get my tickets from the company in Pakistan. I`m so excited. I will be getting a chance to finally fly with the world`s fastest growing airline, Pakistan International Airlines (PIA). Sort of dream come true, you know.
Alex: How long are you planning to stay in Pakistan?
John: What do you mean ``how long``? I will try and settle in Pakistan. My company has promised me that they will process my Green Book as soon as possible.
Alex: Really? Man, you`re a lucky one. It`s very difficult to get the Green Book in Pakistan. Last year my cousin and his family went there on a tourist visa and they`re not coming back now.
John: Yeah. That`s why I`m planning on marrying a Pakistani girl there and then sponsoring my parents and my brother and sister
from New York to Pakistan.
Alex: But I hear you can find lots of good American girls in Karachi and Lahore.
John: Yeah, but I prefer Pakistani girls. They are so
much more superior to our girls, and what great brunette complexion they have!
Alex: What city are you going to?
John: Karachi. The company has an office in downtown
Saddar. Yeah, the salary is good but the cost of living is quite high because of all the people flocking to this high-tech mecca.
Alex: I hear the exchange rate is now $100 to a Rupee! That`s just too much. What about Quetta and Peshawar? What are they like?
John: No idea. But they are cheaper than Karachi,which is the world`s headquarter for information technology now.
Alex: I hear the quality of life in Pakistan is incredible.
John: Yeah, man. You can buy a BMW for Rs.30,000, and
a Mercedes for less than Rs.45,000. But my dream is to purchase a Suzuki Turbo FX-800 which costs roughly Rs.90,000. But what a sweet design, great curves, and it purrs to the touch.
Alex: By the way, which company are you gonna work
for?
John: Haji Jalal Puttarjee & Bros. Technologies, a pure Pakistani conglomerate specializing in embedded software.
Alex: Man, you`re so lucky to work for a pure Pakistani company. They are really intelligent and unlike any American body shops
that have opened their fly-by-night outfits in Pakistan. The Pakistani companies pay you even when you`re on the bench. My friend, Paul Allen, used his bench time to visit the Makran Coast, the most gorgeous resort in Pakistan, I hear.
John: Yeah, man, you`re right. I hope the US learns
something from them and follow in their footsteps. It seems all we do is borrow more and more money from the Askari Bank.
Alex: How are you going to cope with their language?
John: I`ve been learning Urdu since my school days. I always dreamed that one day I`ll head for Pakistan ever since my uncle
bought me that T-Shirt from Islamia College. At the Consulate they tested my proficiency in Urdu and were quite impressed by my score in TOUFL(Test Of Urdu as a Foreign Language).
Alex: Boy! You`re so damn lucky.
John: Yeah. I`ll be travelling in the world`s fastest train, Tezgam. I`ll be visiting the world`s largest theme park in Changa
Manga, and I`ll be visiting the famous Lollywood where I might meet the sons and daughters of movie legends like Nadeem, Sultan Rahi, Anjuman, Reema and the gorgeous of all, Madam Babra Sharif.
Alex: You know, the Pakistani President is scheduled to visit USA next year and I hear that he may increase the number of employment visas.
John: That`s very true. Last month, their Labour Minister, Naswar Khan Pakhtoon, visited the White House and donated Rs.20,000 for the re-development of the World Trade Centre at Silicon
Valley, and has promised more if we follow the models of the fast
developing high-tech cities, Gujranwalla and Raiwind. Bill Gates was lucky to have a chance to meet him. Very lucky person.
Alex: Will you be calling on Dave? I hear that he has made it big there and has a beautiful house on the Lyari River in Karachi.
John: Yeah, I`ll be meeting him.
Alex: Anyway, nice chatting to you, John. Good luck, you lucky guy.
John: Yeah, and the same to you, Alex. By the way, don`t ever go to the Pakistani Consulate in shalwar-kameez because they will think you`re too Pakistanised and may doubt that you will ever come back, and your application will be rejected. And yes, don`t forget to say to the Visa Officer politely: ``As`salam-o-Alaikum, aap kaisay hain?`` It will show them you`re a cultured person.
#26 Posted by Saminasha on March 14, 2003 7:06:06 am
Mr. Doe,
Welcome to Chowk. What kind of dissent against US policy viz Iraq have you been privy to in Europe?
Saima and Stuka
Saima seems to be looking at citizenship through a post nationalist interpretation, one way of ``globalizing identity`` and one response to the kinds of nationalisms that mandate that working people like you, Stuka arent given a hard time in the US, just because you are an immigrant.
