French Fries vs Freedom Fries

friend #64

You are trying to awaken somebody who is pretending to be asleep. He knows very well that he has no case based on the full and actual text of the resolutions. The best he can do is studiously ignore you and pretend that you don`t exist, as he does with most everyone who asks him inconvenient questions.

Romair #62
``Let me put your statement to the test: If tomorrow Bush started bombing India, stating that India has WMD (which it does), is in violation of UN resolutions (Kashmir resolutions), and has killed its minority communities (Gujrat, Kashmir), would you still trust Bush equally?..``

Romair, you have been asked several times- read text of UN resolutions on Kasmir. It is Pakistan that is in violation of these resolutions, not India.

If you feel otherwise quote the text of resolution that India has violated.

Romair,

Aw cmon...
you TOTALLY misunderstood me.
I was trying to tell you how MOIS thinks an average American Jew THINKS...I dont have the wisdom to tell you whether his logic is right or wrong..
I was being cynical...I cant stand it when you get on a ``moral`` pedestal:)

Here:
{{OK OK its Holy for Muslims too---but if all you pious monotheists believe that you are the children of the same God; you guys behave just as badly as us pagan idol worshippers! What the F*CK happened to sharing?! Oooh yes! its ALWAYS the fault of the Jew or the Jew-loving Christians! Muslims are NEVER to blame; is it?! }}

Thats for you ``washed`` muslim intellectuals who protest silently & in a ``dignfied`` manner in your armchair about the bs thats going on in the name of Islam. And let the record show that as a hindu I blame muslims for making some of the idiots in my religion militant . I tell you...these Hindutva idiots are acting like...gasp! ..muslims!!!:)


Ofcourse, from a MORAL standpoint, what Bush is doing is indefensible!---from the standpoint of EACH & EVERY RELIGION ON EARTH...including us indecent horrible kafir hindoos.

I believe the operating phrase in American pop philosophy is ``NO SH*T SHERLOCK!!!`` Believe me, many of the guys in the US, who are anti-war are Jews & Christians too.

So, yes, from one viewpoint I COMPLETELY agree with your post #62.
So, get off your moral pedestal & talk like a ``normal`` human being; not like the frikking Pope...or I`ll continue to tease you...After all, international policy is not shaped, let alone ``made`` on Chowk.

I dont completely agree with you re Serbia, though. ALL Serbians are NOT responsible for the genocide...just as ALL Pakistanis are NOT responsible for the massacres in East Pakistan....& ALL hindus are not responsible for Kashmiri muslims killed (or vice versa). So atleast we have to mourn for the innocent Serb civilians & the innocent Iraqi civilians killed in the first gulf war.

OK, having said that, here`s my cynicism...about religion...among other things. As much as Bush is a demon in the eyes of millions around the globe; he (& his cohorts) are trying to counter that by saying they are pious Christians & Jews too. All the GOOD in the 3 great monotheistic religions in the world is frequently abandoned by the adherents of the religions. Yup, you got an open book test & failed! Then you wonder why God sometimes doesnt hear you?! Our Hindu gods on the other hand are fallible:); ergo, hindus dont know any better:)

OBL HAS made it a ``Clash of the Civilisation``. He drew ``first blood``, acc to Americans (ofcourse they feel that their pro-Israel policy is right).

Here`s my personal philosophy...I`m not preaching to anyone---this is what I feel for my OWN self. And yes, its shaped by my ``super-ego``...ie the sum of my experiences of being born in a devoutly hindu brahmin family, with a VERY strong Gandhian political family (my grandpa, esp), went to school in a Jesuit school in Bombay & spending 20 yrs treating & learning about the human mind. The last 10 years, treating ``NORMAL`` American human beings in pvt practice.

God & Satan are part of the same ``force`` (ala George Lucas:)). There cant be an ``up`` without a ``down``. And sometimes what is ``bad`` to some living creatures, can be ``good`` to others. The same rule can be applied to civilisations. Dominant civilisations soar towards the sun in their sense of ``righteousness`` & then come crashing down. Who told you life was ``fair``.?!

Currently GWB thinks he is on a ``Crusade``. Here`s how he spins it --``its NOT a Christian Crusade...its a ``jehad`` of liberation of the ``poor, oppressed, unwashed, masses in Iraq`` ! See how sensitive the Bush administration was when an overenthusiastic Marine raised the US flag in Iraq! It was immediately pulled down. Just Propaganda?

But that ``spin`` is no different from what the British believed--that British law, justice, democracy, (freedom!!) & other civilised institutions was the hallmark legacy of the British Empire. Big powers get so sanctimonious that they actually start believing some of their bs!

Right now the criticism in America is muted because deep down inside Americans-jews & gentiles, black & white fear ``their way of life`` being altered by terrorists; more than they fear death. If the war in Iraq gets bogged down & the body bags start rolling in, I`ll assure you, Americans THEMSELVES will oppose the war.

So, in a way, you are right. The ``compassionate conservative`` is more CONSERVATIVE than COMPASSIONATE, right now. Thats how a giant behaves when some mystical idiot in a cave kicks him in the nuts.

The world is now getting divided into pro-US & anti-US factions. Which side is right? Thats where the big ``G`` word comes in...& you & I dont have the wisdom to judge; He does & He ultimately prevails. In the same vein OBL believes ( & will become a martyr for it) that he is right...

Yup, both these guys believe God is on THEIR side.

Incidentally, my wife believes that God is on the side of the hindus; cos as indecent as we are, at least we recognise that there are ``Goddesses``:)...some of them evil; like Kali, but Goddesses nonetheless...goddamnit!.

In the meantime, I`ll support my President & Hinduism, like a ``good lil confused hindu American`` & if he`s wrong I`ll scream at him like a good lil American:)...

Shankar #61: You are slowly starting to get confused, and are trying to find answers where no answers exist. Everything you state points to, ``two wrongs making a right.`` The Jews have suffered greatly, but does that give them right to make others suffer? They should be the most sensirtive towards others` sufferings. Arabs have agreed to share land with them. It is Israelis who are not even willing to give them the West Bank or tiny Gaza. Nor are the willing to make them the part of their country.

Mark my word, the Israelis are acting in a highly idiotic manner. It will hurt them in the long run. They have made lifetime enemies of neighboring Muslim and Christian Arabs who never harmed them. Infact Arab Muslims treated them far better than European Christians did. They are getting the US involved in wars, which will engulf the whole world. Sooner or later the Arabs will come out of the third world. At that time, they will look for revenge against Israel, for all the damage Israelis have directly or indirectly done to them. What will happen then?

Israel has a right to take out its anger against Germans. It has no right to take out its anger against Palestinians.

Could you tell me why Iraqis were not, ``liberated`` in 1991 by the USA, and why Saddam wasn`t removed. And why was the Kuwaiti al-Sabah put back into power. Based on this how can you state that you trust the Americans to bomb any country they want. Let me put your statement to the test: If tomorrow Bush started bombing India, stating that India has WMD (which it does), is in violation of UN resolutions (Kashmir resolutions), and has killed its minority communities (Gujrat, Kashmir), would you still trust Bush equally? Or do you have different standards for Indians and Iraqis.

``Romair-- first start demonstrating against DICTATORS like the Saudi royal family, Mushy, Mubarak, Khamenei etc etc.``

I belive it is Bush who supports Saudi monarchy and Mubarak. I have written against them, from day one. Infact, those two form the basis of my stand against US hypocricy.

Khamenei is not a dictator by any means. Please stop listening to US propoganda. He is infact a reformer. He is trying his level best to bring Iran back to a moderate middle path, after the extremism of the Shah and Ayatollah. He is democratically elected, as well. You are brainwashed if you think he is a dictator.

Musharraf was a dictator. But so was Nawaz and BB. He was a much better dictator than those two. Thus not only me, but all of Pakistan supported him when he came into power. If anything Pakistan has been far more open and moderate under him than under NS and BB. I supported him for three years, as did a majority of Pakistan. Now Pakistan is slowly returning to democracy. So what is wrong with having supported Musharraf. He has killed far less people than Bush or Sharon. Most of all he has killed far less people (zero) as compared to, ``democratic`` Vajpayee and Advani (two thousand in Gujrat, equal amount in Ayodhya, and tens of thousands in Kashmir).