And you do know that just because you have no problem with the growing invasive policies towards our civil rights-we do. This country has a chance at working because those rights were guaranteed us in our Constitution. I caution the people who are agreeable to these alterations of our Constitution to think about the process that has prevented questionable alterations from taking place before-this process has been bypassed. This is a serious issue which any honest Rep, Dem, Ind. would acknowledge has ramifications for the US`s future.
Welcome to Chowk. What kind of dissent against US policy viz Iraq have you been privy to in Europe?
Saima and Stuka
Saima seems to be looking at citizenship through a post nationalist interpretation, one way of ``globalizing identity`` and one response to the kinds of nationalisms that mandate that working people like you, Stuka arent given a hard time in the US, just because you are an immigrant.
And you do know that just because you have no problem with the growing invasive policies towards our civil rights-we do. This country has a chance at working because those rights were guaranteed us in our Constitution. I caution the people who are agreeable to these alterations of our Constitution to think about the process that has prevented questionable alterations from taking place before-this process has been bypassed. This is a serious issue which any honest Rep, Dem, Ind. would acknowledge has ramifications for the US`s future.
#25 Posted by stuka on March 14, 2003 7:06:06 am
Nasah:
I agree with you 100% but those very rights that we take for granted exist because the United States has been strong enough to fight of totalitarian forces.
Of what use is my right to privacy if it allows terrorists to infiltrate and weaken the very foundation of this country. I would rather sacrifice my right to privacy than watch the horror of Sep 11, 2001 again. You may call it puerile patriotism and maybe that is what it is. However, it is a tradeoff I am willing to make.
There are people out there who hate this way of life and their unknowing and unwilling allies are the leftists of this country who provide a camouflage for these enemies to operate in. The ``liberals`` of today remind me of the leftists of the 60S and 70s who marched in the West for detente with the Soviets, not realizing what fate would have awaited them if they did the same back there.
I agree with you 100% but those very rights that we take for granted exist because the United States has been strong enough to fight of totalitarian forces.
Of what use is my right to privacy if it allows terrorists to infiltrate and weaken the very foundation of this country. I would rather sacrifice my right to privacy than watch the horror of Sep 11, 2001 again. You may call it puerile patriotism and maybe that is what it is. However, it is a tradeoff I am willing to make.
There are people out there who hate this way of life and their unknowing and unwilling allies are the leftists of this country who provide a camouflage for these enemies to operate in. The ``liberals`` of today remind me of the leftists of the 60S and 70s who marched in the West for detente with the Soviets, not realizing what fate would have awaited them if they did the same back there.
#24 Posted by stuka on March 14, 2003 7:06:06 am
Saima:
``Dissent should make an impact--people in power have to listen for it to work. It seems to many that the US administration isnt listening anymore. ``
So your grouch is not about freedom of speech and the right to dissent. It is that the administration is not listening to those who disagree with it.
To you, a country has ``freedom`` only if the administration always listens to those who disagree. If that is not intellectual fascism I don`t know what is.
The members of the KKK also disagree with the government in many ways. Should the administration listen to them?
Or is dissent considered only the holy grail of the left?
``Dissent should make an impact--people in power have to listen for it to work. It seems to many that the US administration isnt listening anymore. ``
So your grouch is not about freedom of speech and the right to dissent. It is that the administration is not listening to those who disagree with it.
To you, a country has ``freedom`` only if the administration always listens to those who disagree. If that is not intellectual fascism I don`t know what is.
The members of the KKK also disagree with the government in many ways. Should the administration listen to them?
Or is dissent considered only the holy grail of the left?
#23 Posted by mohar11 on March 13, 2003 11:18:19 pm
The rise of ``police state culture`` in US is indeed worrisome, but at this point of time I don`t see any other alternative to eliminate the menace of Islamic terrorism.
At this time - it is clear that US and the World needs some heavy-duty actions to contain terrorism.
At this time - it is clear that US and the World needs some heavy-duty actions to contain terrorism.
#22 Posted by nasah on March 13, 2003 11:18:19 pm
“I would willingly give up some right of privacy to protect this system which gives me more dignity as a human being than the country of my birth.”(STUKA)
My dear young man – there U R -- talking like an inexperienced newly arrived -- neophyte immigrant – with justifiable pangs of puerile patriotism.
this country and its SYSTEM is -- NOT PROTECTED -- by ‘giving up’ -- your right of privacy –
this country IS BASED upon-- “protecting your rights of privacy” – unlike other countries – or at least it DID – until it was hijacked by a cabal of Texas RED NECKS – alias OIL Thugs – albeit temporarily.