The true dictators in the Muslim word are all the leaders supported by the USA. They are infact kings, which is worst than being a dictator: Saudi Arabia, Jordan, UAE, Oman, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, etc.

It is no coincidence that the more democratic Muslim countries (malaysia, turkey, pakistan, iran) have all voted against the USA. While the only Muslim countries supporting the USA are the ones with monarchies.

There is a limit to how much of a benefit of a doubt one can give to someone. Even if the USA attacks a country, after having supported dictators, it is given the benefit of the doubt by its citizens. Have you ever asked yourself why the populations of 190 out of 192 countries in the world are opposing the USA? I am not the only person who distrusts Bush. Can you point me to any other issue (any one issue) where the populations of 190 out of 192 countries agree? If you cannot, then maybe your point of view in trusting Bush has some holes.

In regard to Serbia, the Serbs were carrying out a genocide of the Bosnians and Kosovars. They had to be stopped. I supported thier being stopped. I supported the first Gulf War against Iraq also, because Iraqi was the guilty party. If today US or UK took on Turkey to stop it from attacking Kurds, I would support the US also.

You need to stop looking at human rights as a Muslim/ Christian thing. It should be looked at as a wrong or right thing. I could care less what religon Iraqis or Americans are. If today Iraq attacked its Assyrian Christians, I would support the Christians. If Pakistani Muslims attacked a Bhuddhist Sri Lanka, I would support Sri Lanka.

I cannot speak out against every idiotic and evil US foreign policy action. However that does not mean I should not speak out against as many as I can.

Romair,

Nice to see you back! I was kinda missing our ``good natured`` debates:)

Firstly, my comments are based on what I percieve as ``blunt truth``...maybe thats not quite the right phrase I have in mind...

Maybe its cos in the 20+ yrs of seeing patients in emotional distress, I`ve heard a negative view about ``life`` in general, repeatedly--& I`ve become very cynical in my personal philosophy-- although, with enough optimism of the basic ``goodness`` of mankind --- that I believe, (slowly, painfully perhaps), the ``good`` side of human beings eventually prevails over the bad.

I was a psychiatrist from 82-90 in NY. If you are a non-Jewish doctor in a NY hospital, you are in a minority!:) Consequently, I`ve worked with a lot of Jews & seen a lot of Jews as patients. The fathers of Psychiatry (both biological & analytical) are Jewish. Jews, in general, dont have hang ups about going to psychiatrists:)

I`m aware that tahmed frowns upon people who ``type cast``; because prejudice is a human failing---not just a ``white man`s`` failing....I agree that its not right to typecast a whole community; especially if you dont understand them. Knowledge is the only ``pill`` for prejudice (dad, thankyou for teaching that to me).

But let me stick my neck out a tell you what the ``dominant discourse`` (politically & philosophically), of American Jews I`ve met...Is it a ``scientic`` opinion?--NO--its purely an anecdotal opinion.

Jews, in general, are extremely decent, honest, hard working, upwardly mobile people. They place a tremendous emphasis on education & actively participate & push their kids to be even more successful than their parents. They have a keen knowledge of money, accounting & business. They came penniless to America & now have risen to the upper echelons of success in this country. As far as I`m concerned, they`ve EARNED it.

It has been the success of Jews that have made them targets of prejudice & hate. I believe they have EARNED that success by sheer hard work, a strong faith in God & persevierence. I feel (& the Jews I`ve talked to have confirmed) that it was because of their success that the Christian majority in Europe persecuted them. That hatred was refined to such an extent that it culminated in the Holocaust.

I dont think non-Jews, esp Arabs, appreciate the psycholgical impact that the Holocaust has had on ALL Jews...no matter where in the World.They have this terrible sense of insecurity---that ``tomorrow`` they could be ``thrown out`` or persecuted AGAIN. If it happened in Germany, it can happen in America too. I`ve talked to Holocaust survivors---many of them & their descendants have felt that their faith in God was tested in a manner that NO OTHER people have been tested. In fact, many became atheists or agnostics & it gave rise to Existential philosophy among European intellectuals..

That OJ Simpson`s lawyer--I forget his name--said ``the Holocaust stands on its own...`` It caused some controversy (cos many non-Jews feel that life has been unfair to them too). I dont want to debate if thats RIGHT or not---but let me tell you what I have learnt from Jews: NOBODY, but NO other human group has been rounded up, crammed into cattle carts & sent into chambers of execution---men, women, babies, old, young---didnt matter---all that mattered was they belonged to the ``wrong`` religion. That is a crime against humanity that has NO EQUAL.

When an 80 yr old woman showed me a wrinkled forearm with a number tattoed on it & told me that her entire family was wiped out & she was kept alive as a whore for the SS guards; cos she was pretty---trust me; I cried like a baby in my office, while she looked at me with a vacant expression.

I dont have the WISDOM to debate whether other crimes against humanity (like slavery, ethnic cleansing, other genocides etc etc) are equally evil....I guess only a Spirit as wise as Allah can tackle such controversial issues.

But as far as a Jew is concerned, the Holocaust stands on its own. Deep down (psychologically), a gora who isnt ``anti-Semitic`` accepts it as true. Jews played a very prominant role in the Civil Rights & anti-Vietnam war movements in America. Believe it or not, many of the anti-Iraq war demonstrators in the US are Jews. So I dont they are advocating for ``special`` treatment.

However, Jews also realised that after WW2, nobody wanted them & many of the ``original European Israeli settlers`` were refugees going from country to country--only to be treated ``respectfully`` as ``unwanted``. So, psychologically, they consider the ``holy Land`` theirs---right, wrong or indifferent. With single-minded determination they have become a very powerful political group in the US--because to them its a question of SURVIVAL.

It didnt help when Israel was being formed, Arabs were OPENLY calling out for their destruction & fought several wars with that in mind. Jews have NEVER shed the Masada complex---in fact, it strenghtened after the Holocaust.

The Peace process, which started with so much enthusiasm, fizzled out. The problem is that Jews dont TRUST Arabs. In fact, they have some problems with the issue of trust with most gentiles. I personally feel that Arafat`s hands are dirty even when he`s taking the high road. Thats not to say I support Sharon--2 wrongs dont make a right. But Goddamnit! have you seen the size of Israel?! Jezuz. H. Christ, its a tiny sliver of land....compare that with the ``living space`` Allah has provided the generously fertile true believers!

OK OK its Holy for Muslims too---but if all you pious monotheists believe that you are the children of the same God; you guys behave just as badly as us pagan idol worshippers! What the F*CK happened to sharing?! Oooh yes! its ALWAYS the fault of the Jew or the Jew-loving Christians! Muslims are NEVER to blame; is it?!

THATS the ``dominant discourse`` Americans have been hearing on the ``Islamic street``. As a group, moderate muslims either dont vocally demonstrate against the bs thats going on in the Islamic world, or give silent approval to their unwashed screaming brothers.

But when ``innocent muslim civilians are being killed``; you wail FOUL! Hey, NOBODY can morally defend a notion of killing ``innocent civilians``!

All 3 religions have been given an open book test by God Himself & all of you frikking monotheists ( as a group) are failing miserably! Who says you cant mix politics with religion?! Whether you like it or not, it ALWAYS has been inseparable....esp now that ``MORALITY`` in politics is being questioned!

Personally, I think God Himself is DISGUSTED with all his disciples & has turned His back on the Holy Land. I mean; I can understand if us idol worshipping pagans & ``non-believers`` behave like Neanderthals---we werent ``taught`` any better!:)...but YOU--as a group; were!
OK OK--enough sermons!!:))

When God doesnt intervene; Might BECOMES Right!!