Contrary to mr. aschcroft beliefs --
this is not a fascist or a communist country – where rights of the individuals are taken away -- to “protect” -- the Party designed “rights” -- of the community -- or the State –
this is NOT a country where -– rights of 99% are curbed to “protect” them from the crimes of 1% -- US system is NOT based upon this totalitarian premise.
this is a country where the rights of the INDIVIDUAL reign supreme – over the rights of the State -- to make both the community and the State -- truly FREE – and truly representative.
that’s the SECRET of the success of this economic GIANT – not the vice versa
And remember young man – don’t EVER give up your precious -- Right of Privacy –
your true DIGNITY comes – from KEEPING them – NOT by giving them up --
NOT EVEN -- ‘some” of them.
My dear young man – there U R -- talking like an inexperienced newly arrived -- neophyte immigrant – with justifiable pangs of puerile patriotism.
this country and its SYSTEM is -- NOT PROTECTED -- by ‘giving up’ -- your right of privacy –
this country IS BASED upon-- “protecting your rights of privacy” – unlike other countries – or at least it DID – until it was hijacked by a cabal of Texas RED NECKS – alias OIL Thugs – albeit temporarily.
Contrary to mr. aschcroft beliefs --
this is not a fascist or a communist country – where rights of the individuals are taken away -- to “protect” -- the Party designed “rights” -- of the community -- or the State –
this is NOT a country where -– rights of 99% are curbed to “protect” them from the crimes of 1% -- US system is NOT based upon this totalitarian premise.
this is a country where the rights of the INDIVIDUAL reign supreme – over the rights of the State -- to make both the community and the State -- truly FREE – and truly representative.
that’s the SECRET of the success of this economic GIANT – not the vice versa
And remember young man – don’t EVER give up your precious -- Right of Privacy –
your true DIGNITY comes – from KEEPING them – NOT by giving them up --
NOT EVEN -- ‘some” of them.
#21 Posted by Ras on March 13, 2003 9:09:48 pm
Welcome to CHOWK ``John Doe``.
Man this Patriot II thing is even scaring the Red White and Blue!
``All we are saying is, give WAR a chance``
My how times have changed.
Ras
#20 Posted by sadna on March 13, 2003 8:32:47 pm
temporal #16
I recognise that your preaching to me ``it is all right to learn from any and every where`` is a masterful way to cover up the fact that there is ABSOLUTELY NO discussion let alone activism among expat Pakistanis about the extremist organisations in the US preaching hatred like Jamat Ul Faqra or about expat Pakistani funding of jihadi organisations back home.
So I`ll trust my own judgement about balance, thanks.
I recognise that your preaching to me ``it is all right to learn from any and every where`` is a masterful way to cover up the fact that there is ABSOLUTELY NO discussion let alone activism among expat Pakistanis about the extremist organisations in the US preaching hatred like Jamat Ul Faqra or about expat Pakistani funding of jihadi organisations back home.
So I`ll trust my own judgement about balance, thanks.
#19 Posted by hrrehman on March 13, 2003 8:32:47 pm
#4 by sadna on March 13, 2003 11:58am PT
What? Pakistani expat donors to jihadi organisations are rednecks? Not a chance, those are people of `principle`.
Please don`t make this out to be a Paki-Hindi issue.
For once get your head out of your bottom and think with open mind.
What? Pakistani expat donors to jihadi organisations are rednecks? Not a chance, those are people of `principle`.
Please don`t make this out to be a Paki-Hindi issue.
For once get your head out of your bottom and think with open mind.
#18 Posted by hrrehman on March 13, 2003 8:32:47 pm
#11 by sadna on March 13, 2003 2:49pm PT
On the other hand, I heard about JamaatUl Faqra and funding of jihadi organisations by Pakistani expats NOT from any discussions among expat Pakistanis or any expat Pakistani community action against such organisations but from the Western press reports of US govt investigations and convictions related to this organisation.
Please, don`t tell me you believe the western press.
I believe the western press as much as I believe the Indian press:)
On the other hand, I heard about JamaatUl Faqra and funding of jihadi organisations by Pakistani expats NOT from any discussions among expat Pakistanis or any expat Pakistani community action against such organisations but from the Western press reports of US govt investigations and convictions related to this organisation.
Please, don`t tell me you believe the western press.