So, if the Islamic World becomes militant, the Judeo-Christian American world will become even MORE stubborn! & they WONT apologise!
Why do you think Bush et all, think ``shock & awe`` is ``justified``?!. George Bush prays to God just as much as pious muslims pray to Him!
Thats what terrorism does to the ``victim`` of terrtorism! The ``victim`s`` mind becomes more ``righteous``. As far as Bush is concerned, there is a very real threat that Saddam & Al-Qeeda will join hands in the future. If the rest of the world doesnt want to believe America; screw them!

What is the role you ``moderate muslim intellectuals`` played?
There wasnt a PEEP from you when the US bombed the heck out of Serbia!! Werent ``innocent`` Serbian civilians being killed?!
All Serbians should be held responsible for what Milosovic & his thugs did to muslims?
Now if THAT isnt hypocrisy, I dont know what is?!!

Yeah, the pious French & Germans tried to intervene peacefully in Yugoslavia! I dont have to tell you the MESS they made!
Hey, when it suits the Islamic world, call in the Marines!---you forgot to thank them; though!
But when the shoe is on the other foot; you shout MORALITY!!

I`m going out on a limb and stating that, like everybody else, I dont like the fact that Iraqi civilians are being killed. But I TRUST America, much much more than Saddam, or the French or the ``Islamic`` world! The Iraqi citizen is going to be unshackled by the decades of oppression of Saddam. Dont tell me those dancing & waving Iraqi civilians is all ``American-Zionist`` propaganda!

O yea ``true believers`` ask YOURSELVES---how many of you have stood up & fought against tyrants that rule the Islamic World?
You want to take a MORAL stand, Romair-- first start demonstrating against DICTATORS like the Saudi royal family, Mushy, Mubarak, Khamenei etc etc.

Clean your house FIRST...then you have a leg to stand on before you wail about morality. Look at it this way---if muslims spend more time waging a jihad against the tyranny of your OWN societies; then you can bring down all those pro-US puppets & make the Islamic world a better place to live in.

Until then, guys like you will opt to live in Canada...NOT Pakistan!

Then there are the rumours which prescribe the digging out of the
remains of the American soldiers from the French soil and bringing them back to US.

Sadly, petty nationalism is to be found behind the numerous token exhibitionist displays; draining of French wine down the streets, irresponsible binning of baguette, renaming of French fries to ``Freedom`` fries by two pinheads (according to the inimitable Jay Leno), and the above ludicrous suggestion about exhuming remains of said soldiers.

Patriotism is indeed the last refuge of the scoundrel! From Benazir to Nawaz and ``beyond``, and over two centuries, the pithy maxim has indeed rung true.

Romair #57
Your comments too are inaccurate and reflect your bias.
>> By what stretch of logic you are equating Vajpayee with OBL and Hitler? And remember that if you use any such logic, each and every Pakistani ruler will get included in that list much before Vajpayee.
>> Counteries taking high road - You say ``all three at great personal risk (especially Canada and Pakistan)`` Wow! Pakistan decided to abstain, not oppose. Abstaining is half agreement. Canada and India declared their opposition even before Bush even approached them. Mushy never said a clear no. Do you really think any statements by your prime minister really count before Mush?
>> Turks took a principled stance!! It appears now that it happened due to sympathy with fellow muslims and not due to any ``principled stance`` Turky`s government was planning to change prime minister so that this resolution could be reintroduced. As soon as war started Turky provided air space access to USA. And now Turky`s army has already entered Iraq to get its share of cake.

>> ``Hindu right in power in India, Christian right in power in the USA, Jewish right in power in Israel, Muslim right slowly coming into power in any Muslim democratic state paints a very rosy picture for the world``

Another wow!! So Muslim right is just about coming into power while all other right are already there. I think you missed Pakistan not due to any oversight but due to your subconcious feeling that Pakistan was never a democracy and hence its capitualing to Muslim right that made it Islamic republic and gave extra-ordinary rights to Muslims doesn`t count.

Romair, it would be great if you would just go to your own article and clarify some of your own arguments presented there.

Sadna,
China`s behavior in Tianamen`s Sq., towards Hong Kong and Taiwan is inexcusable. Ditto for Castro`s policies towards gays and his media clampdown. And you are right, these issues should be covered by the left with a great deal more responsibility and skepticism.

Shankar #48: Too many inaccuracies in your reply:

``I dont think the US needs to apologise for what it does.``

Using the same logic, do you also think that OBL and Hitler do not need to apologize for what they did? Do you think Vajpayee and Advani need to not apologize for what they did in Gujrat? If you are basing your view on one principle, i.e. ``strategic importance,`` then you should not only support USA, but OBL, Hitler and Vajpayee also.

``By taking over Iraq, it will ensure that it has access to oil for the next 100 yrs.``

Are you seriously suggesting the USA will stay in Iraq for 100 years? Which American will want to live in the Arab desert for that long, against a violent population that hates him? Would you be willing to move there? How will the US then control Iraq for 100 years? It will obviously have to install another Shah or King Fahd or Saddam or Taliban there, and attempt to remote control him. We all know how successful that has been. My guess is that the USA will not be able to/nor will it have the stamina to control Iraq for more than 2 to 3 years, or till the first major attack (terrorist or otherwise) against a US contingent, ala Beirut - whichever comes first. It is already losing interest in Afghanistan.

``Oh! & please dont tell me other countries have taken the ``high road``

Actually, most countries have taken the high road. Canada, India and Pakistan to name three. The US threatened and bribed all three. And all three, at great personal risk, (specially Pakistan and Canada) took the high road. Pakistan was ready to vote against the US in the UN. The Prime Minister, feudal as he maybe, openly stated this. That takes a lot of guts, doesn`t it? So much so, that the USA was scared away from presenting a second resolution in the Security Council, because it could not get 9 votes - Pakistan`s being the key one.

``After the obligatory murmurs about taking a ``principaled stand``, Turkey et all are slowly getting more ``cooperative``.``

Surprisingly, Turkey took a hell of a principled stance. I was quite impressed. Its parliament voted (go check the results) to not allow US troops, despite being offered billions. The US wants a democracy in Islamic countries, well the two more democratic ones (Pakistan and Turkey) have provided it with a democratic answer based on the wishes of its peoples, and perhaps against the wishes of its ruling elite - they have voted against the USA. Turkey now wants to get involved because it does not want an independent Kurdish state in Iraq - this is a very unprincipled stance. After the US-Iraq war, there maybe a Kurd-Turk war.

``When did the frikking French suddenly become Islam`s knight in shining armor?! ``

Let me enlighten you about when this happened. The London Economist took a survey of Arabs asking them which three non-Arab countries they hated the most and which they respected the most. Israel, USA, and UK were on the first list. And France and Iran on the second. France and Germany now have 10 million Muslims and only 700,000 Jews. The Muslim population growth rate there is three times that of other Frenchies. I believe the ratio of Muslims in France is close to the ratio of Blacks in the USA. This, and the fact, that the German and French gora populations have heavily protested against the war has made their govts. oppose it,. Schroder actually won his election specifically on this stance, and I think Chirac will win the next one due to his opposition to the war and the Spanish premier`s party may lose their next one, since 80% or more Spaniards oppose this war (though their leadership supports it) i.e. France may not be Islam`s knight, but their population has a conscious, and does see the USA`s actions as unlawful.

``. I`ve heard more than a few Americans---ESP the WW2 vets (who, incidentally are a powerful voting block) lament why their buddys died on the beaches of Normandy.``

Actually, according to the great American author Mr. Gore Vidal (one of my favorites) - a WWII vet himself - (I hope you are not offended if I take his word over your experiences in WWII), 90% of the living American WWII vets are against the current US attack on Iraq. Please read his interviews.

``The Christian right has joined hands with the Jews in an unprecedented way, after 9/11.``

This has been the Christian right`s stance for a while. Perhaps you have just discovered it. It is quite an ironic stance, considering the fact that the Christians in Palestine are on the side of the Muslim Palestinians. And that the Israelis do not distinguish between Palestinian Muslims and Christians, when they kill - priests are beaten up just like maulvis by Israelis. Edward Said and Hannan Ashrawi, two of the most eloquent Middle Easterners and Palestinian spokespersons are Chistian. Infact, if I was the head of Palestine, I would appoint all the Christian Palestinians to the top positions, since they are far more impressive than the Muslim Palestinians, in opposing the Israeli occupation.

Only an idiotic Christian right supports the killing of its own co-religionists by people of another religion? If the US Christian right, under the leadership of Bush, has become the keeper of the flag in the USA (much like the Jewish extremists in Israel under Sharon), then I am afraid the USA and the world is not in good hands.

Hindu right in power in India, Christian right in power in the USA, Jewish right in power in Israel, Muslim right slowly coming into power in any Muslim democratic state paints a very rosy picture for the world. Doens`t it? Are you suggesting the current conflict in Iraq, initiated by the USA, will only make these groups weaker?

``On the contrary, when countries are terrorised, it only makes them hardened & stubborn.``

You need to apply this forumula both ways. This is exactly the logic behind the attack on the WTC. Had the USA govt. not tried to screw around in other countries, the people in WTC would still be alive - not to mention the people in the countries that the US screwed around in. The more the USA attacks other countries, the more hardened their people will become also, and the more they will target Americans. If the USA commits terrorism against other countries, through uniformed personnel, then what would stop people in those countries terrorising the USA through non-uniformed personnel? Is that the kind of world you want to live in?

Iraq and Afghanistan were easy targets, since these two were decimated countries already, under the control of unpopular regimes. Things will really start getting interesting when the USA targets countries like Iran, which can defend themselves to some extent.

In essence, this battle is the USA and Israel vs. the views of the people of the rest of the world. I cannot think of any other war, which one country fought in such an isolated manner. If you do not believe me, perhaps you will believe your own countryman (twice) and what he has written in Newsweeek:

``In fact, while the United States has the backing of a dozen or so governments, it has the support of a majority of the people in only one country in the world, Israel. If that is not isolation, then the word has no meaning.`` (http://www.msnbc.com/news/885222.asp?0nw=n2d#BODY)

Somewhere in a cave, OBL must be smiling. Because he is getting exactly what he wants, i.e. a Clash of Civilisations. Luckily, European populations have shown a lot of far-sightedness, by siding with the Muslim civilization (in this case) and not with the USA.

If this cycle continues, then I would predict that within the next twenty years, someone will set of a nuclear explosion in New York.

More later.......

Veeresh:

I am in hotels, but in the sales side. Actually, I should say was, because I am making another transition soon. Moving to the ecommerce strategy side, so pretty disconnected from hotel operations per se.

Saminasha #54
The consistent use by leftists of `democracy` as reference point to criticise the US MORE and criticise out-and-out promoters of autocracy like Bin Laden LESS, is a bit inconsistent too I think. I don`t remember leftists protesting lack of democracy in the communist country of the erstwhile USSR, or China or Cuba for example.

China an unashamed autocracy run by its Communist party, does plenty of business with other autocracies such as in Burma, including helping arm dictators such as the North Korean one and Pakistani Zia Ul Haq with nuclear weapons, perhaps Iran too(the anti-nuclear cause keeps being espoused by leftists in spite of this). And the joke is that in China, Islamist-leaning activists are simply beheaded by the state and hey and behold there is nary a squeak from anyone, leftists, Islamists or Western promoters of `democracy`.

Obviously, I support alternate point of views being put out by left leaners or anyone else, but to me the `humanist` leftist polemic looks quite as self-contradictory as the evil capitalist polemic and the we-are-extremists-only-due-to-lack-of-democracy Islamist polemic.

uHHHHM Stuka, what are you, hotelier or PR type? Just curious . . .

Sadna,

I don`t get the impression that left press thinks that the autocracies in the Islamic world are legitimate. What they do tned to continually point out is that while the US consistantly talks about ``democracy`` they install, support and do business with regimes that in no way practice the kinds of democratic actions we do here. Jordan is a good example; dissent is dangerous for the average Jordanian citizen, let alone a Palestinian refugee dweller or a woman....and any honest lefty will acknowledge that...(however-there is also a school of Marxist thought that believes each region or country must evolve into democracy through trial and error...now this is an idea I am still evaluating.)

The other thing to remember is how the US`s interests in human rights and democracy increase manifold before we decide to invade a country to remove a tyrant we installed previously. Who cared about the status of Afghani women before we invaded, in terms of mainstream media?
Who was reporting about the sanction related deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children before Condi Rice came up with this ingenious rationale: ``We need to invade Iraq and remove Hussein so we can life sanctions`` . The left. Now the mainstream media reports these conditions of suffering to convince us that our coup d`etats will improve these conditions when it was our meddling that contributed greatly to them and installed the dictators that oppressed their own people!

Finally, I see very little among the left media that condones extremist Islamic govts-there is the idea that we have no right to impose democracy by the point of a missile-and that is a very different idea.

Samina #47
I don`t like what I have read of him, myself, because he comes down very hard on Islam, I believe. Its harder to dismiss the quotes from prominent leftists in this writeup though and his observation that prominent leftists donot raise a voice against Islamic extremism happens to corroborate my own impression.

I oppose the war due to the threat of potential grievous loss to Iraqis and their national interest and due to the increased threat of `unbridled` unilateralism from the US or any other country in future. At the same time, I don`t want to be blind to why others who oppose the war, do so.

Shankar:

I think Faisaluno has a pretty good grasp on the ground reality. Your post, while factual to some extent, does not really relate to what he is saying.

He says:

``u.s. by aligning so closely with regressive muslim governments, (a relationship arising out of cold war and oil) ``

cannot be denied. It is more useful in the short term for the US to have good relations with leaders who can deliver rather than democracies, though the latter is more fruitful.

``and by being so one sided on the issue of israel has become very unpopular in the muslim world (emotional impact of israel issue has been greatly minimized in u.s. media). ``

Here, I belive , one can keep on arguing about the chicken and egg question. During the 1956 Suez crisis, the US openly came out against UK, France and Israel when they attempted the invasion of Egypt. The US ``pro-Israel`` position came about because the Arab position right through the 60S was limited to the destruction of Israel.

By that logic, all of the west was pro Israel because nobody shared the Arab vision of throwing every Israeli man, woman and child into the sea. The wars of 1967 and 1973 were both designed to destroy the state of Israel, not to revert to any UN sanctioned boundaries.

In the US, the liberals tended to be pro Israel as compared to conservatives. It took the terrorism of the 70s and 80s to shift conservative opinion to a pro Israeli position. Ofcourse, Sept 11 was a turning point because now the christion right has started referring to the Occupied territories as Judea and Samarea, therefore not boding well for the Palestenians.

On a personal note, being a refugee is not a big deal. I am the son of refugees. So is Faisaluno himself. There are refugees in South Asia, The majority of the Israeli population in 1948 was not European, it was Jewish refugees from Arab lands in the middle east. The transfer of poulations is a reality. There cannot be a ``neutral`` US position if it involves changing the very nature of Israel.

BTW, the Indo-Pak thing, I will be very surprised if the levels of Hospitality last another 10 years.

Umm, last sentence of my previous post, I meant hostility, not hospitality..guess my profession caught up with me for a sec.

faisaluno,

On a related note, dont you think its time that the ``rest of the world``, notably the Muslim world, took a step back & reflect why Americans think & behave the way they do?

When push comes down to shove, foreign policy isnt a popularity contest. Its implemented to further a country`s strategic interests. I dont think the US needs to apologise for what it does.

US needs oil--plain & simple---for the forseeable future. They will make sure they get it--by hook or by crook. By taking over Iraq, it will ensure that it has access to oil for the next 100 yrs. Rebuilding Iraq will take a lot of money. Those contracts are going to American companies. Why the heck do you think the French & Russians are squealing their heads off? for HUMANITARIAN reasons?!--dont make me laugh! They are scarted sh*tless that all the sweetheart deals they`ve made ``under the table`` with Saddam will be null & void.