I believe the western press as much as I believe the Indian press:)
#17 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on March 13, 2003 8:32:46 pm
John
The threat posed by the radical Islam is real. The sect of `fastest growing religion in the West` was of this radical Islam.
If the 9/11 was delayed for another few years by Osama, the calamity would have been of a far bigger magnitude.
The Americans have correctly identified the problem and the world at large should be grateful to them for having the courage to do something about it.
I am grateful to them because they got Pakistan rid of `Taalibanization`. Our army shows great fire and fury towards the India but has been scared of its own tribal areas & radical Islamists. Probably was in cohoots with them.
So please go through this checking done by the Americans with an open mind. It is good for all of us in the long run. Only the Americans can do such a worldwide massive data management and tracking system.
#16 Posted by shah. on March 13, 2003 5:49:34 pm
t,
Who are the rednecks in IDRF? Do you know Vijay and Sarla Prakash and the work they have been doing? I sincerely hope they can sue Biju Matthew type scum for libel in an American court.
regards
Who are the rednecks in IDRF? Do you know Vijay and Sarla Prakash and the work they have been doing? I sincerely hope they can sue Biju Matthew type scum for libel in an American court.
regards
#15 Posted by temporal on March 13, 2003 5:49:34 pm
#11 by sadna:
`Why would I mention IDRF? Let me point out, you know about IDRF only because of lengthy discussions and exchanges on the subject among Indian expats online and in the streets, discussions which, IMO have been inconclusive..``
---wrong...on several counts:)
``...On the other hand...``
---it is all right to learn...from any and every where...
and yes: ``Amazing.``
:)
rgds,
t
`Why would I mention IDRF? Let me point out, you know about IDRF only because of lengthy discussions and exchanges on the subject among Indian expats online and in the streets, discussions which, IMO have been inconclusive..``
---wrong...on several counts:)
``...On the other hand...``
---it is all right to learn...from any and every where...
and yes: ``Amazing.``
:)
rgds,
t
#14 Posted by hxn on March 13, 2003 5:49:33 pm
saimashah # 12
``useful idiots``
i believe its from lenin and refers to left-wingers in western countries. Apparently he held them in low regard but found them helpful in propagating a sick ideology.
do you think there is any truth to his quote?
``useful idiots``
i believe its from lenin and refers to left-wingers in western countries. Apparently he held them in low regard but found them helpful in propagating a sick ideology.
do you think there is any truth to his quote?
#13 Posted by FJ on March 13, 2003 3:03:52 pm
Title is misleading. These are observations by an Asianized-American expat.
#12 Posted by SaimaShah on March 13, 2003 3:03:34 pm
re: Stuka
facts are what you make of the world. I see this fact: The future is more important than the past.
There are two ways to deal with an unpleasant fact: One is to accept it, the other is to try and change it. Once you call a bad thing is bad, it becomes easier to change it regardless of which border u reside in. As for passports--they came about because of the creation of nations. they are a fact today but may not remain a fact tomorrow. fact is, things change. Fact is people use different facts to prove their own beliefs. Fact is people are different, fact is people are similar. Facts can be manipulated. What seems like hyperbole to you is a different connect-the-dots for another person.
Even though there is dissent in USA, it seems to be making no impact on the powerful elite in Government. And yes, it is a `fact` that USA has a democratic system of government, it is also a `fact` that the democracy is far from perfect. Dissent alone cannot take the place of Justice. Dissent should make an impact--people in power have to listen for it to work. It seems to many that the US administration isnt listening anymore.
facts are what you make of the world. I see this fact: The future is more important than the past.
There are two ways to deal with an unpleasant fact: One is to accept it, the other is to try and change it. Once you call a bad thing is bad, it becomes easier to change it regardless of which border u reside in. As for passports--they came about because of the creation of nations. they are a fact today but may not remain a fact tomorrow. fact is, things change. Fact is people use different facts to prove their own beliefs. Fact is people are different, fact is people are similar. Facts can be manipulated. What seems like hyperbole to you is a different connect-the-dots for another person.
Even though there is dissent in USA, it seems to be making no impact on the powerful elite in Government. And yes, it is a `fact` that USA has a democratic system of government, it is also a `fact` that the democracy is far from perfect. Dissent alone cannot take the place of Justice. Dissent should make an impact--people in power have to listen for it to work. It seems to many that the US administration isnt listening anymore.
#11 Posted by sadna on March 13, 2003 2:49:58 pm
temporal #6
Why would I mention IDRF? Let me point out, you know about IDRF only because of lengthy discussions and exchanges on the subject among Indian expats online and in the streets, discussions which, IMO have been inconclusive..
On the other hand, I heard about JamaatUl Faqra and funding of jihadi organisations by Pakistani expats NOT from any discussions among expat Pakistanis or any expat Pakistani community action against such organisations but from the Western press reports of US govt investigations and convictions related to this organisation.
And in this article the Indian Prime Minister himself is identified as a redneck, in front of whom IDRF is small fish. But you are still not satisfied with the balance in this discussion. Amazing.
Why would I mention IDRF? Let me point out, you know about IDRF only because of lengthy discussions and exchanges on the subject among Indian expats online and in the streets, discussions which, IMO have been inconclusive..
On the other hand, I heard about JamaatUl Faqra and funding of jihadi organisations by Pakistani expats NOT from any discussions among expat Pakistanis or any expat Pakistani community action against such organisations but from the Western press reports of US govt investigations and convictions related to this organisation.
And in this article the Indian Prime Minister himself is identified as a redneck, in front of whom IDRF is small fish. But you are still not satisfied with the balance in this discussion. Amazing.
#10 Posted by bundchungal on March 13, 2003 2:19:54 pm
I don`t completely agree with the American actions mentioned, but I cannot blame them either.
The Funda Islamists have brought this wrath upon themselves. They are squarely to blame for their situation.
To remove this apprehension the Muslims must redeem themselves by publically distancing themselves from the Funda Muslims and their actions.
The Funda Islamists have brought this wrath upon themselves. They are squarely to blame for their situation.
To remove this apprehension the Muslims must redeem themselves by publically distancing themselves from the Funda Muslims and their actions.
#9 Posted by stuka on March 13, 2003 2:19:54 pm
Veeresh
C`mon dude :) Nothing I said was personal. Just retorting to some of the rhetoric. Factual arguement sways me and hyperbole irritates me.
C`mon dude :) Nothing I said was personal. Just retorting to some of the rhetoric. Factual arguement sways me and hyperbole irritates me.
#8 Posted by temporal on March 13, 2003 1:26:35 pm
#4 sadna:
...you are partially right...a more balanced comment would have included the rednecks in IRDF...:)
...t
...you are partially right...a more balanced comment would have included the rednecks in IRDF...:)
...t
#7 Posted by veeresh on March 13, 2003 1:26:35 pm
I say stuka, for an otherwise decent guy, why are you taking off on today? On Saima?
#6 Posted by temporal on March 13, 2003 12:44:40 pm
#4 sadna:
...you are partially right...but tilting...a more balanced comment would have included the rednecks in IRDF...:)
...t
...you are partially right...but tilting...a more balanced comment would have included the rednecks in IRDF...:)
...t
#5 Posted by stuka on March 13, 2003 12:42:31 pm
Saima Shah:
``Last I heard All are welcome to read write and think at Chowk--so why should he not talk to the readers of Chowk.``
Erm, when did I say he should NOT talk to them?
`` America WAS the bastion of freedom. Things have changed--slowly but surely over the last decade.``
I see. The past decade? When were the constitutional rights repealed? The recent anti-war marches were expressions of what??? Dissent possibly?
`` People at Chowk are NOT `immigrants` or `xyz` but explorers crossing terrains. Anybody can take to the quest at any time.``
Those ``terrains`` happen to include political boundaries. If the boundary is crossed not to explore but to earn a livlihood, you are an immigrant. Calling yourself fancy schmancy names does not change anything.
``I refuse to be called a `south asian immigrant`. I am a traveller in ideas, space and time. Today I happen to be in Canada. Tomorrow the world beckons. ``
Have fun travelling in space and time. I don`t think most Chowkies have access to time machines or space shuttles. As far as going to different countries is concerned, remember to take your passport. Despite your one world rhetoric, border guards do not take kindly to ``explorers crossing terrains`` if they do not have legal documentation.
``Last I heard All are welcome to read write and think at Chowk--so why should he not talk to the readers of Chowk.``
Erm, when did I say he should NOT talk to them?
`` America WAS the bastion of freedom. Things have changed--slowly but surely over the last decade.``
I see. The past decade? When were the constitutional rights repealed? The recent anti-war marches were expressions of what??? Dissent possibly?
`` People at Chowk are NOT `immigrants` or `xyz` but explorers crossing terrains. Anybody can take to the quest at any time.``
Those ``terrains`` happen to include political boundaries. If the boundary is crossed not to explore but to earn a livlihood, you are an immigrant. Calling yourself fancy schmancy names does not change anything.