Oh! & please dont tell me other countries have taken the ``high road``! What happened last few weeks has really shown how low countries can go to ``sell`` their votes. For eg, Turkey was the most blatant--asking for 30+ billion dollars. It was plain & simple shameless horsetrading.

Now that the US has shown that its going alone, if need be--see how they are changing their tune. After the obligatory murmurs about taking a ``principaled stand``, Turkey et all are slowly getting more ``cooperative``.Even that piece of trash Chirac is saying that if Saddam uses WMD, France will join the coalition---too late; pal!

When did the frikking French suddenly become Islam`s knight in shining armor?! They are just out to protect their own interests. What France has done has angered America. Bush used that old Texan phrase---its time to show your cards. Yup, the French have shown their cards, alright. When their ass is in the slammer, the French have been known to go crying to the US--not once; but twice in the 20th century. Seems like they have a short memory. But the US doesnt. I`ve heard more than a few Americans---ESP the WW2 vets (who, incidentally are a powerful voting block) lament why their buddys died on the beaches of Normandy.

Its when a country is isolated, it gets to know who its REAL friends are. AS for all the countries who denounce American aqrrogance; look at your own faces in the mirror & ask yourselves how magnanimous their own foreign policy has been .

The US supports Israel not just because of the Jewish lobby now. The Christian right has joined hands with the Jews in an unprecedented way, after 9/11. The Christian right is now openly advocating Isreal`s right to be the guardians & stewarts of the Holy Land. You can thank the ``hero of the Muslim world OBL---& Al-Qeeda`` for that. When conservative Christians & Jews (who, historically have been liberals) have joined hands like this; there is NO way the US will turn its back on Israel. In fact, if Saddam attacks Israel, the US has NO problem with Isreal joining the coalition.

Its WRONG--terribly WRONG, to assume the US will bend to increased terrorism. On the contrary, when countries are terrorised, it only makes them hardened & stubborn. One more major 9/11-like strike & a Crusade will be declared---ofcourse with the usual US spin. But there is NO way that Americans will be blackmailed. They still remember those long lines during the oil embargo---& Americans DONT blame Israel for it!

There is also another trend that Pakistan should be wary of. By sheer numbers & socio-economic clout, Indian Americans are beginning to realise their political strenght in the US. Increasingly, the Indian lobby is getting politically active in the US. They are modelling their political strategy closely with the Jewish lobby. Just this past Nov election, I was surprised at the number of political fund raisers I was invited to, by the local Indo-American community.

I went to one--cos the Congressman was promising to give parity to mental health & was ``pro-medicine``. The dinner hosted by Indian physicians started out talking about health care issues; but soon turned into an anti-Pakistan bashing fest. The Congressman, who knew very little about India, was extremely pleased to note how openly pro-Israel Indians are & affirmed that he will pay special attention to champion Indian causes cos--``the worlds 2 largest democracies SHOULD have common interests``.

I know, these politicians will tell people what they want to hear, ESP during a fund raiser. But by sheer numbers, Indians far far outnumber Pakistanis in the US. The fact that many Pakis are making a beeline to Canada & the Pakistani politically active counterparts are far too few, it makes a difference. Maybe not so much today; but DEFINITELY tomorrow. If India is doing a lot of back office work for all the top US companies; it IS in their interest not to have Bangalore nuked.

If I`ve learnt anything these past few yrs, Indian diplomats have OUTCLASSED Pakistani diplomats in the international arena. Pakistan has a lot of advantages--``on paper``. Its America`s favourite poodle, its easier for Pakistan to get a sympathetic ear from Islamic countries. But, what is happening? NOBODY, including the Ummah is twisting her arm, even when anti-muslim pogroms haqve taken place, even when India & Isreal are openly cooperating in the arms arena.

You guys still think Kashmir is gonna get ``freedom``? India`s diplomats have successfully convinced the world that the Kashmiri sepratists are not ``freedom fighters``, but ``terrorists``--with direct links with Al-Qeeda! Heheh...Pakistan could do well if it hired some wily brahmins in her diplomatic corps:))

It all boils down to ``might is right``---esp when Allah isnt known to intervene in these frivolous matters. Now why in the world does the Islamic world complain so streneously when the axiom ``might is right`` is applied?

Allah is Almighty--so HE is Alrighty--no question about that!...

But almost every leader in Muslim countries grabs power by MIGHT!
If ANYBODY should understand (& appreciate) that axiom--its Pakistanis. Your awam has never challenged the might of your military. Your military has, in turn, behaves like a willing whore in front of Almighty Amrika. But somehow, when the kafir nations apply the rule ``might is right``; it seems your undies get all bunched up & you start squealing for JUSTICE!!!

There was some talk of the French dropping millions of pretzels on the White House (in reference to our Pres.select`s choking on a pretzel incident)...

Sadna,

Daniel Pipes...ugh....my husband refuses to read his work anymore; says its pretty bigotted...

#36 by bharatvaasi on March 20, 2003 7:00am PT

[Like Jay says, and other have said the same thing, ummah can be bought with a few dollars. That is what they are interested in.]

Post 9/11, a few days after Pakistan`s cooperation had been secured in the War on Terror by that famous midnight ``you`re with us or against us`` telephone call by George Bush to Musharraf, when Seymour Hersh, the respected American journalist, expressed surprise at how easily Pakistan`s nod had been secured, an unnamed intelligence officer said that Pakis would sell their mothers for a few dollars. The same applies to the Ummah as well.

stuka:

i beg to differ. ruling classes in muslim countries are much more regressive in comparison to ruling classes in india or even in latin america. only a small number of families have access to levers of powers in countries like saudi arabia, egypt, jordan, iraq, pakistan, indonesia. ruling classed have instituted a system of license raj to protect their interests and this in turn has resulted in a creation of an economic system that is not fulfilling the basic needs of large sections of the population.

u.s. by aligning so closely with regressive muslim governments, (a relationship arising out of cold war and oil) and by being so one sided on the issue of israel has become very unpopular in the muslim world (emotional impact of israel issue has been greatly minimized in u.s. media). mullahs and religious conservatives have exploited this resentment of ruling class and the u.s. to gain popularity and in most of these countries, mullahs will any elections hands down.

i believe that certain members of this administration have identified this threat especially with respect to saudi arabia. these people realize that there is a good possibility that the saudi government might loose power sometime in the future. this will result in u.s loosing control of saudi oil. in part, war in iraq is like an option that will payoff should the saudi government fall from power. democracy in iraq will be allowed to take root as long as pro washington government can be assured.

Hallo... I like the plain old FINGER FRIES name. And... French Toast (Freedom Toast) is also called Bombay Toast. Maybe the Indians make them better? I think Bombay eggs are tastier.

-zensufi-

Faisaluno:

``scene has been repeated many times over the last three hundred years and as long as muslim rulers continue to treat their own people with contempt, the scene will be replayed well into the future. ``

Why point out Muslim? The people of Panama ware not putting themselves on the line to save Noriega either. The same statement..

``scene has been repeated many times over the last three hundred years and as long as rulers continue to treat their own people with contempt, the scene will be replayed well into the future. `` holds true in a universal sense.

Urstruly Sahib,

You mullahs are making a fuss about this war because your enemy has bigger guns. You correctly described the horrors of war in details (post #9). Ironically, here’s a quote from your Maudoodi, which provides the blue print of the foreign policy of an “Islamic state”. Note how supportive he is of pre-emptive, unprovoked wars, carried out in the name of Islam. Enjoy.