``I refuse to be called a `south asian immigrant`. I am a traveller in ideas, space and time. Today I happen to be in Canada. Tomorrow the world beckons. ``
Have fun travelling in space and time. I don`t think most Chowkies have access to time machines or space shuttles. As far as going to different countries is concerned, remember to take your passport. Despite your one world rhetoric, border guards do not take kindly to ``explorers crossing terrains`` if they do not have legal documentation.
#4 Posted by sadna on March 13, 2003 11:58:35 am
What? Pakistani expat donors to jihadi organisations are rednecks? Not a chance, those are people of `principle`.
So how about dangerous rednecks in for instance, the Pakistani Iftekar Gilani and his US organisation Jamat Ul Fuqra( which Richard Reid also had links to) which was firebombing Hindu temples and killing Indians in the US as far back as the early 80s. Nah. A dead Hindu is yesterdays newspaper to wrap the fish in.
So how about dangerous rednecks in for instance, the Pakistani Iftekar Gilani and his US organisation Jamat Ul Fuqra( which Richard Reid also had links to) which was firebombing Hindu temples and killing Indians in the US as far back as the early 80s. Nah. A dead Hindu is yesterdays newspaper to wrap the fish in.
#3 Posted by temporal on March 13, 2003 11:28:33 am
John:
...just a very personal comment...
...things are not that bad yet that one would have to resort to picking john doe as a nick!...if you fear retalition of sorts with your employers or collegaues you could have selected any other nick...
...ayatollah john ashland and other bushites dallying with the nation would be reversed and done with in the coming 8-10 years...just like that other dark spot on US...the excesses of Mcarthysim...
rgds,
t
...just a very personal comment...
...things are not that bad yet that one would have to resort to picking john doe as a nick!...if you fear retalition of sorts with your employers or collegaues you could have selected any other nick...
...ayatollah john ashland and other bushites dallying with the nation would be reversed and done with in the coming 8-10 years...just like that other dark spot on US...the excesses of Mcarthysim...
rgds,
t
#2 Posted by SaimaShah on March 13, 2003 11:28:33 am
Interesting observations--material that is sure to stir some thoughts. Welcome to Chowk (I hope you see beyond our unbridled speech, it is our one freedom that we protect).
re: Stuka
Last I heard All are welcome to read write and think at Chowk--so why should he not talk to the readers of Chowk. America WAS the bastion of freedom. Things have changed--slowly but surely over the last decade. People at Chowk are NOT `immigrants` or `xyz` but explorers crossing terrains. Anybody can take to the quest at any time. I refuse to be called a `south asian immigrant`. I am a traveller in ideas, space and time. Today I happen to be in Canada. Tomorrow the world beckons.
re: Stuka
Last I heard All are welcome to read write and think at Chowk--so why should he not talk to the readers of Chowk. America WAS the bastion of freedom. Things have changed--slowly but surely over the last decade. People at Chowk are NOT `immigrants` or `xyz` but explorers crossing terrains. Anybody can take to the quest at any time. I refuse to be called a `south asian immigrant`. I am a traveller in ideas, space and time. Today I happen to be in Canada. Tomorrow the world beckons.
#1 Posted by stuka on March 13, 2003 11:12:54 am
Boo Hoo Sob. Would you like some cheese with your whine?
You come on a board dominated by South Asians, quite a few immigrants, to whine about the loss of liberty in the US?
As far as your facile comparisons to Europe are concerned, please talk to a few immigrants there instead of projecting your own experience as a universal one. European cops routinely brutalize illegal immigrants. A German cop can ask for residential permit from any one at any time and yes, it`s only the ethnic types who get the shake down.
As a colored person who has spent time in Europe pre 9/11 and in the states both pre and post 9/11, I`d take the States over France and Germany any day. And yes, I would willingly give up some right of privacy to protect this system which gives me more dignity as a human being than the country of my birth.
You come on a board dominated by South Asians, quite a few immigrants, to whine about the loss of liberty in the US?
As far as your facile comparisons to Europe are concerned, please talk to a few immigrants there instead of projecting your own experience as a universal one. European cops routinely brutalize illegal immigrants. A German cop can ask for residential permit from any one at any time and yes, it`s only the ethnic types who get the shake down.
As a colored person who has spent time in Europe pre 9/11 and in the states both pre and post 9/11, I`d take the States over France and Germany any day. And yes, I would willingly give up some right of privacy to protect this system which gives me more dignity as a human being than the country of my birth.
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