“Human relations are so integrated that no state can have complete freedom of action under its principles unless the same principles are in force in a neighboring country. Therefore, both for its safety and the general reform, a “Muslim party” will not be content with the establishment of Islam in just one area alone. It should try to expand in all directions. On one hand it will spread its ideology, on the other it will invite people of all nations to accept its creed, for salvation lies only therein. If this Islamic state has power and resources it will fight and destroy non-Islamic governments and establish Islamic states in their place.” Haqiqat-e-Jihad (Reality of Jihad); Lahore: Taj Company Ltd., 1964; page 64

stuka #37 you write ``I am impressed.`` (on the start of war prediction).
Thanks. I also do tarot cards, palmistry, horoscopes and crystal ball gazing. :-)

You continue: ``Now hopefully your prediction will come true about the end of the war as well. ``
Lets hope so. For the sake of ordinary Iraqis and uniformed people in harm`s way from all sides.

anNy #34 Good to see you back. Even though I suppose it is for a short while. And even if you did take a small swing at fact maroring mainstream america, who in fact are the nicest people on earth. Along with mainstream folks from Karachi, I may add. And I should also mention the nice folks of Islamabad (except for the bearded goats in the national assembly and our self-appointed president), Lahore, Delhi (except for that cab driver who drove me to the tourist rip off shop when I wanted to see lal kilah, and of course except for the BJP pols), Bombay, Dacca, Mexico City, Nairobi.
Anyway, good to see your post.

anNy #34
You might like to read these contrasting points of view:

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=303470
Great Trouble for America


http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=303591
WHY THE LEFT love OSAMA

By DANIEL PIPES

what disturbs me the most is that the US population is driven by the new propaganda of fear. Hopefully, before the next election cycle enough people will snap out of their collective knee jerk support for our Dear Leader and use the corrective measures of democracy. Still doesn`t solve the problem of getting through the next 2 years but its the only solution.
-

besides, America can rewrite/delete history since history is always written by the victors, never the vanquished. IF the victor eventually becomes the vanquished then a new version of history will be written. History is never objective.
I am john doe

Tommorow when history will be written praising the great fortitude and foresight of whoever ``wins``, remember that you were witness to the fact that everybody lost!!

Hi, would you like to share with us why your handle is ``gullu gullu`` please and thank you.

gullahbaba
the freedom-french fry issue is more amusing than anything else
whats blowing my khopri is the rhetoric, fact maroring, emotional bullshit and downright bakwaas thats coming from institutions, representatives of those institutions and collectively, mainstream america... after being told all along that they be the civilized, its disturbing to see them behaving like a jamat-e-islami jalooos gone wild.. lets hope this madness ends quick and as few as can be people are hurt on both sides
big fat hug :0)
anNy

shah #28 shah my friend! how many times have i begged and pleaded with people on chowk not to go by what someone else says, but rather to go by what their own God-given minds tell them?? Why do you then torment me by coming back and saying ``but look, the stated aim of the war in iraq is to get terrorists``??
But you are a good chap and I am a patient man. So let me say that by all logic Mr. and Mrs. Joe Schmoe Iraqi and their six wonderful children will miss Saddam Hussein no more than the Afghans miss being ruled by mullah omar or the bengalis miss being pushed around by general tikka khan.
So: puhleeze!! trust your mind. Words are cheap (why do you think I am on chowk??)

What irony!

The people the ummah consider to be kafirs, not worthy of being given equal rights are the ones who are protesting this war. But the chosen ones, like the Arabs and the rest of the ummah are silent not a peep out of these guys.

Like Jay says, and other have said the same thing, ummah can be bought with a few dollars. That is what they are interested in. They are incapable of thinking and developing themselves. Those few individulas who can, like Salaam, are declared apostates and thrown out.

Sad, really sad. Pathetic I say. That it is the Kafirs who will have to rescue the ummah for it is they who are protesting against this war and have stuck their necks out - French, Germans, Russians.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee.

TAHmed:

Sajni #36 Its a deal. We shall put this discussion on hold until the war takes place, and THEN see if it indeed was over in two weeks and placed Iraq on the road to democracy.

There is a tiny possibility that there will be no war, and Saddam will chose the option presented to him by Bush in his speech to quit his job and go to some other country. But I fear that will probably not happen, and it looks like war will start around March 20th (a couple of days after the ultimatum given by Bush has expired). Which means, you and I shall talk again around April 10 or so. And we can do that on the topmost article on chowk at the time. And Urstruly can be the referee. ``


Damn!!! Right on the money. Wow!! Too bad you don`t work for our company otherwise you would have won four rounds of drinks from the office pool. I am impressed. Now hopefully your prediction will come true about the end of the war as well.

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arjun_m:

one reason saddam went to war with iran was cause he was afraid otherwise, the iranian revolutionaries may stir up trouble and incite shiite iraqis to bring regime change in iraq as well.

re tahmed32 #24
The official reasons for war are given here
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030319-1.html

It is not, as you claim, to make life better for average Iraqis. It is to ``to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001. `` Lying till the very end...

By the way you can rest assured that you will see happy Iraqis at the end of it all. Tucker Eskew, a protege of Lee Atwater , has been given the task of producing images of happy Iraqis. By golly, he will produce those images.

initial reports indicated that there would be around 100,000 troops defending baghdad. assumption was that at least 10% would have to be neutralized before u.s. army would start the march into baghdad. news report now indicate that the number of troops around baghdad is much lower. assessment now is that march into baghdad is going to be a cakewalk.

scene has been repeated many times over the last three hundred years and as long as muslim rulers continue to treat their own people with contempt, the scene will be replayed well into the future.

Urstruly


Even with your perverted view of history, why are you putting the onus on me? Don`t you repeatedly condone and even encourage violence against Indians?

Oh sorry!! I forgot!! Hindus, Jews etc do not count as human beings to you.

Ref arjun_m #23

[You dont know sh!t from shinola... ]

Perhaps you meant to say, ``You don`t know Shiite from shinola`` ;)

Romair #23 you write ``so that the people can think about overthrowing Saddam and not about where to get their next meal. ``
Alas, one can think about a lot of things. One can think about overthrowing Saddam. One can think about being on an island where one is the only male among a long lost tribe of film actresses and exotic belly dancers. One can think about finding a wormhole in the space-time continuum and emerging in a mirror universe. One can think of many things. I am sure Iraqis thought a lot about life without Saddam the past couple of decades (particularly if they had the misfortune of being interviewed by one of Saddam`s torture-specialist-bast!rds).
Am I making my point clear???

Attention Sajni (if still lurking around): On March 9 I said the war would probably start around March 20.
http://63.194.130.82/cgi-bin/show_article.cgi?aid=00001924&channel=gulberg&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1#interact
It is now March 20 and war is starting on the predicted date (no applause for my accurate prediction please, thank you), the deadline for Saddam to scoot out of Iraq having passed 30 minutes ago.
I had said we shall talk again on April 10 by which time the war would be over. I fear I was being too conservative, and suspect the war will be over in 2 weeks from now.

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The two key points of this debate are as follows, in my opinion:

1) Do the people of Iraq actually want the USA to attack them?
2) Will the situation in Iraq be better after the USA attacks than it was before?

If the answer to 1) is, ``Yes,`` then the debate is over, and the USA should attack Iraq, regardless of what any non-Iraqi says. the US will be on a humanitarian mission.

If the answer to 1) is, ``No,`` then the USA is committing state terrorism of the highest order. And George Bush is a bigger terrorist than OBL, since he will have displaced and killed a lot more people - and that too in broad daylight, right in front of everyone, with solid proof - than OBL ever could.

The people who are supporting this war need to give solid evidence that the answer to 1) is, ``Yes.`` So far, I have seen nothing in this regard. Certain interactors keep pointing out that this attack is for the Iraqis` benefit, yet they do not have statistics, Iraqi opinion polls etc. to back their claims (or maybe I have missed them, when they presented them).

If their is no solid proof of a, ``Yes`` answer, then I am afraid anyone supporting this attack is no different than those who support OBL`s attacks, i.e. individuals whose belief in a person, leader, ideology, concept, a country etc. is so solid that they are willing to support the most violent actions of such a country/leader etc., without asking for any solid proof. This is why both Bush and OBL have a solid group of supporters who never question their intentions.

In my opinion, Iraqi people are caught between two hellfires. They were already suffering due to what Saddam was doing. Since 1991, they have been additionally suffering due to USA sanctions. And now they will be bombed to death by the USA. Both Saddam and the USA have their own personal interests and not the interests of Iraq in mind.

Due to this, in my opinion, Iraq will be much worse off, once the USA is done bombing it.

Rebuilding a country is no joke. It requires a lot of staying power and motivation, over decades. Something only the citizens of that country possess. Even if we assume the USA is well-intentioned, how long will the it be motivated enough to solve Iraq`s problems? Will it be willing to dump in $20 billion a year into Iraq for twenty years, while its own voters demand health reform for Americans? Will it be willing to fight anti-American Iraqis in streetfights for ten years in Iraq? What if some Iraqi blows up a US building in Iraq killing 200+ Americans, like what happened in Beirut? What motivation do the American taxpayers and Congressmen have in rebuilding a country none of them have even visited?

When the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan, it stated that it was doing it for the good of the Afghans (much like the USA is stating about Iraq). When the USA took on the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, the USA stated that it was doing it for the benefit of the Afghans also. Both countries were actually fighting their superpower politics in a third country. When the USA recruited the Mujahideen (the parents of the Taliban), it stated (literally: read Brezensky`s interview) they would not be harmful in the long run. And when the USA bombed Afghanistan and removed the Taliban recently, it stated it was helping the Afghans also.

Is Afghanistan a better place now then it was had the Soviets and Americans not started, ``helping`` it twenty five years ago? It is infact a much worse place for its citizens now.

The Americans will win the war in Iraq in a few days. They will get rid of Saddam, and thus achieve their objective. With mission accomplished, votes gained in the next Presidential election, they will slowly lose interest in the Iraqis, and will be worried only about the oil.

In the process, they will kill a lot of people, and hundreds of thousands will be turned into refugees. According to the BBC, in Iraq, ``Pregnant women have been crowding surgeries demanding caesarean operations so they can give birth before any bombing or invasion begins.`` (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2865785.stm) (Do tahmad and stuka approve of this?)

After that, they will administrate Iraq for a year or so. Conditions will probably start improving in Iraq (Tommy Franks will probably be better than Saddam, since it is hard to be worse). Then they will realize that it is impossible for one country to re-build another, since it takes decades. They will also realize that a democratic Iraq will result in an extremely anti-USA and anti-Israel elected govt. And they will realize the fact that a democratic Iraq, with a Shia majority, will want to link itself with USA`s arch enemy, i.e. Iran. So they will then move onto their next conquest (maybe Iran).

They will leave behind a power vaccuum in Iraq, while supporting any pro-US Iraqi leader (who will always be non-democratic thug). This will lead to all kinds of wierd problems in Iraq, which will eventually result in the emergence of some sort of Iraqi Taliban. The US will then attack Iraq again to remove this new, ``anti-US`` force in Iraq. And the cycle will continue (remember the US did support this same Sadddam at one point. Rumsfeld shook hands with him when he called on him).

Reminds of another similar country, i.e. Afghanistan. The only difference being that the stakes in Iraq will be a lot higher.

The only way for a country to reform is through internal turbulence (much like what is happening in Iran and Pakistan). The US, if it is sincere, should support anti-Saddam forces in Iraq from a distance. And it should lift the sanctions, so that the people can think about overthrowing Saddam and not about where to get their next meal.

our people for obvious reasons are prone to this. what is their excuse? and as the coverage of this on mass media shows, these people unlike us are not afraid to air their dirty laundry. and as someone wrote in the nytimes, how many of these people will be dropping bombs in iraq?

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/16/national/16CADE.html

Women Recount Cadet Life: Forced Sex and Fear
By MICHAEL JANOFSKY with DIANA JEAN SCHEMO


TUCSON, March 14 — Like other women accepted into the United States Air Force Academy, Sharon Fullilove was a star of her high school graduating class. Her academy application in 1999 included letters of commendation from President Bill Clinton and Vice President Al Gore.

But in November 1999, six months after entering the academy, she quit — devastated, she says, from being raped by a fellow cadet and convinced that she would find no help in the academy`s male-dominated culture.

The daughter of an Air Force colonel, Ms. Fullilove said she believed that a majority of women in the academy are raped or molested, and that most choose not to report it because they fear an official investigation would expose them to shame, ridicule and retribution, if not dismissal. About 18 percent of the 4,200-member cadet corps are women.

``During the school year, you talk to people it has happened to, even upperclassmen, and they all say the same thing,`` Ms. Fullilove, 23, said in an interview here, where she is attending the University of Arizona. ``They tell you to expect getting raped, and if it doesn`t happen to you, you`re one of the rare ones. They say if you want a chance to stay here, if you want to graduate, you don`t tell. You just deal with it.``

Ms. Fullilove`s views are shared by dozens of other women who have left the academy before graduating, saying they were victims of rape and other sexual attacks. Many have come forward in recent months, recounting their ordeals and expressing their outrage, as Ms. Fullilove did, about an environment that they say favors men and protects them against complaints of sexual assault. She said that long after her rape, she learned that her assailant worked at the time as a counselor who answered the academy`s hot line for women who want to report a rape or other sexual attacks.

The Air Force acknowledges that at least 56 cases of rape or other sexual assaults at the academy have been investigated in the last 10 years, though only one male cadet has faced a court-martial as a result of any accusation, in 1995. He was acquitted. Eight other male cadets have been expelled in sexual attacks since 1996. The academy concedes that it has no records of sexual assaults in the first 20 years of women`s admission, starting in 1976.

Stuka #12

It is called `being loyal than the king`. Perhaps in a mad rush to register yourself as the loyal subject your mind has taken leave of good senses.

Please go through your post # 12 again. If you only replace Bal Thackeray`s name with that of Modi, Advani, and Bajpayee, your post actually describes the current state of affairs in India. If your memory serves you, you might remember that India has just gone through a genocide of minority where 2000 Muslims were murered in cold blood a few months ago. Isn`t it just like Saddam who killed his Shiite population sometimes ago?. And just like Saddam, who killed his own people, the rebellious Kurds, your leaders are also killing their own people, the rebellious Kashmiris. I dont see a difference there. The only difference I see is that if Saddam has killed half a million, you have killed 80,000, but you are getting there. And just as Saddam invaded his neighbors, India has invaded its neighbors too, not once or twice but 4 times. It has dismembered the neighboring country, and because of full participation of Indian agents and plaincloth army personnel another genocide occured in 1971. Just like Iraq. India has committed another act of aggression and occupied the terrory (Siachin) of neighboring country. Just like Iraq did to Kuwait. India is in material breach of several UN resolutions on Kashmir since 1947. Just like Iraq. India has violated every international pact that it made with its neighbors. Tashkant Pact was broken by agression in 1971; Simla Agreement was broken in 1984 when agression on Siachin took place. Just like Iraq when it did acts of aggression against Iran breaking long standing pacts. And just like Iraq, India has weapons of mass destruction, and unlike Iraq it not only declares them openly but also threatens its neighbors with them and in order to make its threats credible amasses one million strong army at its neighbors borders.

Now please tell me how is India different from Iraq if we judge by your standards? And you have balls to write that you are not a hypocrite? So here I give you a chance to prove what you claim about what you are. Write an appeal to Bush also pleading him to attack India after Iraq because India is also guilty of every charge that Iraq is charged with today. I will join my voice with yours and I will beg Bush too, to help liberate the oppressed people in India and save its neighbors from its tyranny and agression. But something tells me that you wont and you cant because calling others hypocrites is much easier. Isn`t it?

On the eve of yet another oily war , I am writing these lines right from the heart of Kuwait city , the so called `` Burj Al Tahreer `` or the `` Liberation tower`` a kuwaiti monument of their `` Freedom `` from Iraq.
The war times have already started here with the proviniong of Gas masks and drills to go to sheltors for us who are on duties. Already most of the forigner colleages and many Kuwaitis have left the country, fear speaks out.

Saddam is a dictator but waht about other Arab monachies? Why Americans are not intereseted to change the regime in these countries only because of their vested interests. In kuwait , for instance there are many many people called Bedouins ( The aborignals ) who are denied citizenship by the government. There is hardly any democracy. But who cares as long as u are looting petro dollars!!!

I won`t blame US for this tyranny in Middle East or anywhere in the world coz they have the system and power to exhibit it. To blame are the people themselves , sleepy people, especially those living in Arab world.

Hai jurm-sagheefi ki saza marg i mufajjat

( Punishment of weakness is simply the death of interests )

Are they Arabs or Iraqis ( Kuwaitis, Shaamis , Egyptians etc ) or Muslims??? A huge identity crises!!!

I don`t understand why every third world loser, every fit-for-nothing, can`t-do-anything-better national has this incredible urge to judge Americans as fools. It is a wonder how every jealous Frenchie and third worlder thinks about the most successful country in the human history as the nation of fools.

TAhmed: Exactly.

gullu gullu: You write ``nations exercising their will without infringing on rights of others`
I think you mean ``dictators exercising their will``. If you really knew what you were writing about, you would not equate the Iraqi nation with the dictator Saddam Hussein.

And finally, the dreaded ``Hamburger`` too might find itself transformed

into a ``Texas Patriot Patty``.


Ras

Ansari #11 At our office cafeteria, I had for many years seen French Toast labelled as Texas Toast and assumed that this was simply one of those little switches one sees when crossing the atlantic, with the first floor sinking to become the ground floor, and the electricity changing from a tooth-shattering 220 to a mere hair-raising 110, and so forth.

correction to my post below... of course the first floor does not sink to the ground floor in the US, it in facts sits where it is supposed to sit, on the first floor.
But dont mind me: When I am not paying attention, I also drive on the right hand side in Pakistan. And on the left hand side in the US. And I turn the car vipers on when I mean to turn on the lights in both countries, since car vipers are where gears should be in right hand cars that they drive in left hand countries. And just when you get used to cars in Pakistan, you come back to the US and and they switch vipers again. Thankfully I dropped the damned silent ``u`` that the brits stick into every other word and which someone in the US wisely took out. However, I wish the same wise bloke (or guy, the US equivalent) had taken the damned unsilent ``c`` out of the language altogether (``c`` is either posing as an ``s`` or a ``k`` anyway, and so kan safely be taken out.)
And then we come to ``potatoes`` and ``potaaaatoes``. I think I need not go on any further and get back to do some honest work.

Urstruly:

What if? What if the Iraqi army does not put up a fight? What if the Republican Guard surrenders?

What if the citizens of Basra celebrate the liberation of their city by Americans?

Will you then apologize to the Iraqi people for defending a monster?

BTW, in this specific post I am not defending the administration.

My personal opinion is that if I was a citizen of India, living in an India ruled by a Bal Thackeray, an individual who had gassed minorites such as Muslims, an individual whose sons ran rampant and thought that the country was their Baap kee Jagir, then Urstruly, I would have begged with God for an American invasion. That is why I am not a hypocrite.

In the same situation however, if Bal Thackeray was the dictator of India, and he ruled India with an iron fist as Saddam does Iraq, and he had used poison gas to put down troublesome minorities such as Muslims just as Sddam did with the Kurds, then you would have begged the Americans to attack India. Innocent Indians dying in such an attack would not have bothered you one bit and you would have used moral arguments to convince others of the justness of the American cause.

That is why you are a hypocrite and your attempt at righteousness is like the flickering tongue of a serpent.

Afrasiyab sahab,

``French toast was invented by an American named John French.``

LOL. French toast invent kaise hota hai? :o)

Respectfully,

Aamir

As a proud American I am deeply offended by the language used against my President and my country in this article. If you hate my country so much then why don’t you go back where you came from? Do you honestly believe that tomorrow will be a day any different from any other day in America? I don’t think so. Tomorrow when fire and brimstone will shower upon the Iraqi people, we will be on our commute to our place of work and to our schools just like any other day. Tomorrow when thermobaric bombs will suffocate the oxygen from the Iraqi bomb shelters and babies will die suckling their mother’s teats your children here will go to kindergartens just like any other day. Wouldn’t they? Tomorrow when those mothers will be gasping for air, wishing that they die but their children live, wouldn’t your women be busy figuring out lasagna or meatballs for the day. Wouldn’t they? And tomorrow when Iraqi’s will be skewered alive onto the uranium depleted missiles coming from heavens and earth and left and right and above and below, wouldn’t your V8s be purring on the turnpikes and parkways just like any other day. Wouldn’t they? And as the eyes in the skies will blink and guide the hell-fires and help them cruise to find those Iraqis who will run but are told that they had death wish therefore, they must die, wouldn’t at that time bulls will be stampeding through the wall street just like any other day. Wouldn’t they?

For us nothing will change. It will be just another day. And Isn’t that what our President promised us; that he would protect us Americans. Didn’t he? Tomorrow when America will go to war, not a single bullet will be fired on American soil and not a single American will die. Give the man credit, you ungrateful immigrants from third world.

The history has to move on. Great empires rise and fall. The Americans developed a very good system and had a whole century to them.

It just required one person like Bush to trigger the decay.

But I really feel for an average American whose whose own world was limited to his county; and FOX provided him the worldview.

As for the French, let me give an interesting statistic. The GNP of all 58 Muslim countries is $1200 Billion. The GNP of France alone is $1500 Billion.

People have to realise that morality and ethics are like the clothes you wear and the intentions are like the body you have. Everybody tries to cover the body with nice clothes, to look good. However if the body is lopsided the clothes can`t do much.

Bush as his oil men covet Iraqs oil, so no amount of dressing it with morality is going to make the greed look good.

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...this country is going to the $hitter, led by bush, cheney, and rumsfeld...sorry state of affairs...

I didn`t take it seriously when someone first told me about this ``freedom`` instead of ``french`` crap...it really is appauling that while in the middle of this huge world crisis, we are taking time out to eliminate the word french from our vocabulary. I am truly embarassed to be a texan right now. :)

sara

I was listening to NPR the other day and some comentator was saying that French Fries maybe understandable however French toast was invented by an American named John French. It is after his name that the bread is referred to as French bread.
I just could not stop laughing.

By the way, I understand that you are angry and frustrated, we all are, with all that is going on but please make an attempt to make it a little more coherent. This was hard to read, hard to follow and hard to understand in the end. Not the best way to get your point across.

The apology at the end is the best part of the article. It`s the way the time is now- it is so hard to put a finger to what we feel, and when we do the last thing we need is for it to be an unacceptable standard of language. Glad you wrote. Freedom Fries had to be the ultimate ridicule of everything great about America.

I read an article in this issue of the Economist, about Iraqis bracing for war: Looking at the ancient structures, passing by palaces and wondering why it has to go. I had to stop and think about Iraq- something I have been trying so hard not to do. I had hardly come to terms with the loss of about 3,000 and more innocent lives in Afghanistan, how could I even begin to justify this? Talk of war and terrorism is so dehumanizing that deaths by mistake are so dispensable. My concern is what if it doesn`t stop here? What if Afghanistan is shelved. What if Pakistan faces more terrorism?

All this is so far from American classrooms that only look at scales of ``most politically unstable nation`` and ``most corrupt nation`` scales and rejoice over statistical clichés. And Professors who should know better, glorify America’s power to liberate, and all the costs being worth it.

I`m just sick to my stomach.


Aisha Sarwari

The Bush administration is now hellbent on war, they know full well that a withdrawal after all that massive military build up will furhter strain their economy, whereas the war will be an economice bonanza, all that oil in Iraq at their disposal, certainly an opportunity not to be missed. To hell with the Iraqi people, to hell with the UN credibility, lets do it now. Bush is a maniac, or maybe a psychopath, and his poodle Blair aint any better, the duo is now going to start a war in a couple of days which will kill thousands of innocent people: the objective to liberate them from Saddam`s stranglehold. And Saddam`s refusal to step down will only provide another excuse to them. Lets say a prayer for the Iraqi people.

freedom fries IS very lame..I agree..but then this is bush we`re talking about... come on, how can you expect sense from that a$$hole? And yes, your article is a bit incoherent but it gets the message across.